IRC log of sparql on 2011-04-05

Timestamps are in UTC.

13:56:01 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #sparql
13:56:01 [RRSAgent]
logging to http://www.w3.org/2011/04/05-sparql-irc
13:56:01 [LeeF]
trackbot, start meeting
13:56:03 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, make logs world
13:56:05 [trackbot]
Zakim, this will be 77277
13:56:05 [Zakim]
ok, trackbot; I see SW_(SPARQL)10:00AM scheduled to start in 4 minutes
13:56:06 [trackbot]
Meeting: SPARQL Working Group Teleconference
13:56:06 [trackbot]
Date: 05 April 2011
13:56:14 [LeeF]
trackbot, close ACTION-353
13:56:14 [trackbot]
ACTION-353 Update the comments table on the wiki and approach people for drafting responses closed
13:56:19 [LeeF]
zakim, this will be SPARQL
13:56:19 [Zakim]
ok, LeeF; I see SW_(SPARQL)10:00AM scheduled to start in 4 minutes
13:56:48 [Zakim]
SW_(SPARQL)10:00AM has now started
13:56:54 [Zakim]
+??P2
13:57:01 [SteveH]
Zakim, ??P2 is me
13:57:01 [Zakim]
+SteveH; got it
13:57:03 [Zakim]
+??P3
13:57:26 [AndyS]
zakim, ??P3 is me
13:57:26 [Zakim]
+AndyS; got it
13:57:34 [AndyS]
zakim, who is on the phone?
13:57:34 [Zakim]
On the phone I see SteveH, AndyS
13:57:44 [MattPerry]
MattPerry has joined #sparql
13:58:40 [Zakim]
+ +1.310.729.aaaa
13:58:45 [kasei]
Zakim, aaaa is me
13:58:45 [Zakim]
+kasei; got it
13:58:46 [Zakim]
+LeeF
13:59:53 [Zakim]
+MattPerry
14:02:30 [bglimm]
bglimm has joined #sparql
14:02:33 [kasei]
scribenick: kasei
14:03:06 [LeeF]
zakim, who's on the phone?
14:03:06 [Zakim]
+Sandro
14:03:08 [Zakim]
On the phone I see SteveH, AndyS, kasei, LeeF, MattPerry, Sandro
14:03:41 [Zakim]
+ +41.86.528.aabb
14:03:51 [LeeF]
topic: Admin
14:03:55 [LeeF]
PROPOSED: Approve minutes at http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/meeting/2011-03-29
14:04:01 [bglimm]
Zakim, +41.86.528.aabb is me
14:04:02 [Zakim]
+bglimm; got it
14:04:30 [LeeF]
RESOLVED: Approve minutes at http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/meeting/2011-03-29
14:04:40 [bglimm]
Zakim, mute me
14:04:40 [Zakim]
bglimm should now be muted
14:04:49 [LeeF]
Regrets: Chime, Axel, Alex, Carlos, Olivier
14:05:02 [LeeF]
Next regular meeting: 2011-04-12 @ 15:00 UK / 10:00 EST (scribe: Axel or Alex)
14:05:24 [Zakim]
+pgearon
14:05:27 [AndyS]
My regrets for next week.
14:05:27 [Zakim]
+Souri_
14:05:34 [Souri]
Souri has joined #sparql
14:05:37 [SteveH]
I'm at risk for next week
14:05:57 [kasei]
LeeF: new comments. one from last friday.
14:06:22 [sandro]
scribe: sandro
14:06:23 [kasei]
... about response codes for protocol. is 204 acceptable in case where there is no content returned?
14:09:19 [AndyS]
204 means empty entity -- we do return an entity for an empty results table in SELECT. No "semantic" level meaning. it also means "no change of focus." unlike 200
14:09:57 [sandro]
zakim, agenda?
14:09:57 [Zakim]
I see nothing on the agenda
14:10:08 [sandro]
sandro has changed the topic to: agenda: http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/wiki/Agenda-2011-04-05
14:10:21 [LeeF]
Agenda: http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/wiki/Agenda-2011-04-05
14:10:31 [sandro]
SteveH: There's a bit of the Algebra I still need to look at. Very short on time, though.
14:11:03 [sandro]
Lee: Steve, there are some Aggregrate-related comments for you, too... Maybe you can look at them at the same time.
14:12:04 [sandro]
AndyS: Lee, are you still going to do your action?
14:12:12 [sandro]
Lee: I'm not sure, but I hope to.
14:12:44 [LeeF]
close ACTION-409
14:12:45 [trackbot]
ACTION-409 Edit Update document to note that blank nodes in DELETE templates are an error closed
14:12:46 [sandro]
Lee: Paul, has Update Doc been updated to reflect blank nodes being prohibited in templates?
14:12:53 [sandro]
Paul: Yes.
14:13:50 [sandro]
Lee: Greg, did we say we were ready for you to review update?
14:14:01 [sandro]
Greg: We did, I hope to do it this week.
14:14:17 [sandro]
Lee: I hope to do a large amt of work on Protocol Doc today.
14:14:44 [sandro]
Lee: I have an email to Chime about come outstanding comments on Graph Store Protocol doc.
14:14:45 [bglimm]
Zakim, unmute me
14:14:45 [Zakim]
bglimm should no longer be muted
14:14:54 [sandro]
Lee: We got a review from Jeff Pan, which Birte replied to.
14:15:30 [sandro]
bglimm: I need some clarification from Jeff, but I don't think there's anything that will need WG discussion. But we do have to discuss issues with Canonical Representation for D-Entailment.
14:15:50 [sandro]
Lee: Fed Query still waiting on Carlo or me to check status.
14:16:01 [sandro]
q+ to give an announcement
14:16:14 [LeeF]
ack sandro
14:16:14 [Zakim]
sandro, you wanted to give an announcement
14:16:34 [LeeF]
sandro: New working group - provenance working group just announced
14:16:39 [LeeF]
... first meeting in a couple of weeks
14:16:51 [LeeF]
... sign up!
14:17:02 [LeeF]
... also government linked data working group has been sent to the Advisory Committee
14:17:25 [sandro]
http://www.w3.org/2011/gld/charter.html
14:17:33 [sandro]
http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/Main_Page
14:18:25 [LeeF]
sandro: RDFa WG has been renamed RDF Web Applications WG, working on RDF Web Api
14:18:31 [LeeF]
... (re-)starting up, good time to join
14:18:47 [LeeF]
topic: Canonicalization
14:19:20 [sandro]
Lee: I didn't read enough of the discussion between Birte and Bijan on this; can you summarize?
14:20:23 [sandro]
bglimm: XSD 1.0 canonical reprs have some problems. Decimal and integer have a bit of a contradiction. Take canon of the base type. Which alas means for int it's like 1.0, even though that's not a valid int rep!
14:20:55 [sandro]
bglimm: the next version is scheduled for LC in April, this month.
14:21:05 [sandro]
LeeF: If they really are on that schedule.
14:22:39 [sandro]
sandro: (tells story of OWL and RIF xsd finesse note.)
14:22:47 [sandro]
Lee: Should we do the same thing, Birte?
14:23:08 [sandro]
bglimm: Yes, I think so. Anything else -- using XSD 1.0 -- doesn't make sense.
14:23:27 [sandro]
Lee: It doesnt seem to help anyone to point at the defns in a broken spec.
14:23:49 [sandro]
Lee: I kinda think we oughta do the same thing as OWL 2 and RIF, depending on 1.1
14:24:05 [sandro]
Lee: ... if they don't actually move forward faster than us.
14:24:18 [sandro]
Lee: I think that's what we have to do. :-|
14:24:36 [sandro]
bglimm: That sounds right to me.
14:24:48 [sandro]
Lee: I don't think we need a WG decision on this.
14:25:12 [sandro]
AndyS: At the worst, we could lift a def'n from 1.1 just before we go to CR.
14:25:19 [LeeF]
topic: Service URL vs. URI vs. Endpoint
14:25:24 [bglimm]
Zakim, mute me
14:25:24 [Zakim]
bglimm should now be muted
14:25:41 [LeeF]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2011AprJun/0000.html
14:25:45 [sandro]
Lee: Terminology from a comment by Bob Scanlon, on svg descr doc.
14:26:50 [sandro]
Lee: What is the name of the URI that services SPARQL protocol requests. "Service URL", "Service Name", "SPARQL Ends Point" (the URI at which a SPARQL protocol service listens....)
14:27:02 [sandro]
Lee: Greg suggested "service URI"
14:27:30 [sandro]
AndyS: i think the naming has to reflect the difference between the service and where you access it.
14:27:54 [sandro]
AndyS: Using "URI" suggests the service ... I think we need to use the word "End Point"
14:27:58 [sandro]
+1 End Point
14:28:10 [LeeF]
http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/docs/service-description-1.1/xmlspec.xml#sd-url
14:28:43 [LeeF]
Andy is suggesting that sd:url relates the service to the service endpoint
14:28:50 [sandro]
LeeF, : sd:url relates the service to the service endpoint
14:29:19 [sandro]
q+
14:29:24 [sandro]
q-
14:29:34 [LeeF]
SERVICE <foo>
14:29:40 [sandro]
q+
14:29:47 [LeeF]
kasei: foo is an endpoint
14:29:59 [LeeF]
ack sandro
14:31:09 [LeeF]
sandro: is the range of sd:url a URL or a character string?
14:31:25 [LeeF]
... is it a literal or not?
14:31:34 [sandro]
sandro: In my mind, a URL is a kind of Literal.
14:31:36 [LeeF]
kasei: it's meant to point at the endpoint, not point at the literal with a URL string
14:32:15 [sandro]
sandro: sd:endPoint or endPointAddress (if it's a string)
14:32:58 [sandro]
endpoint
14:33:09 [sandro]
+1 sd:endpoint
14:33:32 [sandro]
AndyS: i wouldn't use a capital in the middle :-)
14:33:55 [sandro]
Lee: I think it makes sense to call the property "endpoint"
14:34:22 [sandro]
kasei: Without concern for people who might be using this already, yeah, I have a mild preference for endpoint, too.
14:34:30 [LeeF]
service-identifier sd:endpoint service-endpoint-url
14:35:17 [sandro]
Lee: where service-endpoint-url is a non-Literal Resource.
14:35:47 [sandro]
(mild digression about whether that could a blank node.)
14:37:24 [sandro]
AndyS: the endpoint is necessarily 1-1 to the endpoint URL
14:37:33 [sandro]
sandro: what about changes in case of the hostname?
14:38:02 [sandro]
AndyS: It's still 1-1 --- different case in hostname is a DIFFERENT ENDPOINT -- because you'll have a different base for your queries and responses.
14:38:17 [LeeF]
ACTION: Greg to make sure SD terminology is consistent with "service endpoint" as the place you poke to use a (protocol) service
14:38:17 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-432 - Make sure SD terminology is consistent with "service endpoint" as the place you poke to use a (protocol) service [on Gregory Williams - due 2011-04-12].
14:38:31 [LeeF]
ACTION: Lee to work with Carlos to make sure Fed terminology is consistent with "service endpoint" as the place you poke to use a (protocol) service
14:38:32 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-433 - Work with Carlos to make sure Fed terminology is consistent with "service endpoint" as the place you poke to use a (protocol) service [on Lee Feigenbaum - due 2011-04-12].
14:38:40 [sandro]
sandro: then, yeah, I guess i'm okay with endpoint's range being EndPoint, instead of URL.
14:39:14 [sandro]
Lee: let's change sd:url to sd:endpoint -- it'll help communitcate our view
14:39:26 [sandro]
sandro: sd:endpoint range sd:Endpoint ?
14:39:39 [sandro]
kasei: That's not the sort of thing we currently do.
14:39:57 [LeeF]
topic: RDF dataset merge
14:40:06 [kasei]
sandro, I'll think over that...
14:40:44 [sandro]
Lee: RDF-WG discussion - what does it mean to merge datasets?
14:41:08 [sandro]
AndyS: putting the defns side by side
14:41:22 [sandro]
LeeF: Would that change any semantics, or is this just editorial?
14:41:37 [sandro]
AndyS: I wouldn't use the word merging.
14:41:50 [sandro]
AndyS: Union affects graph store.
14:42:04 [sandro]
AndyS: ... around handling of bnodes, in a way that doesnt apply in query.
14:42:37 [sandro]
LeeF: My main concern was that since our specs dont use Merge, we'd be including text we dont need, that's not right for RDF-WG.
14:43:08 [sandro]
AndyS: Normally I'd agree, but I can't think of another defn of RDF Merge that would work with the definitions we have.
14:43:55 [sandro]
Lee: I'm hearing that we use RDF datasets, and given how we define them, there's really only one way to merge them. And then RDF-WG can use SPARQL Datasets, or something else if they don't like our merge.
14:44:46 [sandro]
sandro: Maybe ask RDF-WG to look at this at their F2F next week.
14:45:10 [sandro]
Lee: Andy, can you put it in SPARQL Query, and I'll raise it to RDF-WG?
14:45:30 [LeeF]
ACTION: Andy to add RDF Dataset merge definition to Query document
14:45:31 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-434 - Add RDF Dataset merge definition to Query document [on Andy Seaborne - due 2011-04-12].
14:45:40 [LeeF]
ACTION: Lee to ping RDF WG about RDF Dataset Merge definition once in place
14:45:40 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-435 - Ping RDF WG about RDF Dataset Merge definition once in place [on Lee Feigenbaum - due 2011-04-12].
14:45:52 [LeeF]
topic: tests
14:45:58 [LeeF]
subtopic: property path tests
14:46:29 [sandro]
LeeF: a bug was found....
14:46:42 [LeeF]
http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/docs/tests/data-sparql11/property-path/
14:46:57 [LeeF]
:pp29 in http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/docs/tests/data-sparql11/property-path/manifest.ttl
14:47:07 [LeeF]
path-3-4.rq
14:47:12 [LeeF]
data-diamond-loop.ttl
14:47:45 [AndyS]
:p{2,}
14:47:59 [sandro]
AndyS: If you look at that query, the core of it is :p{2,}
14:48:04 [LeeF]
a -> b -> z a -> c -> z c -> c
14:48:14 [sandro]
... part of it is an unbounded operation
14:48:27 [sandro]
... they don't behave the same in how they treat cardinalities
14:48:37 [sandro]
... so we can't reverse the operation
14:48:54 [LeeF]
diamond-loop-6.srx
14:48:58 [sandro]
... my implementation was doing it the wrong way around.
14:49:08 [LeeF]
c / a / a / a
14:49:17 [LeeF]
should be
14:49:23 [LeeF]
c / c / a / a / a
14:49:35 [sandro]
AndyS: Correct result is c / c / a / a / a
14:50:38 [sandro]
Lee: I'm updating srx file now.
14:51:00 [LeeF]
http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/docs/tests/data-sparql11/property-path/diamond-loop-6.srx
14:52:03 [sandro]
Zakim, list attendees
14:52:03 [Zakim]
As of this point the attendees have been SteveH, AndyS, +1.310.729.aaaa, kasei, LeeF, MattPerry, Sandro, bglimm, pgearon, Souri_
14:52:43 [sandro]
kasei: I havent looked at 34 or 35, but I have passed them.
14:52:49 [sandro]
lee: that's good enough, I think.
14:52:56 [LeeF]
PROPOSED: Re-approve :pp29 with change made in this teleconference and approve :pp34 and :pp35
14:53:07 [AndyS]
seconded
14:53:18 [LeeF]
RESOLVED: Re-approve :pp29 with change made in this teleconference and approve :pp34 and :pp35
14:54:41 [LeeF]
PROPOSED: Approve all of the tests in syntax-query, syntax-update-1, syntax-update-2
14:54:47 [kasei]
+1
14:54:58 [LeeF]
RESOLVED: Approve all of the tests in syntax-query, syntax-update-1, syntax-update-2
14:55:07 [LeeF]
ACTION: Lee to mark property path and syntax tests as approved
14:55:07 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-436 - Mark property path and syntax tests as approved [on Lee Feigenbaum - due 2011-04-12].
14:55:59 [sandro]
ADJOURN
14:56:02 [bglimm]
bye
14:56:03 [AndyS]
54, 52, 1 tests
14:56:04 [MattPerry]
bye
14:56:04 [Zakim]
-Sandro
14:56:06 [Zakim]
-LeeF
14:56:06 [Zakim]
-AndyS
14:56:07 [Zakim]
-bglimm
14:56:07 [Zakim]
-SteveH
14:56:11 [Zakim]
-kasei
14:56:18 [Zakim]
-pgearon
14:56:20 [Zakim]
-MattPerry
14:56:53 [kasei]
LeeF, are you going to update the test manifests to mark approved tests?
15:10:25 [LeeF]
kasei, yes, I will
15:11:01 [LeeF]
sandro, do you want to do the commonscribe stuff or would you like me to?
15:11:38 [sandro]
LeeF, I think I did it.
15:11:45 [sandro]
(on another call right now)
15:14:48 [LeeF]
http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/meeting/2011-04-05 looks good, sandro, thanks
15:28:02 [Zakim]
-Souri_
15:28:03 [Zakim]
SW_(SPARQL)10:00AM has ended
15:28:05 [Zakim]
Attendees were SteveH, AndyS, +1.310.729.aaaa, kasei, LeeF, MattPerry, Sandro, bglimm, pgearon, Souri_
15:31:21 [LeeF]
kasei, I've checked in updated manifests with everything marked approved
15:31:27 [LeeF]
trackbot, close ACTION-436
15:31:27 [trackbot]
ACTION-436 Mark property path and syntax tests as approved closed
15:32:44 [kasei]
thanks LeeF
15:33:13 [kasei]
I've also just committed the sd doc with the updated sd:endpoint (ACTION 432)
15:35:01 [kasei]
oh. I had "is a URI reference" in the SD RDF, but it seems it was missing in the document. think that might satisfy sandro?
15:45:28 [pgearon]
pgearon has joined #sparql
15:56:29 [LeeF]
kasei, can't speak for sandro but it does the trick for me :)
15:57:24 [kasei]
not sure why it disappeared from the doc text, but I'll add it back in.
15:57:33 [kasei]
kills me that there's no way to represent that in the RDF, though.
16:24:57 [SteveH]
SteveH has joined #sparql
16:25:57 [LeeF]
aye, me too
17:08:03 [AndyS]
trackbot, close ACTION-434 please
17:08:03 [trackbot]
Sorry, AndyS, I don't understand 'trackbot, close ACTION-434 please'. Please refer to http://www.w3.org/2005/06/tracker/irc for help
17:08:14 [AndyS]
trackbot, close ACTION-434
17:08:14 [trackbot]
ACTION-434 Add RDF Dataset merge definition to Query document closed
17:08:30 [AndyS]
(Never be nice to bots.)
17:16:52 [karl]
karl has joined #sparql
17:18:11 [Zakim]
Zakim has left #sparql
17:26:53 [LeeF]
ACTION-435?
17:26:53 [trackbot]
ACTION-435 -- Lee Feigenbaum to ping RDF WG about RDF Dataset Merge definition once in place -- due 2011-04-12 -- OPEN
17:26:53 [trackbot]
http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/track/actions/435
17:27:02 [LeeF]
trackbot, close ACTION-435
17:27:02 [trackbot]
ACTION-435 Ping RDF WG about RDF Dataset Merge definition once in place closed