16:11:44 RRSAgent has joined #ua 16:11:44 logging to http://www.w3.org/2011/04/14-ua-irc 16:11:46 RRSAgent, make logs public 16:11:46 Zakim has joined #ua 16:11:48 Zakim, this will be WAI_UAWG 16:11:48 ok, trackbot; I see WAI_UAWG()1:00PM scheduled to start in 49 minutes 16:11:49 Meeting: User Agent Accessibility Guidelines Working Group Teleconference 16:11:49 Date: 14 April 2011 16:12:06 chair: JimAllan, KellyFord 16:25:51 JAllan has joined #ua 16:57:30 Agenda+Proposals from Simon, please see:2.7.3 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2011JanMar/0090.html2.7.4 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2011JanMar/0095.html2.7.5 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2011JanMar/0092.html2.7.6 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2011JanMar/0094.html2.7.7 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2011JanMar/009 16:57:31 6.htmlAgenda+ review Greg & Kim Proposal http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2011AprJun/0006.html 16:58:00 zakim, delete item 1 16:58:00 agendum 1, Proposals from Simon, please see:2.7.3 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2011JanMar/0090.html2.7.4 16:58:02 ... http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2011JanMar/0095.html2.7.5 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2011JanMar/0092.html2.7.6 16:58:04 ... http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2011JanMar/0094.html2.7.7 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2011JanMar/009, dropped 16:58:40 Agenda+Proposals from Simon, please see: 16:58:42 2.7.3 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2011JanMar/0090.html 16:58:43 2.7.4 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2011JanMar/0095.html 16:58:45 2.7.5 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2011JanMar/0092.html 16:58:46 2.7.6 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2011JanMar/0094.html 16:58:48 2.7.7 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2011JanMar/0096.html 16:59:00 Agenda+ review Greg & Kim Proposal 16:59:02 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2011AprJun/0006.html 16:59:09 kford has joined #ua 16:59:41 Greg has joined #ua 17:00:40 Agenda+Quick survey F2F Santa Clara, CA at the Santa Clara Marriott Hotel from 31 October through 4 November 2011 17:00:50 WAI_UAWG()1:00PM has now started 17:00:57 +[Microsoft] 17:01:02 + +1.425.895.aaaa 17:01:07 microosft is kford 17:01:09 + +1.512.206.aabb 17:01:11 zakim, aaaa is me 17:01:11 +Greg; got it 17:01:13 zakim, microsoft is kford 17:01:13 +kford; got it 17:01:29 zakim, aabb is me 17:01:29 +JAllan; got it 17:01:38 zakim, agenda 17:01:38 I don't understand 'agenda', kford 17:01:46 zakim, agenda? 17:01:46 I see 3 items remaining on the agenda: 17:01:48 2. Proposals from Simon, please see: [from JAllan] 17:01:50 3. review Greg & Kim Proposal [from JAllan] 17:01:52 4. Quick survey F2F Santa Clara, CA at the Santa Clara Marriott Hotel from 31 October through 4 November 2011 [from JAllan] 17:02:19 Jan has joined #ua 17:02:37 zakim, code? 17:02:37 the conference code is 82941 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.26.46.79.03 tel:+44.203.318.0479), Jan 17:02:53 +??P4 17:03:42 mhakkinen has joined #ua 17:03:49 zakim, ??P4 is really Jan 17:03:49 +Jan; got it 17:04:15 rrsagent, make minutes 17:04:15 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/04/14-ua-minutes.html kford 17:05:53 zakim, who's here? 17:05:53 On the phone I see kford, Greg, JAllan, Jan 17:05:54 On IRC I see mhakkinen, Jan, Greg, kford, JAllan, Zakim, RRSAgent, trackbot 17:06:26 +Mark_Hakkinen 17:08:33 JAllan_ has joined #ua 17:11:14 sharper has joined #ua 17:13:15 zakim, agenda? 17:13:15 I see 3 items remaining on the agenda: 17:13:17 2. Proposals from Simon, please see: [from JAllan] 17:13:18 3. review Greg & Kim Proposal [from JAllan] 17:13:19 4. Quick survey F2F Santa Clara, CA at the Santa Clara Marriott Hotel from 31 October through 4 November 2011 [from JAllan] 17:14:40 zakim, code? 17:14:40 the conference code is 82941 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.26.46.79.03 tel:+44.203.318.0479), sharper 17:15:23 +??P19 17:15:35 zakim, ??P19 is sharper 17:15:35 +sharper; got it 17:16:22 Kudos to Simon as co-chair of revitalized R&D WG 17:16:58 Scribe: KFord 17:17:11 sh: explains the purpose of the RDWG, quarterly meetings, workshops on new topics 17:17:18 SH explains new R&D W3C group. 17:17:46 Sim9on, do you have a link to your group's home page? 17:18:13 s/Sim9on/Simon 17:18:16 http://www.w3.org/WAI/RD/ 17:22:19 Group gives some history of previous involvement with this effort. 17:23:04 +Jeanne 17:23:12 zakim, agenda? 17:23:12 I see 3 items remaining on the agenda: 17:23:14 2. Proposals from Simon, please see: [from JAllan] 17:23:16 3. review Greg & Kim Proposal [from JAllan] 17:23:18 4. Quick survey F2F Santa Clara, CA at the Santa Clara Marriott Hotel from 31 October through 4 November 2011 [from JAllan] 17:23:33 agenda+reminder longer meeting on April 28 17:23:41 jeanne has joined #ua 17:23:45 zakim, open item 5 17:23:45 agendum 5. "reminder longer meeting on April 28" taken up [from JAllan] 17:24:53 zakim, agenda? 17:24:53 I see 4 items remaining on the agenda: 17:24:55 2. Proposals from Simon, please see: [from JAllan] 17:24:57 3. review Greg & Kim Proposal [from JAllan] 17:24:59 4. Quick survey F2F Santa Clara, CA at the Santa Clara Marriott Hotel from 31 October through 4 November 2011 [from JAllan] 17:25:01 5. reminder longer meeting on April 28 [from JAllan] 17:25:14 zakim, take up item 5 17:25:14 agendum 5. "reminder longer meeting on April 28" taken up [from JAllan] 17:25:51 JA reminds everyone of the longer call on 4/28. 17:25:54 KimPatch has joined #ua 17:26:00 zakim, close item 5 17:26:00 agendum 5, reminder longer meeting on April 28, closed 17:26:01 I see 3 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is 17:26:03 2. Proposals from Simon, please see: [from JAllan] 17:26:08 zakim, take up item 4 17:26:08 agendum 4. "Quick survey F2F Santa Clara, CA at the Santa Clara Marriott Hotel from 31 October through 4 November 2011" taken up [from JAllan] 17:26:33 + +1.617.325.aacc 17:26:37 JA: There will be a TPAC meeting in CA on 10/31. 17:26:59 zakim, who is here? 17:26:59 On the phone I see kford, Greg, JAllan, Jan, Mark_Hakkinen, sharper, Jeanne, +1.617.325.aacc 17:27:02 JA: Do people think we should try and meet at this meeting and do a F2F? 17:27:02 On IRC I see KimPatch, jeanne, sharper, JAllan, mhakkinen, Jan, Greg, kford, Zakim, RRSAgent, trackbot 17:27:13 zakim, aacc is really Kim 17:27:13 +Kim; got it 17:28:02 Group in general sounds like reasonable idea. 17:29:00 Greg: would prefer later in the week. 17:29:13 small registration fee of 50 USD per day to defray a portion of the meeting costs 17:29:20 Simon: I can't get that far to California. 17:31:04 Simon: I'd like to pass up the tree that it's cheeky of W3C to ask for a $50 fee when we are already providing our work for free. 17:31:25 Jan: I doubt I could attend in person. I probably could attend by phone. 17:31:39 Greg: I probably could make it, but I would have to verify that. 17:31:51 Kelly: Probably yes. 17:31:58 Kim: Tentative yes 17:32:06 Jim: Yes, but I have to talk to Judy. 17:32:09 Jeanne: yes 17:32:28 +1 for thursday-friday 17:33:44 +1 for early or late in the week 17:36:27 Group moving forward on doing a F2F. 17:38:57 zakim, close item 4 17:38:57 agendum 4, Quick survey F2F Santa Clara, CA at the Santa Clara Marriott Hotel from 31 October through 4 November 2011, closed 17:38:59 I see 2 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is 17:39:01 2. Proposals from Simon, please see: [from JAllan] 17:39:22 action: JAllan complete WBS F2F survey, for beginning of the week (can change later), meet with html5, pf 17:39:22 Created ACTION-523 - Complete WBS F2F survey, for beginning of the week (can change later), meet with html5, pf [on Jim Allan - due 2011-04-21]. 17:40:52 JS: Do we have anyone who has knowledge about creating accessible PDFs using tools outside Adobe tools? 17:41:57 If you know more about this, let JS know. 17:42:36 simon: Vision Australia just presented a paper at the W4All conference on this. 17:43:51 rrsagent, make minutes 17:43:51 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/04/14-ua-minutes.html jeanne 17:44:24 topic SC 2.7.3 17:44:27 2.7.3 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2011JanMar/0090.html 17:44:27 zakim, take up item 2 17:44:27 agendum 2. "Proposals from Simon, please see:" taken up [from JAllan] 17:45:09 http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/36791/20110405/results 17:45:55 http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/36791/20110405/results#xq3 17:47:18 wiki - http://www.w3.org/WAI/UA/work/wiki/Guideline_2.7 17:48:14 Jeanne's wording for 2.7.3 http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/36791/20110405/results#xq3 17:49:27 The user can view the path of nodes leading from the root of any content hierarchy including those in which the structure and semantics are implied by presentation. 17:50:53 1. The new wording still says the path goes from the root, but not where it goes to. 17:51:49 2. If it requires the UA to infer hierarchy from presentation, the UA may get it wrong, and may that (at least in some cases) be even worse for the user than not providing any hierarchy? 17:53:29 JS: need to deal with heuristics. seems a lot for Level A 17:53:40 Group talking about the aspects of determining path. 17:54:11 Simon: It is more like the Firebug Inspect visual rendering of the information. 17:54:40 SH: The DOM might not be the rendered model. 17:55:30 JR: If I put things that visually look close so you can associate them, how is the browser supposed to figure this out? 17:55:36 q+ 17:56:17 Keep in mind that screen readers try to infer labels for elements based on spatial position, but they are not foolproof. For example, imagine a scripted element with text immediately above and to the left of it. Which is the element? Can't be sure. 17:56:52 kf: confused. without explicit association, AT doesn't know what to do. they have heuristics and try to guess. half the time get it wrong. 17:57:02 q- 17:57:03 ... what are we asking. 17:57:20 I would say that presenting hierarchy that is entirely known (because it's spelled out in the DOM or source) should be higher priority than putting in heuristics and presenting guesswork to the user. 17:58:09 JS: Canvas makes this even harder. 17:58:27 JA: Mark you were a browser developer, is such a thing possible. 17:58:47 MH: I think this would be hard. 17:58:52 q+ 17:58:54 I suggest we create some usage examples and then decide which we want to require at what priority levels, and only after that try to craft legalese wording for one or more SCs. 17:59:17 q- 18:00:33 E.g. usage example 1: the user can issue a keyboard command causing their Web browser to pop-up a window showing the list of container elements from the root to the element that has the keyboard focus. 18:01:25 E.g. usage example 2: the user right-click on an element and choose a command from its context menu causing their Web browser to pop-up a window showing the list of container elements from the root to the element that was clicked on. 18:01:34 canvas is just pixels. 18:01:46 sh: how is dom created for canvas. 18:02:05 (Both of those would be container elements based on the DOM.) 18:02:06 kf: web author is expected to do that 18:02:43 mh: author must provide coordinates of focus ring to AT 18:02:59 kp: most developer won't do this. 18:03:23 mh: will require toolkits for canvas. 18:04:01 E.g. usage example 3: The user can use a command that selects the element that is the container of the element that is currently selected. 18:05:56 E.g. usage example 4: Just like #1 except the UA uses heuristics to try to determine hierarchy that is not explicit in the DOM. 18:06:38 first proposal usage example 1: the user can issue a keyboard command causing their Web browser to pop-up a window showing the list of container elements from the root to the element that has the keyboard focus. 18:09:37 rrsagent, make minutes 18:09:37 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/04/14-ua-minutes.html kford 18:09:48 KP: This seems like it is hard to do. 18:09:59 JR: What is a user going to do with the info? 18:10:14 E.g. usage example 5: The user can turn on a mode where the browser's status bar shows the hierarchy of elements from that which has the keyboard focus to the root, as in root > body > div "content" > h1 "My Title > p > a. 18:10:34 s/My Title/My Title"/ 18:10:54 SH: I'd say it is more useful to have a path going to the root from the leaf. 18:11:11 JS: What accessibility problem does this solve? 18:11:33 SH: I think we are making a lot of presumptions about what people will and won't use. 18:11:56 MH: Wouldn't these items be solved by good structural markup. 18:12:19 SH: Yes but what should be in the real world and what is actually there are two different items. 18:12:48 KP: I agree that you have to get the world to try and do the right thing but you should try and have a safety net too. 18:13:42 SH: Maybe I should take this one back and reformulate things a bit. 18:14:02 GL: I suggest we use the wiki to put more usage examples for this. 18:14:32 MH: Can we try and put examples of real code where we think we'd need this approach. 18:16:07 http://www.w3.org/WAI/UA/work/wiki/Location_Hierarchy 18:18:40 rrsagent, makie minutes 18:18:40 I'm logging. I don't understand 'makie minutes', kford. Try /msg RRSAgent help 18:18:51 rrsagent, make minutes 18:18:51 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/04/14-ua-minutes.html kford 18:20:42 Mark referenced navigation based on structure, as opposed to merely displaying the structure. Navigation can be divided into the categories: sequential (back and forth), structural (as in to parent and child and sibling), directional (as in up, down, right and left based on screen position), and search. 18:21:10 Kim's and my proposal on navigation includes three of those four, omitting only directional navigation. 18:21:21 Topic: 2.7.4 http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/36791/20110405/results#xq4 18:22:05 JA: We have two accepts and two changes. 18:22:24 GL: I think the SC isn't getting at the heart of what we want to achieve. 18:22:29 proposed change: Direct navigation: The user can navigate directly to important (structural and operable) elements in rendered content. (Level A). 18:23:42 Intent - It is often difficult for some people to use a pointing device (the standard method of direct navigation) to move the viewport and focus to important elements. In this case some other form of direct navigation - such as numbers or key combinations assigned to important elements - should be available which can then be accessed via the keyboard or speech control technology. 18:26:52 We need to distinguish between two potential features: 1) where frequently used operable elements have direct navigation/activation keyboard commands (e.g. Alt+D to go to the address bar), vs. 2) a mode where the user agent adds direct navigation commands to ALL operable elements (e.g. the Mouseless Browsing extension for Firefox, which adds numbers to all links and controls). 18:27:59 Present:Jim, Greg, Mark, Kelly, Simon, Kim, Jan, Jeanne 18:28:09 rrsagent, make minutes 18:28:09 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/04/14-ua-minutes.html kford 18:28:58 My first thought is that (1) is something that's already widely done, and expected by users, and therefore should be Level A, although it does have the problem of defining which set of controls are those that are frequently used and therefore should get direct shortcuts, whereas (2) is less widely done, and therefore could be lower priority. 18:29:23 KP: I'm not sure you have to reconfigure. 18:30:16 JA: Is what is missing is specificity or what? 18:30:52 -Jeanne 18:31:25 SH: The intent here is something like mouseless browsing. 18:32:48 KP: What are we trying to bring to this by being more specific? 18:32:52 latest draft 18:32:55 http://www.w3.org/WAI/UA/2011/ED-UAAG20-20110406/ 18:33:00 KP: Mouseless browsing is already a good example. 18:34:19 JA: If we are going a bit in circles on this, are developers going to get confused. 18:35:20 implementing http://www.w3.org/WAI/UA/2011/ED-IMPLEMENTING-UAAG20-201 18:35:25 zakim, call jeanne-mobile 18:35:25 ok, jeanne; the call is being made 18:35:26 +Jeanne 18:35:56 working draft http://www.w3.org/TR/2010/WD-UAAG20-20100617/ 18:36:32 implementinghttp://www.w3.org/WAI/UA/2011/ED-IMPLEMENTING-UAAG20-20110406/ 18:36:37 http://www.w3.org/WAI/UA/2011/ED-IMPLEMENTING-UAAG20-20110406/ 18:37:11 Simon: Configure these important elements. 18:37:26 Greg: That is an existing SC - 1.2.3 Important Elements 18:37:56 rrsagent, make minutes 18:37:56 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/04/14-ua-minutes.html kford 18:38:16 "1.10.3 (former 3.12.3) Configure Set of Important Elements: 18:38:17 The user can configure the set of important elements for the hierarchical view, including by element type (e.g., headers). (Level AAA)" 18:38:27 "Intent of Success Criterion 1.10.3 (former 3.12.3): 18:38:29 Sometimes authors will visually convey relationships between elements by spatially grouping them, by giving them the same coloration or background, and so forth. Users may not be able to perceive those attributes, such as when using a screen reader, or when strong magnification makes it difficult to make a mental model of the screen layout. In those cases the user agent can assist by... 18:38:30 ...providing a view of the data that groups elements that that user agent perceives as implying relationships. " 18:38:48 -kford 18:40:23 I believe that my confusion was at least partially caused by a disconnect between the text of the SC ("The user can navigate directly to important (structural and operable) elements in rendered content. (Level A).") and it's title ("Diret Navigation") which is MUCH broader than the SC warrants. If we adjust the title it will help avoid confusion. 18:40:55 Perhaps "Direct Navigation to Important Elements"? 18:41:52 That would leave it open for us to have another SC that required direct navigation to some frequently used elements in the UA UI. 18:43:02 -Jan 18:43:29 mh: important elements - ua needs to incorporate aria-roles in to important elements designation 18:43:52 "non-important" elements can become important through use of ARIA role. E.g.
18:44:30 action: change the name of 2.7.4 to "Direct Navigation to Important Elements" 18:44:30 Sorry, couldn't find user - change 18:44:48 action: jeanne to change the name of 2.7.4 to "Direct Navigation to Important Elements" 18:44:48 Created ACTION-524 - Change the name of 2.7.4 to "Direct Navigation to Important Elements" [on Jeanne F Spellman - due 2011-04-21]. 18:47:13 -Mark_Hakkinen 18:47:14 -Kim 18:47:23 -sharper 18:48:43 issue: navigate by element and semantic role (
) 18:48:43 Created ISSUE-83 - Navigate by element and semantic role (
) ; please complete additional details at http://www.w3.org/WAI/UA/tracker/issues/83/edit . 18:49:05 rrsagent, make minutes 18:49:05 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/04/14-ua-minutes.html jeanne 18:54:55 -JAllan 18:54:56 -Jeanne 18:54:59 -Greg 18:55:00 WAI_UAWG()1:00PM has ended 18:55:02 Attendees were +1.425.895.aaaa, +1.512.206.aabb, Greg, kford, JAllan, Jan, Mark_Hakkinen, sharper, Jeanne, +1.617.325.aacc, Kim 19:12:11 rrsagent, bye 19:12:11 I see 3 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2011/04/14-ua-actions.rdf : 19:12:11 ACTION: JAllan complete WBS F2F survey, for beginning of the week (can change later), meet with html5, pf [1] 19:12:11 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2011/04/14-ua-irc#T17-39-22 19:12:11 ACTION: change the name of 2.7.4 to "Direct Navigation to Important Elements" [2] 19:12:11 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2011/04/14-ua-irc#T18-44-30 19:12:11 ACTION: jeanne to change the name of 2.7.4 to "Direct Navigation to Important Elements" [3] 19:12:11 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2011/04/14-ua-irc#T18-44-48