IRC log of html-a11y on 2011-03-20

Timestamps are in UTC.

15:55:18 [RRSAgent]
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logging to
15:55:20 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, make logs world
15:55:20 [Zakim]
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15:55:22 [trackbot]
Zakim, this will be 2119
15:55:22 [Zakim]
ok, trackbot; I see WAI_(A11YF2F)11:30AM scheduled to start 25 minutes ago
15:55:23 [trackbot]
Meeting: HTML Accessibility Task Force Teleconference
15:55:23 [trackbot]
Date: 20 March 2011
15:55:34 [MichaelC]
rrsagent, do not start a new log
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15:56:33 [MichaelC]
zakim, this is 2119
15:56:33 [Zakim]
ok, MichaelC; that matches WAI_(A11YF2F)11:30AM
15:56:42 [Sean_]
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15:57:52 [mkobayas]
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15:58:07 [MichaelC]
present: John_Foliot, Rich_Schwerdtfeger, Mike_Smith, Silvia_Pfeiffer, Eric_Carlson, Judy_Brewer, Mastaomo_Kobayashi, Janina_Sajka, Sean_Hayes, Frank_Olivier, Cynthia_Shelly, Michael_Cooper
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15:59:44 [MichaelC]
present+ Gregory_Rosmaita
15:59:50 [richardschwerdtfe]
you be on mute? Ha!
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16:04:29 [MikeSmith]
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16:04:40 [richardschwerdtfe]
scribe: Rich
16:05:34 [richardschwerdtfe]
Topic: Video Examples with TTS control of audio descriptions
16:05:47 [richardschwerdtfe]
First example: use ARIA live region
16:05:59 [MikeSmith]
RRSAgent, make minutes
16:05:59 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate MikeSmith
16:06:31 [MikeSmith]
RRSAgent, make logs public
16:07:21 [richardschwerdtfe]
Example renders extended description using TTS
16:08:11 [richardschwerdtfe]
mkobyyas: We can change the speed of the audio description
16:08:53 [MikeSmith]
16:09:11 [richardschwerdtfe]
mkobyyas: Can also use TTS server
16:09:31 [Zakim]
16:10:00 [richardschwerdtfe]
mkobyyas: Sends text to server and returns audio
16:10:28 [richardschwerdtfe]
eric: How do you synchronize this with the video?
16:10:32 [richardschwerdtfe]
mkobayas: time update
16:11:23 [MikeSmith]
16:12:32 [Zakim]
16:13:47 [richardschwerdtfe]
rich: Summary: Get text, send to server, get audio file, play it, wait for next timed text call
16:13:59 [MikeSmith]
16:14:06 [MikeSmith]
q+ richardschwerdtfe
16:14:17 [richardschwerdtfe]
sean: pause on exit seems like the wrong thing
16:15:00 [MikeSmith]
RRSAgent, make minutes
16:15:00 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate MikeSmith
16:15:33 [richardschwerdtfe]
eric: he is correct.
16:16:12 [richardschwerdtfe]
sylvia, can you show how it works?
16:16:47 [MikeSmith]
16:16:53 [MikeSmith]
ack richardschwerdtfe
16:17:55 [richardschwerdtfe]
Topic: Demo Sean Hays
16:18:20 [richardschwerdtfe]
16:19:19 [richardschwerdtfe]
Sean: I created a script called trakks.js
16:20:05 [richardschwerdtfe]
sean: I have three different tracks one for captions, two for descriptions
16:20:22 [richardschwerdtfe]
Sean: That make you allowed to do the track markup
16:20:47 [richardschwerdtfe]
Sean: the idea is that you can do other things. I have an Iframe pointing to the same TTML file that is styled as ...
16:21:00 [richardschwerdtfe]
Sean: I am actually using the track API
16:21:02 [janina]
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16:22:01 [Sean_]
16:22:17 [richardschwerdtfe]
sean: This demo is on Safari
16:22:36 [richardschwerdtfe]
sean: if I look at in FF or IE it looks the same
16:22:50 [richardschwerdtfe]
sean: there are 4 levels of navigation in the file
16:22:58 [richardschwerdtfe]
sean: if I drill down I can skip along ...
16:23:14 [richardschwerdtfe]
sean: so I can skip along at the various levels
16:23:25 [richardschwerdtfe]
sean: If I skip up a level then the section level changes
16:23:36 [richardschwerdtfe]
sean: So, that is doing navigation based on the XML file
16:23:45 [oedipus]
very nice tab navigation for the player with exposed text being spoken
16:23:50 [richardschwerdtfe]
sean: so this is TTML turning up as captions
16:23:56 [oedipus]
i'm testing with IE9
16:24:25 [richardschwerdtfe]
sean: I turn on audio descriptions. So, rather than generating the audio. ...
16:24:26 [oedipus]
hmm, can tab navigate the controls, but can't get them to activate
16:24:48 [richardschwerdtfe]
sean: so, this is using the caption file as captions as well as descriptions. It also points to the audio files
16:25:06 [richardschwerdtfe]
sean: the media tracks shows the signing
16:25:19 [richardschwerdtfe]
sean: the signing is a separate video file that is synched
16:25:35 [richardschwerdtfe]
sean: so I switched the source
16:25:44 [richardschwerdtfe]
silvia: so it is burned in
16:25:47 [richardschwerdtfe]
sean: yes
16:26:04 [richardschwerdtfe]
sean: the access to the pixels does not work on all the browsers
16:26:19 [richardschwerdtfe]
eric: do you support alpha in 2.64
16:26:25 [richardschwerdtfe]
frank: no
16:26:36 [MikeSmith]
16:26:37 [richardschwerdtfe]
eric: do you support ping - a compression format
16:26:41 [richardschwerdtfe]
frank: no
16:27:17 [richardschwerdtfe]
sean: new demo
16:27:29 [richardschwerdtfe]
sean: I can import an scc file
16:27:53 [richardschwerdtfe]
sean: now that I can support that fxp file ...
16:28:23 [richardschwerdtfe]
secan: In this one the fxp is transparent
16:28:29 [JF]
s/fxp / dfxp
16:28:36 [richardschwerdtfe]
16:28:56 [richardschwerdtfe]
silvia: how much of the dfxp have you implemented
16:29:06 [richardschwerdtfe]
sean: all of it except for the obscure timing stuff
16:29:44 [richardschwerdtfe]
sean: If I edit the .dfxp file ...
16:30:03 [richardschwerdtfe]
nobody speaking just now
16:30:11 [MikeSmith]
RRSAgent, make minutes
16:30:11 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate MikeSmith
16:30:18 [richardschwerdtfe]
sean: the styles in here map to CSS files
16:30:28 [richardschwerdtfe]
silvia: so you can also do bold and italic:
16:30:41 [richardschwerdtfe]
sean: yes. all of the classes get mapped to class Q
16:31:07 [richardschwerdtfe]
sean: you can overwrite them can't you
16:31:24 [richardschwerdtfe]
silvia: you implement to different regions - one for the speaker
16:31:56 [richardschwerdtfe]
sorry: sean: you implement to different regions - one for the speaker
16:32:14 [oedipus]
style sheet for sean's demo:
16:32:16 [richardschwerdtfe]
sean: so there the top region is separate from the bottom one.
16:32:32 [richardschwerdtfe]
sean: two different navigation regions. keyboard navigable
16:32:42 [richardschwerdtfe]
sean: I tested with NVDA and both get working.
16:33:02 [richardschwerdtfe]
sean: I tried aria-live but does not work across all browser
16:33:06 [oedipus]
can access UI with IE9, but can't play (to be expected, no?)
16:33:35 [richardschwerdtfe]
sean: If I were using the TTS engine you could simply send the text and generate the audio on the fly
16:34:07 [richardschwerdtfe]
sean: I did not find out about the bing translator until just now. I might have a go at that
16:34:24 [oedipus]
what is the bing translator?
16:34:41 [richardschwerdtfe]
converts text to audio (server based)
16:35:29 [oedipus]
found it:
16:35:29 [richardschwerdtfe]
sean: I will try to find a link to that
16:35:32 [richardschwerdtfe]
16:35:49 [richardschwerdtfe]
Demo: Silvia
16:36:05 [oedipus]
16:37:02 [richardschwerdtfe]
silvia: so this is a build of Chromium which is a build of webkit code
16:37:21 [richardschwerdtfe]
Topic: Silvia Demo on chromium
16:38:03 [richardschwerdtfe]
silvia: this is a build by one of the people in Google (not myself) doing text track on chromium
16:38:12 [richardschwerdtfe]
silvia: it is implemented in the browser
16:38:36 [richardschwerdtfe]
silvia: it's been built into the framework of how video works
16:39:25 [richardschwerdtfe]
eric: so what she has done is add a generic track element to webkit and a number of classes to read the data from the track to decode it. The whole thing is done in a very generic way and it is not a big deal to put in a generic parser
16:39:51 [richardschwerdtfe]
eric: it was done as a text track. Binaries would be more work. Basic plumbing is in webkit f4
16:39:56 [richardschwerdtfe]
16:40:12 [richardschwerdtfe]
eric: we just got code from the person doing this on Friday
16:40:25 [richardschwerdtfe]
eric: it is a simple matter of finishing this on Sarari
16:40:33 [richardschwerdtfe]
16:40:37 [MikeSmith]
16:40:43 [richardschwerdtfe]
silvia: there is a lot more to do
16:41:15 [richardschwerdtfe]
silvia: we are on the way and we are getting there. It fits with the other stuff in video. That basically states what we have designed so far can be implemented.
16:41:51 [MikeSmith]
RRSAgent, make minutes
16:41:51 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate MikeSmith
16:41:54 [richardschwerdtfe]
sean: the styling you had on that caption, where did that come from ... so you are not hooked up to the CSS
16:42:11 [richardschwerdtfe]
silvia: this is a very, very early pre-release thing but the first thing is done
16:42:19 [richardschwerdtfe]
mike: is the build available publicly
16:42:25 [richardschwerdtfe]
silvia: no
16:42:53 [richardschwerdtfe]
eric: I am working with her but she is a new webkit contributor. The plan is to get it into shape to get it into the tree
16:43:07 [richardschwerdtfe]
eric: the point is it will be in there to play around with
16:43:22 [richardschwerdtfe]
frank: what was the trickiest thing to implement so far?
16:43:26 [richardschwerdtfe]
eric: the architecture
16:43:48 [richardschwerdtfe]
silvia: one thing to note the styling ...
16:43:59 [richardschwerdtfe]
eric: it is done with an element in the shadow dom
16:44:18 [richardschwerdtfe]
frank: we are considering doing a similar thing
16:44:29 [richardschwerdtfe]
silvia: how do you do the controls?
16:44:34 [richardschwerdtfe]
frank: custom draw them
16:44:40 [richardschwerdtfe]
silvia: cool
16:45:05 [richardschwerdtfe]
eric: hooking this up to CSS is no work at all as it is in the shadow DOM. ... hours of work
16:46:13 [oedipus]
chair: Janina_Sajka, MikeSmith
16:46:22 [richardschwerdtfe]
eric: Since Webkit is open source. We have to get the architecture and the code submitted. I don't know how far off it is. It will take a week or so to get it all checked in. As it is an early draft it will take 3-5 weeks
16:46:39 [richardschwerdtfe]
silvia: I would say at least a month. soonish
16:46:44 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate oedipus
16:47:16 [richardschwerdtfe]
silvia: the spacial markup for WebVTT
16:47:33 [richardschwerdtfe]
silvia: deciding if to use generic HTML markup in queues
16:47:45 [richardschwerdtfe]
frank: we would like that. CSS ...
16:47:57 [richardschwerdtfe]
silvia: pseudo selector support to get to the shadow DOM
16:48:00 [MikeSmith]
16:48:20 [richardschwerdtfe]
Mike: running a little bit over. The next thing we want to do is do a review of yesterday's minutes
16:48:20 [MikeSmith]
16:48:28 [richardschwerdtfe]
Topic: review media minutes
16:48:44 [cyns]
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16:49:00 [richardschwerdtfe]
MichaelC: Review issue 147 and talk about drag and drop
16:49:07 [MikeSmith]
-> minutes of media subteam breakout from March 19
16:49:25 [richardschwerdtfe]
MichaelC: the minutes are by date
16:49:40 [richardschwerdtfe]
Mike: Issue 147
16:49:55 [richardschwerdtfe]
Topic: Issue 147
16:49:58 [MikeSmith]
16:50:13 [richardschwerdtfe]
Mike: this is the playback rate thing
16:50:17 [JF]
Issue 147
16:50:36 [richardschwerdtfe]
silvia: frank did you put that in ?
16:50:38 [richardschwerdtfe]
frank: yes
16:51:37 [richardschwerdtfe]
frank: It seems prudent that you know where you are in live streaming such as if you are behind. It also seems prudent to tell the author if there are issues with playing back at a certain rate.
16:52:00 [richardschwerdtfe]
frank: we want to have something that does not change and ship what we have today in the spec.
16:52:42 [richardschwerdtfe]
silvia: the playback rate tells you the rate it is playing back. If playing backwards it is negative. That is what playback rate does and you can adjust it in JavaScript
16:52:49 [MikeSmith]
16:53:06 [richardschwerdtfe]
eric: this is a javascript API. The text in the spec. says the user sets it and the browser plays it
16:53:47 [richardschwerdtfe]
mike: where we are at is we have a bug and Hixie says won't fix.
16:54:00 [richardschwerdtfe]
mike: we are going to adopt this unless someone introduces a counter proposal
16:54:19 [richardschwerdtfe]
silvia: it is overloaded as the browser can tell you what it has done.
16:54:30 [richardschwerdtfe]
silvia: I introduced a change proposal
16:54:47 [richardschwerdtfe]
mike: the next thing to do is put out a survey
16:55:07 [richardschwerdtfe]
mike: the bug triage team said this does not have any relation to accessiblity concerns
16:55:29 [richardschwerdtfe]
silvia: I would think Janina might be concerned about a playback rate
16:56:05 [richardschwerdtfe]
eric: the spec. tells you play at the rate the browser told to play
16:56:22 [richardschwerdtfe]
eric: Hixie says if the browser can't perform it sucks
16:56:57 [richardschwerdtfe]
janina: my mother who is not a native English speaker so she would want to see things slown down
16:57:10 [richardschwerdtfe]
sean: it is a mainstream thing too
16:57:27 [richardschwerdtfe]
silvia: Ian regards the playback rate as a vehicle to tell the browser what to do
16:58:05 [richardschwerdtfe]
silvia: he thinks the browser's ability to convey what it was able to do would be good.
16:58:13 [MikeSmith]
16:58:18 [richardschwerdtfe]
silvia: Ian wants to see the reporting
16:58:51 [richardschwerdtfe]
silvia: Hixie did not like my proposal
16:59:22 [richardschwerdtfe]
silvia: there is a whole discussion on statistics but there is no concrete proposal on the table yet and I would like to pull what was said together
16:59:36 [richardschwerdtfe]
silvia: Hixie wants us to assemble all the statistics
16:59:54 [richardschwerdtfe]
eric: Phillip said adding an attribute for the actual rate is insufficient
17:00:23 [richardschwerdtfe]
eric: what is implemented in Webkit is a script that tells us to change the rate and a signal is generated when the rate has changec
17:00:40 [richardschwerdtfe]
eric: leave it the way it is
17:01:08 [richardschwerdtfe]
mike: from the task forces perspective we need to decide to whether to endorse a specific proposal
17:01:15 [richardschwerdtfe]
janina: we should discuss at the next telecon
17:01:18 [Sean_]
link to Bing translator
17:01:26 [richardschwerdtfe]
thanks Sean
17:01:47 [MikeSmith]
action: Michael(tm) to add an agenda item for next week's telcon for discussion of issue 147
17:01:47 [trackbot]
Sorry, couldn't find user - Michael(tm)
17:01:58 [MikeSmith]
action: Mike to add an agenda item for next week's telcon for discussion of issue 147
17:01:59 [trackbot]
Could not create new action (failed to parse response from server) - please contact sysreq with the details of what happened.
17:01:59 [trackbot]
Could not create new action (unparseable data in server response: local variable 'd' referenced before assignment) - please contact sysreq with the details of what happened.
17:02:33 [richardschwerdtfe]
Mike: we wanted to do summaries of yesterdays discussions
17:02:40 [MikeSmith]
17:02:57 [richardschwerdtfe]
Mike: we talked about text alternatives a bit
17:03:16 [richardschwerdtfe]
Mike: Laura is not in complete agreement with those in the task force
17:03:59 [richardschwerdtfe]
Mike: Cynthia did you have the discussion on text alternatives
17:04:24 [richardschwerdtfe]
Cynthia: Steve was supposed to send a draft last night but I did not get one
17:04:48 [richardschwerdtfe]
Mike: We saw an Opera plug-in that makes longdesc discoverable
17:05:06 [richardschwerdtfe]
John: there was a jquery plug-in
17:05:11 [oedipus]
17:05:12 [richardschwerdtfe]
Mike: that is new info
17:05:29 [richardschwerdtfe]
Mike: you took an action item to fold that into the change proposal
17:05:37 [oedipus]
17:06:06 [richardschwerdtfe]
John: Steve Faulkner also provided draft text
17:06:15 [JF]
17:06:30 [oedipus]
HTML WG Bug 10853: HTML5 lacks a verbose description mechanism
17:07:09 [richardschwerdtfe]
mike: the summary on longdesc is we made some progress on long desc. and we got wider support of retaining longdesc
17:07:33 [richardschwerdtfe]
Mike: ARIA lexical processing
17:08:16 [oedipus]
17:08:23 [oedipus]
17:08:27 [MikeSmith]
richardschwerdtfe: we need a means to detect clickable regions…
17:08:35 [eric_carlson]
eric_carlson has joined #html-a11y
17:08:40 [MikeSmith]
… so that authors can assign events to regions
17:08:41 [oedipus]
17:08:48 [MikeSmith]
… gives you the bounding rectangle
17:08:59 [MikeSmith]
… satisfies an authoring need
17:09:07 [MikeSmith]
… ties input back to the actual DOM
17:09:59 [MikeSmith]
17:09:59 [richardschwerdtfe]
Mike: The last open issues
17:10:01 [oedipus]
17:10:31 [richardschwerdtfe]
MikeSmith: we are good to go on the relevant accessibility issues
17:10:48 [richardschwerdtfe]
MikeSmith: We will talk about drag and drop
17:10:54 [oedipus]
17:11:05 [richardschwerdtfe]
MikeSmith: summaries?
17:11:10 [MikeSmith]
17:11:21 [richardschwerdtfe]
silvia: need Mark Watson but is not around
17:11:33 [oedipus]
q+ don't we still have a LOT of outstanding issues with TABLE markup and algorithms (what wendy was working on)
17:11:42 [oedipus]
q+ to say we still have a LOT of outstanding issues with TABLE markup and algorithms (what wendy was working on)
17:11:44 [richardschwerdtfe]
silvia: don't think they know how to dial in
17:12:15 [oedipus]
17:12:57 [richardschwerdtfe]
silvia: As a summary we started out with the use cases (3). In band tracks
17:13:12 [richardschwerdtfe]
silvia: One resource mentioned int the source attribute of the video element
17:13:31 [richardschwerdtfe]
silivia: we have external tracks as slaves to the main track
17:13:49 [richardschwerdtfe]
silivia: we have equivalent video elements that are synchronized
17:14:27 [richardschwerdtfe]
silvia: we need support for the second one with the slaved timeline. This will be very important for sign languages video and audio descriptions
17:14:40 [richardschwerdtfe]
silvia: that was the key agreement on which we based the design work
17:14:46 [silvia]
17:15:01 [richardschwerdtfe]
silivia: this is option 10 on our wiki page
17:15:10 [Sean]
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17:15:18 [richardschwerdtfe]
silvia: we focused on our first use case - inband tracks
17:15:47 [richardschwerdtfe]
silvia: on our agenda we are a little bit behind but we are making good progress
17:15:50 [silvia]
17:16:09 [richardschwerdtfe]
silvia: we just did the JavaScript API. We don't believe that needs more work
17:16:18 [richardschwerdtfe]
silvia: we need to look into rendering and CSS
17:16:36 [richardschwerdtfe]
silvia: I think we can finish this today but not far beyond that
17:16:40 [oedipus]
ack oe
17:16:40 [Zakim]
oedipus, you wanted to say we still have a LOT of outstanding issues with TABLE markup and algorithms (what wendy was working on)
17:16:50 [oedipus]
we should, at least, review/re-assign outstanding TABLE issues while we are in plenary session -- i have summary as element
17:16:59 [richardschwerdtfe]
gregory: we have issues with table that have not been addressed in months
17:17:13 [richardschwerdtfe]
gregory: we should review or reassign these issues
17:17:19 [MikeSmith]
17:17:49 [richardschwerdtfe]
cynthia: we had not decided to address this as last call
17:17:52 [JF]
17:18:28 [MikeSmith]
ack JF
17:18:31 [richardschwerdtfe]
janina: we have summary and longdesc to come back to.
17:18:50 [richardschwerdtfe]
JF: there was a resolution to keep as HTML 4
17:19:02 [MikeSmith]
17:19:06 [JF]
17:19:11 [richardschwerdtfe]
MikeSmith: I had a question about the track element
17:19:16 [oedipus]
17:19:44 [silvia]
oedipus, thanks!
17:19:54 [richardschwerdtfe]
MikeSmith: Hixie's position is to limit eternal timed text formats but others are not satisfied with that. Hixie will need to be flexible
17:20:01 [richardschwerdtfe]
eric: we will have a proposal tomorrow
17:20:07 [richardschwerdtfe]
silvia: yes
17:20:12 [MikeSmith]
17:21:32 [richardschwerdtfe]
Mike: what do you need form Mark Watson?
17:21:48 [richardschwerdtfe]
eric: I don't think he will have an issue but Mozilla might
17:22:08 [richardschwerdtfe]
eric: Mozilla may supply a separate change proposal
17:22:20 [richardschwerdtfe]
Silvia: Ian will supply a change proposal
17:22:37 [richardschwerdtfe]
silvia: we may get another 3 change proposals by Tuesday
17:22:42 [richardschwerdtfe]
eric: it is a very complex issue
17:22:53 [richardschwerdtfe]
silvia: it needs a lot more discussion
17:23:09 [richardschwerdtfe]
MikeSmith: we just need to get things submitted on time
17:23:25 [oedipus]
17:23:30 [richardschwerdtfe]
MikeSmith: Status on drag and drop
17:24:08 [oedipus]
i/MikeSmith: Status on drag and drop/TOPIC: Drag and Drop in HTML5/
17:24:25 [richardschwerdtfe]
MikeSmith: the deal with drag and drop is it has been kind of an open discussion. However Hixie made significant changes to the spec. by introducing a dropzone
17:24:26 [MikeSmith]
17:24:49 [oedipus]
17:24:55 [richardschwerdtfe]
MikeSmith: Gez reviewed but the issue of keyboard accessibility is resolved.
17:25:04 [oedipus]
17:25:49 [richardschwerdtfe]
MikeSmith: Rich wants to view conflicts with ARIA.
17:26:13 [richardschwerdtfe]
Rich: I will reopen after a review
17:26:27 [oedipus]
"All HTML elements may have the dropzone content attribute set. When specified, its value must be an unordered set of unique space-separated tokens that are ASCII case-insensitive. The allowed values are the following:"
17:26:29 [oedipus]
"copy: Indicates that dropping an accepted item on the element will result in a copy of the dragged data."
17:26:30 [oedipus]
"move: Indicates that dropping an accepted item on the element will result in the dragged data being moved to the new location."
17:26:32 [oedipus]
"link: Indicates that dropping an accepted item on the element will result in a link to the original data
17:26:51 [richardschwerdtfe]
MikeSmith: we had a break scheduled at 10:30
17:26:58 [MikeSmith]
17:27:43 [richardschwerdtfe]
Judy: I think it was back at 10:03 your time I saw Rich Schwerdtfeger minute that Laura was not in full agreement with the task force discussion on the taskforce discussion on longdesc
17:28:05 [richardschwerdtfe]
Judy: it looks like she further tweeked her proposal on longdesc.
17:28:52 [MikeSmith]
17:29:31 [richardschwerdtfe]
Mike: I think it is fair to say the position she has taken on the change proposals is such that the issue is relative to text alternatives
17:29:43 [richardschwerdtfe]
Juday: In looking back I see that. ok
17:29:52 [richardschwerdtfe]
17:30:05 [richardschwerdtfe]
Janina: she created change proposals for other people's positions
17:30:23 [richardschwerdtfe]
Janina: it may be attributed to other items such as longdesc
17:30:34 [oedipus]
Issue 122 change proposal drafted by GJR in fulfillment of an action item assigned at HTML WG F2F at TPAC 2010:
17:30:36 [richardschwerdtfe]
MikeSmith: it would be good to get Laura on a phone call
17:30:48 [richardschwerdtfe]
Judy: has a personal issue she needs to address
17:31:13 [oedipus]
GJR has action from TF yesterday to reply to survey on ISSUE 122 on behalf of TF -- circulated proposed comment to facillitators and staff
17:31:13 [richardschwerdtfe]
Judy: I am also trying to get more coordination. So, probably won't happen this weekend
17:31:30 [richardschwerdtfe]
MikeSmith: I think we can get the issue addressed very quickly if addressed in real time
17:31:53 [MikeSmith]
RRSAgent, make minutes
17:31:53 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate MikeSmith
17:32:01 [MikeSmith]
big thanks to Rich for scribing
17:32:03 [Zakim]
17:32:15 [Zakim]
17:32:31 [judy]
s/personal issue she needs to address/family issue at the moment/
17:34:52 [judy]
s/the taskforce discussion on longdesc/the taskforce discussion on longdesc, but in the communication i saw, she said it looked like the group made good progress.
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I have made the request to generate oedipus
17:49:28 [Zakim]
WAI_(A11YF2F)11:30AM has ended
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Attendees were Judy, Gregory_Rosmaita
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WAI_(A11YF2F)11:30AM has now started
17:58:34 [Zakim]
17:58:40 [MichaelC]
zakim, ??P0 is FtF
17:58:40 [Zakim]
+FtF; got it
17:59:08 [Zakim]
17:59:47 [MikeSmith]
18:00:17 [oedipus]
TOPIC: ARIA Integration
18:00:26 [MikeSmith]
scribe: MikeSmith
18:00:51 [cyns]
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18:00:52 [MikeSmith]
richardschwerdtfe: as far as I know, about ARIA integration, we are waiting for the edits
18:01:17 [MikeSmith]
MichaelC: we wanted to talk about the mapping document
18:01:26 [MikeSmith]
cyns: we need more people helping on this
18:01:33 [MichaelC]
-> HTML API mapping document
18:01:40 [MikeSmith]
richardschwerdtfe: yeah
18:01:55 [MikeSmith]
Steve: I have started to work on it again
18:02:42 [MikeSmith]
Steve: two big tables in this doc
18:03:04 [MikeSmith]
… pretty much done, but so far with input only for a couple people
18:03:17 [MikeSmith]
… so it obviously needs scrutiny
18:03:26 [oedipus]
18:03:31 [oedipus]
18:03:43 [MikeSmith]
cyns: when I generated the original table, I did it based on looking at existing browsers
18:03:52 [MikeSmith]
RRSAgent, make minutes
18:03:52 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate MikeSmith
18:03:59 [MikeSmith]
richardschwerdtfe: do you have events in here?
18:04:12 [janina]
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18:04:37 [oedipus]
note: there is a relatively new version of IA2 at
18:05:07 [MikeSmith]
RRSAgent, make minutes
18:05:07 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate MikeSmith
18:05:51 [MikeSmith]
Steve: I looked at placeholder, and how it's being mapped
18:06:08 [janina_lurker]
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18:06:36 [janina_lurker]
zakim, who's on the phone?
18:06:36 [Zakim]
On the phone I see FtF, Gregory_Rosmaita
18:06:45 [MikeSmith]
… looking at how the accessible name is handled
18:07:29 [MikeSmith]
Steve: there are differences between how Firefox and Webkit implement this
18:08:26 [MikeSmith]
Steve: the way that placeholder vs title is handled in some browsers does not seem right
18:08:37 [oedipus]
18:08:52 [MikeSmith]
cyns: I'm not sure that wrapping it around is per spec
18:09:02 [MikeSmith]
MichaelC: it is, though not recommended
18:10:13 [MikeSmith]
cyns: there are a lot of cases where people don't put labels on selects
18:11:14 [MikeSmith]
Steve: there is a need for this document, because browsers are not handling it interoperably
18:11:23 [MikeSmith]
18:11:44 [MikeSmith]
Steve: I've been talking with Alex Sirkov
18:12:03 [MikeSmith]
… and he has claimed that the FF is right per the ARIA name calculations
18:12:16 [MikeSmith]
MichaelC: it does include some HTML rules, but…
18:12:30 [MikeSmith]
cyns: it says, "title always loses"
18:12:33 [oedipus]
18:12:48 [MikeSmith]
MichaelC: and placeholder is not in the ARIA spec, because we were working from HTML4
18:14:24 [oedipus]
18:15:00 [MikeSmith]
Steve: you can see that there are still lots of TODOs in this document still
18:15:28 [MikeSmith]
… you can see I started to work on the description of how to handle the summary and details elements
18:15:50 [MikeSmith]
cyns: we need to finish the ARIA implementors' guide
18:16:02 [MikeSmith]
… discuss with David Bolter, others
18:16:34 [MikeSmith]
Steve: the idea is to get some stuff into the document even if it's not all been agreed on yet, so that we have something to start with
18:16:37 [oedipus]
18:17:17 [MikeSmith]
Steve: e.g., the summary element should be a button element
18:17:29 [MikeSmith]
s/button element/button role/
18:17:58 [MikeSmith]
Steve: details and summary are being implemented now
18:18:07 [MikeSmith]
… Chrome has an implementation
18:18:17 [MikeSmith]
… and there are JS implementations of this
18:19:03 [MikeSmith]
… one thing we need to look at is, it seems more logical to have the open/closed state on on the actual summary
18:19:17 [MikeSmith]
cyns: but buttons don't have that
18:19:49 [MikeSmith]
Steve: all of the action occurs on the disclosure widget itself
18:20:04 [MikeSmith]
cyns: do you have range and menu and command?
18:20:21 [MikeSmith]
Steve: feel free to edit :)
18:20:32 [MikeSmith]
cyns: I need to get my CVS access working
18:20:42 [MikeSmith]
MikeSmith: I can help with that at lunchtime
18:21:04 [MikeSmith]
RRSAgent, make minutes
18:21:04 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate MikeSmith
18:21:44 [MikeSmith]
Steve: do we need a role=video?
18:21:54 [MikeSmith]
cyns: could just do it as a landmark
18:22:03 [MikeSmith]
richardschwerdtfe: do you have a control pattern?
18:22:07 [oedipus]
role=video makes sense, and has precedent: role=math
18:22:15 [MikeSmith]
cyns: don't think we have one in UAG yet
18:24:41 [MikeSmith]
cyns: I think it could be confusing for people if we end up duplicating information from the ARIA implementor's guide?
18:24:55 [MikeSmith]
Steve: maybe we should have an ARIA+HTML guide
18:25:21 [MikeSmith]
cyns: actually, we went to a lot of trouble to make the ARIA implementor's guide to be language-agnostic
18:25:37 [MikeSmith]
cyns: we need to tread carefully to avoid redundancy
18:26:06 [MikeSmith]
cyns: great work on this so far, Steven
18:26:17 [oedipus]
plus one: great work SteveF
18:26:28 [MikeSmith]
richardschwerdtfe: yeah, and we still need to address canvas handling
18:27:21 [MikeSmith]
Steve: yeah, there is obviously overlap, and we need to resolve that
18:27:37 [MikeSmith]
richardschwerdtfe: PF really needs to review UAG
18:27:41 [oedipus]
18:28:00 [oedipus]
cyns, do you want the UAWG to review
18:28:09 [MikeSmith]
cyns: sorry, yeah, I'm talking about the ARIA implementation guide
18:29:48 [oedipus]
ARIA comments have public view and all of the ARIA editors' drafts are public
18:48:40 [cyns]
scribe: cyns
18:48:45 [cyns]
topic: keyboard access
18:48:54 [cyns]
cyns: what about keyboard access?
18:49:15 [oedipus]
having infrastructural problems please standby
18:49:25 [oedipus]
18:50:12 [oedipus]
how is user to decide what accesskeys to use: status: the HTML Accessibility Task Force needs to review the following quotes from the 18 March 2011 Editor's Draft which follow to ensure that this bug has been adequately addressed; of pariticular concern is that there is no stipulation that when a UA or user chooses a set of accesskeys, that...
18:50:14 [oedipus]
...that set of accesskeys will be uniformly applied (no mixing of accesskey strings: once a set of accesskeys is chosen, the user agent must them limit the accesskey values to those that match the position of the initially chosen accesskey)
18:51:09 [cyns]
GR: bug 10775. you can have a space-delimited list of accesskeys. how can user figure out what to use.
18:51:20 [cyns]
GR: my proposal was to make that a cascade.
18:51:59 [cyns]
GR: what's currently in the spec is examples that use multiple access keys. There's nothing in the spec that says which to use
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18:53:15 [cyns]
GR: Say I have a search field. accesskey="S 0". you can get that accesskey by typing alt+S or alt+0, but if you have each accesskey assigned more than one value, that you have a cascade.
18:53:56 [cyns]
GR: so if you have S used somewhere else, it would fall back to 0. Otherwise, you can only use S, not both
18:54:09 [cyns]
GR: how do you get to that second key of accesskeys.
18:54:47 [cyns]
MS: Ian says that you don't expose those to users. UA makes the selection, and only exposes the selected key to the user. multiple values are not exposed to the user.
18:55:17 [cyns]
GR: i have an inherent distrust of UA chosing for me. I want to choose if I want to use alpha or other user accesskeys
18:55:51 [cyns]
MS: so bug should say that if there are multiple accekeys exposed to the user, so the user can choose. The current spec assumes that's not something users need. Need to provide a use case.
18:56:45 [cyns]
MS: looking at the status on this, hixie moved it to rejected, but you commented, then hixie made a spec change, to add informative text to give an explaination and posted a dif, bug triage said in January that the change addressed the original issue.
18:57:00 [cyns]
MS: if that's not the case, you need to re-open the bug or make a new one.
18:57:01 [cyns]
18:57:07 [cyns]
GR: I guess I do.
18:57:43 [cyns]
MS: new bug should challenge assumption in the spec that users don't need to have the full list of accesskeys exposed to the user.
18:58:13 [cyns]
GR: discoverability is a problem. author proposes user disposes.
18:58:23 [cyns]
MS: create a use case.
18:58:55 [cyns]
GR: what hixie wrote is very nebulous. UA will decide what to do based on capabilities of device.
18:59:56 [cyns]
GR: UA might pic numberic keyboard on a phone or alpha on a full keyboard. User should be able choose.
19:00:21 [cyns]
CS: would configurability be enough? could make for very complex UI
19:00:40 [cyns]
GR: how many accesskeys are likely?
19:00:50 [cyns]
MS: this is a problem in earlier versions of HTML
19:01:04 [cyns]
MS: previous spec for accesskey only allowed one value, right?
19:01:06 [cyns]
GR: right
19:01:24 [cyns]
MS: there were other ways, such as through scripting
19:02:00 [cyns]
CS: sort of. not declaratively
19:02:16 [cyns]
MS: previous spec was less precise on what UA behavior should be.
19:02:45 [cyns]
GR: right. so if we're paving the cow path, let's do a good job. make sure that it's discoverable.
19:03:24 [cyns]
MS: frame the discusision instead as... great, now we have a standard way to define multiple access keys, and now we need to refine that for the case where someone might want to choose which key
19:03:54 [cyns]
MS: better to close this bug, and create a new one that refines the behavior
19:04:03 [MikeSmith]
RRSAgent, make minutes
19:04:03 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate MikeSmith
19:04:09 [cyns]
RS: is teh behaivor on a non-alpha keybaord defined?
19:04:14 [cyns]
CS: yes.
19:04:25 [cyns]
RS: so waht is that you are looking for?
19:04:53 [cyns]
GR: user should be able to choose whether they want the first token for every value, second token, etc.
19:05:31 [cyns]
MS: this is a bigger issue, or needs to be framed differently. describe the use case and go from there. you don't have anything in the use case. need to explain why the user wants to do this
19:05:34 [cyns]
GR: ok
19:06:02 [oedipus]
HTML WG Bug 10773 - accesskey should chosen from document's declared charset marked RESOLVED WONTFIX status: the HTML A11y TF must decide if this is an important point of clarification; this reviewer thinks it is and needs to be added to the current text
19:08:06 [cyns]
GR: accesskey should be chosen from documents declared character set. for example, if I'm using a doc that's english, I shouldn't have a character that's not english
19:08:17 [cyns]
CS: aren't most web pages UTF-8 now?
19:08:30 [cyns]
MS: no, lots of Japanese and Korean are not
19:08:43 [cyns]
MS: TF bug team thought Ian's fix was ok
19:08:47 [cyns]
GR: don't agree
19:09:05 [cyns]
MS: write an email to TF to discuss, put on telecon agenda.
19:09:24 [cyns]
GR: I will prepare 2-3 a week to work thoruhg
19:09:59 [cyns]
MC: TF bug team may have said that because we thought the whole team doesn't need to be invovled. Gregory can do it himslef.
19:10:10 [cyns]
MS: Need use cases.
19:10:48 [cyns]
GR: I will bring them to task force, and they can decide if we will address it or if Gregory should do it on his own.
19:11:02 [cyns]
MS: TF may need to work on that. Bring use cases, and what should change.
19:12:30 [cyns]
breaking for lunch
19:14:06 [Zakim]
19:19:37 [Zakim]
19:19:38 [Zakim]
WAI_(A11YF2F)11:30AM has ended
19:19:40 [Zakim]
Attendees were FtF, Gregory_Rosmaita
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19:58:19 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate oedipus
20:19:17 [oedipus]
ok, thaniks
20:19:37 [MikeSmith]
janina_lurker: big thanks to Microsoft and to Cynthia in particular for sponsoring the meeting
20:19:43 [MikeSmith]
RRSAgent, make minutes
20:19:43 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate MikeSmith
20:20:08 [MikeSmith]
the non-media breakout folks are now adjourned
20:20:15 [MichaelC]
s/ok, thaniks//
20:20:35 [MikeSmith]
RRSAgent, make minutes
20:20:35 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate MikeSmith
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21:10:04 [RRSAgent]
I see 2 open action items saved in :
21:10:04 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: Michael(tm) to add an agenda item for next week's telcon for discussion of issue 147 [1]
21:10:04 [RRSAgent]
recorded in
21:10:04 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: Mike to add an agenda item for next week's telcon for discussion of issue 147 [2]
21:10:04 [RRSAgent]
recorded in