09:02:12 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #mediafrag
09:02:12 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2011/04/13-mediafrag-irc
09:02:14 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs public
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09:02:16 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be IA_MFWG
09:02:16 <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see IA_MFWG()5:00AM scheduled to start 2 minutes ago
09:02:17 <trackbot> Meeting: Media Fragments Working Group Teleconference
09:02:17 <trackbot> Date: 13 April 2011
09:02:51 <Zakim> IA_MFWG()5:00AM has now started
09:03:00 <Zakim> + +46.3.13.48.aaaa
09:03:04 <foolip> Zakim, I am aaaa
09:03:04 <Zakim> +foolip; got it
09:03:29 <Zakim> + +33.4.93.00.aabb
09:03:50 <raphael> Chair: Raphael
09:04:00 <raphael> Regrets: Erik, Thomas
09:04:14 <Zakim> + +329331aacc
09:04:16 <Zakim> +Yves
09:04:20 <raphael> Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-media-fragment/2011Apr/0042.html
09:04:40 <jackjansen> jackjansen has joined #mediafrag
09:05:11 <jackjansen> zakim, code?
09:05:11 <Zakim> the conference code is 3724 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.26.46.79.03 tel:+44.203.318.0479), jackjansen
09:05:12 <raphael> Present: Yves, Raphael, Davy, Philip, Jack
09:05:23 <raphael> Topic: 1. ADMIN
09:05:28 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/04/13-mediafrag-minutes.html raphael
09:05:48 <Zakim> + +31.20.592.aadd
09:05:54 <jackjansen> zakim, aadd is me
09:05:54 <Zakim> +jackjansen; got it
09:07:10 <raphael> PROPOSED to accept the minutes of the last week telecon, http://www.w3.org/2011/04/06-mediafrag-minutes.html ?
09:07:12 <foolip> +1
09:07:13 <raphael> +1
09:07:14 <davy> +1
09:07:18 <raphael> minutes accepted
09:07:23 <raphael> Scribe: raphael
09:07:29 <raphael> Scribenick: raphael
09:08:06 <raphael> TPAC 2011, http://www.w3.org/2011/11/TPAC/
09:08:36 <foolip> foolip has left #mediafrag
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09:09:24 <raphael> Raphael: do you think we should meet?
09:09:40 <raphael> Jack: hard to say now, because we don't know what would be the status of the work
09:10:08 <raphael> Yves: I think if we need a F2F, better in Europe and earlier
09:10:53 <raphael> Raphael: Media Fragment WG does NOT plan to meet at TPAC
09:11:30 <raphael> Topic: 2. SPEC MAINTENANCE
09:11:55 <raphael> Precision of #xywh percent
09:12:10 <raphael> ... thread starting at http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-media-fragment/2011Apr/0022.html
09:12:29 <raphael> Philip: two issues
09:12:35 <foolip> rounding issue: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-media-fragment/2011Apr/0011.html
09:12:36 <raphael> ... first one is rounding
09:12:50 <raphael> ... second one is the precision
09:13:16 <raphael> ... what is the use case, e.g. cropping a video?
09:13:19 <jackjansen> q+
09:13:40 <raphael> ... do we really need the percent syntax?
09:14:29 <raphael> ... the use case seems to be the existence of multiple encoding in multiple resolutions for the same video
09:14:34 <raphael> zakim, ack jackjansen
09:14:34 <Zakim> I see no one on the speaker queue
09:14:48 <raphael> Jack: I think you're right
09:15:03 <raphael> ... the % syntax is for very simple cases, such as take the half of a video
09:15:24 <raphael> Philip: but when does it make sense to do this?
09:16:53 <raphael> ... the change of 4/3 to 16/9 implies percent with decimal
09:16:57 <raphael> ... so our syntax does not do this
09:17:24 <raphael> Yves: aspect ratio could be handled with a new 'aspect' keyword
09:17:35 <raphael> ... but Sylvia was against this, because it is too complex
09:17:41 <raphael> ... and not enough uses of this
09:18:16 <davy> q+
09:18:32 <raphael> ... I'm not for or against the % syntax
09:18:45 <raphael> ... we can let it and see whether there will be implementations
09:19:17 <raphael> Jack: I think we should keep it and see whether there will be implementations
09:19:23 <raphael> ... and take it out if no tools
09:19:29 <davy> http://ninsuna.elis.ugent.be/Media/Showcase/Radiohead
09:19:40 <raphael> ... rather than inventing decimal percentages
09:19:50 <raphael> Davy: we DO use the percent syntax !
09:19:59 <davy_> davy_ has joined #mediafrag
09:20:04 <raphael> ... in the example above, we need the % to swith resolution
09:20:07 <foolip> q+
09:20:20 <raphael> zakim, ack davy
09:20:20 <Zakim> I see foolip on the speaker queue
09:20:40 <raphael> Philip: you have a server and each resolution have different URI
09:21:09 <raphael> Davy: yes we could do the computation on the server, but now, the annotations are independent of the resolution
09:21:22 <raphael> ... annotations are about logical URI
09:21:49 <Yves> conneg on user-agent for different resolution
09:22:06 <raphael> Jack: the syntax is then more interesting for annotating than cropping
09:23:46 <raphael> Yves: conneg on UA for different resolution, and cropping are "roughly"
09:24:10 <raphael> Philip: is this implemented anywhere?
09:24:56 <raphael> Yves: Opera is adapting content for mobile devices ... they do adapt resolution ?
09:25:17 <raphael> Philip: yes, but you still have different URI
09:25:22 <raphael> ... for caching purposes
09:25:30 <raphael> Yves: not in the case where it is done via proxy
09:25:39 <raphael> Philip: seems like a corner case
09:26:30 <raphael> Jack: I think the use case from Davy, mainly for annotation purpose, is an appealing one
09:26:41 <raphael> ... and not for browsers
09:26:47 <raphael> Philip: should we write this in the spec?
09:28:36 <raphael> Raphael: proposal to keep it in the spec and see the implementations that will do something with it
09:28:40 <raphael> ... no disagreement
09:28:58 <raphael> Topic: 3. TEST CASES
09:29:03 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/04/13-mediafrag-minutes.html raphael
09:29:24 <raphael> Davy: first some changes, I have implemented the changes according to last week
09:29:26 <raphael> ... more filters
09:29:41 <raphael> ... more test cases (the ones from Philip)
09:30:01 <davy> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-media-fragment/2011Apr/0031.html
09:30:13 <raphael> ... I think we should first discuss http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-media-fragment/2011Apr/0031.html
09:30:37 <raphael> Davy: Invalid syntax
09:30:46 <raphael> ... #t=3,4,4 is invalid syntax
09:31:06 <raphael> ... what the UA should do
09:31:39 <raphael> ... disagreement: UA only requests setup information (Silvia) vs whole resource is requested by the UA (Philip)
09:32:36 <raphael> Jack: I don't really care as soon as it is consistent
09:32:48 <raphael> Yves: the same
09:34:03 <raphael> ACTION: raphael to ask Silvia if she objects to the decision of requesting the entire resource in case of an invalid syntax
09:34:03 <trackbot> Sorry, couldn't find user - raphael
09:34:09 <raphael> ACTION: troncy to ask Silvia if she objects to the decision of requesting the entire resource in case of an invalid syntax
09:34:09 <trackbot> Created ACTION-216 - Ask Silvia if she objects to the decision of requesting the entire resource in case of an invalid syntax [on Raphaël Troncy - due 2011-04-20].
09:34:35 <raphael> Davy: Invalid Semantics
09:34:58 <raphael> ... case a): #t=7,3 is invalid semantically ... again same possibility
09:36:25 <foolip> Range: t:npt=3-7;include-setup
09:36:36 <raphael> Philip: what does it mean include-setup? Does it mean to implement the new headers?
09:36:53 <raphael> ... I'm not in favor of implementing this 
09:37:16 <raphael> ... in particular when browsers have other means to receive the setup data
09:37:32 <davy> Range: include-setup
09:37:43 <tomayac> FWIW, in mediafragments.js, all incorrect parameter configurations are silently ignored, a warning is raised if verbose mode is enabled
09:38:23 <tomayac> (following the meeting on IRC)
09:39:09 <raphael> Jack: for temporal fragment, what is important is the user experience
09:39:27 <davy_> davy_ has joined #mediafrag
09:39:32 <raphael> ... we do not care if he uses byte ranges or our newly introduced mechanism
09:39:38 <raphael> Raphael: BIG +1 to Jack
09:43:07 <raphael> Jack: so if I put #t=7,3, I got the timeline and no portion selected
09:43:16 <raphael> ... should not be the same with #t=banana?
09:43:47 <raphael> Philip: there are things that will be harder to detect during parser
09:43:52 <raphael> s/parser/parsing
09:44:11 <raphael> ... e.g. #xywh=150%
09:44:40 <jackjansen> Note that I put up that suggestion (t=7,3 vs t=banana) as a point for discussion, not as my standpoint.
09:47:08 <raphael> Philip: so #t=7,3 will be ignored, first frame displayed, and NOT the frame at second 7 or 3
09:47:24 <tomayac> in mediafragments.js, most basic things get captured via regexps (like t=2,banana), however, harder ones like start < end are harder (given all the options)
09:47:25 <raphael> ... but #t=15,20 for a video of a duration of 10s will be different
09:48:05 <tomayac> i cant check for end <= video_duration
09:48:50 <tomayac> the default assumption in the lib is to always return the whole resource if anything cant be parsed correctly
09:49:50 <raphael> ... and what about #t=20,80 when the video is of duration 50s ?
09:52:08 <raphael> Davy: come back to #t=15,20 for a video of a duration of 10s 
09:52:21 <raphael> ... I'm not saying that the UA should issue a range request
09:52:32 <raphael> ... but if it does, then server should reply with a 416
09:52:38 <raphael> Jack: what is the user experience?
09:53:27 <raphael> Davy: I agree with Philip, the player should seek towards the end (display the last frame?)
09:53:33 <raphael> ... to be consistent with HTML5
09:53:35 <silvia> silvia has joined #mediafrag
09:54:43 <jackjansen> silvia, the good news is that we've now been able to give you heaps of action points:-)
09:54:58 <silvia> hahaha, sure!
09:55:18 <silvia> I probably just checked my calendar for the usual time, rather than your announcement - sorry :(
09:55:34 <silvia> were you able to agree on things?
09:56:43 <foolip> do we need to support media that doesn't start at 0 ?
09:56:50 <raphael> ACTION: davy to edit the specification for precising what is the user experience when there is an invalid time range
09:56:51 <trackbot> Created ACTION-217 - Edit the specification for precising what is the user experience when there is an invalid time range [on Davy Van Deursen - due 2011-04-20].
09:57:10 <foolip> that comes up in the test case review, let's discuss in due course
09:57:15 <raphael> ACTION: jack to carrefully review the changes made by Davy that will most likely be all over the palce
09:57:15 <trackbot> Created ACTION-218 - Carrefully review the changes made by Davy that will most likely be all over the palce [on Jack Jansen - due 2011-04-20].
09:57:19 <raphael> s/palce/place
09:58:48 <raphael> Raphael: should we postpone the discussion "do we need to support media that doesn't start at 0 ?" to next week ?
09:58:54 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/04/13-mediafrag-minutes.html raphael
09:59:14 <raphael> Jack: let's do that on the mailing list
09:59:23 <raphael> ... Dave Singer may have an opinion
09:59:24 <foolip> so, I was muted and afk, so unable to unmute
09:59:29 <foolip> I'm fine with postponing
09:59:41 <Zakim> + +61.2.801.2.aaee
09:59:49 <foolip> ok
10:02:20 <raphael> Raphael: summarizing the first issue for Silvia
10:02:52 <raphael> Silvia: I'm fine with requesting the whole resource
10:03:37 <jackjansen> I have to run: next appointment. See you next week!
10:03:45 <silvia> zakim, aaee is me
10:03:45 <Zakim> +silvia; got it
10:03:46 <Zakim> -jackjansen
10:03:49 <raphael> ... I'm not able to remember when the include-setup will be used
10:04:12 <raphael> close ACGTION-217
10:04:15 <raphael> close ACTION-217
10:04:16 <trackbot> ACTION-217 Edit the specification for precising what is the user experience when there is an invalid time range closed
10:04:36 <raphael> close ACTION-216
10:04:36 <trackbot> ACTION-216 Ask Silvia if she objects to the decision of requesting the entire resource in case of an invalid syntax closed
10:05:26 <raphael> Topic: 4. AOB
10:05:33 <raphael> Regrets from Davy for next week
10:05:47 <Zakim> -raphael
10:05:47 <foolip> bye
10:05:48 <Zakim> -Yves
10:05:49 <Zakim> -Davy
10:05:51 <Zakim> -silvia
10:05:56 <Zakim> -foolip
10:05:58 <Zakim> IA_MFWG()5:00AM has ended
10:05:59 <Zakim> Attendees were +46.3.13.48.aaaa, foolip, +33.4.93.00.aabb, raphael, +329331aacc, Yves, Davy, +31.20.592.aadd, jackjansen, +61.2.801.2.aaee, silvia
10:06:10 <raphael> Present+ Silvia
10:06:18 <raphael> ... we will continue discussing test cases next week
10:06:32 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/04/13-mediafrag-minutes.html raphael
10:07:46 <raphael> ScribeOptions: -final -noEmbedDiagnostics
10:07:50 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/04/13-mediafrag-minutes.html raphael
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