13:45:03 RRSAgent has joined #lld 13:45:03 logging to http://www.w3.org/2011/04/21-lld-irc 13:45:13 rrsagent, bookmark 13:45:13 See http://www.w3.org/2011/04/21-lld-irc#T13-45-13 13:45:20 zakim, this will be lld 13:45:20 ok, antoine; I see INC_LLDXG()10:00AM scheduled to start in 15 minutes 13:45:36 Meeting: LLD XG 13:45:43 Chair: Antoine 13:46:16 Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xg-lld/2011Apr/0047.html 13:46:55 Previous: 2011-04-14 http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/minutes/2011/04/14-lld-minutes.html 13:51:07 kcoyle has joined #lld 13:53:20 Regrets: Gordon, Alexander, William, Kevin, Ray 13:53:45 rrsagent, please make record public 13:54:10 emma has joined #lld 13:54:26 monica has joined #lld 13:54:59 INC_LLDXG()10:00AM has now started 13:55:06 +[IPcaller] 13:55:10 rrsagent, please draft minutes 13:55:10 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/04/21-lld-minutes.html antoine 13:55:17 zakim, IPcaller is me 13:55:17 +antoine; got it 13:55:50 Scribe: Monica 13:55:56 Scribenick: monica 13:56:04 rrsagent, please draft minutes 13:56:04 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/04/21-lld-minutes.html antoine 13:57:00 + +44.194.346.aaaa 13:57:02 TomB has joined #lld 13:57:13 zakim, aaaa is monica 13:57:13 +monica; got it 13:57:34 +??P2 13:57:45 +Tom_Baker (was ??P2) 13:58:02 +??P3 13:58:14 zakim, ??P3 is kcoyle 13:58:14 +kcoyle; got it 13:58:16 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/04/21-lld-minutes.html TomB 13:58:33 pmurray has joined #lld 13:59:27 + +1.404.892.aabb 13:59:41 zakim, aabb is pmurray 13:59:41 +pmurray; got it 14:00:39 jodi has joined #LLD 14:00:43 kai has joined #lld 14:00:47 +rsinger 14:00:50 rsinger has joined #lld 14:00:56 +Jodi 14:01:24 zakim, please mute me 14:01:24 Jodi should now be muted 14:01:29 zakim, who is here? 14:01:29 On the phone I see antoine, monica, Tom_Baker, kcoyle, pmurray (muted), rsinger, Jodi (muted) 14:01:36 ok :) 14:01:39 +[IPcaller] 14:01:42 jneubert has joined #lld 14:01:54 smarter than me, for sure 14:01:55 +jeff_ 14:01:59 + +49.4.aacc 14:02:01 zakim, IPcaller is kai 14:02:01 +kai; got it 14:02:23 zakim, mute me 14:02:23 jeff_ should now be muted 14:02:23 zakim, aacc is jneubert 14:02:24 +jneubert; got it 14:02:55 + +1.330.310.aadd 14:03:12 zakim, aadd is marcia 14:03:12 +marcia; got it 14:03:41 marcia has joined #lld 14:04:05 zakim mute me 14:04:19 zakim, who is on the call? 14:04:19 On the phone I see antoine, monica, Tom_Baker, kcoyle, pmurray (muted), rsinger, Jodi (muted), kai, jeff_ (muted), jneubert (muted), marcia 14:04:22 TomB: i note you noting the benefits doc 14:05:04 TOPIC admin 14:05:09 TomB: I guess you tried refreshing already? 14:05:14 somewhere other than the "developers" section? 14:05:22 PROPOSED: To accept http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/minutes/2011/04/14-lld-minutes.html 14:05:32 --ACCEPTED 14:05:44 +[LC] 14:05:45 zakim, [LC] is edsu 14:05:45 +edsu; got it 14:05:54 schedule of telcons 14:06:06 http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/wiki/Telecons 14:06:32 +jeff_.a 14:06:35 antoine - any comments? 14:06:51 +1 would have to send regrets otherwise :-) 14:07:07 zakim, jeff_.a is michaelp 14:07:07 +michaelp; got it 14:07:21 zakim, mute me 14:07:21 marcia should now be muted 14:07:29 @rsinger - exited from the document - is there a URL for just "viewing" the document? 14:07:58 + +33.1.44.78.aaee 14:07:58 TomB: i don't think you can just view it -- i'm not editing now, so feel free to go back in 14:08:05 zakim, aaee is me 14:08:05 +emma; got it 14:08:32 @rsinger - gotta follow the discussion now... - will look at it after the call 14:09:10 decided telcon on 28 is cancelled 14:09:38 .. Harry HAlpin to introduce the newly-launched community groups at W3C 14:10:13 ...will enable inclusion with wider scope of participants 14:10:33 ...e.g. library community 14:10:48 ...we should have a couple of weeks to preprare 14:11:02 ...any questions? now or on list 14:11:19 ...we will know more once Harry has presented 14:11:21 CaptSolo has joined #lld 14:11:29 -monica 14:11:52 Asia Pacific Telecon on April 28th 14:12:06 I can pick up scribing. 14:12:12 antoine: you got all echoey 14:12:13 yes, there's echo here now too 14:12:15 yes, getting echo from you 14:12:22 now it's gone 14:12:23 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xg-lld/2011Apr/0044.html - Asia-Pacific call 14:12:26 +monica 14:12:56 -monica 14:12:57 TomB: Asia Pacific telecon will be on 27th / 28th april 14:13:22 ... 13 people expected 14:13:50 ... agenda will be simple : sections of the report, 14:14:16 Here's the fixed time for the telcon: http://timeanddate.com/worldclock/fixedtime.html?msg=LLD&iso=20110427T21&p1=224&ah=1 14:14:48 ... open discussion during at least 20 minutes 14:14:58 +monica 14:15:19 +??P33 14:15:24 zakim, ??P33 is me 14:15:24 +uldis; got it 14:15:41 ... please consider attending even if the ime isn't convenient, bridge is reserved for 20 or 25 people 14:15:48 s/ime/time 14:16:39 TOPIC FINAL REPORT 14:17:02 CTION: Digikim to update the transcluded version of the report by Wed Apr 13 [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/minutes/2011/04/07-lld-minutes.html#action06] 14:17:09 AntoineL Kim not here today 14:17:14 ACtion --continues 14:17:30 s/CTION/ACTION/ 14:17:44 (Kim just emailed us to say that the transclusion doesn't make sense yet, and with regrets.) 14:18:00 ...Benefits http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/wiki/Draft_Benefits 14:18:15 ACTION: Cluster owners to check the bullet-point list in http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/wiki/Draft_Benefits reflects their understanding and covers relevant points [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/minutes/2011/03/31-lld-minutes.html#action04] 14:18:28 michaelp has joined #lld 14:18:28 Antoine there has only been one comment 14:18:29 i haven't 14:18:36 me neither 14:18:36 ...has there been any other feedback? 14:18:40 Ross - no 14:19:08 +1 to drop the action 14:19:09 +1 14:19:11 +1 14:19:12 +1 -- action completed. 14:19:17 i mean, if they haven't responded yet 14:19:19 ... 14:19:22 ACTION CLOSED 14:19:36 ACTION: Cluster owners to check the bullet-point list in http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/wiki/Draft_Benefits reflects their understanding and covers relevant points [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/minutes/2011/03/31-lld-minutes.html#action04] 14:19:40 --CLOSED 14:20:07 --DONE 14:20:22 -- 14:20:32 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/04/21-lld-minutes.html emma 14:20:33 ACTION: edsu, emma, rsinger to create narrative text and add to bullet-points [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/minutes/2011/03/31-lld-minutes.html#action05] 14:20:43 https://docs.google.com/document/d/1vtVG2qAIiLAivwCGdqwNXubrnBpaOPnK1ZKxxZAS8qk/edit?hl=en 14:20:55 ross this has been started on the google doc 14:21:09 any suggestions for how to boil down bullet points? 14:21:25 ...this is all open for editing, but coming along 14:21:29 q+ to ask about the status of http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xg-lld/2011Apr/0044.html 14:21:39 q+ to ask about the status of http://piratepad.net/zsLh4nM3Pg 14:21:42 ...sorry 14:22:01 zakim, ack TomB 14:22:01 TomB, you wanted to ask about the status of http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xg-lld/2011Apr/0044.html and to ask about the status of http://piratepad.net/zsLh4nM3Pg 14:22:04 I see no one on the speaker queue 14:22:19 Tom has this been copied over to the wiki? 14:22:22 Ed yes 14:23:01 Ed we only need one more discussion to conclude the deliverable 14:23:15 Regrets+ Kim, Daniel 14:23:29 Tom as a liaison from issues group - we think there are some issues that need to be introduced earlier 14:23:41 Ed The double-edged sword of linked data? 14:23:54 rrsagent, please draft minutes 14:23:54 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/04/21-lld-minutes.html emma 14:23:59 Ed To put out call on the mailing list 14:24:03 rsinger++ 14:24:11 s/Ed/Ross/ 14:24:11 zakim, unmute me 14:24:11 jeff_ should no longer be muted 14:24:11 Antoine Relevant technologies 14:24:21 ACTION: Jeff to create a wiki page on "Relevant Technology" and link it to the report outline [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2011/04/14-lld-minutes.html#action05] --DONE 14:24:26 --DONE 14:24:42 q+ 14:24:56 Jeff library-specific technologies - we might be better able to write tools if we knew our idioms better 14:25:14 zakim, ack kcoyle 14:25:14 I see no one on the speaker queue 14:25:43 Karen: what tools are we talking about - tools for programmers, metadata developers (e.g. metadata registry) 14:26:07 Discussion at http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-lld/2011Apr/0072.html 14:26:19 ...needs to address those 3 different activities 14:26:50 ...by breaking it out this way it will point out where the gaps are 14:27:06 ...Karen offers help with this if needed 14:27:14 Antoine: notes good progress on this, thanks 14:27:28 ACTION: Alex, Jeff, Martin, MichaelP elaborate on general purpose IT architecture for dealing with linked data with caching feature (short sketch for final report) [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/minutes/2010/10/24-lld-minutes.html#action04] 14:27:50 Antoine: has the issue been addressed? 14:28:22 Jeff: yes e.g. caching difficult to layer in 14:28:31 ...but software layering is reflected 14:28:35 ACTION: Alex, Jeff, Martin, MichaelP elaborate on general purpose IT architecture for dealing with linked data with caching feature (short sketch for final report) [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/minutes/2010/10/24-lld-minutes.html#action04] 14:28:37 --DONE 14:28:51 zakim, mute me 14:28:51 jeff_ should now be muted 14:29:04 Note on potential lld web services (Kevin, Joachim) http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/wiki/Web_services_on_LLD 14:29:16 Antoine: this was on an action on Joachim to report on progress 14:29:34 Joachim: we have finished that action, have prepared the wiki page 14:30:07 ...not so easy for people not acquainted with ?? to use RDF 14:30:38 ...in lots of situation it is not so easy to provide technology 14:31:07 ...example of use cases authority data 14:31:25 ...similar services would support retrieval 14:32:18 Antoine: can this wiki page fit into the developing technologies section? 14:32:39 ...is it going in the same direction which Karen has described - group into categories 14:32:48 +1 14:33:02 ...could Joachim input into the categories 14:33:17 +1 to boil down 14:33:21 joachim: currently too long, would need to be boiled down 14:33:56 ...on holiday for 2 weeks, difficult to take the action to co-ordinate 14:34:10 Antoine: could Kevin do it? 14:34:37 ...no formal action recorded until we ask Kevin (Joachim to ask him) 14:34:53 q+ to ask if we skipped the ACTION: Gordon and Karen, under ISSUES 14:35:00 TOPIC Housecleaning 14:35:03 Antoine: skip 14:35:09 ...due ot time constraints 14:35:25 http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/wiki/Draft_recommendations_page 14:35:25 TOPIC REQUIREMENTS AND ISSUES 14:35:30 Karen: 14:35:53 zakim, who is making noise? 14:36:04 much better! :) 14:36:04 Jodi, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: kcoyle (99%) 14:36:17 ...we have two pages linking to each other - issues and recommendations 14:36:25 rrsagent, please draft minutes 14:36:25 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/04/21-lld-minutes.html antoine 14:36:33 ...the two pages are important because they become the results 14:36:33 http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/wiki/Draft_issues_page 14:36:44 ...what we are saying is what needs to happen 14:37:05 ...in the group we have talked about posting individual (or small groups of related ones) 14:37:11 ...so that people can comment on it 14:37:36 ...an outline has already been written, on the wiki there is another level of detail 14:37:49 ...generally the recommendations and issues have been broken out into 3 groups 14:37:58 ...first group is managerial (education, costs) 14:38:29 ...second group - moving library world out of its silo into a future mindset of being collaborative 14:38:48 ...not just with cultural heritage but at least some input from general web community 14:39:02 ...third category - library standards and practices change 14:39:06 ...Any input? 14:39:06 q+ to ask about duplication of effort (Management) 14:39:12 very good 14:39:23 zakim, ack TomB 14:39:23 TomB, you wanted to ask if we skipped the ACTION: Gordon and Karen, under ISSUES 14:39:25 I see emma on the speaker queue 14:39:42 Tom: asking about teh action on Karen and Gordon 14:39:51 Karen: I need to check and look at it again 14:39:56 ...keep the action fo rnow 14:40:00 zakim, ack emma 14:40:00 emma, you wanted to ask about duplication of effort (Management) 14:40:02 I see no one on the speaker queue 14:40:07 s/fo rnow/for now/ 14:40:42 Emma: wondering if this is missing: issue of national libraries coordinating effort 14:41:03 ...is there a role to manage duplicates 14:41:42 Karen: there is wording on de-duplication but your point is about not duplicating the effort 14:41:59 emma: also need to consider the costs 14:42:04 http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/wiki/Draft_issues_page#Library_data_is_highly_redundant_but_lacks_global_identifiers_to_aid_in_de-duplication 14:42:13 ...that would be a management issue 14:42:33 There is mention in the recommendation about agreement on identifiers, which is a form of coordination. 14:42:47 Karen: that appears to be a co-ordination issue e.g. hwo to find out that software already exists, encourage open source etc 14:42:59 s/TOPIC admin/TOPIC: admin 14:43:08 ...also one thing we don't have here is something about discovery: of software, vocabularies Is this management? 14:43:15 http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/wiki/Draft_recommendations_page#Identify_vocabularies_that_are_needed_to_support_the_creation_and_use_of_LLD_.5BJS.5D 14:43:17 ...or third section 14:43:39 q+ discovery of vocabularies is perhaps related to the issue of "usage patterns" 14:43:49 ...is htis a high-level point? do all teh sharing so we don't duplicate effort? 14:43:55 s/teh/the/ 14:44:03 zakim, ack TomB 14:44:03 I see no one on the speaker queue 14:44:05 zakim, please mute me 14:44:05 emma should now be muted 14:44:17 Tom: the patterns will point to the vocabularies 14:44:27 s/htis/this 14:44:35 ...tehre is a danger in people just using search engines that focus on vocabularies 14:44:54 ...could lead people to use vocabularies in patterns that do not match usage patterns 14:45:13 ...I want to encourage discovery in the context of usage pattern, best practice 14:45:17 s/tehre /there 14:45:30 q+ how are people going to discover application profiles? 14:45:49 Zakim, most likely :) 14:45:49 I'm glad that smiley is there, edsu 14:45:51 ...there are different styles for documenting patterns and the community has no agreed way to document patterns 14:46:11 zakim, ack edsu 14:46:11 I see no one on the speaker queue 14:46:19 q+ ontology mapping 14:46:49 q? 14:46:55 Ed: we want to encourage good patterns 14:47:23 Tom: it is also important to put vocabularies in context e.g. used more in this community 14:47:53 s/good patterns/good patterns and findability of vocabularies 14:48:03 in a way, you have to be in contact with the community that uses a vocabulary in order to understand how it is used... 14:48:09 ...there is overlap and proliferation of vocabularies, alignment of vocabularies are needed otherwise new vocabularies will be used in the absence of mapping 14:48:25 Karen: vocabulary alignment is one of the recommendations 14:48:30 q? 14:48:31 Tom: make them stronger 14:48:38 Karen: agrees 14:48:41 Ed: agrees 14:48:47 q- ontology 14:48:51 ack me 14:48:51 q- mapping 14:48:57 q? 14:49:12 -uldis 14:49:25 Jeff: wanted to mention ontology mapping we can still be interoperable without prescribing you must do it this way 14:49:30 ontology mapping = alignments 14:49:53 Karen: experience in library world is for people to standardise and share rather than re-invent or grab random things 14:49:58 +1 14:50:03 zakim, mute me 14:50:03 jeff_ should now be muted 14:50:13 +1 14:50:20 ...more concerned about silos - we need to break out of these 14:50:34 note to self: make sure we use the phrase "RDF silo" in this section 14:50:52 http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/wiki/Draft_issues_page 14:51:14 q+ to ask about training/education 14:51:23 TomB: currently it's in http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/wiki/Draft_recommendations_page#Linking_by_use_of_vocabularies 14:51:25 Karen: to all please make sure that your issues are included here, if issues are not in the issues page they will not show up in the recommendations 14:51:39 ..check tehy are present and expressed as strongly sa you think is needed 14:51:49 s/tehy/they/ 14:51:56 s/sa/as/ 14:52:03 @jodi - ah, I thought it was there somewhere - thanks! 14:52:07 Antoine: we have use case owners to check the issues list 14:52:30 Karen: if people find anything missing, it is not too late to add to it 14:52:58 ...not exactly another round, but we need these two pages to be representing the best of our thinking on this topic 14:53:21 ...it is important that everyone in the group feels good about these pages 14:53:22 q+ to point out that this is why we want to push the individual points out to the mailing list one-by-one for comments 14:53:24 q+ to mention recommendations are likely to be most read after executive report 14:53:42 zakim, ack TomB 14:53:42 TomB, you wanted to point out that this is why we want to push the individual points out to the mailing list one-by-one for comments 14:53:45 I see emma, Jodi on the speaker queue 14:53:58 Tom: same point that Karen made, this is why we want to push out individual points in digestable pieces and get comments 14:54:10 Karen: which mailing list? 14:54:26 I think the community (public) list, too. 14:54:52 Antoine: would there be overwhelming response? 14:54:55 emma has joined #lld 14:55:00 Karen: does anyone feel that we should not? 14:55:08 But when we use the public list, we diminish the chance of someone saying "you didn't listen to me!" 14:55:12 q? 14:55:13 +1 for using community list 14:55:13 Antoine: if you wish to do it does not object 14:55:28 ack me 14:55:29 emma, you wanted to ask about training/education 14:55:35 zakim, please unmute me 14:55:35 Jodi should no longer be muted 14:55:36 zakim, ack emma 14:55:38 I see Jodi on the speaker queue 14:56:02 Emma: training, education there a number of things in the issues and recommendations 14:56:31 ...wondered if we should be more specific on who needs training in the library professionals. everyone? 14:56:40 ...just cataloguers? 14:56:50 ...very difficult to say 14:57:06 ...who does it make sense to train? 14:57:08 I think understanding the principles is important for everyone, but training about the mechanics isn't needed by everyone. 14:57:20 +1 good question on who needs to be trained 14:57:46 s/TOPIC FINAL REPORT/TOPIC: FINAL REPORT 14:57:53 Karen: right now we are at a point that we do not have much to show to people e.g. at the reference desk e.g. would not want to show them formats 14:58:06 "training the decision-makers" :-) 14:58:16 s/TOPIC REQUIREMENTS AND ISSUES/TOPIC: REQUIREMENTS AND ISSUES 14:58:24 Emma: everyone needs to understand benefits 14:58:28 rrsagent, please draft minutes 14:58:28 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/04/21-lld-minutes.html antoine 14:58:42 Karen: do we think training needs to be tailored to needs 14:58:44 zakim, ack Jodi 14:58:44 Jodi, you wanted to mention recommendations are likely to be most read after executive report 14:58:47 I see no one on the speaker queue 14:59:11 zakim, please mute me 14:59:11 Jodi should now be muted 14:59:18 Jodi: one reason we wanted comments on recommendations/issues was that 15:00:09 Jeff: by making each of the recommendations tweakable - should we make a 120 character limit? 15:00:10 lol (on mute) 15:00:12 s/TOPIC Housecleaning/Topic: housecleaning 15:00:14 laughter 15:00:26 @pmurray lol 15:00:34 monica: most likely to be read, after the executive report 15:00:42 Anotoine: any other business? 15:00:53 s/Anotoine/Antoine/ 15:01:06 bye! 15:01:06 -jeff_ 15:01:08 -edsu 15:01:08 -kcoyle 15:01:09 -pmurray 15:01:10 -michaelp 15:01:12 -marcia 15:01:13 jeff_ has left #lld 15:01:14 -rsinger 15:01:16 zakim, please list attendees 15:01:16 As of this point the attendees have been antoine, +44.194.346.aaaa, monica, Tom_Baker, kcoyle, +1.404.892.aabb, pmurray, rsinger, Jodi, jeff_, +49.4.aacc, kai, jneubert, 15:01:19 ... +1.330.310.aadd, marcia, edsu, michaelp, +33.1.44.78.aaee, emma, uldis 15:01:20 -Jodi 15:01:20 -kai 15:01:20 michaelp has left #lld 15:01:23 -jneubert 15:01:25 pmurray has left #lld 15:01:25 -Tom_Baker 15:01:44 rrsagent, please draft minutes 15:01:44 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/04/21-lld-minutes.html emma 15:02:47 s/TOPIC FINAL REPORT/Topic: Final Report 15:02:58 +??P16 15:03:00 s/Antoine/Antoine:/ 15:03:21 rrsagent, please draft minutes 15:03:21 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/04/21-lld-minutes.html antoine 15:03:36 s/ross/ross:/ 15:04:00 s/TOPIC FINAL REPORT/Topic\: final report 15:04:05 rrsagent, please draft minutes 15:04:05 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/04/21-lld-minutes.html antoine 15:04:18 Jodi has left #LLD 15:04:32 s/TOPIC FINAL REPORT/Topic\: final report/ 15:04:35 rrsagent, please draft minutes 15:04:35 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/04/21-lld-minutes.html antoine 15:04:38 s/antoine -/antoine:/ 15:05:06 s/Jeff/Jeff:/ 15:06:45 rrsagent, please draft minutes 15:06:45