IRC log of css on 2011-03-23

Timestamps are in UTC.

15:40:04 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #css
15:40:04 [RRSAgent]
logging to http://www.w3.org/2011/03/23-css-irc
15:40:10 [glazou]
Zakim, this will be Style
15:40:10 [Zakim]
ok, glazou; I see Style_CSS FP()12:00PM scheduled to start in 20 minutes
15:40:15 [glazou]
RRSAgent, make logs public
15:46:27 [bradk]
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shan has joined #css
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15:56:44 [glazou]
Zakim, code ?
15:56:44 [Zakim]
the conference code is 78953 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.26.46.79.03 tel:+44.203.318.0479), glazou
15:57:31 [Zakim]
Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has now started
15:57:38 [Zakim]
+plinss
15:58:13 [cesar]
cesar has joined #css
15:58:20 [Zakim]
+ +39.508.9.aaaa
15:58:28 [glazou]
Zakim, aaaa is me
15:58:28 [Zakim]
+glazou; got it
15:59:00 [Zakim]
+[Apple]
15:59:13 [hober]
Zakim, [Apple] has hober
15:59:16 [Zakim]
+hober; got it
15:59:43 [Zakim]
+ +1.949.654.aabb
15:59:52 [Zakim]
+[Microsoft]
16:00:02 [sylvaing]
sylvaing has joined #css
16:00:37 [Zakim]
+ +1.206.675.aacc
16:00:45 [Zakim]
+[IPcaller]
16:00:58 [Zakim]
+ +1.415.832.aadd
16:01:05 [stearns]
stearns has joined #css
16:01:15 [Zakim]
+David_Baron
16:01:28 [plinss]
zakim, aadd is arno
16:01:28 [Zakim]
+arno; got it
16:01:42 [Zakim]
+[Microsoft.a]
16:01:44 [johnjan]
johnjan has joined #css
16:01:45 [Zakim]
+[Microsoft.aa]
16:01:59 [arronei]
zakim, microsoft.a is me
16:02:00 [Zakim]
+arronei; got it
16:02:05 [duga]
duga has joined #css
16:02:07 [Zakim]
+ +1.858.063.aaee
16:02:07 [johnjan]
zakim, microsoft is johnjan
16:02:08 [Zakim]
+johnjan; got it
16:02:39 [Zakim]
+ +1.415.920.aaff
16:02:49 [sylvaing]
zakim, [Microsoft] has johjan, sylvaing
16:02:49 [Zakim]
sorry, sylvaing, I do not recognize a party named '[Microsoft]'
16:03:07 [Zakim]
+??P22
16:03:13 [sylvaing]
zakim, Microsoft has johjan, sylvaing
16:03:13 [Zakim]
sorry, sylvaing, I do not recognize a party named 'Microsoft'
16:03:19 [sylvaing]
zakim, Microsoft has sylvaing
16:03:19 [Zakim]
sorry, sylvaing, I do not recognize a party named 'Microsoft'
16:03:21 [kojiishi]
zakim, ??P22 is me
16:03:21 [Zakim]
+kojiishi; got it
16:03:25 [sylvaing]
zakim, [Microsoft] has sylvaing
16:03:25 [Zakim]
sorry, sylvaing, I do not recognize a party named '[Microsoft]'
16:03:31 [Zakim]
+Bert
16:03:43 [Zakim]
+ +1.650.275.aagg
16:04:01 [bradk]
zakim, aagg is me
16:04:02 [Zakim]
+bradk; got it
16:04:13 [stearns]
zakim, +1.206.675.aacc is me
16:04:14 [Zakim]
+stearns; got it
16:04:37 [cesar]
I'm on the phone, but I don't know who is me. ;)
16:05:22 [oyvinds]
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16:05:56 [cesar]
(I'm calling through VoipBuster, to the Boston regular number.)
16:06:26 [fantasai]
ScribeNick: fantasai
16:06:43 [fantasai]
glazou: Regrets from Tab, Dave Singer, and Steve Zilles
16:06:48 [fantasai]
glazou: Any extra items for the agenda?
16:06:55 [bradk]
zakim, whi is making noise?
16:06:55 [Zakim]
I don't understand your question, bradk.
16:06:57 [plinss]
zakim, who is noisy?
16:07:09 [Zakim]
plinss, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: glazou (90%), arronei (62%)
16:07:17 [fantasai]
glazou: First item is next F2F. We have to decide something about next F2F meeting
16:07:38 [fantasai]
glazou: I am not really myself in favor of going to Japan. The news we receive from Japan is mixed.
16:07:56 [fantasai]
glazou: Would like to hear from all WG members what you think about that , should we try to relocate?
16:08:18 [fantasai]
glazou: We have two alternative proposals, W3C to host in Sophia-Antipolis, or MS to host in Redmond
16:08:25 [fantasai]
sylvaing: Could also host elsewhere in Europe
16:08:42 [fantasai]
sylvaing: I'm in favor of waiting a few more weeks before making a final decision
16:08:45 [alexmog]
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16:08:55 [fantasai]
sylvaing: But set up a backup, then make a final decision in 3-4 weeks
16:09:02 [fantasai]
glazou: 3-4 weeks is too late for me
16:09:15 [fantasai]
glazou: I would like to be able to book flights 2 months in advance, because otherwise airline prices go crazy
16:09:22 [fantasai]
sylvaing: In this situation, you can't predict that.
16:09:28 [fantasai]
glazou: Not speaking of Japan, in general.
16:09:38 [fantasai]
sylvaing: If we cancel Japan, we can change the date of the F2F if need be
16:10:07 [fantasai]
sylvaing: For people who already booked for Japan, they already have a problem.
16:10:17 [fantasai]
glazou: Then we have to renegotiate dates that works for everyone.
16:10:26 [fantasai]
Bert: atm, I don't feel like going to Japan in 2 months.
16:10:33 [fantasai]
Bert: Later would work. Somewhere else would work for me too
16:10:39 [fantasai]
Arno: I'd be fine going to Japan
16:11:01 [fantasai]
Brad: I was already looking at not going to Japan due to expense.
16:11:13 [fantasai]
Brad: Even without expense, would be concerned about going there.
16:11:51 [fantasai]
? Apple: We're likely to have more participants the closer it is to Cupertino. I'm willing to go to Japan, but others more likely to come to Redmond
16:12:02 [fantasai]
David: I have mixed feelings about Japan right now.
16:12:18 [fantasai]
David: As far as dates for Europe, I would prefer to keep current dates or earlier.
16:12:22 [fantasai]
David: Steve might be in same boat
16:12:38 [fantasai]
David: AC meeting is in May in Europe
16:12:43 [fantasai]
glazou: 15-17 of May
16:12:54 [fantasai]
sylvaing: So we would move it earlier, still need to negotiate dates.
16:13:00 [Bert]
(I checked local dates, and 23-27 May is OK for us, too)
16:13:13 [fantasai]
David: I'd be fine with current dates, too
16:13:31 [Bert]
(But not 18-20, because of several other events.)
16:14:08 [fantasai]
fantasai: I don't feel too concerned given the people from Tokyo don't seem too concerned.
16:14:28 [dbaron]
fantasai: Not available May 26-29.
16:14:36 [bradk]
my wife is more concerned about safety in Japan than I am, actually, but that counts.
16:15:01 [fantasai]
Koji: I don't think there's much problem with transportation, but some problems with electricity. Will talk to Japanese government tomorrow. Can we postpone until next week?
16:15:04 [fantasai]
glazou: OK.
16:15:19 [fantasai]
glazou: I would like to decide at least 60 days in advance.
16:15:25 [fantasai]
plinss: My concern is the Tokyo Workshop.
16:15:38 [fantasai]
plinss: If we didn't have the workshop, I would say let's just go somewhere else.
16:15:51 [fantasai]
plinss: But don't want to bail out from that, if it's still going on.
16:16:04 [fantasai]
plinss: So would like to hear about status of that
16:16:11 [fantasai]
Koji: I will talk to them tomorrow and get back to you.
16:16:46 [fantasai]
Bert: If we organize something here in Sophia, I've only asked for up to 20 people. If we need more space, will have to ask again about arrangements.
16:16:59 [fantasai]
glazou: I will send a call for attendance after the telecon
16:17:07 [fantasai]
glazou: Don't think we can do better than that for now.
16:17:21 [fantasai]
Topic: CSS2.1
16:17:35 [fantasai]
glazou: We have a few issues to revisit, due to answers to posts to www-style
16:17:39 [fantasai]
http://wiki.csswg.org/spec/css2.1
16:18:12 [fantasai]
fantasai: I'm confused about status of dbaron's issues. There's notes in the wiki, but couldn't tell if they are closed or not.
16:18:19 [fantasai]
199 needs WG discussion
16:18:25 [fantasai]
203 needs WG discussion
16:18:35 [fantasai]
I need to work with Bert on 215
16:19:48 [Zakim]
+ +1.425.246.aahh
16:20:04 [fantasai]
fantasai: The old definition said the top left corner of the leftmost box and the bottom right of the rightmost box.
16:20:24 [fantasai]
fantasai: That works fine for bidi splitting, just have a problem with splitting across multiple lines, which needs to be undefined.
16:20:41 [fantasai]
Bert: Oh, ok. I understand what needs to be done.
16:20:49 [fantasai]
240 needs WG discussion
16:21:19 [fantasai]
http://wiki.csswg.org/spec/css2.1#issue-240
16:22:23 [fantasai]
fantasai: Issue is undefining min-/max- width/height on table elements.
16:22:39 [fantasai]
fantasai: We stated undefined for internal elements, but missed table and inline-table.
16:22:40 [dbaron]
I agree min/max-width should be undefined for table and inline-table
16:22:56 [fantasai]
RESOLVED: Make table and inline-table undefined for min/max-width/height
16:24:09 [fantasai]
http://wiki.csswg.org/spec/css2.1#issue-199
16:24:16 [fantasai]
fantasai: Edits introduced a regression in the spec
16:24:34 [fantasai]
fantasai: Proposal in the wiki
16:28:00 [fantasai]
dbaron: I don't understand what you mean by static position here.
16:28:26 [fantasai]
dbaron: The static position only refers to abspos elements.
16:29:22 [fantasai]
dbaron: But we need this for floats as well.
16:29:52 [fantasai]
fantasai: What if we removed the word "static"?
16:29:58 [fantasai]
dbaron: That's fine.
16:31:09 [fantasai]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2010May/0698.html
16:31:13 [dbaron]
I think it should just say "position" rather than "static position"
16:31:34 [fantasai]
fantasai: So does this still solve the original issue?
16:32:28 [fantasai]
dbaron: So the issue is about having this line box not exist for determining the baseline
16:32:53 [fantasai]
dbaron: Yes, I think this text takes care of that issue.
16:33:33 [fantasai]
glazou: Any objections to using this text?
16:33:47 [fantasai]
Arron: I think the text is fine if we remove 'static' just like dbaron says.
16:33:57 [fantasai]
Arron: We do mean any positioning, not just static position for abspos elements.
16:34:27 [dbaron]
Arron: ... talking about Elika's final text at bottom of http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2011Mar/0530.html
16:35:25 [fantasai]
Bert: I'm not sure it's correct. What is the position of something in a zero-height line box? Where is the baseline in that?
16:36:02 [fantasai]
fantasai: I imagine it would be the position of the line box.
16:36:17 [fantasai]
fantasai: We could further clarify by saying that the height of all boxes inside that line boxes is also zero.
16:37:00 [fantasai]
Bert: If they are zero-height, are they zero line-height?
16:37:12 [glazou]
sylvaing: eh
16:37:13 [fantasai]
fantasai: yes
16:38:11 [fantasai]
Bert: Let's take the text, I'll think about it a little more, but the problem is with how tables work, really, which leads to these strange constructions.
16:38:54 [fantasai]
Bert: Was it Anton that asked if this also applied to shortened line boxes next to floats?
16:39:00 [fantasai]
Bert: Or is that solved in some other way?
16:39:12 [Zakim]
+ChrisL
16:40:02 [fantasai]
fantasai: Line boxes next to floats either contain content, in which case this section doesn't apply, or they don't contain content, in which case content in them moves down until it fits.
16:40:19 [fantasai]
Bert: Let's do it and see what happens. We have errata if needed.
16:40:21 [ChrisL]
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16:40:29 [fantasai]
RESOLVED: Accept proposal at bottom of email
16:40:37 [fantasai]
http://wiki.csswg.org/spec/css2.1#issue-203
16:40:44 [ChrisL]
rrsagent, here
16:40:44 [RRSAgent]
See http://www.w3.org/2011/03/23-css-irc#T16-40-44
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16:41:00 [fantasai]
fantasai: I don't understand this issue.
16:43:50 [fantasai]
dbaron: I don't think I'm going to get my head into this issue within the duration of the telecon, certainly. It's very complicated.
16:45:04 [johnjan]
as far as I can tell, here's the latest: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2011Mar/0431.html
16:45:45 [fantasai]
glazou: Then let's defer this until we have more information.
16:46:05 [fantasai]
glazou: Let's move on to other problems.
16:46:24 [fantasai]
fantasai: plinss said we are missing passes for bidi-004a
16:46:41 [fantasai]
http://test.csswg.org/suites/css2.1/nightly-unstable/html4/bidi-004a.htm
16:47:05 [fantasai]
dbaron: I thought there were additional changes to make to the white space in that test
16:47:11 [fantasai]
fantasai: I thought I made those changes
16:47:44 [fantasai]
Arron: Yes. The changes are correct wrt what we said we wanted to change at the last meeting.
16:48:10 [fantasai]
plinss: Opera doesn't put white space between "ccc" and "ddd"
16:48:32 [fantasai]
plinss: It does if you add a space right after 'ccc' in the test case, I believe.
16:48:40 [fantasai]
Arron: Opera still has the padding bug on the middle line
16:50:24 [alexmog]
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16:50:33 [fantasai]
...
16:50:37 [fantasai]
Arron: IE9 passes
16:50:50 [fantasai]
fantasai: How does FF fail?
16:50:56 [stearns]
FF4 ends up with 5 lines
16:51:01 [fantasai]
dbaron: shrink-wrap calculation fails
16:52:11 [fantasai]
dbaron: I'm not sure if the white space change was what was intended. Maybe needed to drop the opposite space.
16:52:58 [alexmog_at_crappy]
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16:54:02 [fantasai]
dbaron discusses various FF bugs demonstrated by the testcase
16:54:15 [fantasai]
Arron: With that change, IE now fails
16:54:24 [Zakim]
-glazou
16:54:57 [Zakim]
+??P8
16:55:04 [glazou]
Zakim, ??P8 is me
16:55:04 [Zakim]
+glazou; got it
16:55:49 [Zakim]
-[Microsoft]
16:57:34 [Zakim]
-alexmog
17:01:29 [Zakim]
-arno
17:02:24 [fantasai]
No hope of passes.
17:02:30 [fantasai]
plinss: Need some kind of strategy.
17:02:35 [arno]
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17:02:43 [Zakim]
-[Apple]
17:02:44 [Zakim]
-glazou
17:02:46 [Zakim]
- +1.949.654.aabb
17:02:46 [Zakim]
-arronei
17:02:47 [Zakim]
- +1.858.063.aaee
17:02:47 [fantasai]
Meeting closed.
17:02:47 [Zakim]
-[IPcaller]
17:02:52 [Zakim]
-David_Baron
17:02:57 [Zakim]
-ChrisL
17:03:00 [Zakim]
-Bert
17:03:17 [Zakim]
-kojiishi
17:03:26 [arronei]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/w3c-archive/2011Mar/att-0210/_CSS21_last-call.htm
17:03:32 [cesar]
zakim, IPcaller is me
17:03:32 [Zakim]
sorry, cesar, I do not recognize a party named 'IPcaller'
17:05:51 [Zakim]
-bradk
17:06:09 [glazou]
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18:04:45 [Zakim]
-[Microsoft.aa]
18:04:48 [Zakim]
- +1.415.920.aaff
18:04:49 [Zakim]
-plinss
18:04:58 [arno]
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18:09:49 [Zakim]
disconnecting the lone participant, stearns, in Style_CSS FP()12:00PM
18:09:50 [Zakim]
Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has ended
18:09:55 [Zakim]
Attendees were plinss, +39.508.9.aaaa, glazou, hober, +1.949.654.aabb, [IPcaller], +1.415.832.aadd, David_Baron, arno, arronei, +1.858.063.aaee, +1.415.920.aaff, kojiishi, Bert,
18:09:58 [Zakim]
... +1.650.275.aagg, johnjan, sylvaing, bradk, stearns, +1.425.246.aahh, alexmog, ChrisL
18:12:16 [h0x0r]
hi there!!
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