IRC log of sparql on 2011-04-26

Timestamps are in UTC.

13:55:40 [RRSAgent]
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13:55:40 [RRSAgent]
logging to
13:55:49 [SteveH_]
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13:55:53 [AxelPolleres]
Zakim, this will be SPARQL
13:55:53 [Zakim]
ok, AxelPolleres; I see SW_(SPARQL)10:00AM scheduled to start in 5 minutes
13:55:59 [bglimm]
ok, then I'll dial in... no Easter holidays...
13:56:01 [AxelPolleres]
13:56:08 [AxelPolleres]
chair: Axel Polleres
13:57:07 [AxelPolleres]
regrets: Alex
13:57:21 [Zakim]
SW_(SPARQL)10:00AM has now started
13:57:30 [Zakim]
+ +44.186.528.aaaa
13:57:31 [cbuilara]
cbuilara has joined #sparql
13:57:39 [bglimm]
Zakim, +44.186.528.aaaa is me
13:57:39 [Zakim]
+bglimm; got it
13:57:40 [Zakim]
13:57:50 [AxelPolleres]
agendum: document status
13:57:55 [Zakim]
13:57:59 [Zakim]
13:58:01 [SteveH]
Zakim, who's omn the phone?
13:58:01 [Zakim]
I don't understand your question, SteveH.
13:58:06 [SteveH]
Zakim, who's omn the phone?
13:58:06 [Zakim]
I don't understand your question, SteveH.
13:58:06 [cbuilara]
zakim, IPcaller is me
13:58:07 [Zakim]
+cbuilara; got it
13:58:17 [SteveH]
Zakim, who's on the phone?
13:58:17 [Zakim]
On the phone I see bglimm, ??P3, kasei, cbuilara
13:58:24 [Zakim]
13:58:46 [MattPerry]
MattPerry has joined #sparql
13:58:50 [Zakim]
13:58:54 [SteveH]
Zakim, ??P3 is me
13:58:54 [Zakim]
+SteveH; got it
13:59:09 [Zakim]
13:59:13 [AxelPolleres]
Zaki, add agendum: Document status
13:59:30 [AxelPolleres]
Zakim, add agendum: Document status
13:59:30 [Zakim]
I don't understand 'add agendum: Document status', AxelPolleres
13:59:32 [Zakim]
14:01:04 [Zakim]
14:01:06 [Zakim]
14:01:16 [chimezie]
chimezie has joined #sparql
14:01:21 [AxelPolleres]
tried to quickly paste things we shall discuss on the wiki:
14:01:28 [AxelPolleres]
14:01:49 [AxelPolleres]
Zakim, who is on the phone?
14:01:49 [Zakim]
On the phone I see bglimm, kasei, cbuilara, SteveH, AxelPolleres, MattPerry, OlivierCorby, pgearon
14:02:04 [AxelPolleres]
let's give it another minute...
14:02:26 [OlivierCorby]
pass code is rejected when calling number in France (
14:03:31 [Zakim]
14:03:37 [AndyS]
zakim, ??P14 is me
14:03:37 [Zakim]
+AndyS; got it
14:03:47 [chimezie]
chimezie has joined #sparql
14:04:03 [bglimm]
Zakim, mute me
14:04:03 [Zakim]
bglimm should now be muted
14:04:09 [chimezie]
Zakim, passcode?
14:04:09 [Zakim]
the conference code is 77277 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+ tel:+44.203.318.0479), chimezie
14:04:12 [kasei]
who is scribing?
14:04:31 [kasei]
I can
14:04:36 [kasei]
scribenick: kasei
14:04:40 [Zakim]
+ +1.216.368.aabb
14:04:49 [AxelPolleres]
scribe: Greg Williams
14:04:49 [chimezie]
Zakim, +1.216.368.aabb is me
14:04:49 [Zakim]
+chimezie; got it
14:04:55 [AxelPolleres]
topic: admin
14:05:16 [chimezie]
Zakim, mute me
14:05:16 [Zakim]
chimezie should now be muted
14:05:21 [AxelPolleres]
PROPOSED: approve minutes form last time
14:05:44 [AxelPolleres]
RESOLVED: approve minutes form last time
14:06:15 [AxelPolleres]
topic: document status
14:06:45 [kasei]
AxelPolleres: plan is to go to last call for many of the documents next week.
14:06:59 [kasei]
... query, update, service description, graph store protocol, entailment, federated query
14:07:25 [kasei]
... status of query?
14:07:38 [AxelPolleres]
14:07:38 [AndyS]
14:07:40 [kasei]
SteveH: done all the major things. still some tidying up to be done.
14:07:45 [kasei]
... in reasonable shape.
14:08:03 [kasei]
AndyS: I've got comments form Birte to deal with and one comment that needs a reply.
14:08:13 [bglimm]
q+ to ask about (NOT) EXISTS FILTER
14:08:15 [kasei]
AxelPolleres: is there anything preventing LC next week? is that realistic?
14:08:39 [kasei]
AndyS: realistic to make a formal decision. there may be some things outstanding.
14:08:54 [kasei]
AxelPolleres: probably need some final approval from reviewers.
14:08:54 [bglimm]
Zakim, unmute me
14:08:54 [Zakim]
bglimm should no longer be muted
14:09:21 [kasei]
bglimm: I had a look at the algebra section and still not happy with (NOT) EXISTS
14:09:30 [kasei]
... I can't see how that is supposed to work.
14:09:54 [kasei]
AndyS: going to deal with Birte's comment.
14:10:31 [AxelPolleres]
Query summary: Birte's comments and one public comment open ?
14:10:38 [Zakim]
14:10:54 [bglimm]
Zakim, mute me
14:10:54 [Zakim]
bglimm should now be muted
14:10:56 [kasei]
AxelPolleres: let us know if there are any other issues. otherwise will hopefully move forward next time.
14:10:58 [AxelPolleres]
14:11:04 [AxelPolleres]
ack birte
14:11:09 [bglimm]
Zakim, ack me
14:11:09 [Zakim]
unmuting bglimm
14:11:11 [Zakim]
bglimm, you wanted to ask about (NOT) EXISTS FILTER
14:11:11 [AxelPolleres]
ack bglimm
14:11:12 [Zakim]
I see no one on the speaker queue
14:11:20 [AndyS]
bglimm, what is "expire"? s//exists/?
14:11:22 [kasei]
AxelPolleres: status of update document?
14:11:24 [bglimm]
Zakim, mute me
14:11:26 [Zakim]
bglimm should now be muted
14:11:42 [pgearon]
There seem to be a couple of open questions, particularly around the formal semantics
14:11:43 [AxelPolleres]
topic: update
14:11:47 [AxelPolleres]
14:12:09 [kasei]
pgearon: most of the questions are around the formal semantics.
14:12:17 [kasei]
... all outstanding editorial tasks have been done.
14:12:29 [kasei]
... a couple of questions have come up lately that haven't been addressed.
14:12:43 [kasei]
AxelPolleres: just sent a mail trying to address greg's comments.
14:12:51 [kasei]
... still a list of open things.
14:13:13 [kasei]
... open issue: semantics of USING concerning blank nodes.
14:13:26 [kasei]
... up to Paul and myself to make a proposal.
14:13:29 [kasei]
... this is the most critical.
14:13:44 [kasei]
... other things are mostly editorial.
14:13:50 [AndyS]
And the descriptive text of USING ("identicial" is not acceptable)
14:13:53 [kasei]
... no "glue" between syntax and semantics yet.
14:14:15 [kasei]
... we don't have semantics of multi-operation requests.
14:14:34 [kasei]
... hope to address this by next week, but not realistic to make a decision yet.
14:14:42 [LeeF]
q+ to note publication moratorium
14:15:07 [LeeF]
We need to have our publication requests ready by May 6, or else we slip until late May -
14:15:10 [LeeF]
ack me
14:15:10 [Zakim]
LeeF, you wanted to note publication moratorium
14:15:36 [kasei]
kasei: mostly happy with the response to my comments and how they are being handled.
14:15:38 [LeeF]
It's a W3C publication moratorium surrounding the W3C AC Meeting
14:15:44 [AndyS]
14:16:09 [kasei]
AxelPolleres: will try to have things ready by Friday, and hope Andy and Greg can have another look.
14:16:24 [LeeF]
I think fully ready :-(
14:16:27 [kasei]
AndyS: we've got to get through the pubrules. Does this moratorium mean it has to be ready by then? Or just asked for publication by then?
14:16:28 [LeeF]
But sandro would know best
14:16:42 [LeeF]
I'll see if I cna ask someone else while we continue the call
14:16:57 [kasei]
AndyS: might be able to turn this into a virtue. there's still the issue with the RDF WG about changes in turtle.
14:17:06 [kasei]
... if we want to keep turtle and sparql aligned, then more time would be good.
14:17:17 [AndyS]
ack me
14:17:20 [kasei]
... have asked that they address the issue, but haven't seen it on an agenda yet.
14:17:22 [LeeF]
I will bring that up at CG call ASAP as well (again)
14:17:36 [kasei]
AxelPolleres: are there any other issues from the RDF WG that will affect our work?
14:17:49 [LeeF]
AndyS, if there's a statement of intent, do we have any other changes we'd need to make?
14:17:51 [kasei]
AndyS: worst outcome would be a long discussion for each difference.
14:18:16 [kasei]
AxelPolleres: should try to get as ready as we can by next week.
14:18:26 [kasei]
... will clarify with sandro what is needed by the 6th.
14:18:46 [AxelPolleres]
ACTION: axel to check with sandro about what's needed for publication by May 6th
14:18:46 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-443 - Check with sandro about what's needed for publication by May 6th [on Axel Polleres - due 2011-05-03].
14:19:04 [kasei]
AxelPolleres: will ask editors to check pubrules by next time.
14:19:44 [kasei]
... if you think it's realistic ot be ready by next week, is it possible to have text that can be reviewed by the end of this week?
14:19:50 [LeeF]
14:19:57 [kasei]
AndyS: no. 4-day weekend in UK this week.
14:21:10 [kasei]
AxelPolleres: I can propose text for open update issues, but need help for checkign pubrules, etc.
14:21:17 [kasei]
pgearon: I can commit to helping with that.
14:21:34 [AxelPolleres]
paul and axel to chat later on skype
14:21:52 [kasei]
AxelPolleres: status of service description?
14:22:11 [bglimm]
I wrote an email on that
14:22:55 [AxelPolleres]
14:23:25 [bglimm]
Zakim, unmute me
14:23:25 [Zakim]
bglimm should no longer be muted
14:23:41 [kasei]
14:23:57 [kasei]
bglimm: I suggested one way of handling the entailment issue
14:24:11 [kasei]
14:24:39 [kasei]
bglimm: at the moment, you can specify a default regime and a regime per named graph.
14:24:54 [kasei]
... suggested that domain of the entailment regime property should be Graph, not NamedGraph.
14:25:17 [kasei]
... also, right now Profiles are attached to graphs.
14:25:18 [AxelPolleres]
a) renaming graph property, b) profiles assigned to service not to graphs
14:27:26 [AxelPolleres]
as for b) greg's sees a problem, possibly every profile attached to any regime.
14:27:51 [kasei]
AxelPolleres: didn't we already agree that entailment regimes are assigned to graphs?
14:28:18 [kasei]
bglimm: yes, but if you support owl direct semantics and rdf-based semantics, saying "OWL RL" isn't enough, because RL can be used in either Direct or RDF-based semantics.
14:28:29 [kasei]
... does RL apply to both semantics if you calim RL is a supported profile?
14:28:40 [kasei]
... at the moment, there's no way of distinguishing.
14:28:57 [kasei]
... the semantics and the profile belong together.
14:29:36 [kasei]
... it's a bit weird to assign the profile to graphs. a graph doesn't "have a profile".
14:30:02 [kasei]
AxelPolleres: is there any action here? does anybody else have a strong opinion?
14:30:13 [kasei]
bglimm: taking it to email is probably best.
14:30:15 [chimezie]
it might help (me) if we had an example, perhaps
14:30:24 [AxelPolleres]
Birte and Greg to discuss a path forward
14:30:36 [bglimm]
I added an example (of an SD) to my email
14:30:55 [AxelPolleres]
ACTION: Birte to report on outcome of entailment and SD discussion on email
14:30:55 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-444 - Report on outcome of entailment and SD discussion on email [on Birte Glimm - due 2011-05-03].
14:30:56 [chimezie]
ok, thanks (I missed that)
14:31:18 [kasei]
AxelPolleres: status of graph store protocol?
14:31:21 [chimezie]
Zakim, unmute me
14:31:21 [Zakim]
chimezie should no longer be muted
14:31:31 [kasei]
chimezie: no substantive outstanding issues.
14:31:40 [kasei]
... just sent out a draft response to KjetilK.
14:31:53 [kasei]
... nothing else other than editorial thigns like pubrules checks
14:32:02 [kasei]
... ready for LC by next week.
14:32:23 [AxelPolleres]
ACTION: chime to check pubrules on graph protocol doc
14:32:23 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-445 - Check pubrules on graph protocol doc [on Chimezie Ogbuji - due 2011-05-03].
14:32:45 [AxelPolleres]
ACTION: greg to check pubrules for SD
14:32:45 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-446 - Check pubrules for SD [on Gregory Williams - due 2011-05-03].
14:33:06 [AxelPolleres]
ACTION: paul to do pubrules check for Updates
14:33:06 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-447 - Do pubrules check for Updates [on Paul Gearon - due 2011-05-03].
14:33:37 [AxelPolleres]
ACTION: steve to check pubrules on query
14:33:37 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-448 - Check pubrules on query [on Steve Harris - due 2011-05-03].
14:33:43 [kasei]
AxelPolleres: status of entailment?
14:33:46 [bglimm]
wiki page for that:
14:33:47 [bglimm]
Zakim, unmute me
14:33:47 [Zakim]
bglimm was not muted, bglimm
14:34:01 [kasei]
bglimm: still waiting for replies. mainly editorial issues.
14:34:24 [kasei]
... could take silence as agreement.
14:34:48 [kasei]
AxelPolleres: I suggest you try one more time. Take no response by the end of the week as agreement.
14:35:04 [AxelPolleres]
ACTION: Birte to ping jeff one more time to ask for confirmaiton of rewordings, otherwise takes silence as agreement
14:35:05 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-449 - Ping jeff one more time to ask for confirmaiton of rewordings, otherwise takes silence as agreement [on Birte Glimm - due 2011-05-03].
14:35:11 [kasei]
AxelPolleres: anything else open?
14:35:15 [kasei]
bglimm: no, that's the last thing.
14:35:30 [kasei]
AxelPolleres: one small thing from sandro about the RIF in RDF document.
14:35:45 [kasei]
... I assume it can wait until after LC. Just need that published before rec.
14:35:52 [kasei]
... not a roadblock to LC.
14:36:15 [kasei]
bglimm: issue on property paths and entailment.
14:36:45 [kasei]
AxelPolleres: what's written in the entailment doc is that entailment works at the BGP level (only extension point we have)
14:36:58 [kasei]
... property paths are not affected by entailment regime.
14:37:11 [kasei]
... property paths are first simplified, then matched.
14:37:22 [kasei]
... arbitrary/zero length paths are different.
14:37:42 [kasei]
... some cases where you would expect entailment to work on arbitrary paths.
14:38:11 [kasei]
... worried that we've locked ourselves in on any future entailment work working at this level.
14:38:24 [AndyS]
Arbitrary length paths have cardinality=1 makes entailment future easier. (speculation)
14:38:32 [kasei]
bglimm: could say that for queries that can't be simplified into BGPs, behaviour is not defined. leaves open for future versions.
14:38:54 [kasei]
... if you use entailment, only some property paths are guaranteed to work. others aren't specified.
14:39:22 [kasei]
AxelPolleres: is this section informative?
14:39:31 [kasei]
bglimm: yes.
14:39:59 [kasei]
AxelPolleres: would feel better if that was made clearer.
14:40:17 [kasei]
bglimm: I can do that today.
14:40:46 [kasei]
AxelPolleres: would it make sense to add a statement that future work may address this issue?
14:41:03 [kasei]
AndyS: how can you make it clearer than "informative" in the title?
14:41:11 [LeeF]
14:41:20 [kasei]
14:41:22 [LeeF]
...or unicode snowmen
14:41:36 [kasei]
AxelPolleres: want to point out the problematic cases.
14:42:05 [Zakim]
14:43:05 [AxelPolleres]
informative probably enough, but admittedle not entirely happy with it.
14:43:19 [AxelPolleres]
take that back to email.
14:43:28 [Zakim]
14:43:34 [bglimm]
Sorry I dropped out
14:44:07 [kasei]
bglimm: will try to make the text clearer.
14:44:28 [AxelPolleres]
axel: show what's the limits would be good
14:44:32 [kasei]
AxelPolleres: status of federated query?
14:44:39 [bglimm]
Zakim, mute me
14:44:39 [Zakim]
bglimm should now be muted
14:44:59 [kasei]
cbuilara: waiting for comments.
14:45:12 [LeeF]
I'm hoping to get my comments by tonight
14:45:18 [kasei]
AxelPolleres: some questions on BINDINGS section?
14:45:45 [kasei]
... not sure if I'll be able to look through it, but will check what cbuilara and LeeF discuss.
14:45:50 [kasei]
... apart form that, ready for LC?
14:46:05 [kasei]
cbuilara: yes. I've applied previous comments.
14:46:25 [kasei]
... depends on comments being waited on, but think it can go.
14:46:38 [AxelPolleres]
ACTION: carlos to check pubrules
14:46:38 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-450 - Check pubrules [on Carlos Buil Aranda - due 2011-05-03].
14:47:02 [bglimm]
14:47:12 [AxelPolleres]
ACTION: birte to check pubrules on entailment
14:47:12 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-451 - Check pubrules on entailment [on Birte Glimm - due 2011-05-03].
14:47:46 [kasei]
AxelPolleres: that's it for the documents.
14:48:21 [kasei]
... do we have dataset-merge definition still in query?
14:48:23 [kasei]
AndyS: yes.
14:48:42 [kasei]
AxelPolleres: where do we go with that? I put in an alternative version in the update document.
14:48:48 [kasei]
... not sure if that addresses Peter's comment.
14:49:08 [kasei]
AndyS: I did some editing, new wording.
14:49:28 [kasei]
... nervous about describing a dataset as a bunch of slots.
14:50:16 [kasei]
AxelPolleres: is the RDF WG going to take that up?
14:50:40 [kasei]
AndyS: don't know. It's there because if there's going to be a distinguished version of dataset-merge, makes sense to have it next to the definition for dataset.
14:51:03 [kasei]
AndyS: don't have a picture of what the possible outcomes are.
14:51:46 [kasei]
AxelPolleres: should we leave it in optionally? at risk?
14:52:05 [kasei]
AndyS: just leave it in.
14:52:27 [kasei]
... does update need a merge?
14:52:45 [kasei]
AxelPolleres: not really sure. worried if we describe the LOAD operation in terms of dataset UNION, have to say something extra about blank nodes.
14:52:53 [kasei]
... if I use dataset merge, then I don't.
14:53:08 [kasei]
AndyS: LOAD is only on a single graph. so renaming can happen when the graph is read. it's coming from syntax.
14:53:50 [kasei]
AxelPolleres: if we don't need union, would also work for me.
14:54:34 [kasei]
AndyS: the only problem is if the syntax introduces bnodes with clashing labels.
14:54:42 [kasei]
... somewhere it should say "don't".
14:55:10 [kasei]
AxelPolleres: probably don't need merge in update.
14:55:41 [kasei]
AxelPolleres: don't know how to keep the blank nodes adopting the definitions from query.
14:55:47 [kasei]
... so came up with the skolemization text.
14:56:32 [kasei]
AxelPolleres: we'll get to BINDING tests next week.
14:56:52 [kasei]
cbuilara: did tests for BINDINGS only, not yet SERVICE.
14:57:10 [kasei]
AxelPolleres: I had an open action for federated tests. If you could suggest something, that would be great.
14:58:05 [AxelPolleres]
ACTION: Carlos to think about Federated query testing (essentially helping on ACTION-274)
14:58:05 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-452 - Think about Federated query testing (essentially helping on ACTION-274) [on Carlos Buil Aranda - due 2011-05-03].
14:58:38 [chimezie]
14:58:41 [Zakim]
14:58:41 [bglimm]
14:58:42 [MattPerry]
14:58:44 [MattPerry]
14:58:45 [Zakim]
14:58:45 [Zakim]
14:58:47 [Zakim]
14:58:48 [Zakim]
14:58:55 [Zakim]
14:58:56 [Zakim]
14:58:58 [Zakim]
14:59:02 [Zakim]
14:59:04 [AxelPolleres]
rrsagent, make records public
14:59:14 [Zakim]
14:59:14 [AxelPolleres]
greg, will you take care of publishing the minutes?
14:59:22 [Zakim]
14:59:23 [Zakim]
SW_(SPARQL)10:00AM has ended
14:59:25 [Zakim]
Attendees were bglimm, kasei, cbuilara, SteveH, AxelPolleres, MattPerry, pgearon, OlivierCorby, AndyS, chimezie, Lee_Feigenbaum
15:01:16 [LeeF]
thanks, AxelPolleres
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