21:28:30 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #media
21:28:30 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2011/04/18-media-irc
21:28:38 <janina> zakim, this will be 2119
21:28:40 <Zakim> ok, janina; I see Team_(html-a11y)21:30Z scheduled to start in 2 minutes
21:29:15 <Zakim> Team_(html-a11y)21:30Z has now started
21:29:22 <Zakim> +??P0
21:30:06 <Zakim> +Eric
21:30:44 <janina> zakim, ??P0 is janina
21:30:44 <Zakim> +janina; got it
21:30:50 <janina> Meeting: HTML-A11Y telecon
21:30:50 <janina> Chair:  Janina_Sajka
21:30:50 <janina> agenda: this
21:30:50 <janina> agenda+ Identify Scribe
21:30:50 <janina> agenda+ Issue-152 Multitrack http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/wiki/Media_Multitrack_Change_Proposals_Summary
21:30:51 <janina> agenda+ Text Formats Change Proposal
21:30:53 <janina> agenda+ Actions Review http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/track/actions/open
21:30:55 <janina> agenda+ Other Business?
21:30:57 <janina> agenda+ be done
21:31:43 <janina>  zakim, who's here?
21:31:43 <Zakim> On the phone I see janina, Eric
21:31:45 <Zakim> On IRC I see RRSAgent, Zakim, janina, Bob, Sean, oedipus_away, MikeSmith
21:31:58 <Zakim> +??P2
21:32:14 <Sean> Zakim, Eric is Sean
21:32:14 <Zakim> +Sean; got it
21:32:20 <janina> zakim, ??P2 is Bob_Lund
21:32:20 <Zakim> +Bob_Lund; got it
21:32:35 <judy> judy has joined #media
21:33:11 <Zakim> +Eric_Carlson
21:33:36 <Zakim> +Judy
21:34:48 <judy> zakim, who's here?
21:34:48 <Zakim> On the phone I see janina, Sean, Bob_Lund, Eric_Carlson, Judy
21:34:49 <Zakim> On IRC I see judy, RRSAgent, Zakim, janina, Bob, Sean, oedipus_away, MikeSmith
21:40:52 <Zakim> +[Microsoft]
21:41:23 <janina> zakim, [Microsoft] is Frank
21:41:23 <Zakim> +Frank; got it
21:41:34 <judy> zakim, who's here?
21:41:34 <Zakim> On the phone I see janina, Sean, Bob_Lund, Eric_Carlson, Judy, Frank
21:41:35 <Zakim> On IRC I see judy, RRSAgent, Zakim, janina, Bob, Sean, oedipus_away, MikeSmith
21:42:10 <janina> Janina reports no complaint to our desire to restore sourcing text tracks of any media type. These were unintentionally removed when WebSRT was removed from the spec. We will have a change proposal to restore this week.
21:42:17 <janina> scribe: janina
21:42:47 <janina> Sean: We seem to be on track coalescing on #4 with the changes we need. Not all points clear yet, though.
21:42:49 <judy> here is the link from the start of silvia's post summarizing status of issue 132
21:42:51 <judy> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-a11y/2011Apr/0142.html
21:43:22 <janina> Bob: I think it's important that we have simoultaneous video, though understand we may not want it in a single element.\
21:43:35 <janina> Bob: So multiple video tags?
21:44:03 <janina> Eric: Definitely possible. Seems a silly prescription though, if a user agent can support multiple videos in a single file.
21:44:17 <janina> Eric: Doesn't seem important to push just because Safari can.
21:44:42 <janina> Bob: So, if multiple video tracks in an inband, it's not clear to me how to display that.
21:44:59 <janina> Eric: You cannot do a single element. You need multiple elements and to use media fragments
21:45:27 <janina> Sean: We need to be able to discover how video is laid out, and we don't have that yet as far as I know.
21:45:44 <janina> Eric: Definitely the case
21:46:57 <frankolivier> frankolivier has joined #media
21:47:37 <janina> Sean: Are these always rectangular? Or can we have a traveling mat?
21:48:33 <janina> Sean: If we eventually want to support alpha blending, then we need to add that to css or adopt what video support has.
21:49:17 <janina> Eric: Can do with fragment urls, but there's a bigger issue. Not all compression support alpha.
21:50:07 <janina> Eric: So not something we can rely on CSS for, as it depends on compression.
21:52:02 <Sean> Its not an issue then to only have one video per element
21:52:21 <Sean> because transparency and composition of fragments should work
21:52:36 <judy> q+
21:52:52 <janina> Eric: Looking through last week's minutes, we didn't follow up whether Bob had any issues?
21:53:03 <janina> Bob: Don't think so, a question, though ...
21:53:22 <janina> Bob: So a separate video element for multiple tracks, that's OK
21:53:35 <janina> Bob: What about the case where there's not ml and we want to discover via js
21:54:14 <janina> Eric: Not currently at a computer, but there's an attrib 'exclusive' and believe you'd use that
21:54:42 <janina> Eric: That doesn't provide size or positioning
21:54:56 <janina> Sean: Also not sure media fragment can be constructed sufficiently from that data ...
21:55:07 <janina> Eric: Using index?
21:55:18 <janina> Sean: Not sure. Don't know fragment syntax sufficiently
21:55:19 <silvia> silvia has joined #media
21:55:42 <janina> Eric: You might be right. There may not be sufficient data.
21:56:38 <janina> Judy: Can we take up a tangent for the moment?
21:56:52 <janina> Judy: I'm trying to map our recent discussion against various usre requirements ...
21:57:16 <janina> Judy: Thinking of a video with audio content that's captioned, but also there's a sign translation stream
21:57:31 <janina> Judy: Covered, yes?
21:57:54 <janina> Sean: Yes, covered. The ml will be multiple elements, but these can come from a single resource.
21:58:06 <janina> Judy: OK, thanks.
21:58:32 <janina> Judy: I know some people following our discussion, who aren't directly participating in it, have been confused about this.
21:59:05 <janina> Sean: Yes, that's what I was getting at earlier--the picture in picture overlay for the signing track.
21:59:25 <janina> Judy: Also, one other ...
21:59:32 <Sean> Silvia are you joining by phone?
22:00:50 <janina> Judy: So my other question, how do we allow for someone who may need text descriptions?
22:01:34 <janina> Sean: We think the transcript may be best for deaf-blind user. But, if needed with the same timing, then you'd have a text description track and a text caption track, both enabled.
22:01:39 <Zakim> +silvia
22:03:10 <janina> Sean: Reviewing for Silvia, is there enough data to create media fragment URI via js
22:03:19 <janina> Eric: From single video element
22:03:47 <janina> Sean: So, if you want to play two, where you don't know them in advance, is there enough info in the 'exclusive' attribute to create the URI?
22:04:00 <janina> Silvia: Checking ...
22:04:15 <janina> Eric: Index won't work, because don't know whether there are other tracks
22:04:46 <judy> zakim, who's making noise?
22:04:59 <janina> Silvia: For fragment we need the name which is available via audio tracks list or video tracks list
22:05:01 <Zakim> judy, listening for 12 seconds I heard sound from the following: Bob_Lund (3%), Eric_Carlson (12%), silvia (84%)
22:05:23 <janina> Eric: Name is required? Not every track will have a way to list, nor are they necessarily unique.
22:05:32 <janina> Silvia: That's why I was asking for ID
22:06:29 <Sean> Sean has joined #media
22:06:53 <janina> Eric: Both mp4 and qt tracks guaranteed to have unique ID
22:07:05 <janina> Sean: And that ID can be used to construct the fragment URI?
22:07:08 <janina> Silvia: Yes.
22:07:34 <janina> Silvia: For slave tracks--which won't have more than one ID
22:08:10 <janina> Silvia: So a video with multiple audio dubs, we'd need also to look at getkind and getlang. From these you can decide and do getid
22:08:32 <janina> Eric: Why create different elements for inband audio?
22:08:48 <janina> Silvia: Just making something up where more info would be necessary.
22:09:19 <janina> Sean: Think one more would be needed, as elements aren't exclusive. To swithc on/off, would need to be in a slave element, no?
22:10:09 <janina> Sean: Can you switch on a subset? Or is it all or nothing?
22:10:19 <janina> Silvia: You can switch on a subset with fragments?
22:10:27 <janina> Sean: Mean js
22:12:12 <janina> Sean: So, can just switch on/;'off tracks
22:12:15 <janina> Silvia: Yes
22:12:29 <janina> Silvia: Yes also to retrieving data for fragments.
22:14:22 <janina> janina and judy expressing happiness at better multilingual support for pwds.
22:15:09 <janina> Eric: Any reply on the changes we need to your email, Silvia?
22:15:17 <janina> Silvia: Still hoping we get a positive response.
22:16:48 <janina> Silvia: Philip's reply had some thing about track list for Eric? May be what Ian is waiting on.
22:17:43 <janina> Eric: Safari won't stand in the way--we want interoperable behavior.
22:17:51 <janina> Silvia: Would be good for you to reply on that.
22:18:03 <janina> Silvia: What's the opinion on loop and autoplay.
22:18:10 <janina> Sean: Autoplay should go away.
22:18:27 <janina> Eric: Strongly disagree. If not attrib, then will always be done from js
22:18:35 <janina> Frank: Rationale?
22:19:08 <janina> Sean: To not bombard the user, if there were a way to querry ua in script.
22:19:24 <janina> Sean: It's dangerous unless ua can reliablbly disable autoplay.
22:20:47 <janina> Silvia: Should be setable in ua a11y settings.
22:21:37 <janina> judy: Not sure that disabling it everywhere is the optimal solution.
22:23:33 <janina> Sean: Mechanism for switching play from script would be the same.
22:23:48 <janina> Sean: Not sure the suggested solution works.
22:23:53 <janina> Silvia: So, step by step ...
22:24:15 <janina> Silvia: Think it's good to have an autplay attrib as it encourages its use rather than using js to achieve the same result, and
22:24:30 <janina> Silvia: Provides a mechanism for AT/UA to turn the behavior off.
22:24:51 <janina> Silvia: So we should also have this on the combined multitrack element.
22:25:22 <janina> Silvia: Suggesting the union be the state. So, if one slaves has autoplay, all slaves will be on autoplay. Though we could do the opposite?
22:25:34 <janina> Sean: Not given this sufficient thought yet to know the best approach.
22:26:09 <janina> Sean: Presumably autoplay is honored only if element is selected
22:26:47 <Zakim> -Eric_Carlson
22:26:53 <Zakim> +Eric_Carlson
22:27:15 <janina> Sean: Need to think through all the issues.
22:28:11 <janina> Sean: Wondering if all shouldn't be the preferred way.
22:28:21 <janina> Silvia: Yes, that's the alternative but more problematical for authoring.
22:30:56 <janina> Silvia: Autoplay only affects the beginning of presentation.
22:31:22 <janina> Silvia: Suggests another issue, though, where someone constructs a js where some autplay, and others don't
22:34:22 <janina> Silvia: Seems we need to address this thoroughly and resolve correct behavior.
22:36:13 <janina> Sean: Controller hasn't an autoplay; but autoplay on elements sets controller to playing--or not. So the last one creates the actual condition.
22:38:37 <janina> SSean: only the element that creates the controller can determin play or not
22:38:49 <janina> Silvia: Suggest more discussion on list
22:38:55 <janina> Eric: Not sure--need also ml
22:39:20 <janina> Sean: This is how I understand the proposal.
22:39:30 <janina> Silvia: Yes
22:40:40 <janina> Silvia: Different behavior for stand alone and combined
22:40:45 <janina> Sean: Dangerous
22:41:22 <janina> Eric: Just because first element--with autoplay on--insufficient to play if others not sufficiently loaded
22:41:29 <janina> Sean: Yes, but that is the decision point
22:41:57 <janina> Eric: Yes, we need to hash this out better
22:42:15 <janina> Silvia: Reading from spec on if blocked condition ....
22:49:01 <janina> [general agreement to add need to control autoplay to Sec 4.1 of our User Requirements]
22:49:24 <janina> Silvia: And looping?
22:49:35 <janina> Sean: Think it's the same issue
22:50:03 <janina> Sean: Looking at it, I don't think autoplay works as currently spec'd
22:51:19 <janina> Janina: Concerned about Easter related hollidays?
22:51:25 <janina> Sean: I'm out Thursday through Monday
22:51:29 <janina> Silvia: I'll be working through
22:53:14 <judy> [judy was asking about tonight as well]
22:53:47 <janina> Discussion of ready state
22:54:02 <janina> Silvia: Also a question if it exposes too much of inner workings
22:54:20 <janina> Silvia: Each browser may have different state with the same amount of loaded data
22:54:42 <janina> Eric: Events are not consistent across browsers
22:55:02 <janina> Eric: If a script doesn't register before event is fired, there's no way to determine whether it should play or not
22:55:19 <janina> Silvia: Isn't 'canplay' telling that
22:57:30 <janina> [general agreement we want ready state]
22:57:41 <janina> Eric: Controller firing events on state very important
22:57:44 <janina> Frank Concur
22:58:09 <janina> Frank: Similar behavior as possible is a good idea
22:58:27 <janina> Sean: No problem in principle, but perhaps in implementation ...
22:58:31 <janina> Eric: Minimum value
22:58:36 <janina> Sean: Always incrementing?
22:58:41 <janina> Eric: Can go backwards
22:59:08 <janina> Silvia: But not hard to calculate minimum
22:59:17 <janina> Silvia: Simple for browser, not easy for js developer
22:59:47 <janina> Sean: And, if you don't have it, you're in worse shape because you have to listen to all events
23:00:14 <janina> Eric: Fundamentally, one never knows, but it is much less work and very convenient to have the events and states
23:02:18 <janina> Silvia: I don't have additional issues--nothing new today except autoplay
23:02:30 <janina> Silvia: Will post, please all contribute to the discussion
23:03:11 <janina> Sean: If Ian's proposal not modified by deadline, we still have jultiple proposals
23:03:28 <janina> Eric: If we don't agree with his version, whether modified or not, we create a CP against it
23:05:09 <janina> rrsagent, make log public
23:05:17 <janina> rrsagent, make minutes
23:05:17 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/04/18-media-minutes.html janina
23:07:27 <Zakim> -Sean
23:07:30 <Zakim> -Bob_Lund
23:07:31 <Zakim> -Eric_Carlson
23:07:31 <Zakim> -Frank
23:07:33 <Zakim> -janina
23:07:35 <Zakim> -silvia
23:07:35 <Zakim> -Judy
23:07:36 <Zakim> Team_(html-a11y)21:30Z has ended
23:07:38 <Zakim> Attendees were janina, Sean, Bob_Lund, Eric_Carlson, Judy, Frank, silvia
23:07:38 <janina> zakim, bye
23:07:38 <Zakim> Zakim has left #media
23:07:47 <janina> rrsagent, make minutes
23:07:47 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/04/18-media-minutes.html janina
23:34:22 <judy> judy has joined #media
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