IRC log of media on 2011-04-11

Timestamps are in UTC.

21:28:00 [RRSAgent]
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21:28:00 [RRSAgent]
logging to http://www.w3.org/2011/04/11-media-irc
21:28:19 [janina]
zakim, this will be WAI_PFWG(A11Y)
21:28:19 [Zakim]
I do not see a conference matching that name scheduled within the next hour, janina
21:28:56 [janina]
zakim, this will be WAI_PFWG(A11Y)
21:28:56 [Zakim]
I do not see a conference matching that name scheduled within the next hour, janina
21:29:06 [janina]
janina has left #media
21:30:17 [janina]
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21:30:42 [janina]
zakim, code?
21:30:42 [Zakim]
the conference code is hidden, janina
21:31:21 [janina]
People, I'm trying to get some W3C help about our telecon channel
21:31:50 [frankolivier]
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21:32:11 [janina]
All, I'm trying to get our telecon channel unblocked
21:33:38 [janina]
zakim, room for 10
21:33:38 [Zakim]
I don't understand 'room for 10', janina
21:33:54 [eric_carlson]
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21:34:15 [janina]
zakim, room for ten?
21:34:15 [Zakim]
I don't understand your question, janina.
21:34:22 [janina]
zakim, room for 10
21:34:22 [Zakim]
I don't understand 'room for 10', janina
21:34:29 [janina]
zakim, room for 10?
21:34:31 [Zakim]
ok, janina; conference Team_(media)21:34Z scheduled with code 2119 (A11Y) for 60 minutes until 2234Z
21:34:37 [eric_carlson]
what is the pass code for the Zakim bridge?
21:34:43 [Zakim]
Team_(media)21:34Z has now started
21:34:50 [Zakim]
+??P1
21:35:14 [Zakim]
+Eric_Carlson
21:35:20 [eric_carlson]
never mind, I am in now
21:35:50 [Zakim]
+[Microsoft]
21:36:12 [Zakim]
+silvia
21:37:05 [Zakim]
+ +44.154.558.aaaa
21:37:44 [silvia]
silvia has joined #media
21:37:47 [Zakim]
+mark
21:38:05 [Zakim]
+??P5
21:38:19 [janina]
I'm working on getting Zakim to let me in
21:39:48 [silvia]
zakim, Sean is aaaa
21:39:48 [Zakim]
sorry, silvia, I do not recognize a party named 'Sean'
21:40:01 [silvia]
zakim, aaaa is Sean
21:40:01 [Zakim]
+Sean; got it
21:40:10 [mark]
mark has joined #media
21:40:45 [janina]
zakim, ??P1 is Bob
21:40:45 [Zakim]
+Bob; got it
21:40:46 [frankolivier]
zakim, frankolivier is [Microsoft]
21:40:46 [Zakim]
sorry, frankolivier, I do not recognize a party named 'frankolivier'
21:40:58 [janina]
zakim, ??P5 is janina
21:40:58 [Zakim]
+janina; got it
21:41:07 [janina]
zakim, who's here?
21:41:07 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Bob, Eric_Carlson, [Microsoft], silvia, Sean, mark, janina
21:41:09 [Zakim]
On IRC I see mark, silvia, eric_carlson, frankolivier, janina, RRSAgent, Sean, oedipus_away, Zakim
21:41:37 [janina]
zakim, [Microsoft] is Frank
21:41:37 [Zakim]
+Frank; got it
21:43:04 [silvia]
TOPIC: Issue-152 Multitrack http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/wiki/Media_Multitrack_Change_Proposals_Summary
21:43:33 [janina]
scribe: janina
21:43:50 [janina]
rrsagent, make log public
21:43:56 [janina]
rrsagent, make minutes
21:43:56 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/04/11-media-minutes.html janina
21:45:41 [janina]
Silvia: Believes Ian's proposal is best for moving forward; superior to proposals 2 & 3
21:45:58 [janina]
Silvia: Makes all media elements
21:46:12 [janina]
Silvia: Proposes to walk through the proposal
21:46:34 [janina]
Silvia: Beginning look at Proposal #4 ...
21:48:19 [janina]
Bob, Question about exclusive track list, will that change?
21:48:37 [Sean]
q+
21:48:44 [janina]
Silvia: Exclusive and multiple track list come in as attribs
21:49:00 [janina]
Silvia: Ian seems to believe we can only have one video at a time, therefore exclusive
21:49:12 [janina]
Bob: So how to do a mosaic of multiple videos
21:49:49 [janina]
Silvia: So, you use separate video elements on the page and style through CSS, create a controller to get them to act together
21:50:35 [janina]
Silvia: Or, if they're all inband tracks, then you need IDs on each track and ref using media fragment URI
21:51:06 [janina]
Eric: It would work, but it makes it difficult to have generic scripts for unknown content
21:52:22 [janina]
Mark: If you create one, then the others are exposed and you can go forward
21:52:44 [janina]
Eric: For Apple, this would be a step backwards because we already support multiple tracks; would be a step back for us
21:52:55 [janina]
Silvia: So how does it now work?
21:53:05 [janina]
Eric: You display however it was authored
21:53:26 [janina]
Eric: QT has layers and each track is on video matrix that controls where it displays
21:53:39 [sean]
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21:54:07 [janina]
Silvia: So, if it's set up one way, PIP, for instance, how to display differently
21:54:38 [janina]
Eric: Either in script by disaling all video not to be displayed; then using as source
21:55:01 [janina]
Silvia: So we need to change from exclusive to multiple where we have default rendering, but could be changed as desired
21:55:05 [janina]
Eric: Think that's right
21:55:28 [janina]
Eric: Don't see the exclusivity as helpful
21:56:02 [janina]
Silvia: Think he's thinking about slides with someone addressing a meeting, but I agree I'd rather leave to a browser
21:56:26 [janina]
Silvia: It would be nice to share a video that can render multiple video
21:56:52 [janina]
Silvia: Suggest tracklist be replaced as multiple, not exclusive
21:57:06 [janina]
Silvia: Not sure how some browsers will react, Opera ...
21:57:27 [janina]
Eric: WebM can only have a single video file
21:57:48 [janina]
Eric: Wonders Frank's opinion?
21:57:58 [janina]
Frank: We don't yet support multiple tracks
21:58:11 [janina]
Frank: We support that it's up to the UA to do this
21:58:38 [janina]
Eric: More than one video track in a single file is highly uncommon, but we shouldn't have it as a restriction in the spec
21:59:16 [janina]
Mark: In future, if pointing to a manifest, it will be more common; Should not require to download two videos when only one is to be displayed
22:00:13 [janina]
janina: We do have the user reqs which specify sign language video track
22:01:56 [janina]
janina: Suggesting we check against user reqs when we think we have the engineering we like, just be be sure we got everything
22:02:02 [janina]
Silvia: I plan to do code examples
22:02:50 [janina]
Eric: No reason to restrict audio tracks
22:02:55 [janina]
Sean: Agrees
22:03:43 [janina]
Silvia: Our proposal always added kind label language and name ...
22:04:14 [sean]
q-
22:04:15 [janina]
Silvia: Should we extend Ian's to also have gets for all four of these?
22:04:53 [janina]
Silvia: Label is also important for creating menus
22:05:03 [janina]
Mark: Agree with both
22:05:05 [janina]
Eric: Also
22:06:32 [janina]
Silvia: Do we have use cases where we want looping?
22:06:43 [janina]
Eric: Absolutely, the same as looping on an individual file
22:07:11 [janina]
Eric: Suggest reset time to 0 when rendering reaches $DURATION
22:08:33 [janina]
Silvia: Good question, is it enough the group has loop state? Or each individual track?
22:08:47 [janina]
Sean: Feel like we're badly reinventing SMIL
22:08:47 [Zakim]
+Judy
22:09:25 [janina]
Silvia: SMIL does much more, though
22:10:54 [janina]
Sean: Not suggesting we adopt all of SMIL; simply saying SMIL has support for everything we're discussing
22:11:09 [janina]
Silvia: Think it would be difficult, but maybe worthy of the exercise?
22:11:22 [janina]
Sean: Best we make sure we don't do something incompatible with that model
22:11:37 [janina]
Silvia: Won't be used in the same context as SMIL, so why does it need to be compatible?
22:11:53 [janina]
Judy: We are hearing from multiple directions that alignment would be useful
22:13:19 [sean]
ACTION: Sean Explore reusing SMIL semantics for repeat
22:14:15 [Zakim]
-Judy
22:15:54 [janina]
Silvia: Exploring metadata events ....
22:16:49 [janina]
Sean: I'm think about this a bit differently, splitting controller away from network parts
22:17:21 [janina]
Sean: That way controller need not be explicitly created, as there's always one by default
22:17:41 [janina]
Silvia: Is that basically just an IDL change?
22:17:43 [janina]
Sean: Yes.
22:18:20 [janina]
Sean: But the network states are separate
22:18:31 [silvia]
zakim, mute me
22:18:31 [Zakim]
silvia should now be muted
22:18:33 [janina]
Eric: Would you leave the existing interfaces?
22:18:49 [janina]
Sean: It's just rearranging them, it's just more tidy
22:19:14 [janina]
Eric: I find this interesting, but hesitate very much to remove anything we already have for compatability concerns
22:19:23 [janina]
Sean: You just say they map to the controller
22:19:39 [janina]
Sean: My problem, as currently we have things, is that the controller need always be explicitly created
22:19:49 [janina]
Sean: I'd rather it were implicit
22:20:02 [janina]
Eric: Actually, if you have elements in the same group, it is already implicit
22:20:23 [janina]
Sean: I don't like that it doesn't do that if it's not in a group
22:20:33 [janina]
Eric: Yes, that's an interesting approach
22:20:37 [Zakim]
-silvia
22:21:53 [janina]
Eric: One issue listed in Wiki we haven't yet discussed is default controls, think it's important to have UA default controls
22:22:18 [janina]
Frank: So, how would that work? A controller element positioned on the page?
22:22:35 [janina]
Sean: yes, perhaps a shadow DOM construct
22:23:06 [janina]
Sean: So, it might be something we could apply styling to
22:23:16 [janina]
Sean: And would be available by default
22:23:46 [janina]
janina: Asks if anyone is opposed?
22:23:52 [janina]
Eric: Not sure, but am conflicted
22:24:31 [janina]
Sean: So this is a thought expiriment -- there's the shadow DOM, but no representation
22:24:49 [janina]
Eric: Yes, a firewall between the shadow and the parent, so that js can't get to them
22:25:08 [janina]
Frank: We would have the same limitation in IE
22:25:19 [Zakim]
+Judy
22:25:47 [janina]
Eric: I haven't yet thought of a way to make it work
22:25:58 [janina]
Frank: Question about proposal 4
22:26:18 [janina]
Frank: How to get track list count --- Ah, I see it now!
22:27:12 [janina]
Frank: So, media controller maps to some amount of UI elements in background
22:27:32 [janina]
Frank: Is there a simple mapping here? A union of all the elements in the group?
22:27:36 [janina]
Eric: I'd say a union
22:28:22 [janina]
Eric: I personally believe we should expect all samples to be played to be loaded first
22:30:21 [janina]
Mark: Do we have a definitive list of track kinds that we want proposed for getkind?
22:30:26 [janina]
Sean: Think it's still open ended
22:30:40 [janina]
Mark: suggest we would want to close that at some point--a basic set?
22:30:44 [janina]
Sean: Yes, but extensible
22:30:51 [janina]
Frank: Audio, video and text?
22:31:11 [janina]
Mark: Thought it would tell you "texted video description," "sign language translation," etc
22:31:36 [janina]
Frank: What's the current thinking of displaying multiple text tracks simoultaneously
22:32:51 [janina]
Sean: We're not restricted on audio, so why on text?
22:32:58 [janina]
Frank: Yes, but not currently a spec req
22:33:46 [janina]
Sean: So, at minimum, text for each audio track
22:39:55 [janina]
general discussion of displaying multiple text tracks? spec reqs?
22:40:35 [janina]
Frank: There are three states, off, (no events and nothing displayed); showing (js generated and siaplayed); hidden (nothing displayed, but events fired)
22:40:50 [janina]
Eric: And if off, data not loaded
22:45:33 [Zakim]
-Bob
22:45:35 [Zakim]
-Eric_Carlson
22:45:36 [Zakim]
-Frank
22:45:39 [Zakim]
-mark
22:45:52 [Zakim]
-Sean
22:45:54 [Zakim]
-Judy
22:45:55 [Zakim]
-janina
22:45:55 [Zakim]
Team_(media)21:34Z has ended
22:45:57 [Zakim]
Attendees were Eric_Carlson, silvia, +44.154.558.aaaa, mark, Sean, Bob, janina, Frank, Judy
22:46:07 [janina]
zakim, make minutes
22:46:07 [Zakim]
I don't understand 'make minutes', janina
22:46:16 [janina]
rrsagent, make minutes
22:46:16 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/04/11-media-minutes.html janina
23:00:18 [eric_carlson]
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