IRC log of xproc on 2011-04-14

Timestamps are in UTC.

13:56:52 [RRSAgent]
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logging to
13:57:40 [Norm]
Meeting: XML Processing Model WG
13:57:40 [Norm]
Date: 14 April 2011
13:57:40 [Norm]
13:57:40 [Norm]
Meeting: 191
13:57:40 [Norm]
Chair: Norm
13:57:41 [Norm]
Scribe: Norm
13:57:43 [Norm]
ScribeNick: Norm
13:59:14 [Zakim]
XML_PMWG()10:00AM has now started
13:59:21 [Zakim]
13:59:30 [MoZ]
Norm, I will only be able to attend on IRC
13:59:35 [Norm]
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14:01:01 [ht]
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14:01:12 [ht]
zakim, code?
14:01:12 [Zakim]
the conference code is 97762 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+ tel:+44.203.318.0479), ht
14:02:01 [Zakim]
14:02:06 [ht]
zakim, ? is me
14:02:06 [Zakim]
+ht; got it
14:02:22 [Zakim]
14:02:49 [Norm]
zakim, ipcaller is jfuller
14:02:49 [Zakim]
+jfuller; got it
14:03:08 [Zakim]
14:03:14 [Vojtech]
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14:03:18 [Norm]
zakim, who's talking?
14:03:32 [Zakim]
Norm, listening for 10 seconds I could not identify any sounds
14:03:32 [Norm]
that made it go away
14:03:41 [Norm]
sorry jfuller it wasn't you :-)
14:04:06 [jfuller]
14:04:07 [Zakim]
14:04:09 [jfuller]
ok calling back
14:04:18 [Vojtech]
zakim, jeroen is Vojtech
14:04:21 [Zakim]
+Vojtech; got it
14:04:25 [Zakim]
14:04:37 [Norm]
zakim, who's on the phone?
14:04:37 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Norm, PGrosso, Vojtech
14:04:52 [Norm]
Present: Norm, Paul, Vojtech, Jim, Henry, Mohamed [irc only]
14:05:02 [Zakim]
14:05:07 [ht]
zakim, ? is me
14:05:07 [Zakim]
+ht; got it
14:05:26 [Zakim]
14:05:37 [Norm]
zakim, ??p55 jfuller
14:05:37 [Zakim]
I don't understand '??p55 jfuller', Norm
14:05:42 [Norm]
zakim, ??p55 is jfuller
14:05:42 [Zakim]
+jfuller; got it
14:05:57 [Norm]
zakim, who's here?
14:05:58 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Norm, PGrosso, Vojtech, ht (muted), jfuller
14:05:59 [Zakim]
On IRC I see Vojtech, ht, PGrosso, RRSAgent, Zakim, MoZ, jfuller, Norm, Liam
14:07:07 [Norm]
Topic: Accept this agenda?
14:07:07 [Norm]
14:07:15 [Norm]
14:07:19 [jfuller]
14:07:21 [Norm]
Topic: Accept minutes from the previous meeting?
14:07:21 [Norm]
14:07:29 [Norm]
14:07:41 [Norm]
Topic: Next meeting: telcon, 21 Apr 2011?
14:08:00 [Norm]
No regrets heard
14:08:08 [Norm]
Topic: Meeting at TPAC2011
14:08:48 [Norm]
Norm: I have asked for a meeting slot; I've pencilled us in for a f2f meeting during TPAC 2011, the first week of November in Santa Clara, CA, US.
14:09:02 [Norm]
Norm: Anyone know for sure their plans?
14:09:13 [Norm]
Paul: I expect to be there.
14:09:15 [ht]
I hope to be, yes
14:09:17 [Norm]
Norm: So do I.
14:09:19 [Norm]
Jim: Probably not.
14:09:39 [Norm]
Vojtech: If there's work to do, then I can arrange something.
14:09:57 [Norm]
Norm: Ok, the onus is on me to get an agenda together int ime for you to make that decision.
14:11:02 [Norm]
Topic: Maps in XPath 3.0?
14:11:31 [Norm]
Norm: Do we have an opinion about maps?
14:11:47 [Norm]
Henry attempts to summarize the state of maps.
14:12:11 [jfuller]
I like maps
14:12:53 [Norm]
Norm attempts as well.
14:17:04 [Norm]
Norm: In XProc 1.0, we only have strings and only XML data flows between steps so it's not clear how we would use them.
14:17:18 [Norm]
Vojtech: I had to implement maps as extension steps for some internal use cases.
14:17:33 [Norm]
...I keep them as a global map because they were done as steps.
14:17:56 [Norm]
...I think it would be good to have them, but it can be solved in an implementation-dependent way.
14:19:32 [Norm]
Norm: I think if there is an XProc 2.0, then one of the things we might do is relax the restriction on variables. At that point, we probably want maps.
14:20:01 [Norm]
Henry: I've done some explorations in this space and looked into the most efficient implementation. I think that's a good reason to have maps as a first class data structure.
14:20:27 [Norm]
...If I, as a user, have a map with 10000 elements, I shouldn't have to worry about the most efficient way to update it. That's the implementation's job.
14:21:01 [Norm]
Some discussion of mutability. Maps aren't mutable.
14:21:45 [ht]
I endorse John Snelson's observation wrt copying
14:21:55 [Norm]
Norm: It sounds like we'd support the idea of maps, but we can't use them in 1.0.
14:21:55 [ht]
14:22:14 [Norm]
Norm: Anyone object to me telling the XSLT and XQuery WGs that?
14:22:16 [Norm]
No objections heard.
14:23:16 [alexmilowski]
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14:23:29 [Norm]
Jim: XML serialization?
14:23:32 [Norm]
Norm: Yes, that's possible.
14:24:12 [Norm]
Jim: What about QNames?
14:24:21 [Norm]
Norm: There's a literal syntax for those too.
14:24:44 [Zakim]
14:24:54 [Norm]
Present: +Alex
14:25:18 [Norm]
Topic: Last call of XML processor profiles
14:25:31 [Norm]
Norm: Thank you Henry for doing all the heavy lifting in getting that spec out.
14:25:37 [Norm]
Henry: No problem, sorry it took so long.
14:25:39 [Norm]
Norm: No worries.
14:25:55 [Norm]
Topic: Recommended processor profile in the browser
14:26:20 [Norm]
Alex: I've been looking at the browser XML processor, specifically in WebKit.
14:26:33 [Norm]
...The browsers don't like to go fetch external resources unless they absolutely have to.
14:26:40 [Norm]
...In the case of HTML, you have to go get scripts and things.
14:27:00 [Norm]
...But in the case of XML, that's not necessarily the case. In WebKit, they've just turned off processing external entities.
14:27:19 [Norm]
...If we don't do that, then we can't do the Recommended profile. So which profile can I follow?
14:27:33 [Norm]
...Then I realized that I lose XInclude and that's something that I think would be useful to have in the browser.
14:27:54 [Norm]
...So I feel like I don't have a profile that fits a web browser where you don't go get external definitions but you would like XInclude.
14:28:15 [Norm]
...Lots of languages these days aren't defined in terms of DTDs, so maybe it's a mistake to have them.
14:28:42 [Norm]
...I looked a little bit at MathML, because they need entities and that's the main reason for the external subset. MathML 3 seems to just say "just use Unicode".
14:29:09 [Norm]
...So I have a feeling we have a mismatch.
14:30:08 [Norm]
Alex: Henry, did you have specific things in mind besides math?
14:30:22 [Norm]
Henry: I don't want to lose it as a profile, because it continues to be the profile I want. I wish the browsers would implement it.
14:30:34 [Norm]
...When I develop with standard DTDs, I can't stand the result to the browser, it's a real pain.
14:30:40 [Norm]
Alex: I hear what you're saying.
14:30:49 [ht]
s/stand/just hand/
14:31:15 [Norm]
...If you use DTDs, you don't get the behavior you want. The real problem is how HTML is processed which doesn't need DTD processing.
14:31:31 [Norm]
...XHTML is an XML language, and they don't want to go get external declarations in that case.
14:32:04 [Norm]
...It turns out to be really complicated to get external declarations for XML but not for XHTML. So people just say they don't want to deal with DTDs.
14:32:12 [Norm]
...I'm not sure what to say there.
14:32:15 [Norm]
Henry: Neither am I.
14:32:33 [Norm]
Henry: I not also John Cowan's comments that recently came in. He doesn't like the last one either.
14:32:40 [Norm]
...He doesn't like the names full stop.
14:32:55 [Norm]
Norm: If all we had to do was change the names, that'd be lovely.
14:33:11 [Norm]
Norm: I don't know what to do about the browser case.
14:33:44 [Norm]
Henry: Going back to way back to one (but not the only) item that's near to the director's heart is the question of what infoset the author is committed to.
14:34:37 [Zakim]
14:35:07 [Norm]
...And my feeling is that it's pretty clear that its the last one and only the last one. Crucially, if i have a DTD in the document and in the external subset I define parity as a general entity who's value is "not" and I write "I do &parity;(insert inflamatory reference)" in a document, to what is the author committed?
14:35:20 [Norm]
...Clearly it's not the version of the document that doesn't have the value for the entity.
14:35:46 [Norm]
Norm: Yeah. I think that's a pretty compelling argument for not "recommending" anything that doesn't do the external subset.
14:36:11 [Norm]
Alex: Maybe we need to add something to deal with the standalone declaration.
14:36:19 [Norm]
Henry: Bad idea. No one understands it, no one uses it correctly.
14:36:26 [Zakim]
14:36:39 [jfuller]
Jim back
14:36:46 [Norm]
Norm: I expect Michael Sperberg-McQueen to file a comment about that, based on conversations we had in Prague.
14:36:56 [Norm]
Alex: It does answer the question from the author's perspective.
14:37:22 [Norm]
Norm: It's interesting, could we "recommend" only using documents that have standalone=yes.
14:37:40 [Norm]
Henry: On the web, we could. I don't know if I want to.
14:39:31 [Norm]
Henry: The other side of that is the XML promise, that all XML processors can process all well-formed documents. Surely if we recommend standalone=yes, browsers should reject documents that assert standalone=no
14:39:32 [ht]
Remember the so-called XML Promise "All XML processors can process all well-formed XML documents"
14:39:52 [Norm]
Norm: So where are we?
14:41:09 [Norm]
Alex: It's a real issue because external subsets become a bottleneck.
14:41:32 [Norm]
...We should have good, solid answers to questions about how you deal with the questions.
14:42:01 [Norm]
...And if I fall back from the recommended profile then I lose XInclude which I don't want to lose.
14:42:08 [Norm]
...I wonder why we don't have one inbetween?
14:42:14 [Norm]
Henry: Basically because we thought five was too many.
14:42:42 [jfuller]
coming up to speed with profiles...
14:42:55 [Norm]
Norm: I'm inclined to give this a week.
14:43:05 [Norm]
Henry: Can I address a completely different issue wrt the spec?
14:43:35 [Norm]
...To call people's attention to the fact that I restructured things a bit to try to make the relationships clearer.
14:43:48 [Norm]
...This was in direct response to a comment from Liam just as we were going out the door.
14:44:06 [Norm]
...If anyone has any problems or spots any errors, it would be helpful to hear about that.
14:44:16 [Norm]
Norm: I like the fact they're links now.
14:44:26 [Norm]
Topic: Any other business?
14:44:32 [Norm]
None heard.
14:44:39 [Norm]
14:44:40 [Zakim]
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14:44:42 [Zakim]
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14:44:45 [Zakim]
14:44:45 [jfuller]
14:44:46 [Zakim]
XML_PMWG()10:00AM has ended
14:44:48 [Zakim]
Attendees were Norm, PGrosso, ht, jfuller, Vojtech, [IPcaller]
14:44:48 [Norm]
rrsagent, set logs world-visible
14:44:51 [Norm]
rrsagent, draft minutes
14:44:51 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate Norm
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