21:31:37 RRSAgent has joined #html-a11y
21:31:37 logging to http://www.w3.org/2011/04/06-html-a11y-irc
21:31:49 zakim this will be 2119
21:32:05 zakim, who's here?
21:32:05 apparently WAI_PFWG(A11Y)3:00PM has ended, janina
21:32:06 On IRC I see RRSAgent, janina, JF, silvia, davidb, sean, MikeSmith, MichaelC, oedipus, [tm], Zakim, trackbot
21:32:57 zakim, WAI_PFWG(A11Y)
21:32:57 I don't understand 'WAI_PFWG(A11Y)', janina
21:33:04 zakim, this will be WAI_PFWG(A11Y)
21:33:04 ok, janina, I see WAI_PFWG(A11Y)5:30PM already started
21:33:18 rrsagent, make log public
21:33:27 rrsagent, make minutes
21:33:28 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/04/06-html-a11y-minutes.html janina
21:33:33 frankolivier has joined #html-a11y
21:33:49 zakim, take up item 1
21:33:49 agendum 1. "Identify Scribe http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/wiki/index.php?title=Scribe_List" taken up [from janina]
21:33:55 scribe: janina
21:34:02 zakim, close item 1
21:34:02 agendum 1, Identify Scribe http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/wiki/index.php?title=Scribe_List, closed
21:34:04 I see 9 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
21:34:06 zakim, next item
21:34:06 2. Subteam Reports: Canvas; ARIA Mappings; Media; Bug Triage [from janina]
21:34:08 agendum 2. "Subteam Reports: Canvas; ARIA Mappings; Media; Bug Triage" taken up [from janina]
21:34:33 zakim, close item 2
21:34:33 agendum 2, Subteam Reports: Canvas; ARIA Mappings; Media; Bug Triage, closed
21:34:35 I see 8 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
21:34:37 3. @longdesc redux [from janina]
21:35:36 zakim, agenda?
21:35:36 I see 8 items remaining on the agenda:
21:35:37 3. @longdesc redux [from janina]
21:35:39 4. Actions Review http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/track/actions/open [from janina]
21:35:42 5. be done [from janina]
21:35:42 6. Identify Scribe [from janina]
21:35:44 7. Issue-152 Multitrack [from janina]
21:35:45 8. Actions Review http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/track/actions/open [from janina]
21:35:47 9. Other Business? [from janina]
21:35:47 10. be done [from janina]
21:35:59 zakim, take up item 7
21:35:59 agendum 7. "Issue-152 Multitrack" taken up [from janina]
21:37:05 +Eric_Carlson
21:37:20 + +1.408.540.aaaa
21:37:55 zakim, who's here?
21:37:55 On the phone I see ??P3, John_Foliot, ??P5, Judy, ??P7, [Microsoft], Eric_Carlson, +1.408.540.aaaa
21:37:58 On IRC I see frankolivier, RRSAgent, janina, JF, silvia, davidb, sean, MikeSmith, MichaelC, oedipus, [tm], Zakim, trackbot
21:38:27 zakim: aaaa is Mark Watson
21:38:32 mark has joined #html-a11y
21:39:00 + +61.2.801.2.aabb
21:39:06 zakim: aabb is me
21:39:20 judy has joined #html-a11y
21:39:25 zakim, aabb is me
21:39:25 +silvia; got it
21:39:34 zakim, mute me
21:39:34 silvia should now be muted
21:39:51 judy has changed the topic to: HTML Accessibility Task Force, Media Sub-Group
21:39:55 zakim, aaaa is mark
21:39:55 +mark; got it
21:39:55 agenda?
21:40:20 zakim, drop item 3
21:40:20 agendum 3, @longdesc redux, dropped
21:40:29 zakim, drop item 5
21:40:29 agendum 5, be done, dropped
21:40:34 zakim, drop item 6
21:40:34 agendum 6, Identify Scribe, dropped
21:40:43 zakim, drop item 4
21:40:43 agendum 4, Actions Review http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/track/actions/open, dropped
21:41:47 Eric: We're a bit closer.
21:41:59 Eric: Frank hasn't dropped his proposal yet, but I believe he is going to.
21:42:19 zakim, unmute me
21:42:19 silvia should no longer be muted
21:42:24 Eric: There's quite a bit we like in Ian's proposal and are expecting some modifications from him based on discussion
21:42:40 jf: are all these discussions being captured in W3C space?
21:42:48 Eric: Don't know ...
21:43:10 Eric: I agreed to forward things, if they weren't
21:43:32 q+
21:43:45 Judy: Do we want to specify that the discussion on multitrack be copied to the TF list as well?
21:44:02 JF: Frank, Sean?
21:44:34 judy: just to clarify, it could be both html and tf lists
21:44:56 janina: would prefer it was both lists, it's a critical discussion
21:45:11 silvia: I promissed to write a summary, apoligize it's not done
21:45:44 Silvia: Ian's proposal is specified in what
21:45:52 Silvia: I'd like to discuss it.
21:46:49 janina: Is it at least referenced in W3C space?
21:46:59 Silvia: Yes, it's referred in the bug on this issue
21:47:06 -??P3
21:47:33 Silvia: We have been granted more time for this issue ...
21:47:45 q+
21:48:20 Silvia: We still have four fundamentally different proposals on the table
21:48:27 jf: Judy?
21:48:33 q-
21:48:42 +??P3
21:48:44 judy: Just concerned that we use the time of people on this call well
21:48:54 Sean_ has joined #html-a11y
21:49:56 folivier2 has joined #html-a11y
21:51:02 davidb has joined #html-a11y
21:51:32 Silvia: Would like to put the controller approach on the table for discussion
21:51:55 Silvia: Ian suggests simply using js rather than ml
21:52:12 Silvia: Wondering about advantages vs disadvantages of this
21:53:16 Eric: His proposal still associates the elements in ml
21:53:30 Eric: It explicitly creates a controller object
21:54:08 Eric: Negative aspect--majer negative--that timelines are completely independent
21:55:15 Eric: It would be possible to play these at different rates,; but this could be confusing for users and hard for devs to implement
21:55:30 Eric: So, we at Apple aren't so thrilled with that
21:55:37 Silvia: Can you touch on the good things?
21:55:51 Eric: Yes, we could make this work more logically
21:56:07 Eric: Some aspects of Ian, ours, and Seans, for example slaving to a common clock
21:56:50 Eric: We gave this feedback to Ian last week--but it was on the what list, sorry
21:56:59 Erioc: Ian did commit to make this change
21:57:09 Silvia: I believe he's working on it, but I don't know the status
21:57:36 jf: Do I understand that Ian's controller approach fits with Sean's approach?
21:57:38 Sean has joined #html-a11y
21:58:39 Eric: One aspect of Sean's proposal, last I looked, was to have a text element associated, and Ian doesn't cover that
21:58:47 jf: And to position the text content?
21:58:57 Eric: Yes, we agreed to separate that last week
21:59:15 Eric: We agree it needs solving, but it's a separate issue
21:59:50 jf: Do we address it before last call?
22:00:26 Silvia: At the moment we can render text anywhere on page manually. We want to improve on that using css selector, and Sean created a wiki for this
22:00:57 zakim, who's here?
22:00:57 On the phone I see John_Foliot, ??P5, Judy, ??P7, [Microsoft], Eric_Carlson, mark, silvia, ??P3
22:00:59 On IRC I see Sean, davidb, folivier2, judy, mark, RRSAgent, janina, JF, silvia, MikeSmith, MichaelC, oedipus_lurker, [tm], Zakim, trackbot
22:01:20 Sean: Yes, there are several issues around the api for selecting tracks, but they can be handled independently
22:01:47 Sean: There are good things in Ian's proposal
22:02:22 Eric: It would be easier to solve text rendering apart from Issue-152
22:04:52 Sean: I don't think Ian's has a clean enough approach on mutually exclusive
22:05:21 Eric: Agree that requiring inband video tracks to be mutually exclusive doesn't make much sense
22:05:24 Silvia: Agree
22:05:44 Silvia: Also don't understand why audio can be multiple, but video is exclusive
22:05:50 http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/video.html#media-resources-with-multiple-media-tracks
22:05:54 Silvia: I believe we can amalgamate these
22:06:36 Silvia: Frank, have you looked at Ian's Thoughts?
22:06:47 Frank: Agree there much merit. Agree we start from it
22:07:19 jf: Does anyone disagree?
22:07:23 [silence]
22:07:36 Eric: We need to ask when we can expect an updated version from Ian
22:08:15 Eric: It would be helpful for us to continue from an updated spec that incorporates our ideas
22:08:25 Silvia: I'm messaging him ...
22:09:44 JF: Main concern is that we have to keep momentum on this
22:10:53 Silvia: I have an additional question re controller
22:11:13 Silvia: Inessence this means defining an abstract timeline apart from each of the component elements
22:11:37 Silvia: Is that possible? An abstract timeline or do we need to pick one?
22:12:39 Eric: No problem because that's what will happen in the background anyway. All elements will be driven by the hw clock. It's an implementation detail
22:13:01 Eric: At least in our implementation
22:13:09 Frank: Can you say more about time offset zero?
22:13:32 Eric: Having time 0 correspond to one of the files won't be that hard
22:13:53 Eric: From the user's perspective don't think it would make sense to have nothing rendered for awahile
22:14:16 Silvia: Time 0 is where they all start?
22:15:14 Eric: It may make sense to specify a start time other than 0.
22:15:39 davidb has joined #html-a11y
22:17:03 janina: What about a use case where the alternative is provided in multiple files?
22:18:07 Eric: Don't doubt that this is the case, but it isn't hard to build the composite file
22:19:29 Silvia: Don't think multitrack is the best answer for that
22:20:22 Silvia: Agree that flattening the individual files into a single file is easier for publication, use, etc
22:20:31 -Eric_Carlson
22:20:56 +Eric_Carlson
22:21:04 Mark: We currently store each subtitle, etc., in a separate track
22:21:11 Silvia: But not segmented in time?
22:21:13 Mark: No
22:21:25 Mark: Each file contains the entire duration
22:22:04 janina: So, continuing as the devil's advocate, what about extended video descriptions?
22:22:12 Silvia: Yes, that changes the timeline
22:22:32 Silvia: It's a different problem, and one of the most complex
22:23:10 Silvia: Would not to like to solve it in multitrack
22:23:35 Eric: But segmented files wouldn't solve the problem either, because all others would need to be paused while this one continues to play
22:24:05 Frank: Prefer a simpler approach, offset seems too complex
22:25:22 Frank: Agree that linking multiple segmented files into a single file should be done in authoring
22:26:16 …authoring the media
22:27:56 jf: So thinking about sign language ... if the sign language tracks stalls for some reason, it should tell the main to pause at some point
22:28:09 Frank: Yes, we can do that today
22:28:55 Silvia: Am I understanding that the controller isn't the best idea? That one element should be the primary timeline?
22:28:57 Frank: Yes
22:29:27 Silvia: So can't you achieve that in implementation? Just pick the one you want to use?
22:30:05 jf: My concern there is authoring; Now we have to tell people the first video is primary and may not be correct oftimes
22:30:53 Eric: Silvia's suggesting that that one timeline could be chosen to use as the master
22:31:27 q+
22:32:00 Eric: It's only necessary to expose this to authors if we don't require because of data load problems
22:32:30 Silvia: If we allow any element to be the master, users might prefer different choices
22:33:11 ack judy
22:33:18 ack frank
22:33:25 ack folivier
22:33:26 Frank: if two elements have different length content, how do we reconcile
22:33:37 Eric: Propose that the duration of the group is the union of its members
22:34:09 Eric: Ian has pointed out that it's sometimes not possible to predict
22:34:40 Eric: So should be as in video editor, the longer file extends the shorter
22:34:52 Silvia: So the longest rules
22:34:59 Frank: And the use case?
22:35:24 Eric: A movie with director's comments often go longer
22:35:25 q+
22:36:01 Mark: There's also different packet lengths between audio and video
22:36:19 differentpacket durations
22:36:28 Eric: So if you enable an element that had been disabled, it may make the composite presentation longer
22:36:50 Eric: Also think we should apply this principle for display
22:36:54 Silvia: How so?
22:37:10 q+
22:37:14 Silvia: They're already displayed in different areas, no?
22:37:17 Eric: Maybe, maybe not
22:37:35 Eric: I suppose depends on controller and what properties we have there
22:38:25 Eric: If we require all elements for some time be loaded before we play,
22:38:36 Silvia: So an abstract state from all the elements that are active?
22:38:37 davidb has joined #html-a11y
22:38:54 Eric: This was in our feedback to Ian
22:39:03 ack judy
22:39:05 ack judy
22:39:07 ack Sean
22:39:07 ack sean
22:40:06 Eric: Restating for Sean who some of us couldn't hear ....
22:40:50 Eric: Sean smil has this same issue and adopting the behavior that duration of group can be longer of any element we need to decide what happens with elements that have video when play goes beyond the end of video
22:41:00 Eric: Suggest rendering nothing
22:41:31 Eric: Suspect you wouldn't want last sign gesture to be held
22:41:37 jf: what does smil do?
22:41:43 Eric: allows to be specified
22:41:54 good summary
22:42:29 Silvia: Think going to transparent
22:42:38 jf: so that box would disappear?
22:42:40 Eric: Yes
22:42:55 does it still contribute to the overall shape however?
22:43:23 Eric and Silvia say 'yes'
22:43:33 Mark: Isn't the usual behavior to freez
22:44:20 Eric: last frame is held because time stops so you see the image for the last frame
22:44:32 Silvia: Some display links to other videos
22:45:23 Mark: And if the track is disabled?
22:45:32 Eric: Then it disappears from rendering
22:46:49 -silvia
22:47:05 Frank: I am concerned whether we're taking on more complexity again
22:47:18 Eric: How different?
22:47:35 Frank: If longest element wins, what do you do with a loop event?
22:48:04 Eric: And how is it simpler in the other case?
22:48:10 +silvia
22:49:15 Is it always the case then that effectively the longest video is always the master?
22:49:15 Frank: Because we've defined the master
22:49:25 Silvia: It's the case for both approaches
22:49:29 Frank: Don't agree
22:50:06 Eric: So, if we don't require slaved elements ... if we don't pause the timeline because every sample isn't loaded ...
22:50:28 Eric: If we require all must load before we play, then I agree it's the same from the implementation viewpoint
22:51:09 Mark: Sounds like it's simpler to have one master, whichever is the master
22:51:17 Eric: Don't agree, but let's consider
22:51:26 Eric: What do you do with the longer slave?
22:51:31 Mark: It lengthens the master
22:52:42 Mark: So the master is extended to the longest of any of the active elements ...
22:52:48 Silvia: Yes, and that's the controller
22:54:14 Silvia: So we change much data about individual elements when we play a group -- so it makes sense to consider the group as the master
22:54:33 Frank: I'll reconsider the proposal
22:55:59 jf: Four minute warning ...
22:56:10 JF: Silvia, some work on wiki, yes?
22:56:17 yes
22:56:29 JF: We'll ask Ian to cc W3C lists
22:57:13 judy: Would it help to have Silvia's summary list remaining questions/issues?
22:57:45 Judy: Can we collect now?
22:58:12 Eric: Several: What should --- Should all group elements have the same controls?
22:58:24 Eric: Loaded ranges?
22:58:59 Eric: What should happen when script does a seek on one element
22:59:19 Eric: Ditto for other attributes -- What happens?
22:59:39 Should in fact media elements have any means of controlling other than the controller
23:01:31 -mark
23:01:31 zakim, bye
23:01:31