13:56:37 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #lld
13:56:37 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2011/03/31-lld-irc
13:56:42 <pmurray> zakim, who is on the call
13:56:42 <Zakim> I don't understand 'who is on the call', pmurray
13:56:48 <emma> zakim, this will be LLD
13:56:48 <Zakim> ok, emma, I see INC_LLDXG()10:00AM already started
13:56:51 <pmurray> zakim, who is on the phone
13:56:51 <Zakim> I don't understand 'who is on the phone', pmurray
13:57:05 <emma> Chair: Emmanuelle
13:57:06 <Zakim> - +1.404.892.aaaa
13:57:07 <Zakim> INC_LLDXG()10:00AM has ended
13:57:07 <Zakim> Attendees were +1.404.892.aaaa
13:57:09 <kcoyle> kcoyle has joined #lld
13:57:18 <emma> zakim, this will be lld
13:57:18 <Zakim> ok, emma; I see INC_LLDXG()10:00AM scheduled to start in 3 minutes
13:57:22 <Zakim> INC_LLDXG()10:00AM has now started
13:57:29 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
13:57:33 <Zakim> +??P5
13:57:36 <GordonD> GordonD has joined #lld
13:57:41 <Zakim> + +1.404.892.aaaa
13:57:47 <antoine> zakim, IPcaller is me
13:57:47 <Zakim> +antoine; got it
13:57:48 <pmurray> zakim, aaaa is me
13:57:49 <Zakim> +pmurray; got it
13:57:49 <Zakim> +emma
13:57:58 <Zakim> +boris
13:58:14 <antoine> zakim, who is here?
13:58:17 <Zakim> On the phone I see antoine, ??P5, pmurray (muted), emma, boris
13:58:18 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
13:58:36 <antoine> zakim, IPcaller is AlexanderH
13:58:36 <Zakim> +AlexanderH; got it
13:58:45 <marcia> marcia has joined #lld
13:58:51 <Zakim> +michaelp
13:58:52 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
13:58:55 <emma> Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xg-lld/2011Mar/0088.html
13:59:01 <jeff_> zakim, michaelp is me
13:59:01 <Zakim> +jeff_; got it
13:59:04 <antoine> zakim, ??P5 is TomB
13:59:04 <Zakim> +TomB; got it
13:59:14 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/03/31-lld-minutes.html TomB
13:59:16 <Zakim> +rsinger
13:59:30 <fsasaki> fsasaki has joined #lld
13:59:31 <emma> Previous: http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/minutes/2011/03/24-lld-minutes.html
13:59:33 <Zakim> +marcia
13:59:40 <jeff_> zakim, mute me
13:59:40 <Zakim> jeff_ should now be muted
13:59:46 <emma> rrsagent, please draft minutes
13:59:46 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/03/31-lld-minutes.html emma
14:00:01 <emma> rrsagent, please make record public
14:00:10 <emma> Scribe: Gordon
14:00:23 <kai> kai has joined #lld
14:00:35 <marcia> Zakim, mute me
14:00:35 <emma> scribenick:GordonD
14:00:38 <Zakim> marcia should now be muted
14:00:46 <uldis> uldis has joined #lld
14:00:52 <Zakim> +??P19
14:00:55 <TomB> rrsagent, please make record public
14:00:56 <Zakim> +??P20
14:01:06 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/03/31-lld-minutes.html TomB
14:01:11 <Zakim> +??P22
14:01:18 <uldis> Uldis here. regrets, i can only participate via IRC today.
14:01:20 <emma> zakim, who's here
14:01:20 <Zakim> emma, you need to end that query with '?'
14:01:29 <antoine> zakim, ??P33 is ww
14:01:29 <Zakim> sorry, antoine, I do not recognize a party named '??P33'
14:01:31 <emma> zakim, who's here ?
14:01:33 <Zakim> On the phone I see antoine, TomB, pmurray (muted), emma, boris, AlexanderH, jeff_ (muted), [IPcaller], rsinger, marcia (muted), felix, ??P20, ??P22
14:01:36 <antoine> zakim, ??P22 is ww
14:01:36 <Zakim> +ww; got it
14:01:39 <kai> zakim, +??P20 is me
14:01:39 <Zakim> sorry, kai, I do not recognize a party named '+??P20'
14:01:43 <TomB> zakim, this will be lld
14:01:43 <Zakim> ok, TomB, I see INC_LLDXG()10:00AM already started
14:01:45 <antoine> zakim, who is here?
14:01:45 <Zakim> On the phone I see antoine, TomB, pmurray (muted), emma, boris, AlexanderH, jeff_ (muted), [IPcaller], rsinger, marcia (muted), felix, ??P20, ww
14:01:45 <kai> zakim, ??P20 is me
14:01:48 <Zakim> +kai; got it
14:01:48 <Zakim> + +1.763.463.aabb
14:01:50 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/03/31-lld-minutes.html TomB
14:01:53 <jodi> zakim, aabb is Jodi
14:01:54 <Zakim> +Jodi; got it
14:01:59 <emma> zakim, IPcaller is GordonD
14:01:59 <Zakim> +GordonD; got it
14:02:01 <antoine> zakim, who is here?
14:02:01 <Zakim> On the phone I see antoine, TomB, pmurray (muted), emma, boris, AlexanderH, jeff_ (muted), GordonD, rsinger, marcia (muted), felix (muted), kai, ww, Jodi
14:02:26 <GordonD> Gordon laughs ...
14:02:56 <michaelp> michaelp has joined #lld
14:03:08 <emma> Meeting: LLD XG
14:03:30 <GordonD> Topic: ADMIN
14:03:50 <Zakim> +??P26
14:04:18 <emma> zakim, ??P26 is kcoyle
14:04:18 <Zakim> +kcoyle; got it
14:04:27 <GordonD> RESOLVED: Accept minutes of previous conference http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/minutes/2011/03/24-lld-minutes.html
14:05:01 <GordonD> Topic: FINAL REPORT DRAFT
14:05:44 <GordonD> ACTION: For Gordon and Karen to consider relation between problems and limitation section and the library resource wiki page. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/minutes/2011/03/24-lld-minutes.html#action01]
14:05:49 <GordonD> -- continues
14:06:14 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
14:06:18 <GordonD> Topic: Benefits of LD for libraries
14:06:29 <digikim> Zakim, +[IPcaller] is digikim.
14:06:29 <Zakim> sorry, digikim, I do not recognize a party named '+[IPcaller]'
14:06:30 <Zakim> +[LC]
14:06:34 <GordonD> ACTION: emma and ed to start curating a section on benefits of LLD for libraries [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/minutes/2011/02/24-lld-minutes.html#action06]
14:06:37 <edsu> Zakim, LC is edsu
14:06:38 <Zakim> +edsu; got it
14:06:44 <digikim> Zakim, IPcaller is digikim.
14:06:44 <Zakim> +digikim; got it
14:06:51 <antoine> great timing, edsu :-)
14:06:57 <edsu> antoine: :-)
14:07:16 <rsinger> http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/wiki/Draft_Benefits#Draft
14:07:46 <GordonD> -- done
14:08:02 <GordonD> ACTION: edsu, rsinger, emma to create a few bullet points on the benefits of linked data in libraries for the call on March 31st [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2011/03/17-lld-minutes.html#action01]
14:08:18 <digikim> hello, I would like to read the whole report and provide my/our comments -- can I download the report as a single web page (or pdf file) somewhere?
14:08:28 <digikim> http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/wiki/DraftReport  <-- I'm aware of this URL
14:08:30 <GordonD> edsu: Held skype call to brainstorm benefits
14:08:51 <GordonD> ... Discussed who benefits
14:08:52 <TomB> Gordon, the ACTION on emma and ed may need to be closed manually after the call (by editing the HTML)
14:10:32 <GordonD> rsinger: Identified four categories
14:10:42 <TomB> s/edsu/rsinger/
14:10:46 <antoine> @digikim: that would be great, but there's no full report now! Perhaps a topic for the AOB part at the end of the call?
14:11:08 <GordonD> ... Biggest promise is that each community can describe its world in the way it wants to
14:11:11 <ww> zakim, mute me
14:11:12 <Zakim> ww should now be muted
14:11:38 <Zakim> +jeff_.a
14:12:33 <digikim> antoine: ok
14:13:03 <GordonD> ... Libraries may have a central role in linked data for cultural heritage communities
14:14:43 <GordonD> ... LD allows layered creation of metadata, starting with identifiers
14:15:13 <ww> q+ to remind that identifiers for authority records not only holdings are extremely valuable
14:15:33 <GordonD> ... LD allows end-users to see integration with data they are more familiar with
14:15:34 <ww> q- because edsu just made my point
14:15:39 <ww> q-
14:16:22 <GordonD> edsu: LD easier for developers to work with
14:17:12 <jneubert> jneubert has joined #lld
14:17:32 <TomB> +1 "infinitely expandable description" is great.  Is the phrase new?
14:17:34 <GordonD> rsinger: is probably best/most hope for opening data to other domains
14:17:52 <Zakim> +jneubert
14:18:28 <jeff_> the predicates should also be dereferencable for cases where they aren't named intuitively
14:18:31 <kcoyle> q+
14:18:33 <GordonD> ... Web provides infrastructure, so need to develop another one
14:19:03 <GordonD> ... We are not alone; others can/will help
14:20:55 <GordonD> ... LD provenance problem is being resolved
14:22:41 <antoine> q+ on "opening data" in Organization section
14:22:52 <GordonD> ... Organizations need to understand that their data is more valuable if openly-published for others to work on
14:23:16 <GordonD> ... a counter-argument to concerns about revenue streams, IPR, etc.
14:24:46 <GordonD> ... Considered differences between digital library and LD
14:25:24 <GordonD> ... LD allows finer granularity for re-use of metadata and use in resource discovery
14:26:16 <antoine> q+ open world or open data?
14:26:26 <antoine> q+ to ask about open world or open data?
14:27:21 <GordonD> ... Library authorities data can be managed on a distributed basis
14:28:26 <antoine> q+ on take an action on cluster editors to check emma's list
14:28:33 <GordonD> Emma: initial bullet-points will be used to double-check other areas of report
14:29:11 <edsu> q+ to mention prose idea
14:30:22 <GordonD> RESOLVED: Action on cluster owners to check the bullet-point list reflects their understanding and covers relevant points
14:30:47 <GordonD> ACTION: Cluster owners to check the bullet-point list reflects their understanding and covers relevant points
14:30:50 <emma> ack karen
14:30:57 <emma> ack kc
14:31:49 <GordonD> kcoyle: End-user category should be expanded; this is the most important group that decision-makers will consider
14:31:49 <marcia> + 1 Karen's point
14:32:42 <jodi> (for me, integration *is* a goal -- because it prevents libraries being lost in the shuffle)
14:32:53 <GordonD> ... Also expand point about integration with the Web for resource discovery
14:34:13 <GordonD> edsu: This is a real challenge for LD
14:34:15 <antoine> There are users that could create data: researcher, general annotators (flickr-like platforms)
14:34:30 <GordonD> kcoyle: Libraries are service organizations
14:35:05 <antoine> s/create data/create and remix data
14:35:49 <GordonD> rsinger: Leap of faith that LD resource discovery interfaces will happen - other benefits are more obvious and immediate
14:36:31 <GordonD> kcoyle: We should emphasis user-centric benefits
14:36:47 <edsu> kcoyle: please feel free to move things that yo~u think should be moved
14:37:22 <GordonD> s/emphasis/emphasise/
14:37:59 <jodi> maybe those objections are worth listing!
14:38:10 <jodi> to make a kind of Q&A -- with the responses to those objections...
14:38:12 <GordonD> kcoyle: Experience shows a lot of objections when discussing LD with libraries
14:38:19 <jodi> kcoyle++
14:38:31 <jodi> "respond to those objections in the final report"
14:38:54 <GordonD> ... Final report should acknowledge and respond to such objections
14:39:27 <dvilasuero> +1 karen's point
14:39:36 <emma> ack ant
14:39:36 <Zakim> antoine, you wanted to comment on "opening data" in Organization section and to ask about open world or open data? and to comment on take an action on cluster editors to check
14:39:40 <Zakim> ... emma's list
14:39:42 <GordonD> rsinger: Agrees with kcoyle that social benefits are important
14:39:44 <edsu> kcoyle: just added "How to get there from here" in the General section, but it might be better suited for the Recommendations
14:40:13 <kcoyle> edsu: thanks
14:40:23 <GordonD> antoine: What does Open world mean - it is ambiguous
14:40:53 <GordonD> rsinger: Bullet-point probably refers to open data, not Open World Assumption
14:41:11 <kcoyle> yes, that's one of the big objections that always comes up
14:41:33 <emma> q+ to challenge the "RDF is cross-domain" assumption
14:41:36 <GordonD> ... Point needs to be tightened up
14:42:11 <marcia> q+
14:43:11 <GordonD> antoine: Organizations don't have to release all their data, openly
14:43:20 <emma> ack ed
14:43:20 <Zakim> edsu, you wanted to mention prose idea
14:43:20 <kai> +1 to clearly distinguish between benefits of open data and benefits of linked data, and of course benefits of linked open data.
14:43:38 <GordonD> rsinger: Agree, open data can act like an advertisement for the organization and its data
14:44:38 <antoine> q+ on organization of section
14:44:41 <Zakim> -felix
14:44:43 <GordonD> edsu: Would like another week to create narrative text from the bullet-points, which are not user-friendly
14:45:00 <jodi> I think it's useful to keep the bullet points as well -- so please don't overwrite them
14:45:08 <jodi> (sometimes people prefer bullet points for some purposes)
14:45:14 <rsinger> jodi: we won't!
14:45:19 <jodi> thanks Ross! :)
14:45:27 <GordonD> ACTION: edsu, emma, rsinger to create narrative text and add to bullet-points
14:45:33 <emma> ack me
14:45:33 <Zakim> emma, you wanted to challenge the "RDF is cross-domain" assumption
14:45:35 <edsu> jodi: ok :)
14:46:20 <uldis> +1 re distinction b/w linked data and linked open data -- both can be useful to libraries
14:46:42 <rsinger> +1 # about the model
14:46:45 <edsu> TomB: great, i guess we should talk again on skype
14:46:46 <jeff_> +1 on the idea that RDF is about the model
14:46:52 <TomB> +1 on Skype
14:46:56 <GordonD> emma: Challenge assumption that RDF makes everything easy - it is no different from XML in that respect
14:47:07 <uldis> there may be cases when linked data is used inside an organisation (between its information systems) without necessarily being open to everyone. (though open would be better :)
14:47:08 <jodi> +1 to "common data model"
14:47:32 <GordonD> ... It is the common data model that makes things easy
14:48:08 <jeff_> I think the idea of OWL is important when we talk about models
14:48:30 <jodi> there is an identifier you can use to overlay your own description -- so that's not quite as static as MARC, I think
14:48:50 <GordonD> edsu: RDF and XML cannot be said to be mutually exclusive
14:49:22 <ww> q+ to point out that thinking of rdf in terms of xml causes a lot of confusion and misunderstanding 
14:49:24 <GordonD> ... Use of identifiers is the big advantage of RDF over XML
14:49:29 <emma> ack marc
14:49:58 <ww> q-
14:51:05 <GordonD> marcia: Librarians are end-users, so LD can reduce workload, etc., but are also intermediaries and can fall into two categories
14:51:24 <GordonD> We are ALL end-users
14:51:28 <emma> ack ant
14:51:28 <Zakim> antoine, you wanted to comment on organization of section
14:51:37 <marcia> zakim, mute me
14:51:37 <Zakim> marcia should now be muted
14:51:47 <TomB> q?
14:52:26 <GordonD> antoine: Will group categories be kept in the final version of this section? They are very helpful
14:53:10 <jodi> zakim, who is here?
14:53:10 <Zakim> On the phone I see antoine, TomB, pmurray (muted), emma, boris, AlexanderH, jeff_ (muted), GordonD (muted), rsinger, marcia (muted), kai, ww (muted), Jodi, kcoyle, digikim, edsu,
14:53:13 <Zakim> ... michaelp (muted), jneubert (muted)
14:53:15 <GordonD> edsu: Yes, intention is that each group will have its own narrative paragraph
14:54:24 <antoine> developers are not part of society ? ;-)
14:54:34 <rsinger> antoine: they aren't civilized, that's for sure
14:54:51 <antoine> :-)
14:55:09 <GordonD> emma: Suggest presenting in the form of stories aimed at different consumers
14:55:19 <GordonD> edsu: Would need to be short stories!
14:55:24 <emma> ack tom
14:55:38 <antoine> q?
14:56:50 <GordonD> emma: Should think about prioritising/ordering bullets
14:56:56 <antoine> If the number of items is not big per category, order won't matter too much I think
14:57:54 <GordonD> emma: Need to address audience beyond the library community
14:58:12 <antoine> Daniel!
14:58:22 <dvilasuero> Hi
14:58:23 <rsinger> close enough :)
14:58:32 <GordonD> emma: Introduces Daniel, our new member
14:58:51 <TomB> Great that you are taking on the UC report, Daniel.  Welcome!
14:58:56 <antoine> +1
14:59:28 <GordonD> dvilasuero: I will be producing the use-case/clusters overview, and welcome any assistance
14:59:40 <edsu> dvilasuero++
14:59:53 <GordonD> ... Hopes to report on progress next week
15:00:07 <Zakim> -TomB
15:00:08 <Zakim> -edsu
15:00:15 <edsu> oops, i just got disconnected :-)
15:00:16 <jneubert> bye
15:00:17 <Zakim> -marcia
15:00:17 <rsinger> thanks!
15:00:19 <Zakim> +??P27
15:00:21 <jodi> jodi has left #LLD
15:00:22 <Zakim> -jeff_
15:00:24 <Zakim> -kcoyle
15:00:24 <antoine> me too!
15:00:24 <Zakim> -pmurray
15:00:25 <dvilasuero> thank you very much!
15:00:25 <Zakim> -michaelp
15:00:26 <ww> thanks! bye bye for now
15:00:27 <jeff_> jeff_ has left #lld
15:00:28 <Zakim> -AlexanderH
15:00:30 <Zakim> -ww
15:00:31 <Zakim> -digikim
15:00:31 <Zakim> -kai
15:00:32 <GordonD> rsaget please draft minutes
15:00:33 <Zakim> -Jodi
15:00:35 <digikim> thnx
15:00:37 <TomB> I'm still here, so "TomB" must have been a different handle
15:00:39 <Zakim> -boris
15:00:41 <Zakim> -jneubert
15:00:44 <emma> rrsagen, please draft minutes
15:00:45 <GordonD> rsagent, please draft minutes
15:00:46 <antoine> zakim, please list attendees
15:00:53 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been +1.404.892.aaaa, antoine, pmurray, emma, boris, AlexanderH, jeff_, TomB, rsinger, marcia, felix, ww, kai, +1.763.463.aabb, Jodi, GordonD,
15:00:56 <emma> rrsagent, please draft minutes
15:00:56 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/03/31-lld-minutes.html emma
15:00:58 <Zakim> ... kcoyle, edsu, digikim, michaelp, jneubert
15:01:42 <michaelp> michaelp has left #lld
15:01:54 <Zakim> -GordonD
15:01:56 <Zakim> -??P27
15:02:04 <Zakim> -emma
15:02:08 <Zakim> -antoine
15:02:30 <TomB> zakim, ??P27 was really TomB
15:02:35 <pmurray> pmurray has left #lld
15:02:43 <Zakim> I don't understand '??P27 was really TomB', TomB
15:02:57 <TomB> zakim, ??P27 was TomB
15:03:04 <TomB> zakim, ??P27 is really TomB
15:03:07 <Zakim> I don't understand '??P27 was TomB', TomB
15:03:15 <Zakim> +TomB; got it
15:03:31 <TomB> rrsagent, please draft minutes
15:03:31 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/03/31-lld-minutes.html TomB
15:03:31 <emma> zakim, sometimes you're really stubborn
15:03:37 <Zakim> I don't understand 'sometimes you're really stubborn', emma
15:03:38 <TomB> :-)
15:04:08 <emma> zakim, go away !
15:04:08 <Zakim> I don't understand 'go away !', emma
15:04:13 <emma> zakim, bye
15:04:13 <Zakim> leaving.  As of this point the attendees were +1.404.892.aaaa, antoine, pmurray, emma, boris, AlexanderH, jeff_, TomB, rsinger, marcia, felix, ww, kai, +1.763.463.aabb, Jodi,
15:04:13 <Zakim> Zakim has left #lld
15:04:15 <antoine> are you addicted to talking to zakimn, now?!
15:04:25 <emma> I just love zakim :-)
15:04:35 <TomB> zakim, list attendees
15:04:42 <antoine> You seem ready for a t-shirt (if they still have them) ;-)
15:04:53 <emma> I may ask Coralie ;-)
15:05:03 <emma> Sorry Tom, I dissmissed zakim
15:05:08 <antoine> Tom is even talking to him after he's been dismissed. Cute :-)
15:05:25 <emma> May I dissmiss rrsagent too ? or you still have to talk to hiù
15:05:36 <TomB> I don't have anything to say to rrsagent
15:05:45 <antoine> neither have I
15:05:51 <emma> ok, right, he's not so smart as zakim ;-)
15:05:52 <TomB> Ask zakim
15:05:56 <emma> rrsagent, bye
15:05:56 <RRSAgent> I see 5 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2011/03/31-lld-actions.rdf :
15:05:56 <RRSAgent> ACTION: For Gordon and Karen to consider relation between problems and limitation section and the library resource wiki page. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/minutes/2011/03/24-lld-minutes.html#action01] [1]
15:05:56 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2011/03/31-lld-irc#T14-05-44
15:05:56 <RRSAgent> ACTION: emma and ed to start curating a section on benefits of LLD for libraries [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/minutes/2011/02/24-lld-minutes.html#action06] [2]
15:05:56 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2011/03/31-lld-irc#T14-06-34
15:05:56 <RRSAgent> ACTION: edsu, rsinger, emma to create a few bullet points on the benefits of linked data in libraries for the call on March 31st [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2011/03/17-lld-minutes.html#action01] [3]
15:05:56 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2011/03/31-lld-irc#T14-08-02
15:05:56 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Cluster owners to check the bullet-point list reflects their understanding and covers relevant points [4]
15:05:56 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2011/03/31-lld-irc#T14-30-47
15:05:56 <RRSAgent> ACTION: edsu, emma, rsinger to create narrative text and add to bullet-points [5]
15:05:56 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2011/03/31-lld-irc#T14-45-27
15:06:24 <TomB> byebye, rrsagent...!