IRC log of lld on 2011-03-24

Timestamps are in UTC.

13:50:25 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #lld
13:50:25 [RRSAgent]
logging to http://www.w3.org/2011/03/24-lld-irc
13:50:37 [antoine]
rrsagent, bookmark
13:50:37 [RRSAgent]
See http://www.w3.org/2011/03/24-lld-irc#T13-50-37
13:50:45 [antoine]
zakim, this will be lld
13:50:45 [Zakim]
ok, antoine; I see INC_LLDXG()10:00AM scheduled to start in 10 minutes
13:50:52 [antoine]
Meeting: LLD XG
13:50:58 [antoine]
Chair: Antoine
13:51:14 [antoine]
Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xg-lld/2011Mar/0072.html
13:51:37 [antoine]
Previous: 2011-03-17 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xg-lld/2011Mar/0069.html
13:53:14 [ksclarke]
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13:53:37 [antoine]
Regrets: Asaf, Daniel, Peter, Jodi, Ross, Alexander, Lars, Felix
13:53:45 [antoine]
rrsagent, please make record public
13:54:42 [antoine]
rrsagent, please draft minutes
13:54:42 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/03/24-lld-minutes.html antoine
13:55:16 [antoine]
Scribe: kevin
13:55:20 [antoine]
Scribenick: kefo
13:56:36 [Zakim]
INC_LLDXG()10:00AM has now started
13:56:43 [Zakim]
+??P2
13:56:50 [antoine]
zakim, ??P2 is me
13:56:50 [Zakim]
+antoine; got it
13:56:59 [kefo]
kefo has joined #lld
13:56:59 [Zakim]
+[LC]
13:57:02 [Zakim]
-antoine
13:57:04 [Zakim]
+antoine
13:57:05 [kefo]
zakim, LC is me
13:57:05 [Zakim]
+kefo; got it
13:57:42 [marcia]
marcia has joined #lld
13:58:42 [Zakim]
+marcia
13:58:51 [Zakim]
+jeff_
13:59:11 [jeff_]
zakim, mute me
13:59:11 [Zakim]
jeff_ should now be muted
13:59:41 [kefo]
zakim, mute me please
13:59:41 [Zakim]
kefo should now be muted
14:00:11 [Zakim]
+jeff_.a
14:00:14 [GordonD]
GordonD has joined #lld
14:00:16 [rsinger]
rsinger has joined #lld
14:00:36 [antoine]
zakim, jeff_.a is maichaelp
14:00:36 [Zakim]
+maichaelp; got it
14:00:39 [kai]
kai has joined #lld
14:00:50 [antoine]
zakim, maichelp is michaelp
14:00:55 [Zakim]
sorry, antoine, I do not recognize a party named 'maichelp'
14:00:55 [ww]
ww has joined #lld
14:01:08 [antoine]
zakim, maichelp is really michaelp
14:01:08 [Zakim]
sorry, antoine, I do not recognize a party named 'maichelp'
14:01:10 [Zakim]
+rsinger
14:01:14 [marcia]
zakim, mute me
14:01:14 [Zakim]
marcia should now be muted
14:01:16 [Zakim]
+??P3
14:01:18 [uldis]
zakim, ??P3 is me
14:01:18 [Zakim]
+uldis; got it
14:01:21 [Zakim]
+??P15
14:01:27 [antoine]
zakim, michaelp is maichelp
14:01:27 [Zakim]
sorry, antoine, I do not recognize a party named 'michaelp'
14:01:39 [Zakim]
+??P16
14:01:43 [antoine]
zakim, ??P15 is kai
14:01:43 [Zakim]
+kai; got it
14:02:04 [antoine]
zakim, ??P16 is GordonD
14:02:04 [Zakim]
+GordonD; got it
14:02:17 [antoine]
rrsagent, please draft minutes
14:02:17 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/03/24-lld-minutes.html antoine
14:02:18 [Zakim]
+[LC]
14:02:19 [edsu]
zakim, [LC] is edsu
14:02:19 [Zakim]
+edsu; got it
14:02:56 [Zakim]
+??P18
14:03:00 [ww]
zakim, ??P18 is me
14:03:00 [Zakim]
+ww; got it
14:04:00 [kefo]
yes
14:04:05 [kcoyle]
kcoyle has joined #lld
14:04:30 [kefo]
RESOLUTION: Accept minutes: http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/minutes/2011/03/17-lld-minutes.html
14:04:56 [ww]
zakim, mute me
14:04:56 [Zakim]
ww should now be muted
14:05:00 [Zakim]
+??P27
14:05:09 [kefo]
TOPIC: Final Report Draft
14:05:11 [antoine]
zakim, ??P27 is kcoyle
14:05:11 [Zakim]
+kcoyle; got it
14:05:59 [kefo]
Antoine: Gordon's page a complete description of standards. Wondering where it might fit?
14:06:10 [kefo]
.. Anyone have comments about this?
14:06:21 [kefo]
.. It is the library data resources page.
14:06:41 [GordonD]
Note that it's not entirely "my" page - it is a conflation of two earlier pieces, one of which was mine
14:06:50 [kefo]
kcoyle: Could go with vocabularies, but we don;'t have a general description about where things are in the library world and this kind of communicates this.
14:07:10 [kefo]
Antoine: This is mostly vocab related.
14:07:22 [kefo]
kcoyle: It has MARC, AACR, RDA....
14:07:23 [monica]
monica has joined #lld
14:07:39 [ray]
ray has joined #lld
14:07:57 [kefo]
Antoine: Perhaps a library resource data page?
14:08:03 [Zakim]
+monica
14:08:08 [GordonD]
q+
14:08:15 [kefo]
kcoyle: This is not particular to any single issue, but a general overview.
14:08:17 [antoine]
zakim, ack GordonD
14:08:17 [Zakim]
I see no one on the speaker queue
14:08:38 [kefo]
GordonD: I see this page now as a type of snapshot of what is going on. Will this page be maintained after the life of the group?
14:09:00 [kefo]
... It would be useful to have a page that keeps everyone informed, providing a general page for library standards./
14:09:23 [Zakim]
+[LC]
14:09:26 [kefo]
Antoine: It certainly has details that need to be in the final report.
14:09:37 [antoine]
zakim, LC is ray
14:09:37 [Zakim]
+ray; got it
14:10:09 [kefo]
... GorddonD, do you believe it is ready for publication, as a type of deliverable.
14:10:46 [kefo]
GordonD: Yes, but could change tomorrow. Perhaps the derliverable is a Wiki page that could be maintained, so there is always a current place to go for info.
14:10:48 [jneubert]
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14:11:18 [kefo]
Antoine: Perhaps move this page to the community-oriented wiki for community editing and management.
14:11:44 [kcoyle]
q+
14:11:44 [Zakim]
+ +49.173.609.aaaa
14:11:46 [kefo]
... We could make a snapshot as a deliverable, but with ample note that it is a snapshot and changing.
14:12:01 [jneubert]
zakim, aaaa is jneubert
14:12:01 [Zakim]
+jneubert; got it
14:12:09 [kefo]
GordonD: I'm happy to monitor this page and revisit this just before the final report is published.
14:12:11 [antoine]
zakim, ack kcoyle
14:12:11 [Zakim]
I see no one on the speaker queue
14:12:41 [kefo]
kcoyle: Have we talked about who our audience is for the deliverable? How much knowledge og library data are we assuming on the part of the readers?
14:13:07 [kefo]
Antoine: I think we deteremined that the audience is extremely varied. Not everyone will be aware of hte complexities of hte library domain.
14:13:21 [kefo]
kcoryle: Then we will likely need an explanatory section./
14:13:50 [kefo]
... There are some points we will need to make. A section that includes the key points.
14:14:15 [kefo]
... Those that are most relevant to our tasks; contextualization for the rest of the report.
14:14:40 [kefo]
Antoine: Could this be treated in the problems and limitations section? It discusses some of the issues regarding complexity.
14:15:10 [kefo]
kcoyle: Something to think about. Could we position the issues page to frame this issue.
14:15:58 [kefo]
GordonD: We came to an opposite decision earlier. My contribution came from the library standards page, part of which was merged into the problems and limitations page.
14:17:30 [marcia]
+1
14:17:45 [kefo]
GordonD: Like the idea of a glossary, info page. And we can have a paragraph in the final report that would direct interested readers to a page with fgar more depth intothis issue.
14:18:36 [kefo]
ACTION: For Gordon and Karen to consider rlation between problems and limitation section and the library resource wiki page.
14:19:02 [marcia]
It is more like the 'Status of This Document' in W3C docs such as SKOS
14:19:43 [kefo]
Antoine: How is the action coming along?
14:20:01 [kefo]
edsu: Can't make next week's telecon, so won't be able to discuss then.
14:20:31 [kefo]
Ross: I can discuss. Emmanuelle has started something. Should be ready for next week. Definitely the bullet points. I can present:
14:20:33 [kefo]
ACTION: edsu, rsinger, emma to create a few bullet points on the benefits of linked data in libraries for the call on March 31st
14:20:35 [kefo]
--continues
14:20:35 [edsu]
rsinger++
14:20:40 [michaelp]
michaelp has joined #lld
14:20:55 [rsinger]
save your karma until after i actually do something :)
14:21:29 [kefo]
Antoine: New member, Daniel Vila Suero. He will own the Use Case document(s).
14:22:09 [kefo]
Antoine: Available data (vocabularies, datasets), on going.
14:22:55 [kefo]
Antoine: Jeff published page for tools, any comments?
14:23:45 [kefo]
Antoine: Requirements and contributions section. Guenther offered, but was concerned about how much time he would be able to commit to this.
14:24:10 [kefo]
... There was some discussion about someone lending Guenther some assistance. Anyone interested?
14:24:34 [kefo]
TOPIC: USE CASE CLUSTERS
14:24:45 [kefo]
Antoine: Jodi and Uldis, status report?
14:25:00 [uldis]
http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/wiki/Cluster_Social_Uses
14:25:10 [kefo]
Uldis: We've gathered some info and use cases. These are here: http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/wiki/Cluster_Social_Uses
14:25:28 [Zakim]
-edsu
14:25:46 [kefo]
... Jodi and I haven't had the time in the last couple of weeks. Can't say something definitive abotu the time frame, but we hope to have something for the group in the next two weeks.
14:26:33 [kefo]
... We have good information, but if anyone would like to take a second look, or add a little, there is time.
14:26:58 [kefo]
... Lastly, assuming we'll have a cluster report for social uses, it would be appropriate to have that too in the draft report.
14:27:12 [uldis]
http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/wiki/DraftReport#Use_cases_and_requirements
14:27:17 [kefo]
Antoine: It should be mentioned in the final report and the side deliverable.
14:27:36 [kefo]
... Feel free to add something to the draft report.
14:27:51 [kefo]
ACTION: Uldis and Jodi to create social uses cluster
14:27:51 [Zakim]
+[LC]
14:27:54 [kefo]
--continues
14:27:59 [edsu]
Zakim, LC is edsu
14:27:59 [Zakim]
+edsu; got it
14:28:07 [kefo]
TOPIC: PROBLEMS / LIMITATIONS / ISSUES - SECTION IN REPORT
14:28:52 [kefo]
kcoyle: Three main things happened this week. We worked in the issue of redundancy. We added some questions (ones about terminology, others about whether we should have a separate section on library data).
14:29:16 [kefo]
... In each section, we have info about library data. So there is some redundancy.
14:30:00 [kefo]
... Throughout there are questions that relate directly to library data. Perhaps we should pull this information out as its own issue. Should we try to do that and then let people weigh in?
14:30:47 [uldis]
http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/wiki/Draft_issues_page
14:31:26 [kefo]
... There are neatly defined problems and limitations, and various issues that find a natural home in an existing section. But the redundancy issue, for example, doesn't quite fit in any of the existing sections. And, because it keeps coming up, perhaps it should have its own section.
14:32:19 [kefo]
.... for example, in the second to last paragraph, we trying to talk about hte current library data model and its relation to the linked data data model.
14:32:36 [kefo]
Antoine: Would this related to list discussion about constraints?
14:33:48 [kefo]
kcoyle: Some issues are current and presnet issues. But then there are others that have more to do with *future* library work.
14:34:42 [kefo]
GordonD: I think we're confalting 2 or 3 things here. There is an issue with legacy library data. But there is another issue that revolves around syncing legacy library data to newer models.
14:35:01 [kefo]
... Newer models havea better chance of integrating Linked Data ideas.
14:35:33 [ww]
GordonD: agree it is a generic problem
14:36:42 [kefo]
kcoyle: I still have the question about the issue about having existing library data moving to new model. Are we saying the same thing when we use "data model" in these cases?
14:37:21 [kefo]
... Gordon's proposed an alternate wording for this.
14:38:24 [kefo]
GordonD: Some of the wording makes assumptions that are not explicitly said.
14:39:14 [kefo]
... We can say that there are problems with legacy data. But we don't have to say that legacy models are negatively impacting moving to linked data model.
14:39:45 [kefo]
Antoine: What about the role of catalogers?
14:40:34 [kefo]
GordonD: This is an important point. But, we have to focus on presenting information in one specific way which will necessarily scatter other necesssary messages around the document.
14:41:03 [Asaf]
Asaf has joined #lld
14:41:15 [kefo]
... I think there is a key message about legacy library data and I think there is a key message to be made for linked data helping the future.
14:42:17 [ww]
q+
14:42:20 [ww]
zakim, unmute me
14:42:20 [Zakim]
ww should no longer be muted
14:42:24 [antoine]
zakim, ack ww
14:42:24 [Zakim]
I see no one on the speaker queue
14:42:26 [kefo]
kcoyle: There is a great focus on FRBR and that it is the road to linked data for libraries. Do we want to say something in favor or against this.
14:42:55 [rsinger]
...in all cases
14:43:02 [rsinger]
(let's clarify)
14:43:04 [kefo]
ww: I think the important point is the one Dan Brickley made. You don't have to talk about FRBR, but the model of data.
14:43:05 [jeff_]
q+
14:43:22 [marcia]
treat as ONE of the options
14:43:25 [kefo]
kcoyle: So what do we say instead?
14:43:26 [edsu]
q+
14:43:56 [kefo]
Antoine: Marcia has proposed ot treat FRBR as ONE of the options, which seems far.
14:44:10 [kefo]
kcoyle: In that case, that supports Gordon'
14:44:15 [jeff_]
ack me
14:44:19 [kefo]
... Gordon's alternate wording.
14:44:26 [antoine]
zakim, jeff_
14:44:26 [Zakim]
I don't understand 'jeff_', antoine
14:44:32 [ww]
kefo: to rephrase: might not be the best strategy to mechanically translate WEMI to RDF classes
14:44:36 [antoine]
zakim, ack jeff_
14:44:36 [Zakim]
I see edsu on the speaker queue
14:44:45 [kefo]
jeff_: I think the FRBR classifications are less important than the relationships.
14:45:04 [antoine]
zakim, ack edsu
14:45:04 [Zakim]
I see no one on the speaker queue
14:45:04 [jeff_]
zakim, mute me
14:45:06 [Zakim]
jeff_ should now be muted
14:45:39 [rsinger]
q+
14:45:56 [antoine]
q+
14:46:01 [ww]
zakim, mute me
14:46:01 [Zakim]
ww should now be muted
14:46:07 [kefo]
edsu: It would hard to envision a report that didn't mention FRBR, but endorsing it as *the* model for library data might not be wise. Fine to talk about it as a conceptual model that has found its way into other vocabularies and has found its supporters.
14:47:13 [marcia]
or say 'emerging'
14:47:31 [ww]
q?
14:47:37 [antoine]
zakim, ack rsinger
14:47:37 [Zakim]
I see antoine on the speaker queue
14:48:01 [GordonD]
+1 identifiers are the key (forgive pun)
14:48:03 [kefo]
ross: I think one way to de-emphasize one model or another is to focus on identifiers.
14:48:20 [kefo]
kcoyle: Right, emphasize identifiers and RDF.
14:48:54 [ww]
zakim, unmute me
14:48:54 [Zakim]
ww should no longer be muted
14:48:57 [kefo]
ross: FRBR can be mentioned, and other bibliographic models, but what matters more are the identifiers (model matters too). But, once we have identifiers, we have the flexibility to describe them.
14:49:04 [GordonD]
Identifiers = authority control (kind of), and this bridges lld pov with library pov
14:49:13 [rsinger]
GordonD: agreed
14:49:34 [antoine]
zakim, ack antoine
14:49:34 [Zakim]
I see no one on the speaker queue
14:49:39 [edsu]
:-)
14:49:53 [ww]
1+ to emphasis on identifiers
14:50:12 [kefo]
kcoyle: I think the next step is to look at recommendations.
14:50:17 [ww]
zakim, mute me
14:50:17 [Zakim]
ww should now be muted
14:50:22 [edsu]
rsinger: yeah, i liked that too
14:50:46 [kefo]
... We've started to add recommendations as bullet points. If others want to add to this work, please do. Then we can start turning this into text.
14:51:11 [ww]
keep the field open for different conceptual and organisational models grounded in the identifiers
14:51:25 [kefo]
kcoyle: For every issue, we should have at least one recommendation. What do we want to do with the issues?
14:52:08 [kefo]
... The issues are imporant, but our recommendations are the real contribution here.
14:52:47 [Zakim]
-monica
14:53:15 [kefo]
kcoyle: We can set up a page, ask others, and recommend people discuss it on the list.
14:53:18 [GordonD]
+1 put the recommendations up for public lld discussion
14:53:57 [GordonD]
I think we may get some surprising feedback
14:54:02 [marcia]
+1
14:54:39 [kefo]
ACTION: Karen to request feedback from community on recommendations
14:55:09 [kefo]
Antoine: There was an action for all to look at the use cases and report back.
14:55:39 [kefo]
kcoyle: We did not get a lot of feedback, but I think we're all on the same page. So, I'm not concerned
14:55:44 [kefo]
ACTION: everyone to take a look at the issues and make sure that points from the use cases are represented in the document
14:55:47 [kefo]
--done
14:56:44 [GordonD]
We're in a feedback loop until closer to the final report - so further feedback on problems and limitations is welcome
14:57:29 [kai]
Sorry, I have to leave timely today. Bye everyone.
14:57:29 [antoine]
http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/wiki/Library_standards_and_linked_data
14:57:34 [kefo]
Antoine: next action. Discussion of open questions about library standards and linked data
14:57:41 [kefo]
GordonD: I think we can close that action.
14:57:43 [Zakim]
-kai
14:57:47 [kefo]
ACTION: As a future topic for March 10, discuss the open questions in the second half of http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/wiki/Library_standards_and_linked_data
14:57:48 [kefo]
--done
14:58:12 [kefo]
Antoine: Any additional business? Comments?
14:58:35 [rsinger]
great moderating :)
14:58:40 [marcia]
:-)
14:58:44 [kefo]
.. OK, we'll adjourn the meeting. Thanks all. See you next week.
14:58:46 [Zakim]
-michaelp
14:58:46 [marcia]
thanks
14:58:47 [ww]
bye all
14:58:49 [Zakim]
-jeff_
14:58:49 [rsinger]
bye
14:58:50 [jeff_]
jeff_ has left #lld
14:58:50 [Zakim]
-kcoyle
14:58:50 [Zakim]
-GordonD
14:58:50 [Zakim]
-ray
14:58:51 [kefo]
[adjourned]
14:58:51 [Zakim]
-ww
14:58:51 [Zakim]
-edsu
14:58:55 [Zakim]
-uldis
14:58:56 [Zakim]
-marcia
14:59:00 [kefo]
zakim, unmute me
14:59:02 [Zakim]
kefo should no longer be muted
14:59:02 [antoine]
zakim, please list attendees
14:59:04 [uldis]
uldis has left #lld
14:59:08 [Zakim]
As of this point the attendees have been antoine, kefo, marcia, jeff_, rsinger, uldis, kai, GordonD, edsu, ww, kcoyle, monica, ray, +49.173.609.aaaa, jneubert, michaelp
14:59:11 [Zakim]
-jneubert
14:59:14 [Zakim]
-rsinger
14:59:15 [digikim]
hmm...
14:59:25 [antoine]
rrsagent, please draft minutes
14:59:25 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/03/24-lld-minutes.html antoine
14:59:41 [digikim]
daylight saving times seem to differ between Finland and USA :-/
14:59:49 [digikim]
(thought the meeting would start now)
15:00:56 [rsinger]
digikim: yeah, we start two weeks before/end two weeks after
15:01:33 [digikim]
ok
15:05:27 [Zakim]
-kefo
15:05:33 [Zakim]
-antoine
15:05:34 [Zakim]
INC_LLDXG()10:00AM has ended
15:05:36 [Zakim]
Attendees were antoine, kefo, marcia, jeff_, rsinger, uldis, kai, GordonD, edsu, ww, kcoyle, monica, ray, +49.173.609.aaaa, jneubert, michaelp
15:06:05 [antoine]
zakim, bye
15:06:05 [Zakim]
Zakim has left #lld
15:06:11 [antoine]
rrsagent, bye
15:06:11 [RRSAgent]
I see 6 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2011/03/24-lld-actions.rdf :
15:06:11 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: For Gordon and Karen to consider rlation between problems and limitation section and the library resource wiki page. [1]
15:06:11 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2011/03/24-lld-irc#T14-18-36
15:06:11 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: edsu, rsinger, emma to create a few bullet points on the benefits of linked data in libraries for the call on March 31st [2]
15:06:11 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2011/03/24-lld-irc#T14-20-33
15:06:11 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: Uldis and Jodi to create social uses cluster [3]
15:06:11 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2011/03/24-lld-irc#T14-27-51
15:06:11 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: Karen to request feedback from community on recommendations [4]
15:06:11 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2011/03/24-lld-irc#T14-54-39
15:06:11 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: everyone to take a look at the issues and make sure that points from the use cases are represented in the document [5]
15:06:11 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2011/03/24-lld-irc#T14-55-44
15:06:11 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: As a future topic for March 10, discuss the open questions in the second half of http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/wiki/Library_standards_and_linked_data [6]
15:06:11 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2011/03/24-lld-irc#T14-57-47