IRC log of poiwg on 2011-03-29

Timestamps are in UTC.

08:16:39 [RRSAgent]
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08:16:39 [RRSAgent]
logging to http://www.w3.org/2011/03/29-poiwg-irc
08:16:41 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, make logs public
08:16:41 [Zakim]
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08:16:43 [trackbot]
Zakim, this will be UW_POI
08:16:43 [Zakim]
I do not see a conference matching that name scheduled within the next hour, trackbot
08:16:43 [matt]
Agenda: http://www.w3.org/2010/POI/wiki/Face_to_Face_Meetings/March_2011#Agenda
08:16:44 [trackbot]
Meeting: Points of Interest Working Group Teleconference
08:16:44 [trackbot]
Date: 29 March 2011
08:16:46 [matt]
Chair: matt
08:16:56 [matt]
matt has changed the topic to: Agenda:http://www.w3.org/2010/POI/wiki/Face_to_Face_Meetings/March_2011#Agenda
08:17:07 [matt]
Topic: Introductions
08:17:38 [JonathanJ]
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08:19:24 [jacques]
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08:20:28 [matt]
Scribe: Luca
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08:21:45 [Luca]
Round table
08:21:46 [matt]
Present: Matt, Christine, Fons, Alex, Jaques, Carsten, Jonathan, Dan, Ronald, Dirk
08:21:51 [matt]
Present+ Luca
08:22:13 [cperey]
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08:22:29 [Luca]
Fons kuijk new in Poi and he's interested in AR
08:22:41 [Luca]
Cristine Parey Invited experted
08:23:14 [matt]
[[New participants: Fons from W3C Office and CWI, Carsten from Ordnance Survey and OGC]]
08:23:34 [Luca]
Jonatan from Korea
08:23:46 [matt]
s/Korea/ETRI in Korea/
08:24:33 [Luca]
Dirk is cto o layar hosting the meeting
08:25:03 [Luca]
Dirk: thank you all to coming
08:25:20 [matt]
matt has changed the topic to: Agenda: http://www.w3.org/2010/POI/wiki/Face_to_Face_Meetings/March_2011#Agenda
08:25:26 [cperey]
Luca Lamorte, Telecom Italia, AR interest
08:25:51 [matt]
zakim, layar is member:Matt, Christine, member:Fons, Alex, Jaques, Carsten, Jonathan, Dan, member:Ronald, Dirk, Luca
08:25:51 [Zakim]
I don't understand you, matt
08:26:08 [danbri]
i'm Dan Brickley <http://danbri.org/>, occasional geo-geek, semi-lapsed WG member.
08:26:57 [matt]
Topic: Agenda
08:27:04 [matt]
rrsagent, draft minutes
08:27:04 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/03/29-poiwg-minutes.html matt
08:27:30 [matt]
matt has changed the topic to: Agenda: http://www.w3.org/2010/POI/wiki/Face_to_Face_Meetings/March_2011#Agenda Matt, Christine, Fons, Alex, Jaques, Carsten, Jonathan, Dan, Ronald, Dirk, Luca
08:27:30 [matt]
matt has changed the topic to: Agenda: http://www.w3.org/2010/POI/wiki/Face_to_Face_Meetings/March_2011#Agenda Matt, Christine, Fons, Alex, Jaques, Carsten, Jonathan, Dan, Ronald, Dirk, Luca
08:27:47 [matt]
rrsagent, makes logs public
08:27:47 [RRSAgent]
I'm logging. I don't understand 'makes logs public', matt. Try /msg RRSAgent help
08:27:57 [matt]
rrsagent, make logs public
08:28:02 [matt]
rrsagent, draft minutes
08:28:02 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/03/29-poiwg-minutes.html matt
08:28:41 [Luca]
Matt: first talk about the agenda
08:29:02 [Luca]
Matt: talk about talk about metadata stuff
08:29:20 [Luca]
matt: topic q
08:29:23 [matt]
-> http://www.w3.org/2010/POI/wiki/Face_to_Face_Meetings/March_2011#Agenda Agenda
08:29:25 [Luca]
sorry topic 1
08:30:04 [matt]
matt has changed the topic to: Agenda: http://www.w3.org/2010/POI/wiki/Face_to_Face_Meetings/March_2011#Agenda
08:30:26 [matt2]
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08:31:16 [Luca]
please look at the wiki page for the agenda
08:31:19 [JonathanJ]
Agenda: http://www.w3.org/2010/POI/wiki/Face_to_Face_Meetings/March_2011
08:32:17 [Luca]
How we going to plan the draft
08:32:32 [Luca]
alex want to talk next F2F
08:32:45 [Luca]
then we have some OMA requests
08:35:06 [danbri]
dan: I'm in the new RDF Working Group ... we have a deliverable of a JSON format for RDF. Group is currently trying to decide requirements for that, ... so if this POI WG has JSON needs, that could be good input.
08:35:12 [danbri]
... happy to be a liason
08:35:16 [Luca]
thanks Dan
08:35:34 [Luca]
Dan: Use to JSON and care of RDF
08:36:04 [danbri]
action: danbri circulate pointer to RDF WG JSON discussion
08:36:05 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-36 - Circulate pointer to RDF WG JSON discussion [on Dan Brickley - due 2011-04-05].
08:36:36 [Luca]
MATT: AR vocabulary
08:37:21 [matt]
q?
08:37:26 [Luca]
Any changes of agenda?
08:38:47 [matt]
-> http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/45386/POI-F2F-2011-1/results Results
08:39:27 [Luca_]
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08:40:46 [matt]
Topic: Planning First Public Working Draft
08:41:07 [matt]
-> http://www.w3.org/2010/POI/charter/ Charter
08:41:39 [Luca]
Matt: first draft called CORE it should be ready on April
08:41:57 [Luca]
april may it's not so bad
08:43:38 [JonathanJ]
W3C Process document : http://www.w3.org/2005/10/Process-20051014/tr.html#first-wd
08:43:56 [Luca]
how we want to go on the document?
08:44:10 [Luca]
we need so cohesion
08:44:17 [Luca]
a role of editor
08:44:27 [Luca]
the author is the working group
08:45:16 [Luca]
Editor should put on the proper format
08:45:32 [Luca]
anyone want to step forward?
08:46:08 [jacques]
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08:46:56 [Luca]
Matt: I can put a strong effort help on this issue
08:47:19 [Luca]
Matt: the editor is also the author
08:47:27 [Luca]
and we can work as we want
08:47:47 [Luca]
Alex: how we can expect ....
08:48:21 [Luca]
Matt: the social part
08:48:38 [Luca]
we can have hierarchy
08:49:22 [Luca]
so far people is scared on put things on the wiki
08:49:31 [Luca]
they prefer to send stuff by email
08:49:33 [Luca]
alex:
08:50:35 [JonathanJ]
we can also use to tracker system - http://www.w3.org/2010/POI/track/
08:52:37 [Luca]
Cars: it's good put stuff on the wiki and then stop a certain point
08:53:07 [Luca]
to make an agreement and edit them into the document
08:53:23 [Luca]
(right?)
08:54:01 [Luca]
Jack : it should be a native speaker of doing it
08:54:06 [Luca]
alex
08:54:08 [Luca]
:
08:54:09 [matt]
s/Jack/Fons/
08:55:55 [Luca]
cpery: there is not so match traffic on the mailing list
08:57:26 [Luca]
matt: we need to put more action points on the call, so it would be more effective
09:00:11 [cperey]
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09:01:08 [matt]
-> http://www.w3.org/2010/POI/track/ POI Tracker
09:01:26 [jacques]
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09:02:31 [matt]
RESOLUTION: Matt to start acting as informal editor. WG will bring together issues weekly for entering into wiki.
09:02:34 [danbri]
draft: http://www.w3.org/2010/POI/wiki/Core/Draft
09:03:11 [JonathanJ]
rrsagent, draft minutes
09:03:11 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/03/29-poiwg-minutes.html JonathanJ
09:04:41 [matt]
-> http://www.w3.org/2008/webapps/track/ Web App Tracker
09:05:03 [JonathanJ]
one of example from MWBP WG (closed WG) - http://www.w3.org/2005/MWI/BPWG/Group/track/
09:05:03 [Luca]
matt: we have raised 46 issues
09:05:15 [Luca]
and only 6 are closed
09:05:23 [matt]
-> http://www.w3.org/2008/webapps/track/issues/raised
09:05:26 [Luca]
http://www.w3.org/2005/06/tracker/webapi/issues/open
09:05:53 [matt]
-> http://www.w3.org/2005/MWI/BPWG/Group/track/issues/131 MWBP issue
09:05:55 [danbri]
http://www.w3.org/2005/MWI/BPWG/Group/track/issues/
09:07:32 [ahill2]
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09:07:38 [Luca]
look at one the isse
09:07:45 [danbri]
rrsagent, pointer?
09:07:45 [RRSAgent]
See http://www.w3.org/2011/03/29-poiwg-irc#T09-07-45
09:08:32 [Luca_]
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09:08:36 [Luca]
issue can also have actions associated on that
09:08:47 [JonathanJ]
rrsagent, draft minutes
09:08:47 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/03/29-poiwg-minutes.html JonathanJ
09:08:50 [Luca]
back to irc
09:10:05 [Luca]
matt: Move on the the next topic?
09:10:20 [danbri]
what do we have re requirements?
09:10:20 [danbri]
http://www.w3.org/2010/POI/wiki/index.php?title=Special%3ASearch&search=requirements&go=Go
09:10:24 [Luca]
Dan: can we look at the requirements?
09:10:27 [matt]
-> http://www.w3.org/2010/POI/wiki/Use_Cases Use Cases
09:10:41 [Luca]
matt: i start put some requirements
09:11:31 [matt]
-> http://www.w3.org/2010/POI/wiki/Requirements/
09:11:49 [Luca]
matt : I collect tech requirements here http://www.w3.org/2010/POI/wiki/Requirements
09:12:18 [Luca]
maybe we should go back into primitive
09:12:46 [Luca]
Alexi would say personally yes because I think we don't have finished the discission
09:12:58 [Luca]
we need a review
09:13:49 [cperey]
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09:14:50 [danbri]
I'm looking for stuff like: "I maintain a Web page listing points of interest in my city; what could/should I do to make this W3C POI compatible?"; "I'm building an AR app for iphone, what data structures should I create to hold W3C POI data?", "I'm building a database of POIs to back a social Web site, ... what minimum structure should it have to fit the W3C spec?", "I have a javascript library for plotting POIs on a 3D globe - https://mozilla
09:14:50 [danbri]
demos.org/demos/globetweeter/demo.html eg - ) ....etc"
09:15:17 [Luca]
Alex: My concerns about rilevants, we need a short review on what we have said
09:15:43 [matt]
-> http://www.w3.org/2010/POI/wiki/Use_Cases Current Use Cases
09:17:25 [Luca]
Alex : these use cases sounds to me like are almost the same
09:17:48 [JonathanJ]
https://mozillademos.org/demos/globetweeter/demo.html
09:17:56 [matt]
-> http://www.w3.org/2010/POI/wiki/Use_Cases#Augmented_Reality Christine's use cases
09:18:18 [Luca]
alex: I hope there are use case that covers all and not only one aspect
09:18:44 [Luca]
cperey: some agend are creating new content
09:23:29 [Luca]
alex: people have practical thing to do in their head and these has effect on the UC
09:25:05 [Luca]
alex: we need to spend more time on UC, because we got away from the story
09:26:14 [Luca]
carlst: we need to define what is out of scope
09:30:14 [Luca]
CPerey: maybe some of the issues is that
09:30:15 [danbri]
q+
09:30:44 [Luca]
OGC are more familiar on people who are
09:31:10 [danbri]
no
09:33:53 [danbri]
(matt, sure. notes here:) ... 2 proposals to make (test driving Issue-based discussion and decision making), (i) POI spec should make explicit ability to distinguish an organization (eg. a school) from the building/geo it inhabits (ii) POI spec should make explicit ability to distinguish organizational brands (Starbucks, CostaCoffee). Suggest we decide this in terms of personas for relevant use cases, eg. webdev working at starbucks; 3rd party
09:33:53 [danbri]
layar developer making a 'coffee hangouts' layer or iphone app....
09:34:16 [danbri]
(if we can spend a little time to walk thru discussing those and making or not making issues, that'd be lovely)
09:36:51 [Luca]
Alex: we need more people experts on different aspect we want to cover on POI
09:37:15 [Luca_]
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09:37:53 [Luca]
Danbry: 2 expample on modelling issues
09:38:12 [matt]
s/Danbry/danbri/
09:38:41 [Luca]
sorry too fast to me :(
09:38:51 [matt]
scribe: matt
09:39:11 [matt]
danbri: 1. Are we going to have explicit ability to distinguish between say an organization and it's buildings?
09:39:31 [matt]
danbri: 2. Distinctions between organizational brands, e.g. all of the Starbucks in Boston.
09:39:39 [matt]
danbri: I don't think we have enough use cases to cover these.
09:39:53 [matt]
danbri: I think we should have more personas, say GIS professional or AR developer
09:40:12 [matt]
danbri: Say, I've spent time building a layer of Amsterdam coffee shops, how does that person relate to the spec?
09:41:21 [matt]
-> http://www.w3.org/2010/POI/track/issues/new Create a new issue
09:41:50 [ahill2]
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09:42:29 [ahill2]
asd
09:43:27 [matt]
s/coffee shops/restaurants/
09:43:59 [jacques]
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09:45:28 [danbri]
http://www.w3.org/2010/POI/track/issues/2
09:45:35 [matt]
-> http://www.w3.org/2010/POI/track/issues/2 organizations vs places
09:46:54 [matt]
[[WG works through capturing issues in tracker]]
09:47:05 [cperey]
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09:48:42 [matt]
ahill2_: Let's not necessarily flesh it out now, but log it and get us into the habit of raising issues.
09:49:21 [matt]
-> http://colloquy.info/ Colloquy Mac client
09:49:24 [matt]
rrsagent, draft minutes
09:49:24 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/03/29-poiwg-minutes.html matt
09:49:56 [cr]
cr has joined #poiwg
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09:50:48 [Carsten]
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09:51:21 [ahill2_]
rrs agent draft minutes
09:51:23 [cperey]
rrsagent,draft minutes
09:51:23 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/03/29-poiwg-minutes.html cperey
09:52:04 [matt]
q?
09:52:07 [matt]
ack danbri
09:52:19 [JonathanJ]
help about rrsagent - http://www.w3.org/2002/03/RRSAgent
09:52:54 [Luca]
next f2f
09:52:56 [matt]
Topic: Next F2F
09:53:00 [matt]
scribe: Luca
09:53:08 [JonathanJ]
manual for zakim - http://www.w3.org/2001/12/zakim-irc-bot.html
09:53:27 [Luca]
hosting the meeting ...
09:53:33 [danbri]
( re above discussion see http://www.w3.org/2010/POI/track/issues/3 poi-brands --- and a bit of discussion re process )
09:53:51 [Luca]
2/3 per year
09:53:58 [Luca]
big meeting in novemeber
09:54:04 [Luca]
in Santa Clara
09:54:18 [matt]
-> http://www.w3.org/2011/11/TPAC/ TPAC 2011
09:54:42 [Luca]
So from October 31st
09:55:02 [Luca]
there is a plenary where all WGs are in the same room
09:55:29 [Luca]
and each groups talk about what's going on
09:56:04 [matt]
->http://www.ismar11.org/ ISMAR 2011
09:57:07 [Luca]
cperay: the OGC has a meeting in setp
09:57:42 [matt]
-> http://www.opengeospatial.org/event/1109tc OGC Technical Plenary
09:58:03 [Luca]
cperay: it's better to avoid meeting while there are other at the same time in other place
09:58:22 [Luca]
that was one the problem during Atlanta's one
09:59:04 [Luca]
The next one should be in ASIA
09:59:35 [Luca]
alex: what does meaning hosting rotating
09:59:36 [Luca]
?
10:00:07 [Luca]
cperey: we don't have ideal time for meeting on each continent
10:00:37 [JonathanJ]
we can host a meeting in seoul
10:01:31 [JonathanJ]
a few weeks ago, we hosted DAP WG meeting in Seoul - http://www.w3.org/2009/dap/wiki/SeoulF2F2011
10:02:10 [Luca]
we should have one meeting in summer
10:02:35 [Luca]
cperey : also OGC has volontarie for hosting
10:03:26 [Luca]
cperay: would like to OGC members to partecipate
10:04:38 [Luca]
OGC will pay the place/food/registrstion
10:05:41 [danbri]
re OpenStreetMap I find http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/State_Of_The_Map_2011/Bid/Denver but not the final url
10:06:08 [Luca_]
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10:08:32 [Luca]
Alex: how we connect organization like W3C with OpenStreepMap
10:09:07 [Luca]
Alex: Just a practical question
10:10:18 [JonathanJ]
If we can host a meeting in seoul, potential Korean company(LG and Samsung) and Korean AR guys could be join us.
10:10:23 [Luca]
Rusume proposal on WIKI
10:13:22 [matt]
-> http://www.w3.org/2010/POI/wiki/Face_to_Face_Meetings/2011_Future_Face_to_Face_Meetings
10:13:33 [danbri]
proposal maybe? "POI Core format should be capable of round-tripping Open StreetMap data for points, potentially using extension mechanisms to capture any extra info needed. A draft CR exit criteria?"
10:14:09 [danbri]
OSM data: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Planet.osm
10:14:24 [Luca]
alex: how POI describe OpenStreetMap
10:14:46 [matt]
PROPOSED RESOLUTION: Meet face to face 3 times this year
10:15:13 [matt]
http://www.w3.org/2010/POI/track/issues/4
10:15:49 [fons]
rrsagent,draft minutes
10:15:49 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/03/29-poiwg-minutes.html fons
10:20:15 [matt]
Scribe: matt
10:20:45 [matt]
cperey: There was a two day meeting after Barcelona. This group wasn't represented.
10:21:02 [matt]
cperey: Alex gave a presentation, Andy was planning to come but couldn't make it.
10:21:21 [matt]
cperey: OGC proposed to make itself the administrative platform for a loose community of those who care about standards.
10:21:35 [matt]
cperey: George Percival made a presentation and a pitch about it.
10:22:45 [matt]
cperey: I've had a few meetings of international standards community that have brought together 50-60 people. Half presentation half discussion.
10:23:11 [matt]
cperey: One proposal is that the OGC take the lead.
10:23:20 [matt]
cperey: There has been some pushback. No decision has been made.
10:23:30 [matt]
q+ to ask what this organization would do?
10:23:38 [matt]
cperey: We didn't have visibility into other standards organizations?
10:23:41 [danbri]
(this all about AR...)
10:23:42 [matt]
s/?/./
10:24:19 [matt]
cperey: It's informal, grassroots, people can contribute, but since it's informal, it doesn't get official recognition.
10:24:31 [matt]
danbri: Similarly WHATWG made things and made people listen.
10:24:53 [matt]
cperey: There's a very high quality discussion on the list. It's very AR focused, not focused on one specific domain.
10:25:38 [matt]
cperey: So proposal for f2f to be at the next OGC meeting, I went to George and said "we can't just continue to do the same formula", need to have concrete objectives. Can't just say we'll chat about position papers.
10:26:13 [danbri]
see also http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-poiwg/2011Jan/0021.html http://arstandards.org/mailman/listinfo/discussion http://arstandards.org/pipermail/discussion/
10:26:19 [matt]
cperey: So the accepted proposal was that OGC set up liaison between OGC and other organizations and then a meeting outside the OGC, where others can attend who weren't members.
10:26:31 [danbri]
lots of discussions here http://arstandards.org/pipermail/discussion/2011-March/date.html
10:26:42 [matt]
cperey: It would let multiple organizations get together.
10:26:57 [matt]
cperey: The other option is to have liaisions.
10:27:34 [matt]
cperey: To short-circuit things, we would be to create liaisons with the other groups that skirt at the ages of where we are.
10:27:54 [matt]
cperey: The proposal is to have a multi-SDO meeting. Maybe people are not part of each organization.
10:28:42 [matt]
cperey: The purpose would be to create a figure that defines what different organizations, be they grass roots, or more established organizations, that describes who is going to take care of what.
10:28:58 [matt]
cperey: So the scope is understood between one another.
10:29:23 [matt]
cperey: Figure out our constituents, and then let the other parts that have expertise be covered by other organizations.
10:29:56 [matt]
cperey: So if this working group could attend one day, or half a day, and have it's WG meeting around it, that would be one proposal.
10:30:05 [matt]
q-
10:30:14 [matt]
cperey: Each SDO present what they are working on.
10:30:21 [matt]
cperey: It would really accelerate the work on the AR landscape.
10:30:29 [matt]
cperey: It would in one place bring in where all these organizations are.
10:31:16 [matt]
cperey: I've written a chapter for a book on the subject of where we stand now as far as the standards organizations are concerned. Co-authored with Carl Reed (OGC) and Timo ?? (Fraunhoffer).
10:31:25 [matt]
cperey: and a contribution from the Khronos group.
10:32:25 [matt]
cperey: We created a diagram of which groups have which expertise. I'm happy to share it.
10:33:32 [matt]
alex: So there's a proposal on the table related to what you first mentioned. This invitation by OGC to go to Taiwan in June. Does this group want to have it's F2F there and participate in a multi-SDO meeting.
10:34:07 [matt]
cperey: Those that join OGC covers the participation in the TP, etc.
10:34:35 [matt]
carsten: From OGC there are two types of WGs, there's WGs which are difficult to liaise with, and then there are more general domain WGs.
10:34:40 [matt]
cperey: Examples? Mass Market?
10:34:53 [matt]
cartsten: And 3D Information Management
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10:35:04 [matt]
danbri: And GeoSPARQL?
10:35:20 [matt]
carsten: That one is a standards WG, but there's also geo semantics, which is a domain WG.
10:36:10 [matt]
carsten: 3DIM covers an awful lot of stuff that may be relevant in an AR world ranging from geology to navigation of robots within buildings.
10:36:45 [JonathanJ]
one of OGC's activity in W3C was SSN IG - http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/ssn/
10:37:07 [matt]
carsten: I'm not sure there will be much 3D stuff in Taiwan, so I think the Boulder meeting might be more relevant.
10:37:30 [matt]
matt: The Boulder one also has the OSM meeting around it.
10:37:44 [matt]
carsten: There may also be a 3D summit in Boulder.
10:37:56 [matt]
-> http://www.w3.org/2010/POI/wiki/Face_to_Face_Meetings/2011_Future_Face_to_Face_Meetings#2011_F2F_Options
10:40:51 [danbri]
looking for public OGC discussions -> http://www.ogcnetwork.net/forum/ ... is that a useful place to hang around?
10:41:32 [danbri]
searching 'geosparql' i find 3 links: http://www.ogcnetwork.net/search/node/geosparql
10:42:12 [danbri]
googled -> http://www.opengeospatial.org/projects/groups/geosparqlswg/
10:44:18 [matt]
[[insert matt's comments here]]
10:44:45 [matt]
alex: I think you're saying the liaisons are sufficent, but getting everyone meeting is not necessarily the solution to the problems.
10:44:53 [danbri]
q+ to say we can never do enough, but there are some pre-requisits for making it easier: public discussions, issue lists, drafts with URLs
10:45:51 [matt]
matt: I think we can get the actual work done best through liaisons. We can use the official W3C workshop mechanism to do the rest, or we can have another group do it, or a new third party.
10:46:06 [matt]
cperey: I think the struggle we're having on the list is a reflection of a larger question.
10:46:42 [matt]
cperey: I don't believe it would be healthy to have a multi-SDO meeting that is a mock-up of having five standards development organizations there, and only have 2 show up.
10:47:13 [matt]
cperey: If the WGs within the SDOs, the work item groups, the OMA effort, etc, decide to come and OGC is there and W3C and Khronos is there, if you can get 4 of 5 or 5 of 6, that tips the scales to looks promising.
10:47:39 [matt]
cperey: Then if those organizations have their liaisons in place and can make their activities more known to one another, then that would be beneficial to all of the work.
10:48:11 [matt]
cperey: There's a lot to be hashed out, it's not a done deal that this meeting will happen. It's voluntary.
10:48:37 [danbri]
no sweat
10:49:36 [matt]
alex: I hear that if we don't liaise with these other groups, then we fail in a sense. I think that's a real problem, I don't know if what you're proposing is the solution, or if there are other ways we can liaise and succeed.
10:50:16 [matt]
danbri: One of the biggest obstacles is that some of these organizations work in private. I think the tendency is to work fully in public at w3c now. It was hard. Every time you move stuff public, you remove the incentive to join. OGC, Khronos, ISO all have these problems.
10:50:33 [JonathanJ]
+1
10:50:36 [matt]
danbri: Someone has to pay for making standards. What we have with AR and POI is a very broad, loose, hard to get your head around topics.
10:50:57 [matt]
danbri: 3d modeling, QR codes, etc everything is in there. Because it's so broad, I think having a single meeting with all of the stake holders can be useful.
10:51:09 [matt]
danbri: We need to have as broad a group as possible to send links and share.
10:51:28 [matt]
danbri: Public discussions, things that have links... if we don't have that we have press releases from CEOs talking about working with other groups and nothing inside.
10:51:40 [matt]
danbri: I think we should be moving more and more public in this WG.
10:52:02 [matt]
alex: Do you think much happens in AR, e.g. the Layars of the world, are talking in public or in private about standards.
10:52:21 [matt]
danbri: They're busy getting started. As a market leader, it's difficult to rationalize standards.
10:52:34 [matt]
danbri: Some standards yes, some no.
10:52:51 [JonathanJ]
Another biggest obstacles is IPR problem.
10:53:09 [matt]
Ronald: I think the AR browsers have realized there will be a standard, and we can't wait for it, so we're doing our own stuff, so we want to be the first to make a browser for that standard too!
10:53:16 [JonathanJ]
s/obstacles/obstacle/
10:53:26 [matt]
cperey: Layar and Mobilizy contribute an enormous amount to this subject.
10:54:17 [matt]
alex: I think I narrowed it down too much, but there's also the Nokia/NAVTEQ's that have interest in seeing these standards go forward, but I doubt they are talking to each other a lot about those standards.
10:54:38 [matt]
cperey: MetaIO came to the meeting in Barcelona and was an eye opener for them.
10:54:39 [danbri]
(absolutely no disrespect to layar intended; i just mean that it's expensive to put time into standards, but for market leader the incentives are always ambiguous for std'izing a rapidly evolving platform)
10:55:51 [matt]
alex: Yes, it's obvious that the Wikitudes and the Layars of the world see this as a good place to touch. The question is what organization do we create that is appealing to them.
10:56:25 [danbri]
much for nametags :)
10:56:32 [matt]
alex: There will be some organizations who don't see it as their full time job to be in standards organizations.
10:56:54 [matt]
alex: It sounds like it's similar to OGC and W3C as it has membership, IP, companies have things to say in it.
10:56:56 [matt]
cperey: And OMA.
10:57:34 [matt]
cperey: They don't want to have membership in five organizations. They want to have confidence that the organizations will define the interestions.
10:58:11 [matt]
alex: Do we want this to be a permanent organization?
10:58:12 [JonathanJ]
I worry about that Giant company(Google, Apple, MS) can be a killer of AR standardization in future.
10:58:17 [matt]
cperey: Which we?
10:58:23 [matt]
alex: All of us at the same time.
10:58:56 [matt]
alex: If they don't want to be in each organization than they can have their own group, or they can join OMA, or...
10:59:24 [danbri]
I can't get excited about another group to liaise thru/with/via, as a solution to the 'there are too many groups to liaise with' problem :|
10:59:34 [matt]
cperey: It can be counter productive to be too formal.
11:00:18 [matt]
alex: On one hand, we're not a bunch of hackers throwing together all of our AR fantasies. We're trying to be a little bit more "pointed". We can't have both at the same time.
11:03:56 [Luca_]
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12:28:46 [matt]
Scribe: Ronald
12:30:39 [Luca_]
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12:32:30 [matt]
rrsagent, make minutes
12:32:30 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/03/29-poiwg-minutes.html matt
12:33:33 [matt]
RESOLUTION: WG will meet f2f three times per year
12:34:11 [matt]
-> http://www.w3.org/2010/POI/wiki/Face_to_Face_Meetings/2011_Future_Face_to_Face_Meetings Future F2F meetings
12:34:13 [cperey]
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12:35:08 [Ronald]
Matt: recap meeting options
12:35:26 [ahill2]
rrsagent, draft minutes
12:35:26 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/03/29-poiwg-minutes.html ahill2
12:36:20 [Ronald]
Matt: as we want to meet 3 times this year, we have a good starting point for selecting meeting locations
12:36:37 [Ronald]
Matt: can be decided later on during our calls
12:37:41 [Ronald]
Matt: do we want to continue with the liason discussions, or move on to another agenda item?
12:38:00 [matt]
Topic: Liaisons
12:38:23 [matt]
-> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/member-poiwg/2011Mar/att-0033/OMA-LS_905-OMA_REQ_WG_Information_on_W3C_POI_WG_activity-20110302-A.pdf OMA Liaison statement
12:38:41 [Ronald]
Matt: lets start with the OMA Liaison for discussion
12:39:51 [Ronald]
matt: OMA has 3 specified deliverables, data format, transport client features and security features
12:40:02 [Ronald]
matt: Clear overlap with data format
12:40:18 [JonathanJ]
Here is initial draft of OMA MobileAR Enabler specification - http://db.tt/JmtFaNO
12:40:41 [Ronald]
Luca: not personally involved in OMA, but Carmen, which is in the same group at Telecom Italia is in the OMA group
12:41:29 [Ronald]
Jonathan: I am in the OMA MobileAR meeting in two weeks
12:41:54 [Ronald]
Jonathan: not involved in the previous group calls
12:42:18 [Ronald]
Jonathan: Samsung joined OMA, but not in the MobileAR Enabler
12:42:56 [matt]
Luca: Supporting companies: EnSoft, LG Electronics, AT&T, Danal Entertainment, Telecom Italia, Samsung
12:43:01 [matt]
Luca: they have different membership types.
12:43:18 [Ronald]
cperey: qualcomm is active as well
12:44:08 [Ronald]
matt: we have people who are members in both organization, we have an agreement with OMA and OGC for data sharing
12:44:31 [JonathanJ]
I have asked Criminisi (Current Champion of MobileAR), Telecom Italia, but she said not yet decide for MobileAR meeting in Sorrent.
12:45:56 [Ronald]
ahill: is there any reason against it?
12:46:17 [Ronald]
matt: as our work is public, there is no real need for it
12:46:32 [Ronald]
cperey: seems like a no brainer to do a liaison
12:47:10 [Ronald]
cperey: having people in both groups is not a real way of knowing what is going on, but having an official liaison is better
12:48:27 [Ronald]
matt: we should talk and be in cooperation and point out where the overlap is with us and other
12:48:45 [Ronald]
cperey: do we have POI covered? We are having problems getting involvement
12:49:04 [Ronald]
ahill: it might make other members from OMA to participate in our group
12:49:34 [Ronald]
ahill: agreeing to liase with OMA does not influence our charter
12:50:09 [Ronald]
matt: OMA wants to write a standard for POI. we should talk to them and work together instead of duplicating efforts
12:50:44 [Ronald]
cperey: creating a contact surface of POI for immediate discussion with them. Ask them how they want to define POI
12:51:25 [Ronald]
matt: having them at the table is ok.. drafting the response has to be looked at by a lawyer from the W3C perspective
12:52:31 [Ronald]
luca: POI is more general than AR
12:52:57 [Ronald]
luca: we have to look at how it will affect our groups work
12:52:58 [JonathanJ]
As you can see in Mobile AR spec - http://db.tt/JmtFaNO , I think they are just focused on Mobile AR architecture.
12:53:21 [Ronald]
luca: the OMA work package seems to be describing an application and not really a specification
12:53:43 [Ronald]
luca: we don't have a special interest in AR, but have it as a use case
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12:54:27 [Ronald]
luca: they will need us as a common way of information and we can take their specific use case as input for our POI definition (e.g. special data field requirements)
12:55:12 [Ronald]
matt: our generic POI is supposed to be extensible, so if OMA want a standardized client for AR they might want to add specifics to the data model
12:55:27 [ahill2]
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12:55:31 [Ronald]
cperey: the scope of OMA seems quite large, it covers the entire stack
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12:55:52 [Ronald]
cperey: we have taken only a small portion of the problem and it is already messy.
12:56:27 [Ronald]
cperey: the companies involved are not the ones who are currently working on it in the real world
12:58:20 [Ronald]
ahill: maybe its the nature of OMA that they want to standardize bigger things and this is just a blanket
12:58:59 [Ronald]
matt: the m stands for mobile, so they limit their full stack to just mobile ar
12:59:08 [Ronald]
matt: they are in a strange place compared to us
12:59:31 [Ronald]
ahill: they are not just doing it in private, but they are seeking liaisons. so maybe they realize they do not have all the answers
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13:00:04 [matt]
ACTION: andy to start drafting a response to OMA liaison statement to agree with the idea of the liaison and to suggest that they participate in our POI and AR discussion and try to converge their technical specifications with ours
13:00:04 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-37 - Start drafting a response to OMA liaison statement to agree with the idea of the liaison and to suggest that they participate in our POI and AR discussion and try to converge their technical specifications with ours [on Andrew Braun - due 2011-04-05].
13:00:45 [danbri]
JonathanJ, thanks for that link, I hadn't seen it. There's a basic taxonomy of actors in OMA-ER-MobAR-V1_0-20110311-D_20110323 but it seems very simple (user, content provider, service provider)...
13:00:52 [Ronald]
matt: when looking at Khronos, we don't want to specify 3D specs, and we don't want them to deal with POIs
13:01:35 [Ronald]
ahill: not sure what Khronos would contribute to POIs, but it would be nice to know they are involved
13:01:44 [Ronald]
ahill: it will help our legitimacy
13:03:01 [matt]
rrsagent, draft minutes
13:03:01 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/03/29-poiwg-minutes.html matt
13:03:05 [Ronald]
ahill: maybe we should shift to a more tangible look at what the core draft is to summarize
13:03:26 [matt]
Topic: Reviewing the Core draft
13:03:37 [danbri]
http://www.w3.org/2010/POI/wiki/Core/Draft
13:04:05 [Ronald]
ahill: the core draft we have is the result of our F2F in december
13:04:38 [Ronald]
ahill: discussions were about whether POIs were purely geo based or describing things
13:05:13 [cperey]
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13:05:22 [Ronald]
ahill: a core POI is described by a location, name, some relationships, identifier, category, some temporal information, and any metadata, any extensibility
13:05:49 [fons]
rrsagent,draft minutes
13:05:49 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/03/29-poiwg-minutes.html fons
13:05:49 [danbri]
rrsagent, draft minutes
13:05:49 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/03/29-poiwg-minutes.html danbri
13:06:23 [Ronald]
ahill: the first one is location
13:06:36 [Ronald]
ahill: we wanted to have something flexible, not just individual points
13:06:46 [cperey]
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13:07:04 [Ronald]
ahill: it can have one or more location primitives, for example 100ft from the corner of another known place
13:07:16 [Ronald]
ahill: or some strict WGS84 location
13:07:46 [Ronald]
ahill: or a description for an image capturing device, so you don't know the real location, but do know it when you see it
13:08:07 [Ronald]
ahill: if some service exists that can resolve the exact location that is helpful
13:08:36 [Ronald]
ahill: we do want to look at 3D objects for extends
13:08:44 [Ronald]
ahill: we did not go into detail
13:09:29 [Ronald]
ahill: the relationship primitive is for defining relations for example adjacency, franchise of a chain,
13:09:43 [matt]
Carsten: Silicon Valley is a "vernacular name"
13:10:23 [Ronald]
ahill: for navigation adjacency is important to have
13:10:43 [Ronald]
cperey: if you have 5 stores in a mall, how do you specify that the specific POI is in the mall
13:11:45 [Ronald]
ahill: here we got a bit confused. we have extensibility, relationships, etc... and we did not know what should fit in which primitive
13:11:53 [danbri]
q+ to ask if events/schedules fit with relationships
13:12:38 [Ronald]
ahill: the category has to be added to POI from the big POI databases perspective
13:13:06 [Ronald]
cperey: the categorization pushes us into the direction of linked data
13:13:41 [Ronald]
carsten: it is an area where the data vendor pushes their picture of the world
13:14:22 [matt]
ack next
13:14:46 [Ronald]
danbri: we know we as a group cannot specify all categories, but leaving a giant hole in the spec is not good
13:15:15 [Ronald]
danbri: so we could specify our standard to let others insert categories
13:15:51 [danbri]
(there might also be different kinds of categories; eg. cultural heritage categories for historical landmarks, versus types of company, ...)
13:15:57 [Ronald]
carsten: in citygml we try to model the real world, so we have materials for building, roofs, which can be country specific.
13:16:21 [Ronald]
carsten: initially, we wanted to give an example in the specification and let people use their own
13:16:37 [danbri]
(another example, friend here in AMS collecting info about road blockages for fire dept usage ... categories range from 'big hole in street' to 'lighbulb needs changing')
13:16:52 [Ronald]
carsten: but if you publish the data, it is not that useful. so we looked into having a registry for "approved" lists
13:17:11 [Ronald]
carsten: trying to convince OGC staff to look at a resource to utilize, but still at the beginning
13:17:30 [danbri]
(q for Carsten, I heard a rumour OGC was moving towards using SKOS for 'code list' categories?)
13:17:35 [Ronald]
ahill: I am still new to the RDF world, but there are some standards. You would not create the registry ad hoc
13:18:08 [Ronald]
carsten: there is a bit of structure. we are currently in the process to put an URI on top of it to find it
13:18:21 [danbri]
http://www.google.com/search?sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8&q=skos+ogc
13:18:24 [Ronald]
ahill: isn't there something in the RDF world, like a schema?
13:19:19 [Ronald]
danbri: skos is more of less a thesaurus with different levels of categories
13:20:56 [Ronald]
ahill: my point was that when people go to registries, it should not be ad hoc. we have some guidance
13:21:25 [Ronald]
matt: with RDF you can look at the namespaces and dereference
13:21:32 [JonathanJ]
SKOS - http://www.w3.org/TR/#tr_SKOS
13:22:57 [Ronald]
jacques: perhaps we should focus on XML first as it is simple and look at RDF later
13:23:18 [Ronald]
jacques: RDF can be powerful, but we can stay with something simple and extensible
13:23:46 [Ronald]
ahill: if I see something from "good relations" but how do I know what the document contains
13:24:12 [Ronald]
danbri: you can look at the spec. It is not always writing the code for you
13:24:23 [Ronald]
danbri: it is semi-structured chaos\
13:24:52 [Ronald]
ahill: it is up to me if I see foaf to know what to do with it
13:25:26 [danbri]
oh this seems useful: https://portal.opengeospatial.org/files/?artifact_id=29334
13:25:46 [ahill2]
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13:25:55 [matt]
-> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-poiwg/2011Jan/0010.html Jacques' message
13:25:55 [Ronald]
matt: in januari, jaques sent a sample of RDF that uses foaf an poap
13:28:10 [Ronald]
ahill: there will be a lot of data in a POI, but how do we define what data we want to get
13:28:22 [Ronald]
ahill: I am assuming linked data has a solution for this
13:28:25 [Luca]
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13:28:36 [Ronald]
danbri: there is a linked data query language SparQL
13:29:06 [Ronald]
ahill: I was expecting something easier
13:29:20 [matt]
-> http://www.w3.org/2011/02/GeoSPARQL.pdf GeoSPARQL editor's draft from OGC
13:29:27 [Ronald]
ahill: I don't necessarily need all the information about ticket prices if I walk by a movie theater
13:29:51 [Ronald]
ahill: is there a way to hit a URL to get specific data
13:30:14 [matt]
-> http://linkedgeodata.org/files/paper.pdf Paper from Geodata
13:30:15 [Ronald]
matt: jacques provided a link today
13:30:40 [danbri]
i'll try converting that POAP example to fit into Facebook OG format, as a quite demo
13:30:45 [danbri]
s/quite/quick/
13:31:55 [matt]
Ronald: The POI information is at first limited, but you can view in a web view more information
13:32:13 [matt]
Ronald: Kept the APIs simple and deliberately chose to have a single API call.
13:33:19 [Ronald]
ahill: it is a big problem for anyone building mobile AR
13:33:40 [Ronald]
ahill: might be our of scope for this group
13:33:48 [Ronald]
matt: It is in scope to make something useable
13:34:27 [Ronald]
jacques: we have an app build on RDF, which is powerful, but we don't use a lot of it
13:34:52 [Ronald]
jacques: not sure if companies like Layar, Wikitude, Metaio would leverage the power of RDF
13:35:16 [Ronald]
matt: we decided last F2F to not look at the technical format, but primarily at the data model
13:35:33 [Ronald]
matt: and have multiple options for data representations
13:36:09 [Ronald]
danbri: if we have an entity-relationship model we are pretty close to RDF anyway\
13:37:10 [Ronald]
jacques: when looking at openstreetmap, it is very popular because the XML format is very simple
13:37:36 [Ronald]
jacques: we now see many people converting the data to RDF format
13:37:58 [Ronald]
jacques: in this group it might be bettor to have a simple XML format. Others can map it to RDF
13:38:09 [matt]
-> http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Data_Primitives OSM format?
13:38:23 [Ronald]
danbri: the data will appear in multiple places JSON for web, XML, etc
13:38:31 [Ronald]
danbri: whatever we do we will upset people\
13:39:56 [Ronald]
jacques: authoring json is more difficult than xml
13:40:23 [Ronald]
jacques: openstreetmap has 2 billion POIs in XML, with semantic data in each POI
13:40:42 [Ronald]
jacques: which is why I prefer XML, it is like HTML
13:42:50 [JonathanJ]
Comparison of JSON and XML Data Interchange Formats: A Case Study - http://www.cs.montana.edu/izurieta/pubs/caine2009.pdf
13:43:56 [JonathanJ]
another comparison - http://www.scriptol.com/ajax/json-xml.php
13:44:45 [matt]
Ronald: I'm not sure we should focus our efforts on the mapping, but rather on the datamodel.
13:46:16 [matt]
Ronald: We should choose one format for our internal discussion and focus on that, rather than focusing on all of the mappings at once. Let's look at the data model and pick one format, say, XML for doing examples, etc. We can keep an eye on the mapping, but not try to do the exercise of mapping it as we go.
13:46:54 [matt]
Ronald: We do everything in JSON at Layar, but I can understand why you wouldn't want to, for the fact that you'd invent namespaces on top of JSON, etc.
13:47:25 [matt]
Alex: I have this sneaky feeling that we're going to end up with linkages between location entity, or any other sort of data, be it a sound or a description or a 3d model. And that sounds a lot like Linked Data and RDF.
13:47:35 [matt]
Alex: As long as the XML that we are writing can go to RDF, that seems right.
13:47:45 [matt]
Ronald: I agree. I see a real future in this linked data stuff.
13:47:56 [matt]
Alex: I like the idea of describing it in XML to not overwhelm people.
13:48:40 [matt]
PROPOSED RESOLUTION: Group will work in XML, and not do the mappings to other formats simultaneously, but keep mappings in mind as we go.
13:48:50 [matt]
Alex: I'd like to talk to more people in Linked Data, and make sure we're not missing something.
13:49:04 [danbri]
proposal: The WG expect that broadly equivalent POI descriptions will be exchanged in the Web using at least XML, HTML5, JSON formats,
13:49:05 [danbri]
often embedded within some surrounding format or spec. For example, POI details might be described within HTML markup inside KML XML, inside
13:49:05 [danbri]
Atom, as part of OpenGraphProtocol RDFa in HTML, or in JSON and JSONP Web APIs. The value of the WG's spec's will in large part be related to
13:49:06 [danbri]
their ability to communicate POI data across such application boundaries, especially where extension information (eg. categories, relationships)
13:49:08 [danbri]
needs to be preserved.
13:50:35 [JonathanJ]
+1
13:50:50 [matt]
matt: +1
13:50:54 [Ronald]
+1
13:51:08 [danbri]
(nobody objected :)
13:51:38 [jacques]
jacques has joined #poiwg
13:51:59 [ahill2]
ahill2 has joined #poiwg
13:52:17 [ahill2]
asdf
13:52:19 [matt]
PROPOSED RESOLUTION: The WG expect that broadly equivalent POI descriptions will be exchanged in the Web using at least XML, HTML5, JSON formats, often embedded within some surrounding format or spec.
13:53:17 [danbri]
.... in fact http://www.w3.org/2010/POI/wiki/Core/Draft already goes a nice long way towards identifying those commonalities
13:54:12 [ahill2]
asdf
13:54:43 [JonathanJ]
s/asdf/ping/
13:54:57 [Ronald]
RESOLUTION: We should have just one normative mapping to use in the document
13:55:00 [danbri]
matt wants at least one concrete doc format that can be canonical (at least within group's own discussions)
13:55:11 [ahill2]
1,$s/asdf/ping/g
13:55:42 [matt]
s/asdf/ping/g
13:55:46 [matt]
rrsagent, draft minutes
13:55:46 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/03/29-poiwg-minutes.html matt
13:56:04 [matt]
RESOLUTION: The WG expect that broadly equivalent POI descriptions will be exchanged in the Web using at least XML, HTML5, JSON formats, often embedded within some surrounding format or spec.
13:56:33 [danbri]
(I don't mind which format so long as we've got a pluralist deployment story)
13:57:02 [matt]
RESOLUTION: The normative mapping included will be XML.
13:57:16 [matt]
rrsagent, draft minutes
13:57:16 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/03/29-poiwg-minutes.html matt
13:57:19 [Luca]
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13:57:53 [Ronald]
danbri: in the end back end developers will use their own representation based on the abstract model
13:58:06 [Ronald]
danbri: they need to be able to read the spec
13:58:19 [Ronald]
danbri: don't assume people will have xml databases
13:59:37 [Ronald]
ahill: let's continue with the summary of the core draft
14:00:21 [danbri]
rrsagent, please draft minutes
14:00:21 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/03/29-poiwg-minutes.html danbri
14:00:35 [Ronald]
ahill: the time primitive, we still did not define fully
14:01:03 [Ronald]
ahill: question on whether it reflects the time when the washington monument was created or the time when the POI was created in the system
14:01:50 [Ronald]
ahill: a POI must have a location primitive. From geo, a POI only exists when it has a location. From AR, we might not know where the POI really is
14:02:08 [Ronald]
carsten: a location isn't necessarily a coordinate
14:02:32 [Ronald]
carsten: we deal a lot with postalcode information, point information for delivery
14:02:48 [Ronald]
carsten: when a new postalcode is created, we don't know the exact point yet
14:03:03 [Ronald]
carsten: attribute indicating the POI is unmatched
14:03:18 [Ronald]
carsten: it is in this mall is a valid location
14:03:44 [Ronald]
matt: we talked about having an "unknown" location, but we can probably have an incredibly inaccurate location
14:03:54 [Ronald]
ahill: there is a segway to relationships
14:04:07 [Ronald]
ahill: we have in the spec "undetermined" for location
14:04:28 [Ronald]
ahill: but there are relationships that can then determine the location, e.g. a relation to the mall POI
14:05:21 [Ronald]
ahill: there is always a location primitive
14:06:13 [danbri]
q?
14:06:21 [Ronald]
ahill: still need to clarify things a bit more
14:06:33 [danbri]
(where's zakim gone?)
14:06:35 [Ronald]
ahill: a lot of things are still to be decided
14:06:44 [Zakim]
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14:06:47 [danbri]
q?
14:07:10 [matt]
-> http://www.w3.org/2010/POI/wiki/Core/Draft#Relationship_primitive Relationship Primitive
14:07:47 [Ronald]
danbri: last year I defined a list of possible POIs. A lot of them were event based. Are there relationships between events and places
14:08:34 [matt]
-> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-poiwg/2010Aug/0031.html Danbri's list of potential POIs
14:09:51 [Ronald]
Ronald: is an event a POI or is it temporal data for the venue POI
14:10:05 [Ronald]
ahill: maybe this is time for an issue
14:10:40 [matt]
rrsagent, draft minutes
14:10:40 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/03/29-poiwg-minutes.html matt
14:10:52 [danbri]
Q: Do we deal with event descriptions (eg. movie screenings) by making them POIs, or by describing their relationship to POIs?
14:10:54 [ahill3]
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14:11:02 [danbri]
16:10 danbri: Q: Do we deal with event descriptions (eg. movie screenings) by making them POIs, or by describing their relationship to POIs?
14:11:54 [matt]
ISSUE-5?
14:11:54 [trackbot]
ISSUE-5 -- Do we deal with event descriptions (eg. movie screenings) by making them POIs, or by describing their relationship to POIs? -- raised
14:11:54 [trackbot]
http://www.w3.org/2010/POI/track/issues/5
14:11:55 [danbri]
(my dayjob is TV recommendations, so I have some interest in this use case :)
14:12:29 [ahill3]
aSD
14:12:31 [ahill3]
ASDF
14:14:10 [Ronald]
carsten: do you guys think a POI is an address?
14:14:19 [Ronald]
carsten: are we thinking in 3D or 4D?
14:15:12 [Ronald]
carsten: an address can be streetname and house number, or lower level numbers specifying a location
14:16:07 [ahill3]
asdfas
14:16:25 [ahill3]
what IRC server address in limechat?
14:18:14 [danbri]
so I copied jacques RDF example into github repo -> https://github.com/danbri/Pogo/tree/master/checker/testcases/poi .... made versions in 3 different RDF syntaxes: Turtle, N-Triples and RDF/XML
14:18:32 [Ronald]
carsten: if we are thinking 3D, an event is probably not a POI, if we are thinking 4D it might be
14:18:36 [JonathanJ]
In Korea, we are developing the ARI(Augmented Reality Indentifier) spec that it extend to IETF's URN specification.
14:19:00 [JonathanJ]
s/Indentifier/Identifier/
14:19:57 [Ronald]
carsten: people tend to not look at the temporal aspect and just create "static" POIs
14:20:07 [Ronald]
carsten: we have the chance to boost the time aspect
14:20:30 [Ronald]
ahill: if you don't add a time element to a POI it is seen as indefinite/static
14:21:49 [Ronald]
matt: the temporal stuff we definitely have to address while crafting the core draft
14:21:51 [danbri]
proposal re temporal aspects: POI spec should allow for temporal characteristics of the description/record (publication date, 'coverage' / when it's true dates); and also of the payload, including domain specific extensions such as shop opening hours, movie show times, or historical periods for sites of touristic interest.
14:22:19 [Ronald]
ahill: a POI can have contained within or contains, adjecent to relations
14:22:30 [Ronald]
ahill: they are defined between POIs
14:22:43 [Ronald]
ahill: must have a name primitive
14:22:51 [Ronald]
ahill: must have an id primitive
14:23:18 [Ronald]
ahill: lots of debate. Does a location have an id and are we reusing locations when two POIs share a location?
14:23:21 [danbri]
rrsagent, pointer?
14:23:21 [RRSAgent]
See http://www.w3.org/2011/03/29-poiwg-irc#T14-23-21
14:23:45 [Ronald]
ahill: same for categories. Does a category need an ID
14:24:04 [Ronald]
ahill: does a POI have a single ID, or do all the element it contains have IDs that can be referenced
14:24:14 [danbri]
proposal2: any entities of interest should be able to have IDs, and these should be allowed to be http:-based URIs
14:24:49 [Ronald]
ahill: must have a categorization primitive. Everything has to be categorized otherwise it has no value (from the Navteq perspective)
14:25:26 [Ronald]
ahill: open to debate, but it is in the current draft to trigger more discussions and not forget about it
14:25:51 [Ronald]
danbri: in RDF there is no must at all. It is a very passive environment and you have to deal with what you have
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14:26:31 [Ronald]
danbri: we can have best practice notes, but I feel unconfortable having it in the core spec as musts
14:27:53 [Ronald]
danbri: The POI spec needs to have a temporal aspect on the POI data as well as on the payload (opening hours)
14:28:58 [Ronald]
ahill: there are 3 levels: opening hours, when did the restaurant open, and when was the POI created
14:32:21 [Ronald]
danbri: if we have ids on everything, we can offload the temporal data to others
14:32:49 [danbri]
-coffee needed-
14:34:12 [matt]
-> http://ietherpad.com/VVKVaoHANE scratch pad for us to work on
14:34:46 [danbri]
test case fodder: http://www.pathe.nl/bioscoop/tuschinski http://cinematreasures.org/theater/2314/ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tuschinski http://dbpedia.org/page/Tuschinski http://www.cinemacontext.nl/id/B000030
14:34:53 [danbri]
and a movie showing http://www.pathe.nl/film/7717/the-kings-speech
14:35:01 [danbri]
times: http://www.pathe.nl/film/7717/the-kings-speech/agenda
14:36:31 [danbri]
...
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15:01:04 [jacques]
jacques has joined #poiwg
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15:04:54 [matt]
Scribe: Matt
15:06:38 [matt]
Alex: Michael recommended URIs for us to use as IDs. How do we use those?
15:07:03 [matt]
danbri: If you are pointing to things anywhere on the Web, the URI spec is the way. If you are looking at things within the document, you might just have a local ID, and then a convention for --
15:07:09 [matt]
alex: I hit this URI and get back XML?
15:07:12 [matt]
danbri: Well, broken HTML.
15:07:26 [matt]
alex: I mean, how does this jive with XML?
15:07:44 [matt]
alex: I can imagine that I click on this link and it returns XML for the King's Speech, but is that how an ID works?
15:07:50 [matt]
alex: I'm thinking more like an XML ID attribute.
15:08:14 [matt]
danbri: Within an XML document, depending on the format type, there are different conventions for how you find these references. XHTML, SVG, etc will all have their own.
15:09:12 [matt]
alex: What is the role of IDs?
15:09:35 [matt]
alex: A very simple standpoint, for example in KML. You can identify things within the scope of your document.
15:09:46 [matt]
alex: We had a proposal that URIs are the IDs.
15:10:05 [matt]
alex: Are they IDs that were created by the author for internal use, or URIs?
15:10:48 [matt]
jacques: In OSM, it's unique for each node.
15:11:20 [matt]
Carsten: We've had that for the last ten years, we issue our own numbers and everyone using our data knew about them and it was accepted. We're not going to change this particular product any time soon. Geo data has national bodies in the UK.
15:11:52 [matt]
Carsten: You want to use the data and mash it up with those other sets out there, so URIs are obvious.
15:12:07 [JonathanJ]
Can we maintain centralized and universal unique ID ?
15:12:09 [matt]
danbri: There are two parts: within an XML document, how do you identify things within itself and how do you point out?
15:12:41 [matt]
danbri: I can write "id='foo'" and someone can, on the Web compose a URI from where the URI where the document lives, plus say a hash mark and the ID.
15:12:54 [matt]
danbri: There's been a tendency to do it different in each spec, but XML ID spec gives guidance.
15:14:05 [JonathanJ]
rrsagent, draft minutes
15:14:05 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/03/29-poiwg-minutes.html JonathanJ
15:16:00 [JonathanJ]
XML ID spec http://www.w3.org/TR/xml-id/ , XML Base spec: http://www.w3.org/TR/xmlbase/
15:16:10 [matt]
matt: We would take the URI used to fetch the XML doc itself and combine it with the ID specified to give a unique ID to part of a given POI.
15:18:23 [matt]
alex: I'm a bit concerned that we think URIs are good, but the details we don't get.
15:18:26 [matt]
danbri: It's a bit fiddly.
15:19:24 [matt]
danbri: The linked data people tend to get excited about using HTTP URIs to name things. Tim put a note out saying use http identifiers to identify real things. People are excited about it, but I think we can be agnostic about it.
15:19:50 [matt]
danbri: Tim said "we can use the hash to make it not be web pages", but in the linked data context they can be used to reference people, tables, etc.
15:19:51 [JonathanJ]
I think we are also need URI like ID scheme
15:20:20 [matt]
Alex: if I have a hash in a URI, who sees it?
15:20:26 [matt]
matt: It depends on the client. A web browser won't send it.
15:20:42 [matt]
danbri: Or you get back a bunch and then look through it to find it.
15:21:05 [matt]
alex: But they could take the hash part out and search for the id itself.
15:21:18 [matt]
danbri: People take care to make sure that before the hash is enough to be able to pick out the single entity.
15:21:58 [matt]
danbri: There was a ruling about this in the TAG. They said it's okay to name a real world thing in a URI, but as long as it sends 303 redirect.
15:22:39 [danbri]
1. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tuschinski
15:23:00 [matt]
-> http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/issues/14 HTTP-Range 14 TAG issue
15:23:07 [danbri]
2. http://dbpedia.org/page/Tuschinski
15:23:24 [danbri]
3. http://dbpedia.org/resource/Tuschinski
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15:24:43 [matt]
danbri: So, there's an HTML page that describes Tuschinski, then there is a DBpedia page that describes the page, and then a third one /resource/ that should give a 303
15:24:45 [matt]
[[$ curl -D- http://dbpedia.org/resource/Tuschinski
15:24:45 [matt]
HTTP/1.1 303 See Other]]
15:25:01 [danbri]
curl -I http://dbpedia.org/resource/Tuschinski
15:25:01 [danbri]
HTTP/1.1 303 See Other
15:25:10 [matt]
[[Location: http://dbpedia.org/page/Tuschinski]]
15:25:44 [matt]
danbri: So, this does several things, it maintains a distinction between the thing you are talking about and the description of it.
15:25:58 [Carsten]
documentation about distinction between resource and page at location.defra.gov.uk/wp.../Designing_URI_Sets_for_Location-Ver0.5.pdf
15:26:19 [matt]
danbri: There's a tendency to try to use URNs for real world objects, but you can't drop those into a Web browser and get something back.
15:26:59 [matt]
danbri: isbn://12312344 is a URN for example
15:27:25 [Carsten]
correction: http://location.defra.gov.uk/wp-content/uploads/2010/04/Designing_URI_Sets_for_Location-Ver0.5.pdf
15:27:30 [JonathanJ]
URI scheme - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/URI_scheme
15:27:30 [matt]
danbri: What we see on dbpedia is one of the two main paths you can take for identifying a real world object. Either "#blah" or have this HTTP redirect dance.
15:27:44 [matt]
danbri: In which case you have something that looks like a URI link but you only find out by fetching it.
15:28:23 [matt]
[[<MYPOIFORMAT id="tushinski">
15:28:23 [matt]
<name>bla blah</name>
15:28:23 [matt]
</MYPOIFORMAT>
15:28:23 [matt]
]]
15:28:55 [matt]
matt: This would be served out of http://example.com/tushinski
15:29:32 [jacques_]
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15:29:38 [danbri]
so the full URI could be http://example.com/tushinski#tushinski
15:29:39 [JonathanJ]
rrsagent, draft minutes
15:29:39 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/03/29-poiwg-minutes.html JonathanJ
15:32:25 [ahill2]
ahill2 has joined #poiwg
15:34:01 [matt]
danbri: There is a cinema in Amsterdam, it's name is Tushinski, built in 1921.
15:34:11 [danbri]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tuschinski
15:34:12 [matt]
danbri: It is described by Wikipedia in a document whose URI is:
15:34:25 [danbri]
http://www.pathe.nl/bioscoop/tuschinski
15:34:35 [matt]
-> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tuschinski Tuschinski Wikipedia Document
15:34:42 [matt]
danbri: There is also a web page published by the film corporation:
15:34:52 [matt]
-> http://www.pathe.nl/bioscoop/tuschinski Tushinksi web page
15:34:56 [matt]
danbri: You can watch movies there.
15:35:14 [matt]
Carsten: Is the home page about the movie, or the building?
15:35:24 [matt]
Ronald: The home page is about the company in the building.
15:35:36 [matt]
danbri: Going to the homepage, I get an embedded map showing where the theater is and others from the same company.
15:35:45 [matt]
Carsten: Do we see the POI?
15:36:15 [matt]
danbri: This is a nice example of pointless information barriers. Getting this into a navigation system is... fiddly.
15:36:39 [matt]
matt: And how would we make it not fiddly?
15:36:58 [matt]
danbri: Markup in the page using the POI standard could make a machine readable description of where it is, etc.
15:37:07 [matt]
ahill2: I like that.
15:37:40 [danbri]
<meta name="google-site-verification" content="ewxq0ABm0oKTxJXMgwFYF3zVYTAH7iFbJZeQvpqY-Qw" />
15:37:40 [danbri]
<meta name="keywords" content="Pathe, bioscoop, film, amsterdam, rotterdam, den haag, eindhoven, helmond, groningen, utrecht, munt, arena, schouwburgplein, utrecht, rembrandt, metropole, filmagenda, bioscoop agenda, filmfocus, filmtheater, arthouse, uitgaan, belbios, nederland bioscoop agenda, nederland bioscoop, recensies, films, prijsvraag" />
15:37:57 [matt]
matt: RDF also has a form called RDFa, where "a" is attributes. You could have a similar thing in POI.
15:38:14 [matt]
alex: How would would we do this?
15:38:25 [matt]
danbri: We could put it in there, or put a link in via meta links.
15:38:31 [danbri]
<meta name="description" content="Alles over Pathé Tuschinski in Amsterdam. Actuele bioscoopagenda, trailers en koop je tickets direct online.
15:38:31 [danbri]
" />
15:38:40 [matt]
alex: It could be something DBpedia returns with a 303?
15:38:52 [matt]
alex: A meta tag with a URI or a bunch of URIs.
15:39:12 [matt]
danbri: Or all the information we need could go in the page, or have links to nerdy computer documents.
15:39:49 [matt]
jacques_: But it would be using POI as a microformat?
15:39:54 [matt]
danbri: It could be.
15:40:07 [matt]
matt: I was just throwing that out there as something we could do, but not that we must.
15:40:14 [danbri]
http://graph.danbri.org/Pogo/checker/?url=http://graph.danbri.org/Pogo/checker/testcases/ogp/geo1.cache
15:40:20 [matt]
ahill2: I just want concrete examples, don't care if it is right or wrong.
15:40:23 [danbri]
http://graph.danbri.org/Pogo/checker/testcases/ogp/geo1.cache
15:41:20 [danbri]
https://github.com/danbri/Pogo/blob/master/checker/testcases/ogp/geo1.cache
15:41:33 [danbri]
... latter has mimetype text/html so you can see it in browser
15:45:31 [matt]
danbri: OGP is based on RDFa, it can be mapped to RDF and be used in all of the RDF tools.
15:46:06 [matt]
danbri: Basically using meta they defined their own property types "og:title" "og:type" "og:url" and "og:image", and then you want to 'leverage' the social graph, Facebook traffic, etc, you put that at the top of your doc, then you put a bit of javascript and iframes.
15:46:30 [matt]
danbri: Whenever someone presses like, the facebook folks scrape this info from the page.
15:46:40 [matt]
danbri: There are some basic geo things in there, like lat/long and street address, etc.
15:47:25 [matt]
danbri: So now looking here: http://graph.danbri.org/Pogo/checker/?url=http://graph.danbri.org/Pogo/checker/testcases/ogp/geo1.cache
15:47:31 [matt]
danbri: You can see we've extracted things from there.
15:47:47 [matt]
danbri: The good news this stuff is already happening, and it's got a major social network pushing it.
15:49:52 [JonathanJ]
rrsagent, draft minutes
15:49:52 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/03/29-poiwg-minutes.html JonathanJ
15:50:33 [matt]
ahill2: We have a URI for each of those entities?
15:50:39 [matt]
danbri: Well here we have some nitpicky things.
15:50:56 [matt]
danbri: The particular syntax that Facebook chose wasn't about the restaurant itself but about the URI for the restaurant.
15:51:40 [matt]
danbri: Say there are two pages about the King's Speech, it could be on RottenTomatoes or IMDB. And with OGP, you only have it in one place.
15:51:54 [matt]
danbri: They wanted it simple, something that you can cut and paste in. They chose not to go the precise expressive route.
15:52:59 [matt]
danbri: In RDF you figure out what it's talking about by starting at the top of the document, you might have <head about="urn:ietfrestregistry43:"> and then the RDF parser knows to change the subject of each statement it finds.
15:53:06 [Luca]
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15:54:56 [matt]
jacques_: We could consider RDFa representation of an XML format.
15:55:18 [matt]
jacques_: We could use our own XML format and show it in RDFa.
15:55:43 [matt]
ahill2: I can't just take XML and stuff it into this webpage. It's going to be interpreted as a markup tag by the browser.
15:56:09 [matt]
danbri: Yes, putting XML inside this would not make XML or HTML people happy.
15:56:20 [matt]
danbri: We'd be better linking XML from it rather than putting it in line.
15:56:36 [matt]
danbri: Facebook is interested in putting some json, or more within the body of the page.
15:56:45 [matt]
danbri: Similar to microformats.
15:57:09 [matt]
danbri: "Welcome to Fidel's fictional restaurant, we're located at <newmarkupforaddress>1234 Mockingbird lane</newmakrupaddress>"
15:57:21 [matt]
ahill2: Is there any sort of established spec for doing what you just described there?
15:57:33 [matt]
danbri: There are bits and pieces on the microformat wiki. But this probably has more traction.
15:57:58 [matt]
ahill2: Is this not wordy?
15:58:40 [matt]
danbri: It is meta, so instead of "<meta property='og:countryname'>" you could have "<og:countryname>", but that's not what they chose.
15:58:49 [JonathanJ]
Support for RDFa in HTML4 and HTML5 - http://dev.w3.org/html5/rdfa/
15:58:55 [danbri]
see http://ogp.spypixel.com/Pogo/checker/
15:59:33 [Carsten]
For Ronald: link to OGC navigation paper: http://portal.opengeospatial.org/files/?artifact_id=41727
15:59:57 [matt]
-> http://graph.danbri.org/Pogo/checker/?url=http://www.rottentomatoes.com/m/matrix/ Matrix movie info
16:01:21 [ahill2]
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16:01:54 [matt]
danbri: They've put facebook stuff in and google stuff in.
16:02:16 [matt]
danbri: the rdf.data-vocabulary.org is from google.
16:02:20 [matt]
ahill2: What's on the left?
16:02:28 [matt]
danbri: the internal identifiers.
16:02:59 [matt]
danbri: So the "_:arc*" ones are just assigned internally by the parser.
16:03:45 [JonathanJ]
see The Open Graph Protocol - http://ogp.me/
16:06:38 [danbri]
<div xmlns:v="http://rdf.data-vocabulary.org/#" typeof="v:Movie"> ...
16:07:52 [matt]
danbri: There's an ecosystem of laziness.
16:08:05 [matt]
matt: Presumably there's a checker that you can type your URI into and facebook or google will tell you what it sees.
16:08:24 [matt]
danbri: If we get a nice clean format you could put stuff in an XML file and then link to it, and then maybe have the conversation with the Facebook and Google guys.
16:09:34 [matt]
danbri: Or embedding it in KML, or what have you.
16:09:43 [matt]
ahill2: We don't really have RDFa about a movie yet.
16:09:46 [matt]
danbri: We don't.
16:09:58 [matt]
ahill2: The RDFa we're looking at isn't about the movie per se.
16:10:01 [matt]
matt: It's not about an instance of the movie.
16:10:31 [matt]
ahill2: In my mind we're adding a little bit of stuff to glue this together from a POI standpoint.
16:10:44 [matt]
ahill2: some glue that in addition to all this information you can find this as a POI.
16:10:59 [matt]
danbri: The Web folks are getting better about having machine readable information in the Web page.
16:11:28 [matt]
matt: Adjourn!
16:11:32 [matt]
rrsagent, draft minutes
16:11:32 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/03/29-poiwg-minutes.html matt
16:13:47 [matt]
cperey: Can we review tomorrow for new attendees?
16:14:13 [matt]
matt: Sure. I think we should also during this week establish a long-term way to capture our history. We have a blog that we can use. I'd like to put it on the chair, but maybe we can rotate through it.
16:14:21 [matt]
matt: Now we're really adjourned!
16:14:24 [matt]
rrsagent, draft minutes
16:14:24 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/03/29-poiwg-minutes.html matt
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