13:00:31 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #awwsw
13:00:32 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2011/03/29-awwsw-irc
13:00:40 <jar_> zakim, this will be awwsw
13:00:40 <Zakim> ok, jar_; I see TAG_(AWWSW)9:00AM scheduled to start now
13:00:51 <dbooth> zakim, code?
13:00:51 <Zakim> the conference code is 29979 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.26.46.79.03 tel:+44.203.318.0479), dbooth
13:01:02 <Zakim> TAG_(AWWSW)9:00AM has now started
13:01:09 <Zakim> +jar
13:01:17 <Zakim> +DBooth
13:02:01 <Zakim> +cygri
13:02:10 <mhausenblas> Zakim, cygri is me
13:02:10 <Zakim> +mhausenblas; got it
13:03:45 <dbooth> Meeting: AWWSW
13:03:55 <dbooth> Chair: Jonathan Rees
13:04:37 <dbooth> Topic: Draft document http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/awwsw/issue57/latest/
13:06:04 <dbooth> jar: Still trying to learn what to do on this doc before sending for wider review. 
13:06:31 <dbooth> jar: heart of the doc is sec 5.5. and 5.6
13:06:40 <dbooth> http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/awwsw/issue57/latest/#chimera
13:08:09 <dbooth> michael: In the glossary, the def of "deref".  Why URIs with fragIDs are not dereferenceable?  You remove the fragid and then deref.
13:09:17 <dbooth> jar: HTTP doesnt' let you put the fragid in the request, so in that sense the URI isn't dereferenceable.  Also, look at 3986 and see how they use the term.
13:10:30 <dbooth> dbooth: need to distinguish between direct and indirect dereferencing?  Indirect is FYN.
13:11:37 <jar_> The fragment's format and resolution is therefore
13:11:37 <jar_>    dependent on the media type [RFC2046] of a potentially retrieved
13:11:37 <jar_>    representation, even though such a retrieval is only performed if the
13:11:37 <jar_>    URI is dereferenced. 
13:12:35 <mhausenblas> [[
13:12:36 <mhausenblas> A URI is dereferenceable if it may be used with a standard access mechanism to retrieve information, or to perform some other action on an associated resource ([rfc-3986] section 1.2.2). URIs possessing fragment identifiers (#) are by definition not dereferenceable. http: URIs without fragment identifiers are dereferenceable if some HTTP method (or equivalent) is successful (2xx response). Some URIs belonging to some other URI schemes are also 
13:12:36 <mhausenblas> dereferenceable. 
13:12:37 <mhausenblas> ]]
13:14:58 <dbooth> jar: Could clarify def in glossary.
13:15:34 <dbooth> dbooth: Sounds good.  Suggest using the term "directly dereferenceable" throughout.
13:17:01 <dbooth> jar: Another possibility is to change "URI" to "fragmentless URI" where appropriate.
13:17:06 <jar_> 'slash URI' or 'fragmentless URI'
13:18:49 <dbooth> "fragid-less"
13:19:08 <dbooth> jar: "hashless"?
13:19:13 <mhausenblas> +1
13:19:16 <dbooth> dbooth, michael: good
13:20:16 <dbooth> jar: I can define "hashless URI" in the glossary.
13:21:53 <dbooth> dbooth: I have reservations about this trying to address protocols other than HTTP.
13:22:52 <dbooth> jar: larry masinter is on the TAG, and he'd want to see other schemes included.
13:24:16 <dbooth> michael: what did you mean by this in 2.2:
13:24:16 <dbooth> [[
13:24:17 <dbooth> [This use case keeps coming up (e.g. tdb:) but I don't think anyone is seriously interested in it. Need text to admit that it's important but not important enough to talk about.] 
13:24:18 <dbooth> ]]
13:24:55 <dbooth> jar: whether in the LD world, do you ever have a 303 redirect that does not contain the URI being defined.
13:25:18 <dbooth> dbooth: http://thing-described-by.org/ does cover this case.
13:26:45 <dbooth> dbooth: I think the topic maps people may do that.
13:28:15 <dbooth> jar: you get different answers whether you assume that the URI refers to the primary topic or not.
13:30:25 <dbooth> dbooth: I think this issue comes up more when the definition is expressed in natural language -- not when it is expressed in RDF.
13:36:31 <dbooth> dbooth: If the def is expressed in RDF I don't think there is a reliable way to distinguish between cases 2.1 and 2.2.
13:38:36 <dbooth> jar: the question is whether we need to cover case 2.2 -- whether anyone is using this technique.
13:39:53 <dbooth> Michael: Not sure how the structure of sec 3 relates to the use cases in sec 2.
13:40:18 <dbooth> jar: Section 3 is related to use case 2.1.  It doesn't seem to use the word "somehow" any more.
13:41:47 <dbooth> dbooth: would be helpful to make the questions explicit in the use case, e.g., "Where should Alice publish the def?"
13:42:51 <dbooth> dbooth: sec 3.1, what does "Put the definition in the document in which the URI occurs. " mean?
13:45:15 <dbooth> dbooth: give names to documents that are mentioned, to be clear about which one is meant.
13:48:43 <dbooth> dbooth: The doc seems to talk both about the mechanics of how a def is provided and obtained, and about the semantics of what a URI means, as 5.6 talks about IRs.
13:49:30 <dbooth> jar: 5.6 needs to talk about both, to make sense.
13:49:47 <dbooth> jar: looking at 5.5
14:01:28 <dbooth> dbooth: Statements like "Carol can straighten this out" suggest that there is a problem that *needs* to be straightened out.  But if Ch can both have foo:mass and have a dc:creator, then there is no problem to be straightened out.
14:01:51 <jar_> DB and I have been arguing about this for years and have never managed to communicate
14:02:07 <dbooth> And in an *application*, which is the point of doing this, a CH can perfectly fine have both.
14:09:39 <Zakim> -mhausenblas
14:09:40 <Zakim> -DBooth
14:09:42 <Zakim> -jar
14:09:43 <Zakim> TAG_(AWWSW)9:00AM has ended
14:09:45 <Zakim> Attendees were jar, DBooth, mhausenblas
14:10:36 <dbooth> rrsagent, make logs public
14:10:41 <dbooth> rrsagent, draft minutes
14:10:41 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/03/29-awwsw-minutes.html dbooth
14:22:41 <dbooth> wow, still 404 after 12 minutes: http://www.w3.org/2011/03/29-awwsw-minutes.html
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20:36:15 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2011/03/29-awwsw-irc
20:36:27 <dbooth> rrsagent, draft minutes
20:36:27 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/03/29-awwsw-minutes.html dbooth
20:37:22 <webr3> sorry I missed today - bad day
20:37:34 <dbooth> hi nathan
20:37:40 <webr3> 'ello :)
20:37:46 <dbooth> michael was able to join this time.
20:37:55 <dbooth> i was just trying to get the minutes to generate
20:38:04 <dbooth> for some reason it didn't work earlier
20:38:14 <dbooth> but it seems to have worked now.
20:39:30 <webr3> ack, haven't spoken to michael nearly all year, shame to have missed him!
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