IRC log of media on 2011-03-20

Timestamps are in UTC.

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15:55:57 [MichaelC]: meeting: HTML A11Y TF FtF - Media sub-group
15:56:03 [MichaelC]: chair: Janina_Sajka
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15:56:27 [MichaelC]: zakim, this will be 21192
15:56:27 [Zakim]: ok, MichaelC; I see WAI_(A11YAF2F)11:30AM scheduled to start 26 minutes ago
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17:57:46 [Zakim]: WAI_(A11YAF2F)11:30AM has now started
17:57:53 [Zakim]: +??P0
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17:58:05 [Zakim]: WAI_(A11YAF2F)11:30AM has ended
17:58:05 [Zakim]: Attendees were
17:58:22 [frankolivier]: you are back
17:58:50 [silvia]: TOPIC: HTML markup for the JS API that we discussed yesterday
17:58:55 [Zakim]: WAI_(A11YAF2F)11:30AM has now started
17:59:01 [Zakim]: +??P1
17:59:09 [MichaelC]: zakim, ??P1 is FtF
17:59:10 [Zakim]: +FtF; got it
17:59:19 [silvia]: http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/wiki/Media_Multitrack_Media_API#.2810.29_HTML_Accessibility_Task_Force_proposal_.28.22The_San_Diego_Solution.22.29
17:59:55 [silvia]: EC: we proposed to extend <track> to media resources, too
18:00:45 [silvia]: EC: we suggest to put <source> inside the <track> element and run the same source selection algorithm on tracks as we run on video
18:02:01 [silvia]: FO: so we have a source and a track selection algorithm
18:02:24 [silvia]: .. and the regular source selection algorithm is also applied to the source elements in the track element
18:02:34 [silvia]: EC: this is similar conceptually to having separate audio and video elements
18:02:39 [silvia]: scribe: silvia
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18:04:37 [janina]: zakim, who's on the phone?
18:04:37 [Zakim]: On the phone I see FtF
18:05:01 [eric_carlson]: http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/wiki/Media_Multitrack_Media_API#.2810.29_HTML_Accessibility_Task_Force_proposal_.28.22The_San_Diego_Solution.22.29
18:05:38 [silvia]: FO: what do I do if track links to a resource, but that doesn't load?
18:05:48 [silvia]: EC: you set up all the tracks, but put an error on it
18:06:03 [silvia]: … I would assume that you don't render anything
18:06:21 [silvia]: SP: is it added to the list of available tracks on the menu?
18:06:25 [eric_carlson]: A simple example:
18:06:29 [silvia]: EC: maybe not, or it's shown, but as disabled
18:06:30 [eric_carlson]: <video id="v1" poster=“video.png” controls>
18:06:31 [eric_carlson]:
18:06:31 [eric_carlson]: <source src=“video.webm” type=”video/webm”>
18:06:32 [eric_carlson]: <source src=“video.mp4” type=”video/mp4”>
18:06:32 [eric_carlson]:
18:06:32 [eric_carlson]: <track id="a1" kind="descriptions" srclang="en" label="English Audio Description">
18:06:34 [eric_carlson]: <source src="audesc.ogg" type="audio/ogg">
18:06:36 [eric_carlson]: <source src="audesc.mp3" type="audio/mpeg">
18:06:38 [eric_carlson]: </track>
18:06:40 [eric_carlson]:
18:06:42 [eric_carlson]: <track id="v2" kind="signings" srclang="asl" label="American Sign Language">
18:06:44 [eric_carlson]: <source src="signlang.webm" type="video/webm">
18:06:46 [eric_carlson]: <source src="signlang.mp4" type="video/mp4">
18:06:48 [eric_carlson]: </track>
18:06:50 [eric_carlson]: </video>
18:08:26 [silvia]: SP: this means we probably need to extend the @kind type
18:09:03 [eric_carlson]: and here is an example with multiple caption formats:
18:09:06 [eric_carlson]: <video id="v1" poster="video.png" controls>
18:09:06 [eric_carlson]:
18:09:07 [eric_carlson]: <source src="video.webm" type="video/webm">
18:09:07 [eric_carlson]: <source src="video.mp4" type="video/mp4">
18:09:07 [eric_carlson]:
18:09:08 [eric_carlson]: <track id="c1" kind="captions" srclang="en" label="Captions">
18:09:09 [eric_carlson]: <source src="captions.vtt" type="text/vtt">
18:09:11 [eric_carlson]: <source src="captions.xml" type="application/ttml+xml">
18:09:13 [eric_carlson]: </track>
18:09:15 [eric_carlson]: </video>
18:10:20 [silvia]: SP: this markup is where the formats are different for captions, but the content is identical
18:10:35 [silvia]: … if you wanted them both to appear for user selection, you'd need separate <track> elements
18:11:12 [silvia]: FO: semantics look fine
18:11:29 [silvia]: … I like that we re-use things from the video element
18:11:50 [silvia]: … the track mechanics can basically be read from the JS API
18:12:13 [silvia]: … the supported track @kinds are left to the UA?
18:12:52 [silvia]: … so if e.g. the device doesn't support audio, then audio tracks make no sense
18:13:13 [JF]: Bug around @kind: http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=11593
18:14:03 [silvia]: SH: what if we need to replace the video because, e.g. we have extended audio descriptions or an alternative video with a sign language overlay?
18:14:22 [silvia]: … there is no markup way to do that?
18:14:56 [silvia]: EC/SP: you'd have to use script
18:15:16 [silvia]: SH: there is no way for the browser to understand this as an alternative representation?
18:17:26 [silvia]: EC: yes, and this is probably good, because the browser in the case of the sign language video would need to download the audio twice
18:18:01 [silvia]: SH: so the best way to set up your video element in this case would be to have an empty main video with just the timeline and the others as dependent tracks?
18:19:25 [silvia]: EC: yes, that is possible with MP4 - you need some kind of track, but it can e.g. just be a 1x1 pixel image with the duration of the video, since it defines the timeline
18:19:36 [silvia]: … it could also just contain the poster with that duration ;-)
18:21:44 [silvia]: SH: is there a way to attach metadata to a track to define the name of a track?
18:22:09 [silvia]: SP: Ogg and Matroska have this functionality FAIK
18:22:59 [silvia]: SH: MP4 can do it, but it's not sure if the MP4 baseline provides it
18:23:11 [silvia]: … might just be a convention
18:23:26 [silvia]: SP: are we happy with this kind of markup?
18:23:44 [silvia]: JF: what @kind attributes do we need now?
18:23:51 [silvia]: … see http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=11593
18:23:59 [Sean]: I'd like to propose a strawman group='foo' attribute
18:25:17 [silvia]: SP: for audio descriptions we can probably just use the same value @kind=description as for text, because the content type will tell us whether it's audio or text
18:25:39 [silvia]: JS: is it necessary to distinguish between descriptions and extended descriptions?
18:27:34 [silvia]: SH: we have a problem if we specify both text resources and audio descriptions that are in the same <track>
18:28:28 [silvia]: … does the source selection require the same main mime type content to be listed in alternative <source> elements?
18:28:43 [silvia]: EC: no, source selection should continue to work in this situation
18:31:10 [silvia]: JF: what about extended audio descriptions?
18:31:39 [silvia]: SP: that means a change of the timeline and is a bit complicated
18:32:34 [silvia]: EC: the solution that Masatomo provided this morning with pauseOnExit may work if we use text tracks for extending
18:33:24 [silvia]: … seeking would be a problem
18:33:39 [silvia]: .. it's possible with a script - I am not sure we can do it without a script easily
18:33:52 [silvia]: … probably too hard to do it within the last call deadline
18:34:09 [silvia]: SH: we should at least address some mechanism of doing it
18:34:40 [silvia]: … text descriptions on the Web are more useful on the Web with snippets
18:35:09 [silvia]: EC: the requirement to split them into separate files is a bit honorous
18:35:29 [silvia]: SH: media fragments would work with a single audio file
18:35:36 [silvia]: EC: no plans to implement that
18:35:57 [silvia]: SH: you can do it with script
18:37:19 [silvia]: EC: the safest way is to separate them up front
18:37:53 [silvia]: JF: do we need @kind=signing and something for clear audio
18:41:11 [JF]: <source src=“video.mp4” type=”video/mp4”>
18:41:23 [JF]: <source src=“video.mp4” type=”video/mp4”>
18:41:59 [JF]: <source src=“video.mp4” type=”video/mp4”> <source src=“video.mp4” type=”video/mp4” kind="clearaudio">
18:42:21 [silvia]: SH: I think we need to be able to group tracks into groups where we can do replacements of a track or additions
18:44:23 [silvia]: … we need to give the UA enough information to be able to do the choices
18:44:31 [silvia]: SP: it's up to the user to make that choice
18:45:18 [silvia]: SH: in the case of, e.g. clear audio, we need a toggle control and how would the browser get this information?
18:46:43 [silvia]: SH: I propose we need an attribute called @group in which multiple tracks can be put together and thus marked as alternatives to each other
18:50:10 [silvia]: SP: how do radio buttons work in HTML?
18:50:57 [silvia]: SH: we could do that and use the same @name on all of the track elements that are alternatives to each other
18:53:35 [silvia]: SP: for clear audio, we have two audio tracks being an alternative to one - how would that work?
18:53:39 [eric_carlson]: an example of @name used to specify alternate video tracks:
18:53:41 [eric_carlson]: <video id="v1" poster="lecture.png" controls>
18:53:41 [eric_carlson]:
18:53:42 [eric_carlson]: <source src="lecture_audio.mp4" type="video/mp4">
18:53:42 [eric_carlson]:
18:53:42 [eric_carlson]: <track name="Lecture video" src="lecture_video_with_signing.mp4" ></track>
18:53:42 [eric_carlson]: <track name="Lecture video" src="lecture_video.mp4" ></track>
18:53:44 [eric_carlson]: </video>
18:55:14 [silvia]: SP: I don't think that solves the clear audio case yet - show me the markup
18:56:33 [eric_carlson]: an example with a clear-audio alternate:
18:56:37 [eric_carlson]: <video id="v1" poster="lecture.png" controls>
18:56:37 [eric_carlson]:
18:56:37 [eric_carlson]: <source src="lecture_video.mp4" type="video/mp4">
18:56:38 [eric_carlson]:
18:56:38 [eric_carlson]: <track name="Lecture audio" src="lecture_audio.mp4" ></track>
18:56:38 [eric_carlson]: <track name="Lecture audio" src="lecture_clear_audio.mp4" ></track>
18:56:40 [eric_carlson]: </video>
18:59:02 [silvia]: SP: isn't clear audio a way to separate the foreground speech from the background noise in two different audio resources?
18:59:10 [silvia]: SH: you could do that, but that's not how it's typically done
18:59:50 [silvia]: EC: it only has the foreground speech, so you have the alternative between full audio and speech only
19:00:18 [eric_carlson]: <video id="v1" poster="lecture.png" controls>
19:00:18 [eric_carlson]:
19:00:18 [eric_carlson]: <source src="lecture_video.mp4">
19:00:18 [eric_carlson]:
19:00:19 [eric_carlson]: <track name="Lecture audio" src="lecture_audio.mp4" label="Lecture audio"></track>
19:00:19 [eric_carlson]: <track name="Lecture audio" src="lecture_clear_audio.mp4" label="Lecture clear-audio"></track>
19:00:20 [silvia]: … if you have separated the two, then you don't need the original and you remove the radio selector, because it makes sense to have both available
19:00:21 [eric_carlson]: </video>
19:00:54 [silvia]: JF: how do we expose the different alternatives to the user?
19:01:05 [silvia]: EC: the @label does this, see the just posted example
19:02:02 [silvia]: MK: how do you do video or sign-language burnt in video and audio and clear audio?
19:04:33 [silvia]: SP: do we need a @kind for clear audio?
19:05:01 [silvia]: SH: we probably do, because right now the default is @kind=subtitles
19:05:20 [eric_carlson]: example with video/video with burned in signing alternates, and audio/clear-audio alternates
19:06:01 [silvia]: SP: we could have just @kind=audio and @kind=video to say that we have alternatives to the main audio/video
19:06:04 [eric_carlson]: because we have alternates for video and audio, we need to include a file as the <video> @src to define the "timeline"
19:06:10 [silvia]: SH: do we have a @kind=dub for dubbed audio?
19:06:19 [silvia]: … we need to probably find an extension mechanism for @kind
19:06:20 [eric_carlson]: eg. to give the element a duration:
19:06:22 [eric_carlson]: <video id="v1" poster="lecture.png" controls>
19:06:22 [eric_carlson]:
19:06:22 [eric_carlson]: <source src="timeline.mp4" type="video/mp4">
19:06:23 [eric_carlson]:
19:06:23 [eric_carlson]: <track name="Lecture video" src="lecture_video_with_signing.mp4" label="Lecture video"></track>
19:06:23 [eric_carlson]: <track name="Lecture video" src="lecture_video.mp4" label="Lecture video"></track>
19:06:25 [eric_carlson]:
19:06:27 [eric_carlson]: <track name="Lecture audio" src="lecture_audio.mp4" label="Lecture audio"></track>
19:06:30 [eric_carlson]: <track name="Lecture audio" src="lecture_clear_audio.mp4" label="Lecture clear-audio"></track>
19:06:31 [eric_carlson]: </video>
19:07:26 [silvia]: SP: what do you display by default?
19:07:59 [silvia]: EC: in the absense of the user preference, you display the first one
19:08:17 [silvia]: SH: we display nothing, since default is OFF
19:08:49 [silvia]: EC: might not make sense...
19:09:33 [silvia]: SH: it's showing the poster and since the author did the "trick" with the empty @src file, they would deal with that situation
19:09:57 [silvia]: MK: so the browser does not know which is the clear audio
19:10:05 [silvia]: EC: correct, we need a @kind
19:11:11 [eric_carlson]: same example, with "mode=enabled" for the default tracks and with @kind so the browser can identify the track kinds:
19:11:13 [eric_carlson]: <video id="v1" poster="lecture.png" controls>
19:11:13 [eric_carlson]:
19:11:13 [eric_carlson]: <source src="timeline.mp4" type="video/mp4">
19:11:13 [eric_carlson]:
19:11:14 [eric_carlson]: <track name="Lecture video" src="lecture_video_with_signing.mp4" mode="enabled" label="Lecture video"></track>
19:11:16 [eric_carlson]: <track name="Lecture video" kind="signing" src="lecture_video.mp4" label="Lecture video"></track>
19:11:18 [eric_carlson]:
19:11:20 [eric_carlson]: <track name="Lecture audio" src="lecture_audio.mp4" mode="enabled" label="Lecture audio"></track>
19:11:22 [eric_carlson]: <track name="Lecture audio" kind="clearaudio" src="lecture_clear_audio.mp4" label="Lecture clear-audio"></track>
19:11:25 [eric_carlson]: </video>
19:13:05 [silvia]: SP: you put the @kind on the wrong sign language track ;-)
19:13:20 [eric_carlson]: this time with fewer errors:
19:13:25 [eric_carlson]: <video id="v1" poster="lecture.png" controls>
19:13:26 [eric_carlson]:
19:13:26 [eric_carlson]: <source src="timeline.mp4" type="video/mp4">
19:13:26 [eric_carlson]:
19:13:27 [eric_carlson]: <track name="Lecture video" src="lecture_video.mp4" mode="enabled" label="Lecture video"></track>
19:13:27 [eric_carlson]: <track name="Lecture video" kind="signing" src="lecture_video_with_signing.mp4" label="Lecture video"></track>
19:13:29 [eric_carlson]:
19:13:31 [eric_carlson]: <track name="Lecture audio" src="lecture_audio.mp4" mode="enabled" label="Lecture audio"></track>
19:13:33 [eric_carlson]: <track name="Lecture audio" kind="clearaudio" src="lecture_clear_audio.mp4" label="Lecture clear-audio"></track>
19:13:36 [eric_carlson]: </video>
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20:24:40 [silvia]: SP: so we now have @kind=signings and @kind=clearaudio
20:24:57 [silvia]: SH: can we have free-text in @kind, too, or some sort of registry?
20:25:15 [silvia]: EC: we need a defined set so that the UAs can map from user preferences
20:27:37 [silvia]: SP: I'd prefer to keep a set of pre-defined ones and leave it open to extension, but without prescribing any formatting for the extensions
20:28:06 [silvia]: … it would be better if it works simply by convention rather than specification that, e.g. MS use ms-xxx as a new @kind value
20:28:41 [silvia]: JF: do we need to differentiate descriptions and extended descriptions
20:29:47 [silvia]: SH: we need a semantic replacement for pauseOnExit first before we can decide on this
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20:32:11 [silvia]: SP: let's move on from markup to rendering
20:32:47 [silvia]: SH: we haven't got a general rule of rendering text tracks either
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20:34:58 [silvia]: SP: I'd like to see us define it in a way that without any extra markup we get a sensible default rendering
20:35:55 [silvia]: SH: start the rendering at the top left corner and render all tracks from there
20:37:57 [frankolivier]: SP: I started thinking about this based on what people do today
20:38:02 [frankolivier]: SP: Three different ways
20:38:20 [frankolivier]: SP: One: Videos are rendered in a tiled fashion (css box model)
20:38:48 [frankolivier]: SP: They are arranged so that they are all visible
20:39:22 [frankolivier]: SH: Two: Have a big video, the other videos are on the side
20:39:38 [frankolivier]: SP: Three: Picture in picture
20:40:05 [frankolivier]: SP: Would be nice if UA by default could do one of three by default and user could switch to others
20:40:45 [frankolivier]: SH: I prefer option 1
20:41:18 [frankolivier]: SH: Problem with option one is that it relies on 'magic' CSS; you have to size the boxes so that they all stay visible
20:41:52 [frankolivier]: SH: Until you know how manby videos there are, you can't do the actual layout
20:42:16 [frankolivier]: SH: By default, if you put things into a flow layout, it will use the intrinsic height
20:43:06 [frankolivier]: SH: You would need a new css concept
20:43:18 [frankolivier]: EC: Another option would probably be best
20:43:54 [frankolivier]: SH: If we dont' say video is a viewport - but a containing box, then you would get a vertical list. This makes the most sense.
20:44:00 [frankolivier]: SH: We do hav eto have it not clipped
20:44:27 [frankolivier]: SH: Video shoudl not be a viewport, it should be a css containing box
20:45:46 [frankolivier]: Scribe correction: EC: We would not have these issues if we solved video a11y with multiple videos
20:47:01 [frankolivier]: SH: We should explore: A main video with another video (with no controls) as the a11y solution
20:47:14 [frankolivier]: SH: This does not give you the containing box design
20:47:27 [frankolivier]: EC: Page author now has to position video elements
20:47:32 [frankolivier]: EC: not a big burden
20:47:55 [RRSAgent]: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/03/20-media-minutes.html oedipus
20:49:29 [frankolivier]: EC: You're asking somebody to include an extra element, write css, to add logic, to make it look like it usually looks (picture in picture)
20:49:46 [frankolivier]: SP: You have to position them in the <track> idea as well?
20:50:02 [frankolivier]: EC: No, if you want it in top-left, you are done
20:50:13 [frankolivier]: EC: You could set the right and bottom
20:50:43 [oedipus]: i/SP: I started thinking about this based on what people do today/scribenick: frankolivier
20:50:49 [RRSAgent]: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/03/20-media-minutes.html oedipus
20:51:03 [frankolivier]: SP: One other difference: <track> concept has the idea of automatically creating a caption/subtitles menu
20:51:23 [frankolivier]: EC,SH: No, you connect the videos together, so this should not be an issue
20:52:07 [frankolivier]: EC: If you have a file as the main resource, slaved resourced, you could control the visibility with css, audio with mute
20:53:48 [frankolivier]: SH: <track> concept and two <video> concept are very similar
20:54:34 [frankolivier]: EC: All the stuff we invented last night (audio track interfaces, video track interfaces, text track interfaces) go away
20:55:10 [frankolivier]: SH: We take <track> out of video, it can be a child of any element
20:55:32 [frankolivier]: SP: I would not go that far
20:56:16 [frankolivier]: SH: <track> (like slave <video>) would key off of main video timeline
20:56:38 [frankolivier]: SH: Link audio, video, track to main video element
20:57:26 [frankolivier]: SH: You *could* make <track> link to an animated gif
20:58:32 [frankolivier]: SP: Mozilla likes this approach
20:59:41 [frankolivier]: SP: I would like to have this approach explored
20:59:57 [frankolivier]: SH: I am in favor of this approach
21:00:04 [frankolivier]: EC: Not decided yet
21:00:24 [frankolivier]: SP: We need to submit a proposal by Tuesday
21:00:33 [frankolivier]: SH: I think we should submit #10 in the wiki
21:00:56 [frankolivier]: SH: It is inventing more stuff than we might need, but it covers all use caes
21:01:22 [frankolivier]: EC: I want to have discussion now around the best approach
21:01:34 [frankolivier]: (SH needs to leave for airport)
21:01:57 [frankolivier]: EC: Does not want to settle for less functionality
21:04:57 [silvia]: FO: is there any example of an element in HTML5 where an element acts differently depending on whether it is related to something else?
21:05:05 [silvia]: EC: in SVG there is "use"
21:06:11 [JF]: EC: hesitate to pursue the idea of re-examination of the past day & half work
21:06:17 [silvia]: scribe: JF
21:06:31 [JF]: EC: discuss potential problems with the APIs on slave elements
21:06:49 [JF]: seeking on the thing that is slave is conceptually not a problem
21:07:30 [JF]: FO: you shold set the slave bit on the video element when you create it
21:07:58 [JF]: There sould be an attribute that indicates that from creation this is a slave element
21:08:11 [JF]: SF: This is what Option 6 does
21:08:19 [JF]: links to the id of the master video
21:08:28 [silvia]: http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/wiki/Media_Multitrack_Media_API#.286.29_Synchronize_separate_media_elements_through_attributes
21:09:18 [JF]: EC: Would we disallow seeking until media examples are available for all slave content?
21:09:41 [JF]: FO: agrees in principle
21:10:01 [JF]: EC: SO once it begins to load, it's the "and" of the seekable region
21:10:52 [JF]: FO: the master element must have all samples from master and slave before you draw a frame
21:11:29 [JF]: other option is "that's complex" so browser does best effort
21:12:24 [JF]: SP: if seperate elements gives more leaway
21:12:38 [JF]: FO: doing the "and" is significantly more difficult
21:13:16 [JF]: EC: this is a quality of service issue. goal is to have tighter sync than you can do with script
21:15:51 [JF]: EC: even if everything is in markup, we must accept that things get parsed in random order
21:16:25 [JF]: flow control all needs to happen on the master clock
21:16:28 [RRSAgent]: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/03/20-media-minutes.html oedipus
21:16:35 [JF]: that must happen no matter what
21:17:03 [JF]: allowing multiple controllers can be visually confusing, but won't really cause harm
21:18:14 [JF]: SF: do we disable controls on the slave element?
21:18:23 [JF]: EC: it is always controlling the clock of the master
21:19:02 [JF]: duration is a good question: what do you do when a slave is longer than master
21:19:04 [JF]: ?
21:19:57 [JF]: EC: one disadvantage/confusing - there is no mix-down valume control
21:20:25 [Zakim]: -Gregory_Rosmaita
21:21:06 [JF]: EC: volume control on tracks will need to be handled by script
21:22:36 [JF]: EC: we don't really need to worry about what happens if somebody shows multiple controls
21:22:47 [JF]: is not a useful use case
21:23:25 [silvia]: .. all interaction is forwarded through to the master
21:23:38 [silvia]: … script is required to set volume and mute/unmute
21:24:43 [janina]: janina has joined #media
21:25:01 [JF]: discussion whether to make track a top level element - not much appetitie
21:27:23 [JF]: EC: volume and mute on the master controls the mix-down
21:28:36 [JF]: SP: We've not talked about mode
21:28:45 [JF]: EC: We don't need that
21:28:54 [JF]: FO: inband i completely seperate
21:30:28 [JF]: EC: inband or container files on the web rarely contain more than 1 media file
21:31:15 [JF]: If you have a file with inband 1 audio nd 1 video, you can control both with one controls
21:33:50 [JF]: FO: would a track element have multiple sources?
21:35:09 [JF]: EC Source element is useful in 2 situations. 1 is for multiple encodings.
21:35:29 [JF]: leave source selection to mime-types
21:39:24 [JF]: @kind attribute on slave (audio and video element) is important
21:41:33 [JF]: rate and time apply to all of them
21:41:48 [JF]: anything that effects the clock
21:45:37 [JF]: (discussion around manifest files)
21:46:35 [JF]: EC: without a concrete usecase it's hard to define a solution
21:57:57 [JF]: want to be able to filter by attribute
22:11:06 [janina]: zakim, who's on the phone?
22:11:06 [Zakim]: On the phone I see FtF
22:11:17 [janina]: zakim, drop FtF
22:11:17 [Zakim]: FtF is being disconnected
22:11:18 [Zakim]: WAI_(A11YAF2F)11:30AM has ended
22:11:20 [Zakim]: Attendees were FtF, Gregory_Rosmaita
22:11:34 [janina]: zakim, bye
22:11:34 [Zakim]: Zakim has left #media
22:11:43 [janina]: rrsagent, make minutes
22:11:43 [RRSAgent]: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/03/20-media-minutes.html janina
01:14:17 [MichaelC]: MichaelC has joined #media
01:15:20 [MichaelC]: rrsagent, bye
01:15:20 [RRSAgent]: I see no action items