18:30:19 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #svg
18:30:19 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2011/03/16-svg-irc
18:30:21 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs public
18:30:21 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #svg
18:30:23 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be GA_SVGWG
18:30:23 <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see GA_SVGWG(SVG1)2:30PM scheduled to start now
18:30:24 <trackbot> Meeting: SVG Working Group Teleconference
18:30:24 <trackbot> Date: 16 March 2011
18:32:11 <Zakim> GA_SVGWG(SVG1)2:30PM has now started
18:32:16 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
18:32:23 <ed> Zakim, [IP is me
18:32:23 <Zakim> +ed; got it
18:35:12 <ed> Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-svg-wg/2011JanMar/0250.html
18:35:53 <ChrisL> ChrisL has joined #svg
18:36:27 <Zakim> +??P1
18:36:31 <heycam> Zakim, ??P1 is me
18:36:31 <Zakim> +heycam; got it
18:36:48 <heycam> Zakim, mute me
18:36:48 <Zakim> heycam should now be muted
18:37:00 <heycam> Zakim, who is on the call?
18:37:00 <Zakim> On the phone I see ed, heycam (muted)
18:37:12 <Zakim> + +39.524.9.aaaa
18:37:28 <ChrisL> zakim, aaaa is me
18:37:28 <Zakim> +ChrisL; got it
18:37:42 <heycam> Zakim, unmute me
18:37:42 <Zakim> heycam should no longer be muted
18:38:02 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
18:38:13 <anthony> zakim, [IP is me
18:38:13 <Zakim> +anthony; got it
18:43:59 <Zakim> + +39.537.7.aabb
18:46:27 <ChrisL> http://www.w3.org/TR/2011/WD-SVGCompositing-20110315/
18:46:39 <ed> Zakim, +39 is tav
18:46:39 <Zakim> +tav; got it
18:47:11 <anthony> Scribe: anthony
18:47:17 <heycam> Chair: Cameron
18:47:17 <anthony> Scribenick: anthony
18:47:28 <anthony> Topic: Telcon Time
18:47:31 <heycam> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/w3c-svg-wg/2011JanMar/0028.html
18:47:45 <anthony> CM: US have already moved to daylight saving time
18:47:51 <anthony> ... Europe is moving soon
18:47:59 <anthony> ... AUS and NZ change on the 6th April
18:48:13 <anthony> ... we should see what time is suitable for everyone once those changes have been made
18:48:23 <anthony> CL: What time will the call be once the changes have been made?
18:48:39 <anthony> CM: In AUS and NZ it will be 4:30am
18:49:15 <anthony> ... In the email there you can see what the times will be after April 6th if the time doesn't change
18:49:45 <anthony> ... I'm assuming the current time is not suitable
18:49:56 <anthony> ... We should see if we can shift the time by a few hours
18:50:05 <anthony> CL: I have a call after this one which is the WOFF call
18:50:13 <anthony> ... so I will have a conflict
18:50:35 <anthony> ... this call is 8:30 - 10:00 then WOFF is 10:00 - 11:00
18:50:47 <ChrisL> (all the above times pm)
18:50:48 <anthony> ... so a call after WOFF would be late for me
18:51:08 <anthony> TB: After 11:00PM would be too late for me as well
18:52:29 <anthony> CL: I propose we keep this current time leading up to April 6th. So on March 30th when Europe changes 
18:52:36 <anthony> ... they will go back to the original telecon time
18:52:54 <anthony> s/CL:/CM:/
18:54:03 <heycam> http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/wiki/Full_11#Remaining_work_for_SVG1.1F2
18:54:04 <anthony> AG: Once we decide on a new telcon time it will kick in once we've all changed to our respective daylight savings times?
18:54:07 <anthony> CM: Yes
18:54:15 <anthony> Topic: SVG Full 1.1 2nd Edition
18:54:20 <anthony> CM: I've updated that page
18:54:34 <anthony> ... We haven't had any progress on these things since the F2F
18:54:48 <anthony> ... just wanted to make sure everyone is on the same page about things left to do
18:55:11 <anthony> CL: Sorry haven't finished my Action I need to do
18:55:29 <anthony> ... regarding ACTION-2910
18:55:59 <anthony> CM: That's for the spec text
18:56:02 <heycam> http://dev.w3.org/SVG/profiles/1.1F2/test/status/implementation_matrix.html
18:56:04 <anthony> ... and for the test suite
18:56:14 <anthony> CL: There is one test that it has a problem converting
18:56:29 <anthony> ... I'm not sure how to convert that in FontForge
18:56:45 <anthony> ... I'll ask someone in the Fonts Working Group on how it's done
18:57:35 <heycam> http://dev.w3.org/SVG/profiles/1.1F2/test/harness/htmlObjectMiniApproved/fonts-desc-04-t.html
18:58:18 <anthony> CM: Let me see if this one already has a WOFF
18:58:25 <anthony> ... so we should wait for the WOFF variant
18:58:39 <anthony> ED: Ok
18:59:54 <anthony> CM: So looking at the implementation matrix
19:00:04 <anthony> ... it lists 6 testes there as not having 2 passes
19:00:25 <anthony> ... 2 of them we have decided it was ok, because there are implementations for it on the way
19:01:20 <anthony> ... 1 of the tests is waiting for a patch in FireFox
19:01:29 <anthony> ... and another is being implemented by Abbra
19:01:39 <ed> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-svg/2011Mar/0064.html
19:02:03 <anthony> ED: I made changes to two of the font-text tests
19:02:08 <anthony> ... based on some feedbcak
19:02:16 <ed> http://dev.w3.org/SVG/profiles/1.1F2/test/harness/htmlObject/text-intro-02-b.html
19:02:21 <anthony> ... it may affect how implementations pass those
19:02:27 <ed> http://dev.w3.org/SVG/profiles/1.1F2/test/harness/htmlObject/text-intro-09-b.html
19:02:30 <anthony> ... it affects the positioning text anchor
19:02:39 <anthony> ... and both of those should pass in Opera 11.10 release
19:02:57 <anthony> CM: I'm looking at text-intro-02 now
19:03:12 <anthony> ... I think we get incorrect behaviour
19:03:20 <anthony> ... can you say what the change was?
19:03:33 <anthony> ED: Change was to make the last line have a specific text anchor
19:03:59 <anthony> CM: There is no auto value?
19:04:05 <anthony> ED: Initial value is "start"
19:04:39 <anthony> ... There was some confusion whether direction should affect the text when set to "normal"
19:05:20 <ed> s/when set to "normal"/when unicode-bidi is set to "normal"/
19:05:55 <ChrisL> I willretest text-intro-02  and 09 in abbra
19:06:35 <ed> http://dev.w3.org/SVG/profiles/1.1F2/publish/text.html#TextAnchorProperty
19:06:40 <anthony> CM: Why isn't that text-anchor="end" is considered to be the left of the point of the text line when going "rtl"?
19:07:09 <ChrisL> abbra still fails -02
19:08:05 <anthony> ... ok, I'm happy with that
19:08:20 <anthony> CL: I just tried that in Abbra
19:08:39 <anthony> ... it fails, I don't think it implements bidi override
19:08:39 <ChrisL> think bidi-override is not implemented perhaps
19:09:31 <anthony> ED: The reasoning behind the changes, was based on the i18n groups feedback
19:09:54 <anthony> ... so I made the tests so that they specify the direction and not have it based off the initial character
19:10:04 <anthony> ... I think that's what Webkit does as well
19:11:02 <anthony> CM: This is not an issue with regular HTML? With normal HTML or SVG what effect does the direction property have?
19:11:20 <anthony> ED: For "middle" I don't think it makes too much of a difference
19:11:48 <anthony> ... I don't think it makes any change to word order or special substitutions. It just aligns the text fragment
19:12:08 <anthony> CM: So in CSS 2, from their definition. It effects which side of the box it overflows out of.
19:12:22 <anthony> ... if it's Justified text it effects which direction the last line goes
19:12:35 <anthony> ... I guess it makes sense that the last line doesn't apply to us
19:13:02 <anthony> ACTION: Cameron to Retest text-intro-02 and text-intro-09 in FireFox and Webkit and report back
19:13:02 <trackbot> Created ACTION-3010 - Retest text-intro-02 and text-intro-09 in FireFox and Webkit and report back [on Cameron McCormack - due 2011-03-23].
19:13:50 <heycam> Zakim, who is on the call?
19:13:50 <Zakim> On the phone I see ed, heycam, ChrisL, anthony, tav (muted)
19:14:14 <anthony> Topic: Compositing Publication
19:14:26 <anthony> CL: It has been published!
19:14:30 <anthony> AG: Yay! :D
19:15:04 <heycam> http://www.w3.org/TR/2011/WD-SVGCompositing-20110315/
19:15:20 <ChrisL> http://www.w3.org/TR/2011/WD-SVGCompositing-20110315/
19:15:27 <anthony> CM: We have LC period for 4 weeks?
19:15:43 <anthony> CL: Yes, usual thing. I sent an email off to the CG asking if anyone needed longer
19:15:49 <anthony> ... no one spoke up, so it's fine then
19:16:23 <anthony> ... I asked CSS and XSL specifically if they can provide feedback
19:16:55 <anthony> CM: Do we normally announce publish documents on www-svg?
19:17:28 <anthony> CL: Now that is officially published
19:17:35 <anthony> ... usually the chairs send it out
19:17:50 <anthony> ... just say the document is published, give them links and say when the last period ends
19:18:01 <anthony> ... and some small summary about the document is useful
19:18:48 <anthony> ACTION: Cameron to Send an email to www-svg announcing the publication of the Compositing Specification
19:18:48 <trackbot> Created ACTION-3011 - Send an email to www-svg announcing the publication of the Compositing Specification [on Cameron McCormack - due 2011-03-23].
19:19:02 <anthony> CM: Is that a transition?
19:19:20 <anthony> CL: It's not a transition in that it requires a transition meeting
19:19:31 <heycam> ACTION-3011: send one to chairs@ too
19:19:31 <trackbot> ACTION-3011 Send an email to www-svg announcing the publication of the Compositing Specification notes added
19:19:39 <anthony> ... but send the same email to the chairs list but don't cross post
19:20:34 <anthony> Topic: Order of Transform and motion animation application
19:20:36 <heycam> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-svg-wg/2011JanMar/0093.html
19:21:11 <anthony> CM: I thought it might be unclear in the spec where the transform in motion animation gets applied in relation to element
19:21:43 <anthony> ... and implementations vary on whether they apply the motion transform first or the transform attribute
19:22:50 <anthony> ... It would be clear in spec if it defined for each element what order things were applied in
19:22:59 <anthony> ... in the email I put some wording in, but it's kind of unclear
19:23:20 <anthony> ... the wording "on top of" is unclear"
19:23:27 <anthony> ... I made a test to see what order things applied in
19:23:44 <anthony> ... I don't remember form that thread whether it should be one way or not
19:24:08 <anthony> AG: Did you try it out in Tiny 1.2 or Abbra for example?
19:24:23 <anthony> ED: Alex replied back and said the same as Opera and Firefox
19:24:36 <ed> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-svg-wg/2011JanMar/0094.html
19:24:59 <anthony> AG: Define for SVG 2? or add something in to 1.1?
19:25:17 <anthony> CM: We could probably add a sentence in if we are going to keep option "A"
19:25:26 <anthony> ... we already have a test for it and there are at least 2 passes for it
19:25:42 <anthony> ... Erik you said legacy content assumes option "A"
19:26:04 <ed> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-svg-wg/2011JanMar/0101.html
19:26:17 <anthony> ... Ikivo editor tool assumes option "A"
19:26:34 <anthony> ... I'm wondering which way makes more sense though?
19:26:43 <anthony> ... which is more useful?
19:27:27 <anthony> ... either way you can work around things by adding extra <g> element
19:27:34 <anthony> ED: I think it would be a good idea to ask the public list
19:27:49 <anthony> ... to see what people think. To see if there are any arguments regarding any of those options
19:28:12 <anthony> ... Like I said in my email I don't have any strong opinion. We went with option "A" because we wanted to be compatible with
19:28:19 <anthony> ... the content out there
19:28:52 <heycam> http://www.w3.org/mid/AANLkTimdSODDNoW7VCm8SXL+OF0GBgOdz35iRK5Jt2_j@mail.gmail.com
19:28:56 <ed> s/out there/out there at the time when it was first implemented in opera/
19:28:56 <anthony> CM: There is a thread starting here
19:29:17 <anthony> ... and we'll have to look at that thread
19:29:18 <Zakim> -ChrisL
19:29:42 <anthony> ... how about I look through that thread and see if it's clear one way or another
19:29:52 <Zakim> +ChrisL
19:29:59 <anthony> ... otherwise if it is not clear I say we go with option "A"
19:31:16 <anthony> ACTION: Camera to Look through the thread "SVG animateMotion specification clarification request" to determine if there is a preference for option "A" or "B"
19:31:16 <trackbot> Sorry, couldn't find user - Camera
19:31:28 <anthony> ACTION: Cameron to Look through the thread "SVG animateMotion specification clarification request" to determine if there is a preference for option "A" or "B"
19:31:29 <trackbot> Created ACTION-3012 - Look through the thread "SVG animateMotion specification clarification request" to determine if there is a preference for option "A" or "B" [on Cameron McCormack - due 2011-03-23].
19:33:38 <Zakim> -heycam
19:34:58 <ed> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-svg/2011Mar/0062.html
19:35:05 <anthony> Topic: Discrete Animation Fix
19:35:46 <anthony> ED: So this is basically what was proposed at the face-to-face meeting right?
19:36:33 <anthony> CL: I remember being this discussed, or if there were any downsides - i.e. content that broke
19:36:43 <pdengler> pdengler has joined #svg
19:37:29 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
19:37:35 <heycam> Zakim, [ is me
19:37:35 <Zakim> +heycam; got it
19:38:49 <Zakim> +[Microsoft]
19:38:51 <anthony> CM: Yes it was discussed, but I don't think it was clear whether this would be part of the changes in SVG 2
19:38:58 <anthony> ED: Any proposed wording
19:39:08 <anthony> CM: There isn't any proposed wording in his email
19:39:40 <anthony> ED: I don't see any broken content because of this
19:40:10 <anthony> CM: So maybe somebody could take an action to write a test for this to confirm that implementations are doing it this way
19:40:15 <anthony> ... and propose wording change
19:42:31 <anthony> ACTION: Cameron to Write a test to confirm that Brian's proposal is implemented by various different implementations and propose wording for the specification
19:42:32 <trackbot> Created ACTION-3013 - Write a test to confirm that Brian's proposal is implemented by various different implementations and propose wording for the specification [on Cameron McCormack - due 2011-03-23].
19:42:35 <Zakim> -tav
19:42:53 <anthony> Topic: CSS Animations
19:43:19 <Zakim> +tav
19:43:30 <anthony> CM: [Summaries discussion in FX call during the week]
19:43:47 <anthony> ... the CSS people were not particularly happy with the attr() syntax
19:43:54 <anthony> PD: I have been following
19:44:47 <anthony> CM: It seems the discussions we had at the face-to-face was CSS working group may not like option 2 because they would not a lot of properties being added
19:45:15 <anthony> ... Tab was given an action to email the working group with the options
19:45:30 <ed> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2011Mar/0347.html
19:45:42 <ed> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2011Mar/0350.html
19:45:51 <anthony> PD: I just want to get solved
19:46:10 <anthony> ... I liked the idea of '-svg-r' for radius for example
19:47:08 <anthony> CL: The downside is it makes it hard for Filter properties which were specific to filters
19:47:50 <anthony> ... we might be adding extra storage space in memory by adding about 30 - 40 properties
19:48:10 <anthony> PD: I was hoping that the svg prefix wouldn't carry over that problem to HTML
19:48:21 <anthony> CL: Potentially it makes SVG heavier
19:48:28 <ChrisL> I'm concerned about dom bloat making svg heavier and slowerr. 50-odd new properties per element ....
19:48:51 <anthony> CM: I think it is valid something to worry about
19:49:37 <anthony> ... I don't know how easy it is to optimise but you could only store properties that applied to certain elements
19:49:48 <anthony> ... this was raised by ROC and others
19:50:22 <anthony> ... the other issue being discussed with option number 2 whether to only do for this for select attributes only or all of them up front
19:50:27 <anthony> PD: I like the staging idea
19:51:11 <anthony> CM: ROC's argument is that we need to consider what needs to be done up front so we don't paint ourselves into a corner so we can later promote other properties
19:51:31 <anthony> ... I think it would be good to take a look if we were to promote all the attributes
19:51:34 <anthony> ... to see what it would be like
19:51:45 <anthony> ... to see if we need any new syntax values
19:51:55 <anthony> PD: You want an investigation to see if the entire picture will work
19:52:01 <anthony> CM: Yes, and how much work it will be
19:52:26 <anthony> ... my impression is once you have the architecture to handle presentation attribute and properties it wouldn't too much extra work
19:52:36 <anthony> ... I might have a look at that later on in the week
19:53:18 <anthony> ... so I'll post something to FX
19:54:50 <anthony> AG: Any issues with initial values, and inheritence?
19:55:41 <Zakim> -[Microsoft]
19:56:03 <anthony> CM: Let's keep the discussion going on this for a couple of weeks
19:56:11 <anthony> ... and look at it on the next FX call
19:56:23 <Zakim> -ChrisL
19:56:55 <Zakim> -ed
19:56:57 <Zakim> -heycam
19:56:59 <Zakim> -anthony
19:56:59 <Zakim> -tav
19:57:00 <Zakim> GA_SVGWG(SVG1)2:30PM has ended
19:57:02 <Zakim> Attendees were [IPcaller], ed, heycam, +39.524.9.aaaa, ChrisL, anthony, +39.537.7.aabb, tav, [Microsoft]
19:57:10 <anthony> trackbot, end telcon
19:57:10 <trackbot> Zakim, list attendees
19:57:10 <Zakim> sorry, trackbot, I don't know what conference this is
19:57:11 <trackbot> RRSAgent, please draft minutes
19:57:11 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/03/16-svg-minutes.html trackbot
19:57:12 <trackbot> RRSAgent, bye
19:57:12 <RRSAgent> I see 5 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2011/03/16-svg-actions.rdf :
19:57:12 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Cameron to Retest text-intro-02 and text-intro-09 in FireFox and Webkit and report back [1]
19:57:12 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2011/03/16-svg-irc#T19-13-02
19:57:12 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Cameron to Send an email to www-svg announcing the publication of the Compositing Specification [2]
19:57:12 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2011/03/16-svg-irc#T19-18-48
19:57:12 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Camera to Look through the thread "SVG animateMotion specification clarification request" to determine if there is a preference for option "A" or "B" [3]
19:57:12 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2011/03/16-svg-irc#T19-31-16
19:57:12 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Cameron to Look through the thread "SVG animateMotion specification clarification request" to determine if there is a preference for option "A" or "B" [4]
19:57:12 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2011/03/16-svg-irc#T19-31-28
19:57:12 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Cameron to Write a test to confirm that Brian's proposal is implemented by various different implementations and propose wording for the specification [5]
19:57:12 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2011/03/16-svg-irc#T19-42-31