20:00:17 RRSAgent has joined #fx 20:00:17 logging to http://www.w3.org/2011/03/14-fx-irc 20:00:19 RRSAgent, make logs world 20:00:19 Zakim has joined #fx 20:00:21 Zakim, this will be 3983 20:00:21 ok, trackbot; I see GA_FXTF()4:00PM scheduled to start now 20:00:22 Meeting: CSS-SVG Task Force Teleconference 20:00:22 Date: 14 March 2011 20:02:06 Zakim, who's on the phone? 20:02:06 GA_FXTF()4:00PM has not yet started, smfr 20:02:07 On IRC I see RRSAgent, smfr, hober, CSSWG_LogBot, heycam, fantasai, plinss, ed, TabAtkins, trackbot 20:03:02 Zakim, code? 20:03:02 the conference code is 3983 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.26.46.79.03 tel:+44.203.318.0479), heycam 20:03:40 Zakim, who's on the phone? 20:03:40 GA_FXTF()4:00PM has not yet started, smfr 20:03:41 On IRC I see RRSAgent, smfr, hober, CSSWG_LogBot, heycam, fantasai, plinss, ed, TabAtkins, trackbot 20:03:49 Zakim, are you confused by the time change? 20:03:49 I don't understand your question, smfr. 20:07:04 Present: heycam, ed, smfr, rik cabanier, hober 20:07:50 anthony_work has joined #fx 20:08:03 Zakim, pick a victim? 20:08:03 I don't understand your question, ed. 20:08:21 chair: erik 20:08:25 scribenick: smfr 20:08:45 Scribenick: smfr 20:08:49 Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-fx/2011JanMar/0124.html 20:09:01 Topic: CSS Animation 20:09:02 http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/wiki/Talk:F2F/Auckland_2011/CSS_Animation 20:09:47 anthony_work: summarizes css transitoins and animations applying to svg properties 20:09:55 s/properties/attributes 20:10:08 s/anthony_work:/heycam:/ 20:10:11 first proposal: turn all attributes into properties with the same name 20:10:12 http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/wiki/Talk:F2F/Auckland_2011/CSS_Animation#Promoting_attributes_to_properties 20:10:15 (sorry heycam) 20:10:27 (aussies all sound the same) 20:10:45 controvecial to convert all attributes to properties 20:11:15 may end up with property name conflicts; css properties are global, so property with name 'r' is not acceptable 20:11:27 http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/wiki/Talk:F2F/Auckland_2011/CSS_Animation#Introducing_new_properties 20:11:35 second proposal: new properties for attributes, but use different names 20:11:44 e.g. r -> circle-radius 20:12:02 20:12:24 but this breaks correspondence between properties and presentation attributes, so confusing 20:12:43 would need to define how e.g. circle-radius and r would interact 20:13:04 third option: add extra syntax to css transitions/animation to allow targeting attributes 20:13:09 http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/wiki/Talk:F2F/Auckland_2011/CSS_Animation#Allowing_CSS_Transitions.2FAnimations_to_target_attributes_directly 20:13:46 http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/wiki/Talk:F2F/Auckland_2011/CSS_Animation#Conclusions 20:13:54 cabanier has joined #fx 20:14:30 SVG WG preferred the functional syntax in the conclusion section 20:15:05 TabAtkins_ has joined #fx 20:15:13 Present+ anthony 20:15:54 wouldn't be able to transition svg attributes directly in css, because you can't use attr(x) on the LHS outside the keyframes 20:16:57 smfr: there should be nothing special about css parsing inside of keyframes, so i don't like this proposal 20:17:16 smfr: functional syntax on LHS is weird 20:18:03 TabAtkins: points to dean's proposal in email 20:18:45 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-fx/2011JanMar/0127.html 20:19:00 heycam: strange to extract special meaning out of "-attr-" identifiers on the LHS 20:19:00 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-fx/2011JanMar/0128.html 20:19:32 heycam: prefer the second option 20:20:04 heycam: it's more of a wholesale change to svg to make a bunch of attributes into newly named properties 20:20:13 cabanier has joined #fx 20:20:23 TabAtkins: this proposal seems similar to -attr-r 20:20:44 Present+ TabAtkins 20:21:40 TabAtkins: attribute-targeting as a magic hack is untenable if general enough for transitions as well as animations 20:22:10 TabAtkins: OK with option 2 or -attr- 20:22:40 smfr: -attr may conflict with vendor prefixes 20:22:52 TabAtkins: could use attr- and claim it as a unique prefix 20:23:46 anthony_work: can you use this to apply style to content? 20:23:56 TabAtkins: yes 20:24:14 ChrisL has joined #fx 20:24:20 TabAtkins: like setting HTML attributes which map to CSS 20:24:24 rrsagent, here 20:24:24 See http://www.w3.org/2011/03/14-fx-irc#T20-24-24 20:24:32 zakim, code 20:24:32 I don't understand 'code', ChrisL 20:24:35 zakim, code? 20:24:35 the conference code is 3983 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.26.46.79.03 tel:+44.203.318.0479), ChrisL 20:24:35 like the normal cascade; the presentational attribute loses 20:25:24 (who just spoke?) 20:26:12 Present+ CL 20:26:14 is 'display' animatable? 20:27:26 TabAtkins: we talked about all properties being animatable 20:27:34 smfr: i was going to try it and see if there were perf issues 20:27:56 TabAtkins: there's an issue to change transiton-property default to 'none' 20:28:19 heycam: does it make sense to target every attribute, or only animatable ones? 20:28:40 heycam: don't want to modify the DOM attribute property value on animations 20:29:01 TabAtkins: say that only subset of attributes are mapped to properties 20:29:20 heycam: limit to simple values; lengths, numbers etc 20:29:45 heycam: we've heard concrete arguments about option 3 20:29:59 heycam: haven't heard technical arguments against property promotion idea 20:30:20 ChrisL: CSS WG doesn't like adding lots of properties, and element-specific properties 20:30:49 ChrisL: adding c-x and c-y properties that only apply to circles would not be liked 20:31:22 heycam: don't want to expand out property tables on every element 20:31:30 smfr: how many properties are we talking about? 20:31:32 s/c-x and c-y/cx and cy/ 20:31:48 http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/wiki/F2F/Auckland_2011/CSS_Animation#Regular_Attributes 20:32:02 heycam: about 45 new properties 20:34:37 heycam: roc suggested that rather than adding e.g. circle-radius and ellipse-x-radius, see where properties are similar and merge them 20:35:03 TabAtkins: but this list has cx, x, rx so this list hasn't been folded 20:35:52 TabAtkins: if implementations can only use memory for SVG elements, then the number of new properties shouldn't be an issue 20:36:14 heycam: was this the main objection? 20:36:19 ChrisL: yes 20:37:15 TabAtkins: do we want to go with the attr- prefix or more specialized property names 20:37:25 heycam: maybe don't need to decide now 20:38:03 heycam: x can be a single value on rect, but a list on text 20:38:20 heycam: so need to be careful with possibly conflicting values 20:38:31 dx,dy has the same issue (for filters vs text elements) 20:38:36 TabAtkins: mostly an issue for the spec, not authors 20:39:15 heycam: if we go the attr- route then we could not create new presentation attributes on the elements 20:39:27 TabAtkins: wouldn't add new attributes even with the specialized names 20:40:03 heycam: what to do with SVG DOM obects like SVGAnimatedLength 20:40:17 TabAtkins: issue seeing the animating value from JS 20:40:31 heycam: SVG is interested in something easier to use than SVGAnimatedLength 20:41:30 action: take attr- proposal to CSS WG 20:41:30 Sorry, couldn't find user - take 20:41:37 action: TabAtkins take attr- proposal to CSS WG 20:41:37 Sorry, couldn't find user - TabAtkins 20:41:49 action: Tab take attr- proposal to CSS WG 20:41:49 Sorry, couldn't find user - Tab 20:41:52 darn 20:42:10 trackbot, users? 20:42:10 Sorry, heycam, I don't understand 'trackbot, users?'. Please refer to http://www.w3.org/2005/06/tracker/irc for help 20:42:18 trackbot, who do you know about? 20:42:18 Sorry, heycam, I don't understand 'trackbot, who do you know about?'. Please refer to http://www.w3.org/2005/06/tracker/irc for help 20:42:18 trackbot, status 20:43:07 action: cameron to take attr- proposal to SVG WG 20:43:08 Created ACTION-26 - Take attr- proposal to SVG WG [on Cameron McCormack - due 2011-03-21]. 20:43:40 Topic: 2D transforms spec 20:43:47 http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/wiki/FX-Taskforce/2DTransformsToDoList 20:44:06 anthony_work: made a TODO list 20:46:22 heycam: how do we proceed through this list? 20:46:31 smfr: take to email, the discuss things we need to 20:47:26 anthony_work: if you see issues that are easy to address, go in and edit the wiki page or let me know 20:48:13 smfr: what is "add IDL" for? 20:49:17 smfr: issue is that CSS OM is in flux, and the IDL that used to be there relied on something like CSSValues that were removed? 20:49:39 heycam: does transform become attr-transform? 20:49:54 anthony_work: was assuming it would stay as transform 20:50:25 anthony_work: what does this mean for the SVG animation interfaces? 20:50:45 anthony_work: some content uses them, we can't just drop them 20:51:29 heycam: we should discuss what happens with SVG DOM, and if it changes we will need IDL for it 20:51:48 heycam: wiki should make it clear that we won't add the CSS OM interfaces, just the SVG ones 20:52:02 heycam: SVG DOM interfaces could just be defined in SVG, and not in this spec 20:52:08 anthony_work: i like that 20:52:48 ed: i would like to see css matrix interface compatible with svg objects 20:54:29 smfr: we should strive to make a single matrix class 20:54:51 smfr: issue with 2d vs. 3d transform matrix 20:54:51 s/css matrix/css2d transforms interfaces, e.g CSSMatrix/ 20:54:58 f1lt3r_bocoup has joined #fx 20:54:59 TabAtkins: we should start with a 4x4 matrix 20:56:08 smfr: you have to say what happens when you apply a 3d matrix to something that can only render 2d 20:56:23 TabAtkins: you can specify what happens (flatten or whatever) 20:56:41 anthony_work: would prefer the transform doesn't apply, to avoid behavioral differences 20:58:38 smfr describes issues around supporting 3d css properties but not being able to render 3d 21:00:10 trackbot, end telcon 21:00:10 Zakim, list attendees 21:00:10 sorry, trackbot, I don't know what conference this is 21:00:11 RRSAgent, please draft minutes 21:00:11 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/03/14-fx-minutes.html trackbot 21:00:12 RRSAgent, bye 21:00:12 I see 4 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2011/03/14-fx-actions.rdf : 21:00:12 ACTION: take attr- proposal to CSS WG [1] 21:00:12 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2011/03/14-fx-irc#T20-41-30 21:00:12 ACTION: TabAtkins take attr- proposal to CSS WG [2] 21:00:12 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2011/03/14-fx-irc#T20-41-37 21:00:12 ACTION: Tab take attr- proposal to CSS WG [3] 21:00:12 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2011/03/14-fx-irc#T20-41-49 21:00:12 ACTION: cameron to take attr- proposal to SVG WG [4] 21:00:12 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2011/03/14-fx-irc#T20-43-07