14:54:44 RRSAgent has joined #sparql 14:54:44 logging to http://www.w3.org/2011/03/08-sparql-irc 14:54:46 RRSAgent, make logs world 14:54:46 Zakim has joined #sparql 14:54:48 Zakim, this will be 77277 14:54:48 ok, trackbot; I see SW_(SPARQL)10:00AM scheduled to start in 6 minutes 14:54:49 Meeting: SPARQL Working Group Teleconference 14:54:49 Date: 08 March 2011 14:54:51 zakim, this will be SPARQL 14:54:51 ok, LeeF; I see SW_(SPARQL)10:00AM scheduled to start in 6 minutes 14:54:53 Chair: LeeF 14:55:02 Agenda: http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/wiki/Agenda-2011-03-08 14:55:13 SW_(SPARQL)10:00AM has now started 14:55:17 Scribenick: pgearon 14:55:20 +??P7 14:55:25 NickH has joined #sparql 14:55:54 SteveH_ has joined #sparql 14:56:54 Zakim, ??P7 is me 14:56:54 +NickH; got it 14:57:08 NicoM has joined #sparql 14:57:18 +LeeF 14:57:29 +[IPcaller] 14:57:36 zakim, IPCaller is me 14:57:36 +AndyS; got it 14:57:42 +NicoM 14:57:52 +kasei 14:58:43 Zakim, mute me 14:58:43 kasei should now be muted 14:59:49 +[IPcaller] 14:59:52 chimezie has joined #sparql 14:59:57 Zakim, [IPcaller] is me 14:59:57 +SteveH; got it 15:00:10 +Sandro 15:00:20 +pgearon 15:00:27 hi 15:00:31 MattPerry has joined #sparql 15:00:35 paul, are you ok to scribe today? 15:00:43 yes, I can scribe 15:00:46 thanks 15:00:48 + +1.216.368.aaaa 15:00:54 Zakim, +1.216.368.aaaa is me 15:00:54 +chimezie; got it 15:01:13 +MattPerry 15:01:43 zakim, who's on the phone? 15:01:43 On the phone I see NickH, LeeF, AndyS, NicoM, kasei (muted), SteveH, Sandro, pgearon, chimezie, MattPerry 15:02:25 topic: Admin 15:02:26 PROPOSED: Approve minutes at http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/meeting/2011-03-01 15:03:02 RESOLVED: Approve minutes at http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/meeting/2011-03-01 15:03:13 Next regular meeting: 2011-03-15 @ 14:00 UK / 10:00 EST (scribe: Andy S) NOTE DIFFERENT TIME FOR NON-US LOCATIONS 15:05:14 bglimm has joined #sparql 15:05:31 topic: To Last Call 15:06:33 bglimm, we are wondering if you intend to look at the formal section of SPARQL Query when you have a chance? 15:07:04 SteveH: Query in the same state as last time 15:07:12 +bglimm 15:07:25 Zakim, mute me 15:07:25 chimezie should now be muted 15:08:11 bglimm: will still have a look at the formal section soon 15:08:56 Not much happened. The main thing still outstanding is the BNode issue 15:09:11 If there's anything else that needs doing, then someone should point it out 15:09:32 I was under the impression that all outstanding issues were handled (except test data) 15:09:37 right 15:10:18 for AndyS... That was a few weeks ago now, so my memory isn't clear, but I think so yes 15:11:04 LeeF: AndyS and kasei to be asked to review Update at their convenience 15:11:17 Zakim, mute me 15:11:17 bglimm should now be muted 15:11:58 http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/docs/protocol-1.1/Overview2.xml 15:12:42 LeeF: some progress for "Protocol" 15:12:54 Zakim, unmute me 15:12:54 kasei should no longer be muted 15:13:10 LeeF: Service Description 15:13:55 "Add link to discussion on empty graphs in the Update document (when such a section exists) " 15:14:47 for LeeF: no, I wasn't 15:15:34 kasei: service description describes dropping empty graphs 15:16:00 kasei: supporting empty graphs 15:16:11 LeeF: this needs to have some reference in the Update document 15:16:36 http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/docs/update-1.1/Overview.xml#graphUpdate 15:17:21 kasei: Update doc describes dropping graphs. Not clear from this description if it describes supporting empty graphs 15:17:58 LeeF: Update may not need to say what is supported in a store. Service description can describe this 15:18:59 http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/docs/service-description-1.1/xmlspec.xml#sd-emptygraphs 15:19:14 ACTION: Lee to propose text for SD document explaining 3.4.7 sd:EmptyGraphs 15:19:15 Created ACTION-406 - Propose text for SD document explaining 3.4.7 sd:EmptyGraphs [on Lee Feigenbaum - due 2011-03-15]. 15:19:43 In the DROP section I was trying to describe how a store would behave in the 2 situations: 1. supporting empty graphs. 2. Not recording empty graphs. I tried hard not to commit to saying what should/should not be supported 15:20:09 pgearon, thanks, I'll take a look at that too 15:20:28 kasei: would like someone to glance at conformance section for service description 15:21:16 kasei: conformance section says, "must include one triple". AndyS would like this to say, "must include at least one triple" 15:21:23 ACTION: Greg to change conformance section in SD to refer to including "at least" one triple... 15:21:23 Created ACTION-407 - Change conformance section in SD to refer to including "at least" one triple... [on Gregory Williams - due 2011-03-15]. 15:21:24 +1 to that 15:21:33 ACTION: Andy to look over current conformance section in service description modulo "at least" change from ACTION-407 15:21:33 Created ACTION-408 - Look over current conformance section in service description modulo "at least" change from ACTION-407 [on Andy Seaborne - due 2011-03-15]. 15:21:56 LeeF: HTTP protocol document 15:21:59 Zakim, mute me 15:21:59 kasei should now be muted 15:22:11 Zakim, unmute me 15:22:11 chimezie should no longer be muted 15:22:57 LeeF: comments on relationship to service description. Also comment from Leigh Dodds with other operations that might be included 15:23:29 chimezie: Thinks that operations in POST are beyond scope, but we should have this discussion 15:23:47 LeeF: will come back to new operations 15:24:05 LeeF: SteveH still has pending review on this doc 15:24:18 LeeF: Entailment document 15:24:34 Zakim, unmute me 15:24:34 bglimm should no longer be muted 15:24:53 LeeF: received review from Jay. Should mark this off on Wiki page. Still waiting on review from Clark and Parsia 15:25:29 LeeF: to bglimm, should we discuss D-entailment today? 15:26:29 LeeF: JSON doc waiting for reviewers to have some time 15:26:33 I reminded C&P (talked o Hector) and he'll try to push Evren who is doing the review 15:26:36 Zakim, mute me 15:26:36 chimezie should now be muted 15:27:40 LeeF: can people please consider tests as we get closer to LC 15:28:17 LeeF: also need to review existing tests, as these have taken a back seat to editorial issues recently 15:28:19 405 is done 15:28:34 I think I had one, which I completed, but can't remember what it was 15:28:42 .. that was 405. 15:28:50 I'll search for it 15:28:56 trackbot, close ACTION-405 15:28:57 ACTION-405 Draft xml for revised Extending BGP matching section for query closed 15:28:58 LeeF, I've completed 396 and 403 15:28:59 Thans 15:29:07 s/Thans/Thanks/ 15:29:14 trackbot, close ACTION-396 15:29:14 ACTION-396 Contact chime on Dataset Update Protocol issue closed 15:29:28 trackbot, close ACTION-403 15:29:28 ACTION-403 Answer to http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2011JanMar/0369.html with counterexample to JB-2 closed 15:29:37 398 I also did 15:29:47 prepare test cases for approval 15:29:51 trackbot, close ACTION-398 15:29:51 ACTION-398 Prepare entailment tests for next week for approval closed 15:29:57 Axel looked at them too 15:30:06 topic: Blank nodes in DELETE templates 15:30:08 LeeF: Next topic. Blank nodes in DELETE templates 15:31:20 LeeF: resolution was for blank nodes to represent wildcards when deleting 15:31:39 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2011JanMar/0409.html 15:31:44 LeeF: recently SteveH, AndyS, pgearon found issues around implementation 15:32:13 andy didn't capture my preference which was make it an error 15:32:14 LeeF: AndyS also did work on how to delete lists without this "shortcut" 15:32:31 PROPOSED: SPARQL 1.1 Update forbids blank nodes in DELETE templates 15:33:07 seconded 15:33:10 seconded 15:33:11 LeeF: does anyone have anything further to discuss on this, or serious concerns? 15:33:26 RESOLVED: SPARQL 1.1 Update forbids blank nodes in DELETE templates 15:33:43 Sure 15:34:00 I'll change it either way, but an action helps track it 15:34:02 ACTION: Paul to edit Update document to note that blank nodes in DELETE templates are an error 15:34:03 Created ACTION-409 - Edit Update document to note that blank nodes in DELETE templates are an error [on Paul Gearon - due 2011-03-15]. 15:34:20 topic: Dataset protocol & service description 15:35:14 LeeF: service description initially conceived as description of features and capabilities of endpoints supporting SPARQL protocol 15:35:45 LeeF: scope expanded to description of things like endpoint URLs 15:36:45 LeeF: do we need additions to service description to include dataset protocol. Preference is to not make large changes 15:36:49 Zakim, unmute me 15:36:49 chimezie should no longer be muted 15:37:15 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg-comments/2011Feb/0013.html 15:37:19 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg-comments/2011Jan/0029.html 15:37:23 chimezie: main comments are from Leigh Dodds and Rob Vesse 15:37:38 chimezie: Leigh wants to do GET/PUT on protocol 15:37:47 s/protocol/graph store 15:38:30 Leigh asks: how do you find the URL to POST new graphs to? 15:38:47 chimezie: Leigh has question on graph store being a dataset, but don't think it is 15:39:05 Leigh would also want to implement the dataset protocol without exposing SPARQL query or SPARQL update endpoints, but SD document assumes that you're talking about SPARQL protocol & not dataset protocol 15:39:20 Rob V says similar comments 15:40:01 Greg proposed including a RESTDataset class, but not more substantive changes at this time 15:40:06 -NickH 15:40:26 chimezie: there's currently an informative section in dataset protocol document talking about relationship with SD 15:40:33 sd:RESTDataset 15:40:33 ... could introduce vocabulary there 15:40:39 sd:defaultGraphStoreDescription 15:41:20 I don't understand what sd:defaultGraphStoreDescription would mean. 15:41:26 http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/docs/http-rdf-update/#http-option 15:41:39 +??P7 15:41:46 Zakim, ??P7 is me 15:41:46 +NickH; got it 15:42:05 q+ to ask if it really needs to support update 15:42:44 chimezie: current relationship between services and dataset in the service desc doc 15:42:52 sd:defaultDatasetDescription 15:43:07 chimezie: can't reuse this term because the range is Dataset 15:43:09 the range of that term is sd:Dataset 15:43:25 chimezie: my understanding is that a graph store is not a dataset 15:43:28 q+ to talk about g-boxes and g-snaps 15:43:28 Zakim, unmute me 15:43:30 kasei should no longer be muted 15:43:38 chimezie: new term would be the same thing, but relates service to a graph store instead 15:43:51 LeeF: do we need to define a graph store class? 15:44:35 chimezie: the object of the sd:defaultGraphStoreDescription would be the URL against which dataset protocol operations should be sent 15:44:52 kasei: but it's the dataset protocol, not the graph store protocol? 15:45:14 q+ 15:46:01 what about sd:datasetProtocolLocation or something ? 15:46:02 q+ to say I think a dataset can be mutable even if a graph isn't -- in changing it, you're changing what graphs are in it 15:46:15 chimezie: if we're going to say that a graph store is not a dataset then don't know if protocol or SD docs are the place to say that 15:46:25 ack AndyS 15:46:25 AndyS, you wanted to talk about g-boxes and g-snaps 15:47:23 (but datasets in SPARQL *do* change, right?) 15:47:58 isn't the dataset protocol about moving from one dataset to another? 15:48:05 sandro: don't all existing implementations of SPARQL 1.0 involve datasets changing? 15:48:41 AndyS: it's not the dataset which is changing, it's what the service is currently supporting that is changing 15:48:56 sandro: do people conceptualize this as replacing one dataset from another ? 15:49:06 thread on mutability of datasets and graphs: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg-comments/2010Oct/0038.html 15:49:15 AndyS: not necessarily, but in the same way that people using a programming language think of sets as mutable, even though mathematical sets are immutable 15:49:27 sandro: wonder if treating datasets as a mutable structure is a simple way to deal with this ? 15:49:35 AndyS: we call the mutable structure a graph store 15:50:07 sandro: seems somewhat confusing to draw this distinction 15:50:15 AndyS: changing update document to remove term "graph store" would be a big change 15:51:22 AndyS: the slight trick is that we don't put datasets on the web. We put graphs on the web 15:51:37 AndyS: don't have a theory of datasets as computational objects 15:51:40 -bglimm 15:52:21 q+ 15:52:25 AndyS: is it a dataset protocol? 15:52:38 + +41.86.528.aabb 15:52:47 Zakim, +41.86.528.aabb is me 15:52:47 +bglimm; got it 15:52:58 Zakim, mute me 15:52:58 bglimm should now be muted 15:53:19 ack kasei 15:53:25 q- 15:53:44 kasei: hesitant to split up definition of SD across multiple documents 15:53:57 ... there's a lot of value to having it contained to one document 15:54:28 kasei: would sd:defaultGraphStoreDescription be used in addition to sd:defaultDatasetDescription for services that implement both protocols? 15:54:35 chimezie: the name probably isn't great 15:54:47 chimezie: my intuition is that it would use both 15:54:51 q- 15:55:45 kasei: i thought we accomplish this already by typing an existing dataset as a RESTDataset 15:56:18 chimezie: we don't have an explicit axiom saying a RESTDataset is disjoint from a Dataset, but there's an implication that they are disjoint, so it would be confusing to use them in that way 15:56:37 kasei: we may run into problems because people are not going to understand that they're disjoint 15:56:53 kasei: i think of one as a mutable version of the other, or an access point to move from one dataset to the next 15:57:28 chimezie: via Leigh's comments, the question is out there as to the relationship between a graph store and a dataset 16:00:29 q- 16:02:03 is it decided if a GET to a SPARQL endpoint returns the service description? 16:02:15 NickH, yes 16:02:30 -chimezie 16:02:32 bye 16:02:33 -LeeF 16:02:37 -NicoM 16:02:40 -bglimm 16:02:42 -AndyS 16:02:43 -kasei 16:02:43 -MattPerry 16:02:45 -pgearon 16:02:49 kasei: ok, thanks 16:02:54 -NickH 16:02:59 -SteveH 16:03:09 LeeF: With chair hat on, I'm very tempted to say that given resource and experience constraints, that SD is only about SPARQL protocol and is unrelated to the dataset protocol 16:03:38 NickH, yes, see http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/docs/service-description-1.1/xmlspec.xml#accessing 16:03:55 pgearon, can you do the http://www.w3.org/2009/CommonScribe/panel/ magic to generate the minutes, please? 16:04:03 sure 16:04:07 many thanks 16:06:44 LeeF: thanks, just checking if that has been confirmed 16:35:01 disconnecting the lone participant, Sandro, in SW_(SPARQL)10:00AM 16:35:04 SW_(SPARQL)10:00AM has ended 16:35:06 Attendees were NickH, LeeF, AndyS, NicoM, kasei, SteveH, Sandro, pgearon, chimezie, MattPerry, bglimm 17:18:20 SteveH has joined #sparql 18:01:02 Zakim has left #sparql 18:06:34 AndyS has joined #sparql 18:24:16 SteveH_ has joined #sparql 19:02:16 SteveH has joined #sparql 19:20:33 SteveH_ has joined #sparql 21:13:25 karl has joined #sparql 22:38:25 SteveH has joined #sparql