16:59:32 RRSAgent has joined #tagmem 16:59:32 logging to http://www.w3.org/2011/04/14-tagmem-irc 16:59:47 TAG_Weekly()1:00PM has now started 16:59:54 +plinss 17:00:18 +Noah_Mendelsohn 17:01:06 +Jonathan_Rees 17:01:07 chair: Noah Mendelsohn 17:01:39 Agenda: http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2011/04/14-agenda 17:01:49 scribe: Jonathan Rees 17:01:54 scribenick: jar 17:02:30 +??P2 17:02:35 +Yves 17:02:46 -??P2 17:03:17 +??P0 17:03:26 +??P2 17:03:27 zakim, ? is me 17:03:28 sorry, ht, I do not recognize a party named '?' 17:03:33 zakim, P0 17:03:33 I don't understand 'P0', ht 17:03:36 zakim, P0 is me 17:03:36 sorry, ht, I do not recognize a party named 'P0' 17:03:51 zakim, who is here? 17:03:51 On the phone I see plinss, Noah_Mendelsohn, Jonathan_Rees, Yves, ht (muted), ??P2 17:03:53 On IRC I see RRSAgent, Zakim, JeniT, ndw, noah, DKA, ht, jar_, timbl, plinss, Yves, trackbot 17:04:28 topic: Convene 17:05:01 regrets: Ashok 17:05:29 topic: Approve minutes 17:05:34 acclaim 17:05:55 RESOLUTION: minutes of 31 March 2011 http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2011/03/31-minutes are approved 17:06:04 topic: Administrative items 17:06:31 Question of whether to meet next week 17:06:53 zakim, who is here? 17:06:53 On the phone I see plinss, Noah_Mendelsohn, Jonathan_Rees, Yves, ht (muted), JeniT 17:06:56 On IRC I see RRSAgent, Zakim, JeniT, ndw, noah, DKA, ht, jar_, timbl, plinss, Yves, trackbot 17:07:02 My participation on 28 April is uncertain 17:07:14 +Masinter 17:07:43 Larry has joined #tagmem 17:08:28 topic: IETF meeting debrief 17:09:15 Noah: So what were all the high level topics that were taken up? 17:09:20 Do we have final slides from the talk? 17:10:44 ht: Need to remind people... at F2F when I took this on, didn't know how big it was 17:10:55 ... 800 or so people in the room, not the 50 I expected 17:11:23 ... there are intense undercurrents around what IETF means by "application" 17:11:47 ... different opinions regarding importance of 'real time protocols' (e.g. SIP) 17:12:16 ... I learned a lot in the 24 hours prior to the talk and significantly revised the slides 17:12:45 +DKA 17:13:21 +TimBL 17:13:39 ht: 1. IETF have been around for 30? years. 1000 people at meeting isntead of 3000 formerly 17:13:51 wrong copy paste 17:14:05 ... some people have been with IETF through their entire careers 17:14:11 s/wrong copy paste// 17:14:39 ... W3C doesn't necessarily loom large in the view those involved in IETF 17:15:48 ... For IETF, main concern is physical architecture. Very hard edged, engineering viewpoint 17:16:04 Yes, as I said often at the time the TAG was formed, the W3C's use of the word "architecture" confused me for many years. I've learned to get on with it, and what the TAG does is useful, but it's somewhat more informal than what I "grew up" learning as architecture. 17:16:18 ... not about best practices & guidelines (for the most part). 17:16:57 ... For much of IETF's history, IAB ran the IETF - had authority. 17:17:56 ... HT gave the first talk in the plenary. Cut most examples, did talk about resource loading 17:18:33 ... Added to the talk at request of chair: slides on HTML5 and the W3C Web platform idea 17:19:17 ... Is there no need for standards and protocols (sensu IETF) any more? 17:19:58 ... Debate. Middle ground: yes, more use of HTTP, but there will also be new protocols 17:20:06 See http://tools.ietf.org/search/bcp56 17:20:13 "On the use of HTTP as a Substrate" 17:20:14 q+ to wonder about what replaces the idea of a protocol in the IETF view -- is it aJSON API? Is it a RDF ontology for use with SQARQL-Update 17:20:46 ... Afterwards, a number of people from IAB said, yes our two groups should meet together some time 17:21:02 ... calendaring nightmare of course. 17:21:48 ... There's also an IAB retreat coming up, potential for interaction there, maybe 17:22:04 ... Jim Gettys says hi 17:22:14 http://www.iab.org/about/members.html 17:22:36 ... talked about buffer bloat 17:23:47 masinter: Architecture in IETF is nuanced 17:24:25 ... IAB was an inspiration when TAG charter was written, with some talk about need to liaise 17:24:47 Jon Peterson? (sp) 17:25:18 encourage Noah to discuss with IAB chair for joint meeting 17:25:43 and also consider ongoing liaison 17:25:52 including reviewing of documents of mutual interest 17:26:12 IAB has a document on protocol extensibility, which reflects on versioning 17:26:32 (as an example) 17:27:00 Major topic: registries and IANA 17:27:29 Discussion including Mark Nottingham and Thomas Roessler re registries 17:27:39 and IANA and application area directors 17:27:47 Now there is a new mailing list, "Happy IANA" 17:27:57 and a wiki with problem & proposed solutions 17:28:06 s/Discussion/larry: Discussion/ 17:29:10 ... hope we can resolve registries, mime type, etc. Need to remove administrative / process issues 17:29:26 ... which can be fixed separately from content 17:29:59 this from draft-masinter-mime-web-info IETF internet draft i will remove administrative issues 17:30:03 ... e.g. fragment ids and magic numbers for sniffing are different from registration process tracking 17:30:38 ... Some other webarch-related topics were discussed at the IETF meeting 17:30:48 ... e.g. IRI 17:30:57 ... short discussion of sniffing 17:31:21 ... do not track header. Will anyone from TAG be at the upcoming Princeton workshop? 17:31:24 http://www.w3.org/2011/track-privacy/ 17:31:24 (silence) 17:31:32 I won't be there. 17:32:08 I won't -- have been in previous ons but can't make that one 17:32:15 q+ 17:32:21 what i'm looking for and haven't seen is the threat analysis 17:32:27 larry: I haven't seen a threat analysis of the do-not-track idea 17:33:06 ... E.g. look at Paypal position paper - what are we trying to prevent? Use that as a way to evaluate any given proposal 17:33:30 timbl: Privacy workshops have been going on for some time, [would be surprised if this hasn't been done] 17:33:44 dnt can't solve the issue of people not respecting rules, just limit the privacy leakage form sites with a good reputation 17:33:52 noah: Are you concerned that this effort isn't well grounded in use cases? 17:34:21 larry: Yes, afraid people are jumping into solutions without a clear understanding of the problem. 17:35:50 timbl: Privacy has come to prominence recently, lots of papers and analysis, threat models... no comprehensive solution yet, but lots of prior work... doesn't look like a rush job to me 17:36:48 noah: I assumed threat analysis was implicit, established 17:40:16 do-not-track is truting good sites, api minimization is not trusting bad sites, so yes completely different approach and kind of solution 17:41:00 would like some way for TAG review Princeton workshop to see if there are TAG issues to address 17:41:23 noah: Here's something we don't quite understanding. How important to find out? 17:41:41 larry: Workshop is in Princeton in a couple of weeks. Would be good if someone went. 17:41:56 Background doc. for the IAB panel at IETF-Prague: http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-tschofenig-post-standardization-00 17:42:14 ashok mar 4: It's easy for me to drive to Princeton and those dates look open so far. 17:42:15 So, I'll be happy to cover this for the TAG as long as I don't have to write a position paper : 17:42:41 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-tag/2011Mar/0031.html 17:42:50 I think the mandate would be just to observe and come back with any architectural issues we might want to take up 17:43:12 noah: Let's ask Ashok to attend. 17:43:30 look at long-term issues and maybe a post-mortem on P3P 17:44:12 One of the authors is Jon Peterson, who a) chaired the panel and b) on the IAB 17:44:25 IAB membership: http://www.iab.org/about/members.html 17:44:33 lm: observe and come back with any architectural issues that come up 17:44:39 . ACTION Ashok To report to TAG, after privacy workshop, regarding architecture issue on privacy and especially degree to which "do not track" meets real use cases 17:44:47 ACTION Ashok To report to TAG, after privacy workshop, regarding architecture issue on privacy and especially degree to which "do not track" meets real use cases 17:44:47 Created ACTION-545 - Report to TAG, after privacy workshop, regarding architecture issue on privacy and especially degree to which "do not track" meets real use cases [on Ashok Malhotra - due 2011-04-21]. 17:45:46 rather than negative, look at positive: what other real use cases need additional privacy work? 17:46:06 "especially degree in which other work beyond DNT is needed" 17:46:51 Report to TAG, after privacy workshop, regarding architecture issue on privacy and especially degree to which use cases beyond those addressed by "Do Not Track" need attention 17:47:19 ACTION-545? 17:47:20 ACTION-545 -- Ashok Malhotra to report to TAG, after privacy workshop, regarding architecture issue on privacy and especially degree to which use cases beyond those addressed by "Do Not Track" need attention -- due 2011-04-21 -- OPEN 17:47:20 http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/545 17:47:46 http://www.w3.org/2011/track-privacy/ 17:47:48 ACTION-545 Due 2011-05-03 17:47:48 ACTION-545 Report to TAG, after privacy workshop, regarding architecture issue on privacy and especially degree to which use cases beyond those addressed by "Do Not Track" need attention due date now 2011-05-03 17:48:10 q- 17:48:32 q- timbl 17:48:49 larry: Jim G has been tracking source of latency in net 17:49:10 ... much of it is around excessive buffering 17:49:27 IAB Chair situation: "Bernard Aboba replaced Olaf Kolkman, who stepped down" 17:50:32 below our level but interesting that it i one of the things we depend on. 17:50:36 "Buffer Bloat" 17:50:45 noah: Sun WSs way back when had great latency, due to fewer copy operations 17:51:09 Excessive buffer copying has been a recurring implementation issue for 25 years. It's an important implementation issue. 17:51:11 ht: Has nothing to do with Jim's work. Let's take it up over lunch 17:51:40 timbl: It's about misconfiguring their routers... 17:51:55 Brian Carpenter used to say that network systems perf is just a question of round trips and times the data is copied. 17:51:57 larry: and lots of other things too. 17:52:02 Proposal: we're having F2F in June. Should invite JG for lunch + a session? 17:52:04 That is is different. 17:52:09 It is below our level 17:52:10 HT: At least lunch. May not be a TAG issue. 17:52:16 agree 17:52:32 Somebody Else's Problem (tm) 17:53:04 ACTION: Noah to ask Jim Gettys about joining us for lunch at June F2F Due 2011-05-15 17:53:04 Created ACTION-546 - Ask Jim Gettys about joining us for lunch at June F2F Due 2011-05-15 [on Noah Mendelsohn - due 2011-04-21]. 17:54:09 Noah, please note: Bernard Aboba IAB Chair bernard_aboba AT hotmail.com 17:54:16 larry: (missed) Thomas has taken it up. If other staff members etc. involved in IANA etc then ... 17:54:24 thanks, ht 17:54:30 larry: HTTPbis. Testing is starting 17:55:00 s/is starting/will start soon/ 17:55:37 larry: URNbis proceeding, http: URIs aren't enough. 17:55:42 s/will start soon/can start soon/ 17:56:31 https://datatracker.ietf.org/wg/urnbis/charter/ 17:56:40 ACTION-542? 17:56:40 ACTION-542 -- Larry Masinter to and Henry to report on IETF Meeting Due 2011-04-07 -- due 2011-03-31 -- OPEN 17:56:40 http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/542 17:56:49 close ACTION-542 17:56:49 ACTION-542 And Henry to report on IETF Meeting Due 2011-04-07 closed 17:56:59 ACTION-540? 17:56:59 ACTION-540 -- Larry Masinter to try to arrange for Thomas Roessler to participate in the meeting about Registries at the IETF meeting in Prague -- due 2011-03-24 -- CLOSED 17:56:59 http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/540 17:57:31 ACTION-539? 17:57:31 ACTION-539 -- Larry Masinter to liaise with Thomas Roessler about the registries issue background -- due 2011-03-24 -- PENDINGREVIEW 17:57:31 http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/539 17:58:22 LM: 539 is effectively with Thomas now. 17:58:34 close ACTION-539? 17:58:53 yes, think it doesn't need TAG follow up 17:58:55 ACTION-519? 17:58:55 ACTION-519 -- Peter Linss to frame architectural opportunities relating to scalability of resource access -- due 2011-04-05 -- OPEN 17:58:55 http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/519 17:59:30 that was a topic that Henry didn't have a chance to really go into it in depth, and maybe we should talk about with IAB 18:00:04 URNP 1.1 18:00:11 suggest Peter talk to Dave Crocker about Dave's idea 18:00:12 ACTION-519 Due 2011-04-26 18:00:12 ACTION-519 Frame architectural opportunities relating to scalability of resource access due date now 2011-04-26 18:00:13 ht: From the floor, Dave Crocker suggested, put them [the overfetched resources] in the DNS. 18:01:06 larry: In summary - I was pleased - there are great opportunities for coordination between IETF and W3C at architectural level 18:03:10 topic: Hyperlinks and email 18:03:19 s/email/copyright/ 18:03:44 http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/doc/publishingAndLinkingOnTheWeb.html 18:03:45 Current draft here: http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/doc/publishingAndLinkingOnTheWeb.html 18:04:21 zakim, unmute me 18:04:21 DKA should no longer be muted 18:06:32 Maybe we want to say roughly what Larry is saying: I.e. give relatively narrow definitions of "cache", "archive", etc. then say: in actual Web systems, software makes copies sometimes for cacheing, sometimes for archiving, or sometimes for combinations of such reasons. 18:06:39 q+ 18:06:39 q? 18:06:48 I agree 18:07:11 ack next 18:07:58 dka: Want to clarify re URIs and public identifiers even outside the context of linking... 18:08:22 ... maybe Rigo's point is outside the scope of the document? 18:09:35 Caching and archiving are two examples of making copies of stuff you got from somewhere else, common elements of distributed system design. The web's contribution (around "404 not found") 18:10:04 ... Rigo said, if you use a namespace with a controversial name[space?], that's another use of a URI that could be a problem... 18:10:38 Jeni: We're talking about the actual consequences of the links, not URIs as names in namespaces 18:10:50 s/links/URIs as links/ 18:11:34 noah: We talked about what the TAG's role might be in this... settled on a terminology document as starting point? 18:13:15 dka: Yes, that's what this is. Need some more iterations on the document. Aiming to say something that is not legal but might be relevant in legal (or whatever) discussions... not there yet 18:13:35 no problem 18:13:45 noah: Pls give some guidance for agenda preparation & scheduling 18:14:04 q+ 18:14:37 ack next 18:15:07 noah: Re German high court decision, do we need to talk about this? 18:15:24 In particular, do I need to track any followup activity relating to it? 18:15:42 -ht 18:16:52 Jar: it would be useful to have a set of legal questions in the document. 18:16:56 JAR: Thinking about this over the past week or two, how do we finesse legal/technical issues. It may be useful to have a set of legal questions that we have in mind. We can't speak to the quesitons themselves, but they are sort of use cases for us. 18:17:10 JAR: Some of these are things that have yet to be decided by courts. 18:17:23 NM: Though in the German case, Rigo pointed to a high court decision 18:17:44 are there "expert witness" technical statements from previous court cases over linking? 18:18:08 linksandlaw.com 18:18:23 http://www.linksandlaw.com/ 18:18:25 OK 18:18:59 ACTION-541? 18:18:59 ACTION-541 -- Jeni Tennison to helped by DKA to produce a first draft of terminology about (deep-)linking etc. -- due 2011-04-12 -- OPEN 18:18:59 http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/541 18:19:30 ACTION-541 Due 2011-04-26 18:19:31 ACTION-541 Helped by DKA to produce a first draft of terminology about (deep-)linking etc. due date now 2011-04-26 18:19:49 larry: mailing list discussion has been productive 18:20:11 topic: Overdue action items 18:20:14 http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/overdue?sort=owner 18:20:31 ACTION-480? 18:20:31 ACTION-480 -- Daniel Appelquist to draft overview document framing Web applications as opposed to traditional Web of documents -- due 2011-04-12 -- OPEN 18:20:31 http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/480 18:21:19 ACTION-480 Due 2011-04-26 18:21:19 ACTION-480 Draft overview document framing Web applications as opposed to traditional Web of documents due date now 2011-04-26 18:21:27 ACTION-537? 18:21:27 ACTION-537 -- Daniel Appelquist to reach out to Web apps chair to solicit help on framing architecture (incluing terminology, good practice) relating to interaction -- due 2011-04-05 -- OPEN 18:21:27 http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/537 18:21:58 ACTION-537 Due 2011-04-26 18:21:58 ACTION-537 Reach out to Web apps chair to solicit help on framing architecture (incluing terminology, good practice) relating to interaction due date now 2011-04-26 18:22:05 ACTION-514? 18:22:05 ACTION-514 -- Daniel Appelquist to draft finding on API minimization Due: 2011-02-01 -- due 2011-04-12 -- OPEN 18:22:05 http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/514 18:22:51 dka: Re 514, not clear on what process to use to progress this document 18:23:37 http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/doc/APIMinimization.html 18:24:08 ... need more material, review 18:24:46 ... at F2F, I suggested this be a small document. Is it time to circulate it more widely? 18:26:14 ACTION Dan to ask on www-tag and Web Apps mailing lists for advice on moving forward with http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/doc/APIMinimization.html 18:26:14 Created ACTION-547 - Ask on www-tag and Web Apps mailing lists for advice on moving forward with http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/doc/APIMinimization.html [on Daniel Appelquist - due 2011-04-21]. 18:26:31 ACTION-510? 18:26:31 ACTION-510 -- Tim Berners-Lee to write a note conveying the TAG's concerns re: the microdata -> RDF URI mappings in the HTML5 microdata draft Due: 2011-01-20 -- due 2011-03-09 -- OPEN 18:26:31 http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/510 18:28:05 ACTION-510 Due 2011-04-26 18:28:05 ACTION-510 Write a note conveying the TAG's concerns re: the microdata -> RDF URI mappings in the HTML5 microdata draft Due: 2011-01-20 due date now 2011-04-26 18:28:13 ACTIOn-404? 18:28:13 ACTION-404 -- Yves Lafon to track HTML WG ISSUE-27 rel-ownership -- due 2011-04-08 -- OPEN 18:28:13 http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/404 18:28:38 ACTION-404 Due 2011-04-26 18:28:38 ACTION-404 Track HTML WG ISSUE-27 rel-ownership due date now 2011-04-26 18:28:44 this aciton is tied to the IANA discussions 18:28:50 ACTION-341? 18:28:50 ACTION-341 -- Yves Lafon to follow up with Thomas about security review activities for HTML5 -- due 2011-04-05 -- OPEN 18:28:50 http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/341 18:29:40 larry: Re the rel-ownership issue check with Thomas and Mark N 18:29:44 yves: need to move fast 18:29:54 ACTION-341? 18:29:54 ACTION-341 -- Yves Lafon to follow up with Thomas about security review activities for HTML5 -- due 2011-04-05 -- OPEN 18:29:54 http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/341 18:31:15 ACTION-341 Due 2011-05-10 18:31:16 ACTION-341 Follow up with Thomas about security review activities for HTML5 due date now 2011-05-10 18:33:03 The URNP protocol may be used to dereference any URN. URNs are here the set of identifiers for which there exists no dereferencing protocol. 18:33:12 Larry can you post something on it to www-tag? I think it's worth generating some discussion on this issue. 18:33:13 -TimBL 18:33:48 I think "browser-centricity" is relevant to the question around packaging of web applications... 18:34:15 -DKA 18:34:17 -Noah_Mendelsohn 18:34:19 -plinss 18:34:20 -Yves 18:34:23 -JeniT 18:43:05 -Masinter 18:43:07 -Jonathan_Rees 18:43:07 TAG_Weekly()1:00PM has ended 18:43:08 Attendees were plinss, Noah_Mendelsohn, Jonathan_Rees, Yves, ht, JeniT, Masinter, DKA, TimBL 18:54:43 timbl__ has joined #tagmem 19:12:23 Larry has joined #tagmem 19:46:25 Norm has joined #tagmem 19:49:44 rrsagent, make logs public 19:49:49 rrsagent, pointer 19:49:49 See http://www.w3.org/2011/04/14-tagmem-irc#T19-49-49 20:19:45 Zakim has left #tagmem 21:37:29 timbl has joined #tagmem 22:34:16 timbl__ has joined #tagmem 23:13:15 timbl has joined #tagmem