19:59:50 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #fx
19:59:50 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2011/04/04-fx-irc
19:59:52 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs world
19:59:52 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #fx
19:59:54 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be 3983
19:59:54 <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see GA_FXTF()4:00PM scheduled to start in 1 minute
19:59:55 <trackbot> Meeting: CSS-SVG Task Force Teleconference
19:59:55 <trackbot> Date: 04 April 2011
20:00:52 <Zakim> GA_FXTF()4:00PM has now started
20:00:59 <Zakim> +smfr
20:01:10 <Zakim> + +1.206.675.aaaa
20:02:03 <Zakim> +??P5
20:02:05 <Zakim> +Doug_Schepers
20:02:12 <ed> Zakim, ??P5 is me
20:02:12 <Zakim> +ed; got it
20:02:28 <Zakim> + +1.650.253.aabb
20:02:33 <TabAtkins> zakim, aabb is me
20:02:33 <Zakim> +TabAtkins; got it
20:02:55 <ed> Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-fx/2011JanMar/0170.html
20:03:50 <ChrisL> ChrisL has joined #fx
20:04:33 <Zakim> +ChrisL
20:04:33 <ed> Zakim, who's here?
20:04:35 <Zakim> On the phone I see smfr, +1.206.675.aaaa, ed, Doug_Schepers, TabAtkins, ChrisL (muted)
20:04:36 <Zakim> On IRC I see ChrisL, Zakim, RRSAgent, smfr, cabanier, anthony, shepazu, hober, plinss, F1LT3R, anthony_work, ed, TabAtkins, trackbot, heycam, CSSWG_LogBot
20:05:58 <ed> Zakim, pick a scribe?
20:05:58 <Zakim> I don't understand your question, ed.
20:06:03 <ed> Zakim, pick a victim
20:06:03 <Zakim> Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose Doug_Schepers
20:06:23 <shepazu> scribeNick: shepazu 
20:06:58 <shepazu> Topic: CSS Animation synchronization
20:06:59 <ed> chair: erik
20:07:07 <Zakim> +??P12
20:07:17 <anthony> Zakim, ??P12 is me
20:07:17 <Zakim> +anthony; got it
20:07:19 <ed> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-fx/2011JanMar/0168.html
20:07:48 <shepazu> ed: long thread, wondered what the status of the animation work is?
20:08:06 <shepazu> smfr: Dean promised to publish a draft this week
20:08:18 <shepazu> ... has an API for WebKit
20:08:34 <shepazu> ed: does it do sync?
20:08:40 <shepazu> smfr: I don't think so
20:09:36 <shepazu> ... it's hard to do smooth frame synchronization starting one animation at the end of another
20:10:19 <shepazu> ... hard to get seamless joins based on 'animationEnd' event
20:10:32 <shepazu> ChrisL: so, you want a negative offset?
20:10:50 <shepazu> smfr: I think it's better to use JS APIs, per Dean's spec
20:11:53 <shepazu> cabanier: on mobile devices, JS overhead becomes tens of seconds
20:12:23 <shepazu> TabAtkins: that's based on the traditional approach, not Dean's approach
20:13:34 <shepazu> smfr: you would set it up using keyframes or such, not execute it directly (?)
20:14:57 <shepazu> cabanier: on iPad, we have to skip frames on animations, how would you set this up?
20:14:59 <shepazu> TabAtkins: [missed]
20:15:01 <shepazu> cabanier: ok, I'll have to see it working
20:15:34 <shepazu> TabAtkins: it's simple at the moment, but has clear directions for expansion
20:16:07 <shepazu> ed: does this solve Paul's concerns?
20:17:16 <shepazu> cabanier: paul was asking about pausing and rewinding animations, or replacing them midway through
20:17:55 <shepazu> ... we were more concerned about synchronization in a simple manner
20:18:17 <shepazu> ... without setting it up in advance or keying off an animation event handler
20:19:40 <shepazu> ed: ok, we will wait for Dean's spec before going further
20:20:02 <shepazu> Topic: SVG/CSS 2d transforms - 'transform-origin'
20:21:05 <ed> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-fx/2011JanMar/0158.html
20:21:49 <shepazu> anthony: been discussion on the list about how the transform attribute is going to be used in relation to CSS
20:22:33 <shepazu> ... I thought we were going for an override, but the list discussion doesn't seem to agree
20:23:17 <shepazu> ... ROC put up some options... I don't have personal preferences, I am just curious what others think we should do?
20:24:44 <ed> http://dev.w3.org/Graphics-FX/modules/2D-transforms/spec/2DTransforms.html
20:24:57 <shepazu> anthony: the most pertinent point for this discussion is point 1: "Elements with SVG transform attributes must default to top-left as their
20:25:00 <shepazu> transform origin, but CSS transforms default to the center."
20:25:06 <shepazu> anthony: not sure the spec reflects the group decision at this point
20:25:32 <shepazu> ed: I think it does reflect this first point
20:26:00 <shepazu> ... for backwards compatibility
20:26:59 <smfr> http://dev.w3.org/Graphics-FX/modules/2D-transforms/spec/2DTransforms.html#transform-origin
20:28:08 <shepazu> ed: 'transform-origin' property has an initial value of center (50%,50%) for CSS, and origin (0,0) for SVG
20:28:38 <ed> initial value is auto
20:28:46 <ed> but it maps to those
20:29:03 <Zakim> +[Apple]
20:29:12 <hober> Zakim, Apple has hober
20:29:12 <Zakim> +hober; got it
20:30:18 <shepazu> anthony: seems like people are leaning toward roc's option 1a: "1a) Introduce a UA style rule that sets transform-origin to "top left" for all SVG elements."
20:31:11 <shepazu> anthony: would this apply before or after the transform is applied?
20:31:34 <shepazu> smfr: SVG or CSS transform?
20:32:01 <shepazu> anthony: I thought we were doing a 1-1 mapping?
20:33:31 <shepazu> smfr: not sure how they interact
20:34:00 <shepazu> shepazu: do CSS transforms override or supplement SVG transforms?
20:34:20 <shepazu> ChrisL: depends on if @transform is promoted to a CSS property
20:35:03 <ChrisL> if its promoted toa property then a style rule overrides. if not,then they could be defined to combine. Depends what we want
20:37:36 <shepazu> ed: I did an experimental implementation that did a post-multiply, and it seemed easy enough to use, but felt a bit strange not to have @transform as a property
20:37:53 <Zakim> -smfr
20:37:59 <Zakim> -TabAtkins
20:38:10 <ChrisL> Not promoting transform to a property minimises the backwards compatibility issues and means the dom still works as it did before
20:38:21 <shepazu> ed: didn't experiment much, but that was the easiest way
20:41:02 <shepazu> anthony: what about animation?
20:42:24 <shepazu> shepazu: still works for animating with CSS animations
20:42:58 <shepazu> ChrisL: I think the simpler path is not promoting @transform to a property, and just define how they combine
20:43:12 <shepazu> shepazu: I tend to agree, though ed's point is taken
20:43:53 <shepazu> ed: yeah, that solves the DOM issues as well
20:44:57 <shepazu> shepazu: my only concern would be for SVG UAs that don't support CSS, but I think those are dwindling
20:45:10 <ed> s/to have @transform as a property/to have @transform as a presentation attribute/
20:47:23 <shepazu> anthony: would CSS transforms still apply to SVG
20:47:55 <shepazu> ChrisL: yes, they would be separate sources of transformation, and you would simply post-multiply them
20:48:08 <shepazu> Resolution: pending further discussion with other stakeholders, we will not define @transform as a presentation attribute
20:48:48 <shepazu> Action: anthony to reply to Roc's email with our suggested resolution
20:48:48 <trackbot> Created ACTION-28 - Reply to Roc's email with our suggested resolution [on Anthony Grasso - due 2011-04-11].
20:51:10 <shepazu> Topic: Filter Effects status update
20:51:25 <ed> http://www.w3.org/mid/4A2DB3AE4504E944AF122BBFBA7FBA1F582D2DC1@TK5EX14MBXC114.redmond.corp.microsoft.com
20:53:01 <shepazu> ChrisL: my impression is that CSS people want it to be very simple, and that adding borders, backgrounds, etc complicates it, so a better would be to add new 'in's to the SVG filter primitives 
20:53:44 <shepazu> ChrisL: simon had a counterproposal with separate names, but that raised the question of how they combined
20:54:14 <shepazu> ed: I think I'm in favor of having different inputs, and we could define them for the SVG case
20:55:06 <ed> s/having different inputs,/having additional filter input image keywords,/
20:55:06 <shepazu> ChrisL: for instance, for things that don't use the CSS box model, you would just use transparent black for the border image (for example)
20:55:46 <shepazu> ed: we already have 'backgroundImage', but could do it differently for HTML
20:56:16 <Zakim> -ChrisL
20:56:48 <Zakim> +ChrisL
20:56:56 <shepazu> action: ed to add filter input image keywords for CSS and HTML
20:56:57 <trackbot> Created ACTION-29 - Add filter input image keywords for CSS and HTML [on Erik Dahlström - due 2011-04-11].
20:57:27 <shepazu> ed: would like to have a list... background of element, border, content box...
20:57:42 <shepazu> ChrisL: padding is always transparent...
20:57:58 <shepazu> ... so, that's a good list
20:58:45 <shepazu> ChrisL: start with simple ones, like solid and dotted border, and give it a dropshadow
20:59:39 <shepazu> ... then experiment with 9-box, apply effects... string of pearls, celtic knot... 
21:00:32 <shepazu> ... take the alpha channel of the border image to produce a dropshadow, I think that would be compelling
21:01:18 <shepazu> ed: I'll also try to combine SVG Compositing to filters.... haven't looked at it yet... 
21:02:02 <shepazu> action: ed to add normative reference to SVG Compositing in Filters, and merge them where it applies
21:02:02 <trackbot> Created ACTION-30 - Add normative reference to SVG Compositing in Filters, and merge them where it applies [on Erik Dahlström - due 2011-04-11].
21:02:24 <Zakim> -ChrisL
21:02:25 <Zakim> -[Apple]
21:02:26 <Zakim> -ed
21:02:26 <Zakim> -Doug_Schepers
21:02:28 <Zakim> -anthony
21:02:35 <cabanier> cabanier has left #fx
21:02:38 <Zakim> - +1.206.675.aaaa
21:02:39 <Zakim> GA_FXTF()4:00PM has ended
21:02:40 <Zakim> Attendees were smfr, +1.206.675.aaaa, Doug_Schepers, ed, +1.650.253.aabb, TabAtkins, ChrisL, anthony, hober
21:03:42 <shepazu> trackbot: end telcon
21:03:42 <trackbot> Zakim, list attendees
21:03:42 <Zakim> sorry, trackbot, I don't know what conference this is
21:03:43 <trackbot> RRSAgent, please draft minutes
21:03:43 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/04/04-fx-minutes.html trackbot
21:03:44 <trackbot> RRSAgent, bye
21:03:44 <RRSAgent> I see 3 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2011/04/04-fx-actions.rdf :
21:03:44 <RRSAgent> ACTION: anthony to reply to Roc's email with our suggested resolution [1]
21:03:44 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2011/04/04-fx-irc#T20-48-48
21:03:44 <RRSAgent> ACTION: ed to add filter input image keywords for CSS and HTML [2]
21:03:44 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2011/04/04-fx-irc#T20-56-56
21:03:44 <RRSAgent> ACTION: ed to add normative reference to SVG Compositing in Filters, and merge them where it applies [3]
21:03:44 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2011/04/04-fx-irc#T21-02-02