14:57:35 RRSAgent has joined #html-a11y
14:57:35 logging to http://www.w3.org/2011/04/14-html-a11y-irc
14:57:37 RRSAgent, make logs world
14:57:37 Zakim has joined #html-a11y
14:57:39 Zakim, this will be 2119
14:57:39 ok, trackbot; I see WAI_PFWG(HTML TF)11:00AM scheduled to start in 3 minutes
14:57:40 Meeting: HTML Accessibility Task Force Teleconference
14:57:40 Date: 14 April 2011
14:57:49 zakim, this is 2119
14:57:49 oedipus, I see WAI_PFWG(HTML TF)11:00AM in the schedule but not yet started. Perhaps you mean "this will be 2119".
14:57:55 WAI_PFWG(HTML TF)11:00AM has now started
14:57:58 zakim, this will be 2119
14:57:58 ok, oedipus; I see WAI_PFWG(HTML TF)11:00AM scheduled to start in 3 minutes
14:58:18 I am dialed in but here nobody
14:58:26 janina has joined #html-a11y
14:59:15 zakim, aaaa is JF
14:59:15 +JF; got it
14:59:17 +??P33
14:59:28 zakim, ??P33 is janina
14:59:28 +janina; got it
14:59:29 zakim, ??P33 is Janina
14:59:30 I already had ??P33 as janina, janina
14:59:32 +??P36
14:59:45 zakim, ??P36 is me
14:59:45 +mranon; got it
15:00:12 +??P29
15:00:21 chair: Janina_Sajka
15:00:29 Zakim, ??P29 is me
15:00:29 +MikeSmith; got it
15:00:31 zakim, mute me
15:00:31 mranon should now be muted
15:00:39 agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-a11y/2011Apr/0111.html
15:01:09 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/04/14-html-a11y-minutes.html oedipus
15:01:22 Meeting: HTML-A11Y telecon
15:01:22 Chair: Janina_Sajka
15:01:22 agenda: this
15:01:22 agenda+ Identify Scribe http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/wiki/index.php?title=Scribe_List
15:01:22 agenda+ Text Descriptions Subteam Organization
15:01:23 agenda+ Subteam Reports: Canvas; ARIA Mappings; Media; Bug Triage
15:01:25 agenda+ Actions Review http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/track/actions/open
15:01:27 agenda+ Identify Scribe for 21 April
15:01:29 agenda+ be done
15:02:13 judy has joined #html-a11y
15:02:22 zakim, who is here?
15:02:29 +Michael_Cooper
15:02:33 On the phone I see Rich, JF, Gregory_Rosmaita, janina, mranon (muted), MikeSmith, Michael_Cooper
15:02:43 +Judy
15:02:49 On IRC I see judy, janina, Zakim, RRSAgent, richardschwerdtfe, mranon, JF, Joshue, MichaelC_ARN, davidb, MikeSmith, oedipus, eric_carlson, [tm], trackbot
15:02:49 zakim, pick a victim
15:02:56 Zakim, mute me
15:03:00 Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose janina
15:03:06 +??P9
15:03:10 MikeSmith should now be muted
15:03:37 Stevef has joined #html-a11y
15:04:19 scribe: Gregory_Rosmaita
15:04:26 scribenick: oedipus
15:04:53 zakim, take up agendum 1
15:04:53 agendum 1. "Identify Scribe http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/wiki/index.php?title=Scribe_List" taken up [from janina]
15:05:00 zakim, close agendum 1
15:05:01 agendum 1, Identify Scribe http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/wiki/index.php?title=Scribe_List, closed
15:05:03 I see 5 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
15:05:04 2. Text Descriptions Subteam Organization [from janina]
15:05:10 zakim, take up agendum 2
15:05:10 agendum 2. "Text Descriptions Subteam Organization" taken up [from janina]
15:05:31 +John_Foliot
15:05:36 eric_carlson_ has joined #html-a11y
15:05:50 JS: began discussion last week -- want to clarify what meant by text descriptions -- @summary, @longdesc, @poster, @alt, Figure/Figcaption, "discoverable metadata"
15:06:03 JS: subteam will make very specific recommendations on each topic
15:06:45 JS: aim is to not monopolize the TF call time -- been successful assigning areas of concern to TF for action
15:06:47 I am on another call at the moment but will track IRC.
15:07:04 JS: HTML5 going into last call -- need to ensure covers a11y as well as possible, and next steps
15:07:21 JS: appropriate name? time? scope?
15:07:36 q?
15:08:26 JF: talking about "discoverable metadata" -- data or metadata about an element that is given to the user on request -- @longdesc poster child for this -- vaule of longdesc not given until user requests
15:08:41 goes for @describedby as well as @longdesc -- discoverable
15:08:51 JF: like term "discoverable metadata"
15:08:54 plus 1
15:09:01 q+
15:09:12 q?
15:09:37 q+
15:09:45 JS: like to not do that for a particular reason -- no one opposes concept of discoverable metadata -- hard to see how is a11y issue per se
15:09:46 q+
15:09:50 zakim, who's here?
15:09:50 On the phone I see Rich, John_Foliot, Gregory_Rosmaita, janina, mranon (muted), MikeSmith (muted), Michael_Cooper, Judy, Steve_Faulkner, Eric_Carlson
15:09:53 On IRC I see eric_carlson_, Stevef, judy, janina, Zakim, RRSAgent, richardschwerdtfe, mranon, JF, Joshue, MichaelC_ARN, davidb, MikeSmith, oedipus, eric_carlson, [tm], trackbot
15:10:34 JS: make discoverable, end of story -- doesn't need to be identified only as an a11y issue -- concerned may be red herring to pull us off topic -- agree that is what we are talking about -- metadata and data that is universally discoverable
15:11:00 q?
15:11:04 ack m
15:11:28 MC: name suggestions drawn from WCAG -- "text alternatives" (WCAG req) -- if more generic, "fallback content" (broader, but about alternatives), if broader, "programmatically determined accessible content"
15:12:02 JB: ditto JS' concerns about "discoverable metadata" -- interested in MC's suggestions
15:12:05 ack ju
15:12:52 JB: maybe just go with text alternates
15:12:54 GJR: not "fallback content" -- text equivalents, not fallback -- fallback for image is icon denoting image should be here
15:13:03 +1
15:13:11 +1
15:13:30 +q
15:13:48 ack oe
15:14:11 q?
15:14:17 ack j
15:14:20 GJR: don't object to text alternatives
15:14:39 JF: @summary for TABLE -- no image, so no fallback -- need to keep as broad as possible
15:14:42 q?
15:15:42 JF: subteam discussed last week was related to chairs' decision on @summary for TABLE -- this is "discoverable metadata" -- provided by author to aid those who need additional aid
15:15:49 +q to ask if Hixies latest outburst on how little he thinks of W3C process calls into question some of the decisions make regarding a11y?
15:15:51 q?
15:15:55 -q
15:16:30 JF: push-and-pull -- if basic HTML pushed from client to renderers -- if need more info, can pull it using mechanisms provided (@summary @longdesc) fits larger model -- additinoal content provided by authors for a wide variety of users, not just screen reader users
15:16:53 +Cynthia_Shelly
15:17:04 -Michael_Cooper
15:17:05 q+
15:17:06 JF: what is scope/goal of subteam?
15:17:10 q?
15:17:10 q?
15:17:27 ack j
15:17:28 JS: not to make discoverable, but to ensure that the necessary mechanisms needed exist
15:19:13 JB: suggested sub-group on small cluster of topics because: 1) pattern of rejection of a11y feature retention proposals; 2) HTML5 moving target needs to move along with a11y support intact as w3c document; 3) lot of work, need unified stable proposals to take advantage of normal process for redress of a feature bing depreceated/removed without equal or superior mechanism
15:19:27 JB: last week question was on consensus on formal objection
15:19:55 JB: some thought might be futile, some thought not highest priority, some thought could be handled by expanding ARIA's scope
15:20:12 JB: perhaps there is an objection the group would want to present --
15:20:15 q?
15:20:18 q+
15:21:14 JB: expedited appeal -- wouldn't be convenient for chairs, may not be smothest way to go but not yet having that conversation
15:21:30 JB: subgroup setting could be helpful to make process options available and timeframes
15:21:43 +q
15:21:48 q?
15:21:54 JB: reaffirm previous technical consensus or clarifying position to restore a11y support
15:22:14 JB: idea--move quickly, gather ideas, process constructively
15:22:22 JOC: Hixies latest outburst on how little he thinks of W3C process calls into question some of the decisions make regarding a11y?
15:22:39 +Michael_Cooper
15:22:39 q?
15:22:45 ack oedipus
15:23:09 q+
15:23:57 JF: mentioned technical barriers/issues around reinstation of a11y features -- there are NO technical issues -- lack of support in GUI environment
15:24:31 JB: don't believe there are technical barriers to a11y -- there are misconceptions though that need to be dispelled point-by-point
15:24:57 JB: fielded many complaints about chairs' decisions on a11y -- need to avail ourselves of process provided by chairs
15:25:22 JF: formal objection -- is goal to work towards very robust FO that addresses all of these issues?
15:25:32 JB: don't want to presupose groups' consensus
15:25:48 JB: did very quick poll last week -- TF divided -- would like to probe that
15:26:00 JB: wonder why not more FOs being generated from TF
15:26:46 JB: restore4a11y proposal by GJR could be useful form of objection to have on table -- have to look carefully at how process is expected to happen at FO stage to see if something useful there
15:27:14 GJR: change proposal, not FO
15:27:14 q?
15:28:01 ack judy
15:28:15 ack JF
15:28:20 ack cyn
15:28:38 q+
15:28:47 CS: couple of issues: 1) why no FO? discussions with HTML WG chairs, said FOs are for post-LC processing
15:28:56 JB: that's not the whole picture
15:29:10 CS: 2) decisions just came down in last couple of weeks --
15:29:50 -MikeSmith
15:29:54 +q
15:29:59 CS: 3) seems as if there is a whole category of things being rejected -- nexus "extra work for developers" and "hidden metadata" -- our approach is to push for native semantics, and to look at ARIA as extra work added on for devs/authors
15:30:17 q?
15:30:19 CS: A11y API stuff or custom engineering best handled with cross-cutting technology such as ARIA
15:30:23 +??P22
15:30:40 CS: devs already implementing HTML5 -- for some, can plug holes perhaps with ARIA
15:30:44 q?
15:30:53 JB: hope CS signs up for subgroup
15:31:07 CS: as long as meetings don't start at 7am PT
15:31:15 JB: LauraC volunteered via email
15:31:44 Zakim, mute me
15:31:44 sorry, MikeSmith, I do not know which phone connection belongs to you
15:31:55 Zakim, ??P22 is me
15:31:55 +MikeSmith; got it
15:31:57 Zakim, mute me
15:31:57 MikeSmith was already muted, MikeSmith
15:31:58 JB: timing issue with regard FO --
15:32:59 JB: timing distinction -- FOs not taken up until CR stage, but an important exception -- any FO can be appealed to director, can be appeal for expedited review -- can be considered nearly immediately --
15:33:14 JB: not convenient or welcome, but if need to address now, then need to address now
15:33:22 JB: surprised at what i am hearing
15:33:34 s/not taken up/not normally taken up/
15:33:58 JS: not on table at time of @longdesc conversation
15:34:27 JB: hope to attend TF meetings regularly to keep up on strategy and getting native accessibility in addition to what is added via ARIA
15:34:31 q?
15:34:36 ack ju
15:34:50 JB: question of timing: deprecation, rather than removal, then take time to find how to do in truly corss-disability way
15:35:20 q+
15:35:20 JB: can flesh out these questions in subgroup -- need to coalesce around responses that keep a11y in W3C's flagship publication
15:35:57 JF: personally, have problem saying: "here is aria stuff for people using AT" -- that is wrong and wrong-headed -- real reservations saying "catch the rest with ARIA"
15:36:04 ack JF
15:36:06 q+
15:36:13 q?
15:36:21 ack st
15:36:49 SF: 1 point in regards what judy said about deprecate not remove -- that would involve reintroducing concept of deprecated
15:36:55 +1 to GJR, ARIA shouldn't be just about users of AT and then HTML 5 for everyone else, I think this kind of fork is an unfortunatel by product of W3C process and HTML 5 politics.
15:36:57 JS: have "deprecated but conforming"
15:37:14 plus 1 to Joshue's IRC comments
15:37:15 q?
15:37:17 s/unfortunatel/unfortunate
15:37:33 SF: this terminology is not part of HTML5
15:37:39 ack cyn
15:37:58 -Michael_Cooper
15:38:06 CS: obsolete but conforming is a strange term but makes sense
15:38:18 CS: obsolete versus obsolete but conforming
15:38:56 CS: native semantics: there are diff ways to think about what native semantics mean -- i mean primarily things that are part of what devs are doing anyway -- name from text on button-- additional stuff devs have to add
15:39:06 CS: slightly diff way of drawing the line
15:39:08 +??P17
15:39:13 ack rich
15:40:30 RS: ARIA not a bridging technology -- things like standard widgets have to be made fully interoperable with AT without addding ARIA -- for things such as @summary @title -- ARIA meant to be cross-cutting tech to support AT -- way to apply a11y semantics for SVG and CANVAS and HTML
15:40:45 RS: canvas used to be separate from HTML
15:41:29 RS: there are advantages to having declarative API consistent across elements that can be controlled by AT -- not a bridging tech, but an a11y API feature that is declariative
15:41:39 RS: 80% less work to do same thing on desktop apps
15:41:41 q+
15:42:05 JS: anyone can't live with name "text alternatives" for subteam to keep in sync with WCAG
15:42:47 JB: could approve general aim of subgroup, put out provisional title, figure out membership, and get started
15:43:00 JB: subgroup can figure out naming issue
15:43:04 JS: time for meeting?
15:43:16 I wish that were true John
15:43:28 JB: possible to have meeting at us eastern 11:30 am to 1 pm
15:43:44 ... personal experiences
15:43:54 JB: Laura will be able to participate to a larger degree at that time
15:44:00 JS: works for me
15:44:27 +q is there going to be a text @alt group?
15:44:32 -q
15:44:48 CS: not on regular basis
15:44:56 GJR: immediately follows ARIA caucus
15:45:00 RS: could do most of time
15:45:01 -MikeSmith
15:45:08 While not a great morning person, I can work with Monday 11:30 AM Eastern
15:45:10 SF: could make part of it
15:45:17 GJR: can do entire meeting
15:45:24 JF: early, but can attend
15:45:43 +??P22
15:45:47 Zakim, ??P22 is me
15:45:47 +MikeSmith; got it
15:45:49 Zakim, mute me
15:45:49 MikeSmith should now be muted
15:45:56 zakim, unmute me
15:45:56 mranon should no longer be muted
15:45:58 JB: like this to be a provisional time and date -- Monday, April 17 at 11:30 AM Boston time for 90 minutes
15:46:12 I can try also, depending on impending child.
15:46:20 MR: for me not good time -- perhaps can get colleague to join, but she isn't part of TF
15:46:35 JB: JS, MC and MS can talk to you about getting person plugged in
15:46:40 MR: thanks will follow up
15:47:00 MC: want to be involved but don't need another meeting
15:47:04 JB: is time ok?
15:47:08 MC: yes
15:47:13 JB: any other objections?
15:47:43 +1 to having Judy 's arm twisted
15:48:03 proposed RESOLUTION: first "text alternatives" subgroup meeting will be held on 17 April 2011 at 11:30 am Boston time for 90 minutes under Judy's aegis
15:48:55 proposed RESOLUTION: first "text alternatives" subgroup meeting will be held on Monday, 18 April 2011 at 11:30 am Boston time for 90 minutes under Judy's aegis
15:49:18 q?
15:49:22 ack jud
15:50:20 JB: do intend to try to make sure process options are clear
15:50:58 JB: intend to ensure have good consensus-based discussion with clear understanding of all of the process issues
15:51:26 proposed RESOLUTION: first "text alternatives" subgroup meeting will be held on Monday, 18 April 2011 at 11:30 am Boston time for 90 minutes under Judy's aegis
15:51:54 +1 to that resolution
15:51:57 RESOLUTION: first "text alternatives" subgroup meeting will be held on Monday, 18 April 2011 at 11:30 am Boston time for 90 minutes under Judy's aegis
15:52:09 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/04/14-html-a11y-minutes.html oedipus
15:52:21 RS: use what channel?
15:53:01 JB & JS: will announce the channel and other meeting info
15:53:05 TOPIC: Canvas
15:53:17