EOWG minutes 11 Mar 2011


  1. Scribing, IRC, teleconference connections, and such
  2. WCAG 2 at a Glance (print version)
  3. Expanding-Collapsing functionality in How People with Disabilities Use the Web
  4. Page and section headings in How People with Disabilities Use the Web
  5. WAI Site Map and new pages
  6. Time for 25 March teleconference - either one hour later for most people in North America, or one hour earlier for those in Europe and several other places


Sharron, Shawn, Wayne, Shadi, Jennifer, Liam_McGee, Sylvie
Sandi, Suzette, Ian


WCAG 2 at a Glance

<shadi> Maximize compatibility with current and future user tools.

Shawn: Print version in beta, got it printed for now (for Sharron and SXSW) but it is still open. Is everyone OK with
... above wording for now?

<shawn> wcag: 4.1 Compatible: Maximize compatibility with current and future user agents, including assistive technologies.

<sylvie> ok with this

<shawn> Any objections?

Shawn: any objections to printing for new and coming back to it after these conferences

Sharron: I think it's great, what is the cause of the discomfort?

Shawn: We need broader review

Wayne: It's good for this week and I personally think it's good forever.

Shawn: Designer does not like the bolding, feels it breaks it up and makes it harder to read

Wayne: I'm REALLY ok with the bolding, provides mnemonics
... Not a show stopper, but it is so nice to have those 3 or 4 words to remember by

Shawn: Might if I have time send a copy out to the group to get feedback
... anything else on that?
... Now will hand chair to Shadi for next

Expanding and Collapsing of How PWD Use the Web

Shadi: Trying to get this ready for Shawn's roadshow.
... needed to test placement of buttons etc to make it as accessible and usable as possible. Linked from the agenda, please navigate to page called "Stories..."

<shadi> http://www.w3.org/WAI/EO/Drafts/PWD-Use-Web/2009/scenarios

Shadi: I would like to ask for your thoughts and feedback

Shawn: Can you comment on the email submissions?

Shadi: Some of those have been addressed. Sylvie and Emmanuelle did not like the wording of the buttons. Needed more context. So I have made that change so that headings are not generic but more specific.

Liam: I think that visually it is a bit confusing, I am sorry to say.
... understanding what just happened when you use the buttons. it is more of an issue when you are keyboard navigating, it seems to break the logic.

Shadi: So are you saying that if you are on this page, the subsection listing and if you click on one of those, it should not open, but take you to that part of the page.

Liam: OK, I see now. I take it all back, it's brilliant

<shadi> http://www.w3.org/WAI/EO/Drafts/PWD-Use-Web/2009/excol.html

Shadi: From the agenda, see additional types of buttons and styles. There is another set of alternatives. Anyone want to comment on those?

<sylvie> it was about the link

Liam: If I don't need a mouse, I am good. Good toggle functionality, easy to use, good!

Shadi: Hit tab in between enter and collapse

Sylvie: When I am on the first page with the "Read more about Mr. Lee" the additional text is there, but when I collapse, the screenreader gets lost and I am with Mr Olsen. The page with the buttons and headings works better, I stay in the same place.

<LiamM> Shadi: total capitulation

Jennifer: Does this mean that we go back to the previous?

Shadi: the page "additional..." will give you the choices
... the headings approach vs the link approach
... The resolution is that we will use the headings approach and will consider the naming of those.

Wayne: Anyone in Mozilla notices that the verbiage makes this hard to use.
... the main navigation is almost invisible in the context of the page when styles are disabled.
... your chance of missing that is very high when screen is magnified.

Shadi: Placing a heading in front of that is the fix, I believe.

Shawn: When Andrew added an interim implementation of this, there was nxt page, previous page...

<shadi> ACTION: shadi - add invisible link before the in-suite navigation menu [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2011/03/11-eo-minutes.html#action01]

Shadi: anything else? about overall functionality

Shawn: very excited about it, thank you!

Shadi: jennifer: Please refresh and tell me if the button labels are read twice?

Jennifer: I am not looking at it now Shadi, but they were before the call

Liam: I am using another approach. I am still testing.

Shadi: When you did all the testing this week - and thank you for that! - were you using any particular method?

Sylvie: Tried to use various methods

Jennifer: For my planning, how much time do we have? Just a couple of days?

Shadi: Shawn wants to go live very soon.

Jennifer: These screen readers try to accomodate bad coding. Their behavior is sometimes non-standard as a result. It is not in our control.

Shadi: I understand but feel like I should meet the requirements for the most used tools.
... does anyone object to that? meeting the most popular browsers and AT and using it for these upcoming demos?

Shadi: If we go with this configuration will work on most situations, but not the best with NVDA and IE combo

Sylvie: Since NVDA users are informed that it is better to use NVDA with Firefox and not with IE, it is not a big issue if the functionality does not work with NVDA and IE.

Shadi: OK, any objections to allowing this to stand?

Wayne: At some point we should start contacting AT and browsers saying, we just wrote valid code and this does not work. It is impossible to keep up with all the dropped balls of screenreaders.

Jennifer: In scope for IE?
... why don't consumers demand better?

Shawn: In this case we can say, here is what we did, where it breaks. Then up to others to contact vendors.
... we could post the info.

Wayne: This is not something we should do tomorrow, but should have a strategy since it comes up a lot.

Shadi: I spent about 20% of time doing actual coding and the rest chasing bugs and work arounds with browsers and AT.
... it is a good point.

Sharron: EO role is also to educate tool makers.

Shadi: Thanks to everyone for your help, especially Sylvie and Liam.
... now let's look at headings.
... If you are on overview page, and be able to see four sub-pages.
... in particular see "Variety of Web Browsers" have had a few titles, not sure it is finalized. Before we get into that, are there any other issues with page headings?

Shawn: The other three really sing, really work well.

<shadi> [[introduces some of the hardware and software innovations, such as voice recognition, eye-tracking, and other systems that people with disabilities commonly use]]

Shadi: Read description for the page and brainstorm in IRC on out loud.

<shadi> Diversity of Web Browsing

<shadi> Diversity in Web Browsing

<shadi> Tools and Techniques for Web Browsing

<shadi> User Tools

<shadi> Access Technologies

<shadi> Assistive Technologies

<shadi> Use of Access Technologies

<shadi> Diversity

Jennifer: like to use term diversity somehow

<shadi> Web Browsing Techniques

Shawn: Diversity of web tools, user tools

<shadi> Diversity of Web Tools

<shadi> Diversity of User Tools

Shawn: web browsing techniques

<shadi> Web Browsing Methods

<shadi> Web Browsing Strategies

Shawn: strategies, approaches

<shadi> Web Browsing Approaches

Liam: really about different types of people, not the tools they use

<Wayne> adaptations to web browsing

<shawn> http://www.w3.org/WAI/EO/Drafts/PWD-Use-Web/2009/browsing

<sylvie> ok

<Wayne> coping strategies for web browsing

<sylvie> Diversity of Web use

Shadi: nice

Liam: yeh like that

<sylvie> right

Shawn: similar to Diversity of Users

<sylvie> Browsing the Web on different ways or with different ways?

<Wayne> how people browse

<shadi> Web Access Techniques

<sylvie> Tools and techniques to browse the Web

Jennifer: Web Access Techniques

<shadi> Web Access Tools

Wayne: Web Access Tools

Jennifer: not just tools, also approaches

<shadi> Approaches to Web Access

<shadi> Web Browsing WAIs :)

<shadi> Ways of Browsing

Jennifer: Ways of Browsing

<shawn> liam: the ways people browse

<shadi> Ways People Browse

Liam: Ways people browse

<sylvie> Various ways of browsing

<shawn> [ shawn notes that while she likes Web Access Techniques, it would probably be best not to use "Techniques" since that has another meaning in WCAG etc]

Shadi: 2 items on a short list - Ways People Browse, Web Access Strategies

<shadi> Web Access Approaches

<shawn> Web Access Approaches, - Tools, - Strategies,. Methods

<shadi> Web Access Methods

<shadi> Way People Browse

<shadi> Ways People Browse


<LiamM> The Way We Browse Now

<Wayne> ways people browse +1

<shadi> [[Ways People Browse]]

<Wayne> The many ways people browse

<shadi> Many Ways People Browse

<shawn> Different Ways People Browse

Shawn: This will be publicly findable, but will not be announced and will still say DRAFT. More discussion possible.
... happy with Ways People Browse for now and we can sleep on it and change in future.

Shadi: How are you feeling about it Sylvie?

Sylvie: Not so happy, but if everyone else like it, can accept.
... like Wayne's suggestion - the Many ways people browse.

Shadi: what do people think about that?

Sharron: It's a bit long, but OK

Jennifer: not super keen, it doesn't add enough to warrent the length

<Wayne> ways people browse +1

Shadi vote for Ways or many ways

Shawn: put it out, leave it on our list of things to consider

<sylvie> ok

[some other thoughts in e-mail thread started 23 March]

The ways people browse
Diversity of Web Use (like this as it echoes the previous tab nicely)
Diversity of Browsing Techniques
How Different People Browse
How Other People Browse
How People Browse
How Different People Read The Web
Diverse Ways Of Reading The Web
Ways Of Reading The Web

shadi: May be a translation issue with the word "Ways..."
... Understanding WCAG2 is ready for French translation if you know anyone who may be interested in helping

<Zakim> shawn, you wanted to say first paragraph (later)

Shawn: revise into paragraph to address Sylvie's concern and I wonder about the word innovation. Emphasis seems to be on futuristic things and should we not focus on the everyday things that people are using now.

Shadi: Can you take an action item to suggest wording?

Wayne: Are we talking about the opening paragraph?

Shawn: jennifer or Sylvie should take that action item

Jennifer: I can take a stab at it tomorrow morning early, would that help?

Shawn: yes, it will be

Shadi: We'll put it out as is, Jennifer will start a revision thread and next week we can all review and attend the thread and make the decision on the list.

Wayne: There is a line height style problem on this page.
... when it is enlarged, it shmushes together, seems to be absolute numbers, rather than scalable.

Shadi: got it, thanks!

<shadi> ACTION: shadi - fix line height on sub-heading "how people with disabilities use the web" [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2011/03/11-eo-minutes.html#action02]

Shadi: quickly browse through pages of the suite and check the headings, sub headings...do they work?
... ok to go with it for now?

Sharron: quick review says they are fine

<Wayne> I'm off to pump iron.

<shawn> http://www.w3.org/WAI/redesign/2011/yourWAI

Finding your WAI

Shawn: Comments on new intro blurb? New wording based on last week's discussion.

Sharron: yes, looks good

Shadi: Really like it, thanks Shawn for addressing my concerns.
... How to complain when you come across inaccessible web sites?
... not always about complaining.

Shawn: what to do?

Jennifer: yes, that takes out emotion

Shawn: so What to Do when you come across...

Face to Face Meetings schedule

<shawn> Confirmed upcoming face-to-face meetings:

<shawn> 23-24 May 2011 in London, England (location and agenda to be announced in March)

<shawn> At TPAC 2011 in Santa Clara, CA, USA (2 days between 31 October to 4 November 2011 to be decided later)

Shawn: no meeting next week due to CSUN, etc
... propose that on Mar 25th, starting one hour later in the US

All: no objections

Shawn: Ok, go forth watch the mailing list, wish us well on new site nav within a few hours and we're positioning this as an update-in-progress/live beta.

Jennifer: Will UAAG folks be able to look at it?
... safe travels everyone

Summary of Action Items

[NEW] ACTION: shadi - add invisible link before the in-suite navigation menu [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2011/03/11-eo-minutes.html#action01]
[NEW] ACTION: shadi - fix line height on sub-heading "how people with disabilities use the web" [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2011/03/11-eo-minutes.html#action02]
[End of minutes]

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$Date: 2011/03/25 13:23:56 $