14:51:32 RRSAgent has joined #rdf-wg 14:51:32 logging to http://www.w3.org/2011/03/16-rdf-wg-irc 14:51:50 Zakim has joined #rdf-wg 14:52:14 rrrsagent, make records public 14:52:32 rrsagent, make records public 14:52:49 JFB has joined #rdf-wg 14:53:10 agenda: http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/Meetings:Telecon2011.03.09 14:56:16 pfps has joined #rdf-wg 14:56:22 zakim, who is on the phone? 14:56:22 sorry, mbrunati, I don't know what conference this is 14:56:23 On IRC I see pfps, JFB, Zakim, RRSAgent, OlivierCorby, AxelPolleres, mbrunati, LeeF_, LeeF, hsbauer, webr3, mischat, danbri, ivan, yvesr, davidwood, NickH, manu1, manu, sandro, 14:56:26 ... trackbot 14:57:21 AndyS has joined #rdf-wg 14:58:03 zakim, this will be rdfwg 14:58:03 ok, LeeF, I see SW_RDFWG()11:00AM already started 14:58:08 zakim, who is on the phone? 14:58:08 On the phone I see Tony, ??P4, [IPcaller] 14:58:13 zakim, code? 14:58:13 the conference code is 73394 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.26.46.79.03 tel:+44.203.318.0479), LeeF 14:58:17 RRSAgent, pointer? 14:58:17 See http://www.w3.org/2011/03/16-rdf-wg-irc#T14-58-17 14:58:19 Zakim: ??P4 is yvesr 14:58:25 Zakim, ??P4 is yvesr 14:58:25 +yvesr; got it 14:58:36 zakim, [IPCaller] is me 14:58:36 +mbrunati; got it 14:58:39 Zakim, who is on the phone? 14:58:39 On the phone I see Tony, yvesr, mbrunati 14:58:43 + +34.67.92.aaaa 14:58:49 +Peter_Patel-Schneider 14:58:53 +??P12 14:58:57 + +1.617.553.aabb 14:59:02 zakim, aabb is me 14:59:02 + +34.92.38.aacc 14:59:02 +LeeF; got it 14:59:03 scribe: mbrunati 14:59:07 +34.67.92.aaaa is JFB 14:59:10 -Tony 14:59:11 +Sandro 14:59:16 +??P15 14:59:18 zakim, I am ??aabb 14:59:18 sorry, manu, I do not see a party named '??aabb' 14:59:24 zakim, ??p15 is me 14:59:25 +AxelPolleres 14:59:25 +AndyS; got it 14:59:26 gavin has joined #rdf-wg 14:59:28 zakim, I am aabb 14:59:30 zakim, +34.67.92.aaaa is JFB 14:59:31 sorry, manu, I do not see a party named 'aabb' 14:59:33 +JFB; got it 14:59:37 zakim, who is on the phone? 14:59:37 On the phone I see yvesr, mbrunati, JFB, Peter_Patel-Schneider, ??P12, LeeF, +34.92.38.aacc, Sandro, AndyS, AxelPolleres 14:59:39 zakim, I am +1.617.553.aabb 14:59:42 sorry, manu, I do not see a party named '+1.617.553.aabb' 14:59:44 +Tony 14:59:50 zakim, aacc is me 14:59:50 +OlivierCorby; got it 14:59:52 AlexHall has joined #rdf-wg 14:59:54 -??P12 15:00:30 +??P12 15:00:38 + +1.707.861.aadd 15:00:39 zakim, I am ??P12 15:00:39 +manu; got it 15:00:52 FabGandon has joined #rdf-wg 15:00:55 + +1.443.212.aaee 15:00:57 zakim, I am +1.707.861.aadd 15:00:57 +gavin; got it 15:01:39 cygri has joined #rdf-wg 15:01:57 zakim, mhausenblas is me 15:02:10 zakim, mute me 15:02:24 zakim, who is here? 15:02:31 no zakim 15:02:33 Zakim has joined #rdf-wg 15:02:37 oh hi zakim 15:02:39 zakim, mute me 15:02:41 zakim, mute me 15:02:43 sorry, gavin, I don't know what conference this is 15:02:44 zakim, who is here? 15:02:47 zakim, who is here? 15:02:47 zakim, this is rif-wg 15:02:49 sorry, JFB, I don't know what conference this is 15:02:51 sorry, sandro, I don't know what conference this is 15:02:58 zakim, this is rdf-wg 15:02:59 sorry, cygri, I don't know what conference this is 15:02:59 zakim, this is rdf-wg 15:03:03 sorry, sandro, I do not see a conference named 'rif-wg' in progress or scheduled at this time 15:03:05 thanks 15:03:06 tomayac has joined #rdf-wg 15:03:09 On IRC I see cygri, FabGandon, AlexHall, gavin, AndyS, pfps, JFB, RRSAgent, AxelPolleres, mbrunati, LeeF_, LeeF, hsbauer, webr3, mischat, danbri, ivan, yvesr, davidwood, NickH, 15:03:09 sandro, it's already setup 15:03:14 ... manu1, manu, sandro, trackbot 15:03:14 it's "rdfwg" 15:03:18 sorry, gavin, I do not see a conference named 'rdf-wg' in progress or scheduled at this time 15:03:20 sorry, sandro, I do not see a conference named 'rdf-wg' in progress or scheduled at this time 15:03:21 LeeF, it was not.... 15:03:26 zakim, this is rdfwg 15:03:30 yes it was :) 15:03:38 ok, sandro; that matches SW_RDFWG()11:00AM 15:03:43 Lee, then explain "--> Zakim (rrs-bridgg@128.30.52.169) has joined #rdf-wg" 15:03:57 who is talking? 15:04:00 Zakim, who is here? 15:04:02 ah well, i'd have to first explain "[11:01] * Zakim (rrs-bridgg@128.30.52.169) Quit (Client exited)" i guess :) 15:04:08 On the phone I see yvesr, mbrunati, JFB, Peter_Patel-Schneider, LeeF, OlivierCorby, Sandro, AndyS, AxelPolleres, Tony, manu, gavin, +1.443.212.aaee, +3539149aaaa, +31.20.598.aaaa, 15:04:08 zakim, who is talking? 15:04:09 LeeF, ahhhhhh 15:04:13 Oh dear 15:04:19 zakim goes down 15:04:28 twice 15:04:47 Zakim has joined #rdf-wg 15:04:55 and trackbot? 15:05:40 trackbot does seem to be here 15:05:40 zakim, mute me 15:05:42 zakim, who is talking? 15:05:46 sorry, tomayac, I don't know what conference this is 15:05:48 sorry, mbrunati, I don't know what conference this is 15:05:52 zakim, this is rdfwg 15:06:00 ok, gavin; that matches SW_RDFWG()11:00AM 15:06:21 RRSAgent, pointer 15:06:21 See http://www.w3.org/2011/03/16-rdf-wg-irc#T15-06-21 15:06:30 zakim, mute me 15:06:41 gavin should now be muted 15:06:51 zakim, who is on the phone? 15:06:52 Zakim, ??P42 is me 15:06:53 Minutes from last week: http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/meeting/2011-03-09 15:06:53 minutes last telecon 15:06:55 minutes look fine to me 15:06:56 Propose to accept 15:07:00 sandro has changed the topic to: RDF WG Meeting 2011-03-16 http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/Meetings:Telecon2011.03.16 15:07:01 +1 15:07:03 +1 15:07:10 On the phone I see yvesr, mbrunati, JFB, LeeF, OlivierCorby, Sandro, AndyS, AxelPolleres, Tony, manu, gavin (muted), +1.443.212.aaee, +3539149aaaa, +31.20.598.aaaa, David_Wood, 15:07:15 ... [Sophia], +1.404.978.aaaa, ??P42 (muted) 15:07:17 +NickH; got it 15:07:37 stupid americans ;-) 15:07:49 ▪ Action item review: 15:07:49 http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/actions/open 15:07:51 ivan: dst time and one hour before for the Europeans 15:07:53 zakim, 01+1.443.212.aaee is me 15:08:03 sorry, AlexHall, I do not recognize a party named '01+1.443.212.aaee' 15:08:15 zakim, unmute me 15:08:18 zakim, [Sophia] is me 15:08:19 gavin should no longer be muted 15:08:22 Action 17 appears to be done 15:08:22 Sorry, couldn't find user - 17 15:08:23 +FabGandon; got it 15:08:38 ACTION-17: Gavin's response at http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/GraphConceptTerminology 15:08:38 ACTION-17 Try and produce a digram based on the g-box, g-snap, g-text model from Sandro's email and this conversation notes added 15:08:57 gavin, very nice diagram! 15:09:04 zakim, 212.aaee is me 15:09:04 sorry, AlexHall, I do not recognize a party named '212.aaee' 15:09:09 gavin has made the diagram on GRAPH 15:09:27 zakim, list attendees 15:09:28 As of this point the attendees have been yvesr, mbrunati, JFB, LeeF, OlivierCorby, Sandro, AndyS, AxelPolleres, Tony, manu, gavin, +1.443.212.aaee, +3539149aaaa, +31.20.598.aaaa, 15:09:30 ... David_Wood, +1.404.978.aaaa, NickH, FabGandon 15:09:35 gavin, "me:" and ":me" are the same? 15:10:00 action-6 15:10:00 Andy, yes... thanks. Will fix :D 15:10:19 -yvesr 15:10:41 F2F1 15:10:41 http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/F2F1 15:10:49 action-items, one more week with an hour earlier for the Europeans 15:11:08 +??P4 15:11:10 now f2f 15:11:16 Zakim, ??P4 is yvesr 15:11:16 +yvesr; got it 15:11:27 q+ to ask about hotels 15:11:48 zakim, mute me 15:11:48 gavin should now be muted 15:11:55 please express the intent to make presence explicit on the f2f on the wiki 15:12:33 there are some action-items for the next week 15:12:58 action-4 and action6 are overdue 15:13:13 q? 15:13:17 ack sandro 15:13:17 sandro, you wanted to ask about hotels 15:13:26 more work on the GRAPH Task force 15:13:28 sandro: yvesr and I are staying at Mercure Hotel Amsterdam Aan de Amstel 15:13:29 we're staying at the Mercure hotel 15:13:35 (near Amstel station) 15:13:51 I believe SteveH and mischat are too 15:13:55 sandro: on hotels on the f2f at the Mercure hotel 15:14:48 topic: GRAPH TF, a proposal 15:14:50 Graph task force: Richard's proposal: http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/TF-Graphs/RDF-Datasets-Proposal 15:15:27 a proposal to make something concrete to work on 15:15:56 Zakim, mute me 15:15:56 yvesr should now be muted 15:16:13 how to address better the use cases, take the concept of RDF core, SPARQL 15:16:24 cmatheus has joined #rdf-wg 15:16:50 RDF dataset identify in SPARQL are basically syntactic 15:17:22 they are based on something already defined 15:17:49 the discussion on the ML is on two points 15:18:13 In addition to the named graphs and default graph mentioned by Richard many SPARQL implementations support a Union graph as well. 15:18:57 q+ to discuss data-deduplication in RDF as it relates to bnodes. 15:19:08 semantics and SPARQL: is it complete or not? 15:19:11 q? 15:19:50 q+ 15:19:53 +??P49 15:19:55 what the relations between graph, bnodes, what identify graph, g-snaps or snapshot and so on 15:20:06 zakim, who is talking? 15:20:06 well, SPARQL will say *something* about semantics in its Entailment Regimes document, but there will not be interdependencies between graphs in Datasets in SPARQL Entailment regimes. 15:20:07 -??P49 15:20:09 + +1.603.897.aabb 15:20:16 sandro, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: AndyS (24%), +3539149aaaa (24%), David_Wood (29%), ??P51 (20%) 15:20:29 +??P49 15:21:08 Axel, isn't entailment is only for graphs? 15:21:14 another point is maybe this proposal is something that is complete or not? 15:21:14 ack Manu 15:21:14 manu, you wanted to discuss data-deduplication in RDF as it relates to bnodes. 15:21:28 manu: 15:22:06 what are the proper directions on using bnodes in this context? g-snaps 15:22:29 +q to mention Union graph and it's usefulness 15:23:00 thinking on hard drives, the core OS thinking on files on different ways, and bnodes 15:23:14 we can think on them on the same way 15:24:07 ack Sandro 15:24:08 bnode as a file container maybe... we really need bnodes as a cross g-snaps 15:24:26 q+ to talk about graph/subgraph 15:24:30 zakim, who is talking? 15:24:40 mbrunati, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: AndyS (14%), David_Wood (65%) 15:24:56 bnodes are probably a problem for SPARQL users 15:25:05 davidwood: The problem I see with bnodes is when they are returned from a query and people want to follow-up. 15:25:42 q? 15:25:49 Nope. 15:25:55 ack AndyS 15:25:55 AndyS, you wanted to talk about graph/subgraph 15:26:00 andy: 15:26:25 AndyS: sometimes you know one graph is a strict mathematical subgraph, eg a inference view of the data and the base data, then you know it's the same bnode. 15:26:26 Manu: Looking at this from a data de-duplication perspective, perhaps bnodes could be viewed as only being an implementation concern? 15:26:47 richard: 15:27:04 +1 test cases on bnodes 15:27:12 +1 test cases on bnode sharing 15:27:19 +1 15:27:19 Manu: That is, you can share the bnode data across multiple instances in a copy-on-write way... that would allow us to say that bnodes are only valid inside a particular g-snap (it would make our decision easier) 15:27:42 q? 15:28:11 sandro: 15:28:12 Manu: So, one could expect thousands of bnodes that are exactly the same between multiple g-snaps... but that storage space could be compressed using bnode de-duplication on disk. 15:28:31 g-handle? :P 15:28:42 zakim, unmute me 15:28:42 gavin was not muted, gavin 15:28:49 people use graphs and not are talking about graphs... 15:29:08 Manu: However, there are other concerns as David and Andy mention about queries on bnodes. 15:29:14 what's the relation between URIS and g-snaps 15:29:21 SPARQL's "named graph" is the pair without meaning of the relationship -- maybe we need a "best practices" for using that 15:29:26 +1 sandro 15:29:28 URIs as g-boxes 15:29:43 +1 to sandro's terminology 15:29:56 +1 for URIs identifying g-boxes 15:30:05 Graph Box -> Graph Snapshot -> Graph Representation 15:30:17 q+ 15:30:18 Graph Resource -> Graph Snapshot -> Graph Representation ? 15:30:18 +1 to g-snap of a g-box (the IRI) at some point in time 15:30:24 we need to determine more terminology 15:30:28 gavin: 15:30:41 http://www.w3.org/TR/sparql11-http-rdf-update/ 15:31:02 Maps nicely to Resource -> Snapshot -> Representation - perhaps we should add this to TAG/WEBARCH people? 15:31:04 on the rdf update on the SPARQL WG 15:31:27 what is the mapping? in turtle 15:31:44 New name of that doc is "SPARQL 1.1 RDF Dataset HTTP Protocol" 15:32:08 gavin: other thing in the document, SPARQL mentions union graph 15:32:18 q? 15:32:22 ack gavin 15:32:22 gavin, you wanted to mention Union graph and it's usefulness 15:32:40 ack cygri 15:32:44 what graph are coming from, what is dataset notion in this context 15:32:48 richard: 15:33:18 danbri_ has joined #rdf-wg 15:33:20 +1 sharing blank nodes between two g-snaps matters with union graphs. 15:33:22 union graph, URIs are g-boxes 15:34:13 if we want to store some metadata about the graph, 15:34:37 we have to identify a sort of snapshot of that graph 15:34:42 [could someone ask Guus if he could let me into his office?] 15:35:08 q+ to ask Guus to let Dan into his office 15:35:11 with or without some trasformation on it? 15:35:18 zakim, mute me 15:35:18 gavin should now be muted 15:35:32 q? 15:36:14 q- 15:36:26 richard: 15:36:39 sandro: Excellent example, fetching http://www.w3.org and putting the metadata into a dataset, you'd have to do a (reversable) syntactic transformation, eg into http://myserve.example.com/fetched=http://www.w3.org 15:36:41 how to understand how to move forward on it? 15:37:17 sandro has pointed out more attention on terminology 15:37:21 propose that a g-sandro is a (URI, g-snap) pair 15:37:23 Yeah, but SPARQL already uses it? 15:37:29 cygri: :) 15:37:34 FROM NAMED 15:38:00 what are graphs, definitions, better named graph definitions maybe, some confusion on defs 15:38:10 a "name g-box pair" ? 15:38:38 q+ 15:38:46 URI, IRIs graph, we have to more focus on named graph on SPARQL 15:39:13 how to get out metadata about and out of this graph? 15:39:14 ack AndyS 15:39:17 andys: 15:39:54 URI as id for the graph or maybe 15:41:20 much meaning in a word, in a graph, in a name, few weeks to make clearer it 15:41:45 Guus has joined #rdf-wg 15:41:49 zakim, who is talking? 15:42:00 mbrunati, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: Peter_Patel-Schneider (30%), Sandro (5%), David_Wood (19%) 15:43:15 richard wants to make a more practical nextstep on it 15:43:24 more work on the ML 15:43:28 q? 15:43:51 sandro: It would be great to get the wording around "named graph" made somehow clearer in SPARQL drafts before LC, or at least before PR. 15:43:54 david: now Turtle 15:44:01 http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/TF-Turtle/Proposals 15:44:07 nathan: 15:44:22 s/nathan:/richard: 15:44:29 was Richard again (+1 for all the effort) 15:44:34 thanks 15:44:40 Yes, +1 to Richard 15:44:53 SteveH has joined #rdf-wg 15:45:19 name graph, more work, some proposal are out of scope 15:46:26 more usable, more use cases, many different languages, special characters 15:47:14 some proposals on graph TF 15:47:18 +1 as it's also great for building parsers ;) 15:47:18 david: 15:47:49 Can we not start with the n-triples text in RDF test cases? 15:48:15 a comment on Twitter that strongly not Turtle in RDF rec 15:49:10 we have to understand what is out of scope on the f2f 15:49:49 it's important to make ideas freely in this WG, even if someone upset and so on 15:49:50 I don't think that we need the "!" syntax in TURTLE, either... our company has never had a need for it. 15:50:12 At least for Turtle task force it doesn't look like very many people are going be at the F2F :( 15:50:37 f2f on the JSON proposals, it's important to move on also 15:50:59 +1 to get the preliminary JSON document sorted by the end of 1st F2F 15:51:22 david: what the timeline of closing out the opened issues? 15:51:53 we not have an opened issue on named graph 15:52:01 + +1.760.705.aacc 15:52:12 issue: What is a named graph and what should we call it? 15:52:12 Created ISSUE-14 - What is a named graph and what should we call it? ; please complete additional details at http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/issues/14/edit . 15:52:58 pchampin has joined #rdf-wg 15:53:17 david: are there other opened issues on this telecon? 15:53:25 issue: what is the relationship between the IRI and the triples in a dataset/quad-syntax/etc 15:53:25 Created ISSUE-15 - What is the relationship between the IRI and the triples in a dataset/quad-syntax/etc ; please complete additional details at http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/issues/15/edit . 15:54:29 other people have been having trouble 15:54:30 david: how to understand better what kind of documents we supposed are working on? 15:54:41 zakim, mute me 15:54:41 gavin should now be muted 15:54:48 q? 15:55:04 we have to use Turtle or not? 15:56:12 maybe it is necessary to collect on wikis periodical revisions on materials discussed 15:56:23 JSON TF now 15:56:33 manu: 15:56:35 syntax options for JSON: http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/JSON_Syntax_Options 15:56:38 +1 for nathan's work! 15:56:51 http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/TF-JSON#RDF_in_JSON_Use_Cases 15:56:58 Kudos to the JSON TF for the longest wiki page :) 15:57:00 http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/TF-JSON#RDF_in_JSON_Design_Requirements 15:57:04 collected some info on JSON syntax options, use cases, design requirements 15:57:10 http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/JSON_Syntax_Options 15:57:13 +1 for nathan's work 15:57:40 http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/JSON_Syntax_Options#Syntax_Structure 15:57:46 the primary decision is 15:58:07 JSON based on triples or objects model 15:58:19 or document approach 15:58:30 -OlivierCorby 15:58:52 to move forward we have to make some decision, but it's not clear how 15:59:11 maybe we have missed out some information on these proposals 15:59:20 q+ to ask if we're putting the cart before the horse 15:59:29 + +33.4.92.38.aadd 15:59:58 ack LeeF 15:59:58 LeeF, you wanted to ask if we're putting the cart before the horse 16:00:19 q+ 16:00:39 q+ 16:00:45 leef: probably we need to know what problems we try to solve 16:00:45 +1 to LeeF 16:01:02 the object-based vs. triple-based decision hints at the problem we're trying to solve. 16:01:13 +1 to LeeF 16:01:16 +1 manu 16:01:25 sandro: "make existing JSON map to RDF model" -- "make RDF easy for JSON users" -- "make json serialization of RDF" 16:01:26 indeed - the answer will depend on whether we wanta full rdf serialisation or not 16:01:34 http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/TF-JSON#A_primary_goal_SHOULD_be_to_build_a_human-friendly_version_of_the_serialization_for_JSON_developers 16:01:49 (actually, some of that was Lee) 16:01:52 ack tomayac 16:02:00 tomayac: 16:02:08 +1 to conflates issue with implementation 16:02:13 +1 16:02:17 +1 at-a-glance serializations. 16:02:22 +1 16:02:44 maybe we not need a complete serialization on json 16:03:11 zakim, who is talking? 16:03:21 mbrunati, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: Sandro (19%), David_Wood (24%), +1.404.978.aaaa (19%) 16:03:23 q? 16:04:04 not now 16:04:15 thanks 16:04:19 ack cygri 16:04:58 ACTION tomayac to create and start to populate a wiki area of demo graphs with how they each look in each json proposal. 16:04:59 Created ACTION-20 - Create and start to populate a wiki area of demo graphs with how they each look in each json proposal. [on Thomas Steiner - due 2011-03-23]. 16:05:08 cygri: more documentation on use cases and so on... 16:05:19 triple vs object approach 16:05:56 the problem maybe is on the head of us, how to manage a triplestore from a javascript context 16:06:08 although SPARQL results in JSON is probably not in our scope 16:06:28 cygri: some people find it important to, eg, access a triplestore without a (turtle) library. or, "i have an RDF graph and want to write it in json". or manu's thing I don't quite understand. 16:06:54 q+ to respond to Richard. 16:06:57 cygri: is the motivation to add bits of annotaiton to existing json, so they can be parsed as RDF? 16:07:15 cygri: or do you not need migration/annotation 16:07:15 manage the existing json stuff or to generate RDF to JSON syntax 16:07:19 ack manu 16:07:19 manu, you wanted to respond to Richard. 16:07:22 or something else? 16:07:26 manu: 16:07:56 q+ 16:08:09 manu: (1) annotation pre-existing json, and (2) take data people are emitting today (eg twitter) and understand that as RDF, by adding a "default context" 16:08:49 shall we make a json complete serialization of RDF? 16:09:00 ack cygri 16:09:07