IRC log of fx on 2011-04-04

Timestamps are in UTC.

19:59:50 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #fx
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logging to http://www.w3.org/2011/04/04-fx-irc
19:59:52 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, make logs world
19:59:52 [Zakim]
Zakim has joined #fx
19:59:54 [trackbot]
Zakim, this will be 3983
19:59:54 [Zakim]
ok, trackbot; I see GA_FXTF()4:00PM scheduled to start in 1 minute
19:59:55 [trackbot]
Meeting: CSS-SVG Task Force Teleconference
19:59:55 [trackbot]
Date: 04 April 2011
20:00:52 [Zakim]
GA_FXTF()4:00PM has now started
20:00:59 [Zakim]
+smfr
20:01:10 [Zakim]
+ +1.206.675.aaaa
20:02:03 [Zakim]
+??P5
20:02:05 [Zakim]
+Doug_Schepers
20:02:12 [ed]
Zakim, ??P5 is me
20:02:12 [Zakim]
+ed; got it
20:02:28 [Zakim]
+ +1.650.253.aabb
20:02:33 [TabAtkins]
zakim, aabb is me
20:02:33 [Zakim]
+TabAtkins; got it
20:02:55 [ed]
Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-fx/2011JanMar/0170.html
20:03:50 [ChrisL]
ChrisL has joined #fx
20:04:33 [Zakim]
+ChrisL
20:04:33 [ed]
Zakim, who's here?
20:04:35 [Zakim]
On the phone I see smfr, +1.206.675.aaaa, ed, Doug_Schepers, TabAtkins, ChrisL (muted)
20:04:36 [Zakim]
On IRC I see ChrisL, Zakim, RRSAgent, smfr, cabanier, anthony, shepazu, hober, plinss, F1LT3R, anthony_work, ed, TabAtkins, trackbot, heycam, CSSWG_LogBot
20:05:58 [ed]
Zakim, pick a scribe?
20:05:58 [Zakim]
I don't understand your question, ed.
20:06:03 [ed]
Zakim, pick a victim
20:06:03 [Zakim]
Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose Doug_Schepers
20:06:23 [shepazu]
scribeNick: shepazu
20:06:58 [shepazu]
Topic: CSS Animation synchronization
20:06:59 [ed]
chair: erik
20:07:07 [Zakim]
+??P12
20:07:17 [anthony]
Zakim, ??P12 is me
20:07:17 [Zakim]
+anthony; got it
20:07:19 [ed]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-fx/2011JanMar/0168.html
20:07:48 [shepazu]
ed: long thread, wondered what the status of the animation work is?
20:08:06 [shepazu]
smfr: Dean promised to publish a draft this week
20:08:18 [shepazu]
... has an API for WebKit
20:08:34 [shepazu]
ed: does it do sync?
20:08:40 [shepazu]
smfr: I don't think so
20:09:36 [shepazu]
... it's hard to do smooth frame synchronization starting one animation at the end of another
20:10:19 [shepazu]
... hard to get seamless joins based on 'animationEnd' event
20:10:32 [shepazu]
ChrisL: so, you want a negative offset?
20:10:50 [shepazu]
smfr: I think it's better to use JS APIs, per Dean's spec
20:11:53 [shepazu]
cabanier: on mobile devices, JS overhead becomes tens of seconds
20:12:23 [shepazu]
TabAtkins: that's based on the traditional approach, not Dean's approach
20:13:34 [shepazu]
smfr: you would set it up using keyframes or such, not execute it directly (?)
20:14:57 [shepazu]
cabanier: on iPad, we have to skip frames on animations, how would you set this up?
20:14:59 [shepazu]
TabAtkins: [missed]
20:15:01 [shepazu]
cabanier: ok, I'll have to see it working
20:15:34 [shepazu]
TabAtkins: it's simple at the moment, but has clear directions for expansion
20:16:07 [shepazu]
ed: does this solve Paul's concerns?
20:17:16 [shepazu]
cabanier: paul was asking about pausing and rewinding animations, or replacing them midway through
20:17:55 [shepazu]
... we were more concerned about synchronization in a simple manner
20:18:17 [shepazu]
... without setting it up in advance or keying off an animation event handler
20:19:40 [shepazu]
ed: ok, we will wait for Dean's spec before going further
20:20:02 [shepazu]
Topic: SVG/CSS 2d transforms - 'transform-origin'
20:21:05 [ed]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-fx/2011JanMar/0158.html
20:21:49 [shepazu]
anthony: been discussion on the list about how the transform attribute is going to be used in relation to CSS
20:22:33 [shepazu]
... I thought we were going for an override, but the list discussion doesn't seem to agree
20:23:17 [shepazu]
... ROC put up some options... I don't have personal preferences, I am just curious what others think we should do?
20:24:44 [ed]
http://dev.w3.org/Graphics-FX/modules/2D-transforms/spec/2DTransforms.html
20:24:57 [shepazu]
anthony: the most pertinent point for this discussion is point 1: "Elements with SVG transform attributes must default to top-left as their
20:25:00 [shepazu]
transform origin, but CSS transforms default to the center."
20:25:06 [shepazu]
anthony: not sure the spec reflects the group decision at this point
20:25:32 [shepazu]
ed: I think it does reflect this first point
20:26:00 [shepazu]
... for backwards compatibility
20:26:59 [smfr]
http://dev.w3.org/Graphics-FX/modules/2D-transforms/spec/2DTransforms.html#transform-origin
20:28:08 [shepazu]
ed: 'transform-origin' property has an initial value of center (50%,50%) for CSS, and origin (0,0) for SVG
20:28:38 [ed]
initial value is auto
20:28:46 [ed]
but it maps to those
20:29:03 [Zakim]
+[Apple]
20:29:12 [hober]
Zakim, Apple has hober
20:29:12 [Zakim]
+hober; got it
20:30:18 [shepazu]
anthony: seems like people are leaning toward roc's option 1a: "1a) Introduce a UA style rule that sets transform-origin to "top left" for all SVG elements."
20:31:11 [shepazu]
anthony: would this apply before or after the transform is applied?
20:31:34 [shepazu]
smfr: SVG or CSS transform?
20:32:01 [shepazu]
anthony: I thought we were doing a 1-1 mapping?
20:33:31 [shepazu]
smfr: not sure how they interact
20:34:00 [shepazu]
shepazu: do CSS transforms override or supplement SVG transforms?
20:34:20 [shepazu]
ChrisL: depends on if @transform is promoted to a CSS property
20:35:03 [ChrisL]
if its promoted toa property then a style rule overrides. if not,then they could be defined to combine. Depends what we want
20:37:36 [shepazu]
ed: I did an experimental implementation that did a post-multiply, and it seemed easy enough to use, but felt a bit strange not to have @transform as a property
20:37:53 [Zakim]
-smfr
20:37:59 [Zakim]
-TabAtkins
20:38:10 [ChrisL]
Not promoting transform to a property minimises the backwards compatibility issues and means the dom still works as it did before
20:38:21 [shepazu]
ed: didn't experiment much, but that was the easiest way
20:41:02 [shepazu]
anthony: what about animation?
20:42:24 [shepazu]
shepazu: still works for animating with CSS animations
20:42:58 [shepazu]
ChrisL: I think the simpler path is not promoting @transform to a property, and just define how they combine
20:43:12 [shepazu]
shepazu: I tend to agree, though ed's point is taken
20:43:53 [shepazu]
ed: yeah, that solves the DOM issues as well
20:44:57 [shepazu]
shepazu: my only concern would be for SVG UAs that don't support CSS, but I think those are dwindling
20:45:10 [ed]
s/to have @transform as a property/to have @transform as a presentation attribute/
20:47:23 [shepazu]
anthony: would CSS transforms still apply to SVG
20:47:55 [shepazu]
ChrisL: yes, they would be separate sources of transformation, and you would simply post-multiply them
20:48:08 [shepazu]
Resolution: pending further discussion with other stakeholders, we will not define @transform as a presentation attribute
20:48:48 [shepazu]
Action: anthony to reply to Roc's email with our suggested resolution
20:48:48 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-28 - Reply to Roc's email with our suggested resolution [on Anthony Grasso - due 2011-04-11].
20:51:10 [shepazu]
Topic: Filter Effects status update
20:51:25 [ed]
http://www.w3.org/mid/4A2DB3AE4504E944AF122BBFBA7FBA1F582D2DC1@TK5EX14MBXC114.redmond.corp.microsoft.com
20:53:01 [shepazu]
ChrisL: my impression is that CSS people want it to be very simple, and that adding borders, backgrounds, etc complicates it, so a better would be to add new 'in's to the SVG filter primitives
20:53:44 [shepazu]
ChrisL: simon had a counterproposal with separate names, but that raised the question of how they combined
20:54:14 [shepazu]
ed: I think I'm in favor of having different inputs, and we could define them for the SVG case
20:55:06 [ed]
s/having different inputs,/having additional filter input image keywords,/
20:55:06 [shepazu]
ChrisL: for instance, for things that don't use the CSS box model, you would just use transparent black for the border image (for example)
20:55:46 [shepazu]
ed: we already have 'backgroundImage', but could do it differently for HTML
20:56:16 [Zakim]
-ChrisL
20:56:48 [Zakim]
+ChrisL
20:56:56 [shepazu]
action: ed to add filter input image keywords for CSS and HTML
20:56:57 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-29 - Add filter input image keywords for CSS and HTML [on Erik Dahlström - due 2011-04-11].
20:57:27 [shepazu]
ed: would like to have a list... background of element, border, content box...
20:57:42 [shepazu]
ChrisL: padding is always transparent...
20:57:58 [shepazu]
... so, that's a good list
20:58:45 [shepazu]
ChrisL: start with simple ones, like solid and dotted border, and give it a dropshadow
20:59:39 [shepazu]
... then experiment with 9-box, apply effects... string of pearls, celtic knot...
21:00:32 [shepazu]
... take the alpha channel of the border image to produce a dropshadow, I think that would be compelling
21:01:18 [shepazu]
ed: I'll also try to combine SVG Compositing to filters.... haven't looked at it yet...
21:02:02 [shepazu]
action: ed to add normative reference to SVG Compositing in Filters, and merge them where it applies
21:02:02 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-30 - Add normative reference to SVG Compositing in Filters, and merge them where it applies [on Erik Dahlström - due 2011-04-11].
21:02:24 [Zakim]
-ChrisL
21:02:25 [Zakim]
-[Apple]
21:02:26 [Zakim]
-ed
21:02:26 [Zakim]
-Doug_Schepers
21:02:28 [Zakim]
-anthony
21:02:35 [cabanier]
cabanier has left #fx
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- +1.206.675.aaaa
21:02:39 [Zakim]
GA_FXTF()4:00PM has ended
21:02:40 [Zakim]
Attendees were smfr, +1.206.675.aaaa, Doug_Schepers, ed, +1.650.253.aabb, TabAtkins, ChrisL, anthony, hober
21:03:42 [shepazu]
trackbot: end telcon
21:03:42 [trackbot]
Zakim, list attendees
21:03:42 [Zakim]
sorry, trackbot, I don't know what conference this is
21:03:43 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, please draft minutes
21:03:43 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/04/04-fx-minutes.html trackbot
21:03:44 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, bye
21:03:44 [RRSAgent]
I see 3 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2011/04/04-fx-actions.rdf :
21:03:44 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: anthony to reply to Roc's email with our suggested resolution [1]
21:03:44 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2011/04/04-fx-irc#T20-48-48
21:03:44 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: ed to add filter input image keywords for CSS and HTML [2]
21:03:44 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2011/04/04-fx-irc#T20-56-56
21:03:44 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: ed to add normative reference to SVG Compositing in Filters, and merge them where it applies [3]
21:03:44 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2011/04/04-fx-irc#T21-02-02