IRC log of svg on 2011-03-03

Timestamps are in UTC.

20:22:27 [RRSAgent]
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20:22:27 [RRSAgent]
logging to
20:22:29 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, make logs public
20:22:31 [heycam]
RRSAgent, this meeting spans midnight
20:22:31 [trackbot]
Zakim, this will be GA_SVGWG
20:22:31 [Zakim]
I do not see a conference matching that name scheduled within the next hour, trackbot
20:22:32 [trackbot]
Meeting: SVG Working Group Teleconference
20:22:32 [trackbot]
Date: 03 March 2011
20:22:59 [Zakim]
Team_(svg)20:22Z has now started
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+ +1.649.363.aaaa
20:23:19 [tbah]
OK, thanks.
20:31:06 [anthony_nz]
Scribe: Anthony
20:31:11 [anthony_nz]
ScribeNick: anthony_nz
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20:31:28 [Zakim]
20:32:26 [heycam]
Chair: Cameron
20:32:36 [anthony_nz]
Topic: CSS 3D Object Position
20:32:51 [anthony_nz]
ED: Ties into the discussion yesterday about images and aspect ratio
20:33:01 [anthony_nz]
... CSS 3 has the new object fit properties
20:33:14 [anthony_nz]
... they effect how images are hard positioned and extended in the image tag
20:33:22 [anthony_nz]
... it offers more than preserveAspectRatio in SVG
20:33:45 [anthony_nz]
... because you can position the image inside where ever you want
20:33:48 [anthony_nz]
... use Calc even
20:33:58 [anthony_nz]
... not sure how this will effect the decisions made yesterday
20:34:28 [anthony_nz]
... it will definitely effect the case for img
20:34:54 [anthony_nz]
DH: In SVG there is the override for perserveAspectRatio if object fit is specified
20:35:04 [ed]
20:35:12 [anthony_nz]
ED: This is what Opera is doing at the moment
20:35:25 [anthony_nz]
... this is how we've implemented it so far
20:35:30 [anthony_nz]
... There are two things here
20:35:37 [anthony_nz]
... do we want to have object fit and object position in SVG
20:35:55 [anthony_nz]
... and perhaps get rid of preserveAspectRatio
20:36:03 [anthony_nz]
CM: Not sure about getting rid of
20:36:21 [anthony_nz]
... I mean we should have the properties apply to where preserveAspectRatio applies
20:36:45 [anthony_nz]
ED: Positioning inside a viewport is nice
20:36:52 [anthony_nz]
... for other things it's mostly the same
20:37:02 [anthony_nz]
... the difference being it's a property and not an attribute
20:37:57 [anthony_nz]
DS: Does it solve all the same cases that preserveAspectRatio solves or are there still uses for preserveAspectRatio?
20:38:28 [anthony_nz]
CM: How you can specify preserveAspectRatio defer for an external document
20:38:50 [anthony_nz]
ED: In most cases I think it is more useful to have it as a property and not an attribute
20:39:33 [anthony_nz]
DS: That would let us deprecate an attribute that is not very well understood and not often used
20:39:51 [anthony_nz]
AG: defer is not defined very well
20:40:00 [anthony_nz]
ED: Yes, and I've hardly seen anyone use it
20:40:28 [anthony_nz]
DS: So we can do everything with image-fit
20:41:00 [anthony_nz]
... except for defer behaviour in preserveAspectRatio
20:41:48 [anthony_nz]
CM: We could ask the CSS Working Group if they could add this functionality into object-fit properties
20:42:41 [ed]
20:42:48 [anthony_nz]
ED: For the image element in HTML it will have an effect because the default value for object-fit will be "fill"
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20:42:57 [anthony_nz]
... That means it will fill the entire element
20:43:11 [anthony_nz]
... That is the same as preserveAspectRatio "none"
20:43:20 [anthony_nz]
... I don't think that is a change from the tests we did yesterday
20:43:35 [anthony_nz]
CM: That's not the default behaviour of preserveAspectRatio
20:44:07 [anthony_nz]
ED: If you have an HTML img element and you reference an image with preserveAspectRatio set
20:44:13 [anthony_nz]
... it's not clear what happens
20:44:28 [anthony_nz]
.... I think that object-fit should override
20:45:04 [anthony_nz]
CM: In your proposal it seems like you want to add a new value "auto" to preserveAspectRatio
20:46:02 [anthony_nz]
JW: In CSS you don't have the knowledge that value is specified. The user should have to actively do something to say that the preserve aspect ratio is kept
20:46:06 [anthony_nz]
... by using defer
20:46:18 [anthony_nz]
... Without doing anything and saying that this overrides
20:46:37 [anthony_nz]
... All reference SVG content will have their preserve aspect ratio will be overridden
20:47:15 [anthony_nz]
CM: You want existing content that doesn't have preserveAspectRatio defined to render the same as if "none" is specified
20:47:26 [anthony_nz]
JW: Seems to me we might need a value of "auto
20:48:55 [anthony_nz]
DH: We might have to insert something to say override object-fit
20:50:08 [anthony_nz]
DS: There are circumstances that an author would want to change the original document
20:50:13 [ed]
20:50:32 [anthony_nz]
... It would be nice to override what the document thinks the display is
20:51:54 [anthony_nz]
CM: Even without SVG this object fit could effect how raster images are sized
20:52:12 [anthony_nz]
DH: Raster images don't react to their viewport where as SVG does
20:53:28 [anthony_nz]
JW: Having object-fit work on the SVG element the interaction there are even more complicated
20:53:41 [anthony_nz]
... because you have an actual value and it is unclear when it would override
20:53:49 [anthony_nz]
... which is why you'd want an "auto" value
20:54:24 [anthony_nz]
CM: I agree, I think we need an "auto" value
20:54:57 [anthony_nz]
ED: The argument that was made was you can set different defaults depending on the context it was used
20:55:29 [anthony_nz]
... for the Video element it has one default value, where as the default is different for SVG
20:55:51 [anthony_nz]
JW: It still doesn't solve the problem that I want to defer
20:56:06 [anthony_nz]
DS: So "auto" would be "defer" or "fill"
20:56:41 [anthony_nz]
CM: "auto" would mean just do whatever do what preserveAspecrRatio means in SVG currently
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20:58:54 [anthony_nz]
DH: I'd like to have "auto" be like "fill" or preserveAspectRatio "none"
20:59:24 [ed]
20:59:55 [anthony_nz]
ED: Here is the link to the test suite which has object-fit with SVG and some other test cases; Video, etc
21:01:37 [anthony_nz]
... if you have feedback on this, I'd be happy to hear about it
21:01:47 [anthony_nz]
CM: Does that mean that "auto" should be proposed?
21:02:04 [anthony_nz]
ED: If we think "auto" is useful we should go back to the CSS Working Group with that
21:02:38 [anthony_nz]
... The other issue I want to see resolved is to have the support for object-fit in SVG 2
21:04:25 [anthony_nz]
JW: I still find some of these values not intuitively obvious about that they do
21:05:42 [anthony_nz]
CM: Do we need to talk to them about "none" - was it dropped?
21:06:01 [anthony_nz]
ED: It says it is controversial
21:06:10 [anthony_nz]
... would need a good argument about why it is needed
21:07:59 [anthony_nz]
ROC: I'm a bit worried about it because image sizing is already complicated as it is. It is easy to see how to use it for raster images
21:08:13 [anthony_nz]
... but once you apply it to SVG images it starts getting complicated
21:09:07 [anthony_nz]
ED: I'd say it's easier to use than preserveAspectRatio
21:10:00 [anthony_nz]
ROC: If it's just an override it's not so bad
21:10:34 [anthony_nz]
RESOLUTION: SVG 2 will require object-fit and object-position
21:11:32 [anthony_nz]
ACTION: JWatt to Gather up issues regarding object-fit and it's applied to SVG and email CSS Working Group
21:11:32 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-3001 - Gather up issues regarding object-fit and it's applied to SVG and email CSS Working Group [on Jonathan Watt - due 2011-03-10].
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disconnecting the lone participant, +1.649.363.aaaa, in Team_(svg)20:22Z
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Attendees were +1.649.363.aaaa, tbah
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21:56:10 [anthony_nz]
Topic: Accessibility
21:56:41 [anthony_nz]
DS: SVG should be accessible but is not accessible
21:57:07 [anthony_nz]
... problems are inconsistency between implementations and the lack of normative behaviour of content
21:57:28 [anthony_nz]
... There are different kind of accessibility needs
21:57:57 [anthony_nz]
... [Goes through presentation]
22:18:32 [anthony_nz]
... my proposal is that we undertake to have an SVG Accessibility document that talks about how SVG can be authored
22:18:40 [anthony_nz]
... for accessibility
22:19:50 [anthony_nz]
... We wouldn't be starting from scratch we will be engaging people that already have knowledge and are already working in the field
22:21:01 [anthony_nz]
... There is an Australian thing call NVDA who would be interested in working with us
22:21:30 [anthony_nz]
CM: NVDA is open source
22:21:58 [anthony_nz]
DS: It was installed on every library in New Zealand
22:22:15 [anthony_nz]
CM: Do you see us collaborating with the accessibility groups on this
22:22:37 [anthony_nz]
DS: We'd talk with the people doing ARIA
22:23:32 [anthony_nz]
... I think we should start a different mailing list for SVG accessibility
22:24:53 [anthony_nz]
AD: If a lot of CAD drawings and other schematics go to SVG
22:25:00 [anthony_nz]
... they're going to need to be accessible
22:26:58 [anthony_nz]
ROC: SVG is not semantic and HTML has that same problem with Canvas
22:27:53 [anthony_nz]
DS: SVG is semantic in the sense withing the realm of mathematics. Outside that it's not.
22:28:22 [anthony_nz]
CM: We should take the top 10 types of graphics - information graphics
22:28:40 [anthony_nz]
... and define ARIA roles for them
22:29:22 [anthony_nz]
... Also include guidelines to say when doing a certain type of document uses certain roles and don't do certain things
22:29:45 [anthony_nz]
DS: It would be good to define how to make accessible graphics
22:29:59 [anthony_nz]
CM: What sort of things?
22:30:07 [anthony_nz]
DS: Colour choices
22:31:06 [anthony_nz]
... I feel making a general accessibility document would be good. Perhaps the first thing to do is make one for SVG
22:31:10 [anthony_nz]
... then extract that out
22:33:57 [anthony_nz]
... I've seen cases where different tones were played for the a bar chart to indicate the overall trend in the graph
22:34:03 [anthony_nz]
CM: Sonification
22:36:00 [anthony_nz]
RESOLUTION: We will start an accessibility document for SVG
22:36:07 [anthony_nz]
AG: So you'll be the editor Doug?
22:36:25 [anthony_nz]
DS: Yes, I can be one of the editors. I would like to bring in other people who know the field more deeply
22:36:39 [anthony_nz]
CM: I would like to get in the expertise
22:38:44 [anthony_nz]
Topic: z-index
22:39:09 [anthony_nz]
AD: Your proposal solves some of the problems
22:39:23 [anthony_nz]
... if you do enable-background="new" what do with the z-index
22:40:03 [anthony_nz]
... the concept of the stacking context solves this problem
22:40:09 [jwatt]
22:40:19 [anthony_nz]
... main problem is how it would fit in the rendering model
22:40:56 [anthony_nz]
... If you introduce a stacking context when a z-index is specified
22:41:02 [anthony_nz]
... it solves the problem just fine
22:41:11 [anthony_nz]
ED: I haven't read all of the details
22:41:26 [anthony_nz]
... I think it makes sense to add z-index support rather than layered-g
22:43:13 [anthony_nz]
AD: If you don't specify z-index then your performance impact is nothing really. Only if you specify z-index you need to walk the tree twice which isn't too bad
22:43:37 [anthony_nz]
DS: It's better from an authoring perspective
22:44:22 [anthony_nz]
AD: I wouldn't bother putting any note in until it's shown to be a problem
22:44:31 [anthony_nz]
... or a performance hit
22:45:22 [anthony_nz]
... but I wouldn't expect there to be a performance hit
22:45:29 [anthony_nz]
DS: This is an SVG 2 thing right?
22:45:32 [anthony_nz]
JW: Yes
22:45:51 [anthony_nz]
CM: If there are technical details we can work them out when we are writing up SVG 2
22:47:08 [anthony_nz]
RESOLUTION: We will add Jonathan Watt's z-index proposal to SVG 2
22:48:04 [anthony_nz]
JW: From what I remember CSS talks about how to deal with the background
22:48:33 [anthony_nz]
... and we're not going to get stroke and fill on different levels
22:48:58 [anthony_nz]
CM: The syntax of the property is just the same as CSS?
22:49:01 [anthony_nz]
JW: Yes
22:49:13 [anthony_nz]
... same definition, but with simplified instructions of how it works
22:50:22 [anthony_nz]
ACTION: JWatt to Add z-index proposal to SVG 2
22:50:22 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-3002 - Add z-index proposal to SVG 2 [on Jonathan Watt - due 2011-03-10].
22:51:12 [anthony_nz]
DS: Would be good to have a diagram showing the layers
22:51:39 [anthony_nz]
... for example showing a document without z-index and then a document with z-index
22:51:53 [anthony_nz]
... this would be good for authors to illustrate how the layers work in the document
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23:07:42 [anthony_nz]
JW: Filters create a new stacking context
23:08:25 [anthony_nz]
Topic: Text over-flow
23:08:29 [ed]
23:08:48 [anthony_nz]
ED: Some proposed wording for text-overflow in SVG
23:09:11 [anthony_nz]
... It's basically saying if my text is too long clip it or flow it
23:09:24 [jwatt]
s/Filters create/applying a filter to an element cause it to create/
23:09:26 [anthony_nz]
... This property is defined in CSS 3
23:09:37 [anthony_nz]
.. It's not defined there for SVG
23:09:46 [anthony_nz]
... but it is something we could apply to SVG elements
23:10:15 [anthony_nz]
... My proposal is to add to SVG text element and SVG textArea (in Tiny 1.2)
23:10:48 [anthony_nz]
ROC: It wouldn't take effect if you just had a clipping thing that contains text
23:11:29 [anthony_nz]
... If it doesn't have a width it doesn't do anything
23:11:49 [anthony_nz]
... HTML 5 Canvas Text has something useful
23:12:12 [anthony_nz]
... What they do is they say here's the text and here's the width. If it's too big shrink the width
23:12:21 [anthony_nz]
... and increase the height
23:12:34 [anthony_nz]
ED: You can already do that with text-length attribute
23:12:41 [anthony_nz]
... This is different
23:12:50 [jwatt]
23:12:57 [anthony_nz]
... one of the differences is this is for blocks of text
23:13:29 [anthony_nz]
CM: What would happen with tspans and absolute position of glyphs
23:13:33 [anthony_nz]
ED: Good question
23:13:43 [anthony_nz]
... this proposal doesn't solve all of the issues
23:14:05 [anthony_nz]
... I have at least 10 that I could think of
23:14:06 [anthony_nz]
... So we would need to solve these
23:14:15 [anthony_nz]
... I don't have any strong opinion on how we solve these
23:14:48 [anthony_nz]
CM: With the CSS one what happens when you get selection range?
23:15:13 [anthony_nz]
ROC: Do you talk about the placement of the glyphs with BiDi
23:15:22 [anthony_nz]
ED: Yes, I did
23:15:40 [anthony_nz]
... same as CSS
23:15:47 [anthony_nz]
ROC: I'm not so happy with the behaviour, but it is the same between the two
23:15:52 [anthony_nz]
... CSS and SVG
23:17:00 [anthony_nz]
ED: In order to get the ellipsis you need to specify overflow
23:17:35 [anthony_nz]
CM: I still think that SVG does need some sort of layout things in it
23:17:54 [anthony_nz]
... SVG as it is don't need to worry about overflow property
23:18:07 [anthony_nz]
ED: I think the ellipsis thing is the one thing people want
23:18:25 [anthony_nz]
AD: There is high demand for it in the IPTV world
23:18:58 [anthony_nz]
ED: textArea might be a bit simpler because it already has width and height
23:19:09 [anthony_nz]
AD: It's really ugly to do this in script
23:20:04 [anthony_nz]
CM: You can imagine all different types of ways squashing the text in
23:20:20 [anthony_nz]
... I would like to see font size adjustment to fit things
23:20:30 [anthony_nz]
ED: That would be more a textLength thing
23:22:57 [anthony_nz]
CM: What happens when you have both textLenght specified and width?
23:23:09 [anthony_nz]
ED: If the textLength is longer than the width you'd get ellipsis I guess
23:23:18 [anthony_nz]
CM: I was thinking the other way
23:23:24 [anthony_nz]
... to ellipsis replacement first
23:23:52 [anthony_nz]
... so you'll never get overflowing text using textLength?
23:24:00 [anthony_nz]
ED: No, it will just squash it up
23:24:17 [anthony_nz]
CM: In CSS what happens with styling of the ellipsis?
23:25:03 [anthony_nz]
ROC: In CSS it's either you use the style of the block which declares the overflow but it may have changed
23:25:18 [anthony_nz]
CM: It seems like you want to do closest common ancestor
23:25:27 [anthony_nz]
... but we don't need to solve these issues now
23:25:37 [anthony_nz]
ED: I'd like to see if this can be place in SVG 2
23:26:26 [anthony_nz]
AD: In textArea it should wrap so you don't show an ellipsis. But we've had feedback from editors that it is really ugly
23:26:37 [anthony_nz]
... they want a character by character horizontal scroll
23:27:21 [anthony_nz]
... For the simple case where you have a login box which just does a character by character scroll we never did that
23:27:43 [anthony_nz]
... We had to word wrap it and they had to live with it
23:28:01 [anthony_nz]
... It really restricts the textArea as an editable control
23:28:40 [anthony_nz]
CM: Why not have the functionality on text?
23:28:52 [anthony_nz]
AD: textArea was suppose to be flow container
23:28:59 [anthony_nz]
... that allowed glyphs etc.
23:29:07 [anthony_nz]
... The whole chapter is defined
23:29:22 [anthony_nz]
... we defined all the algorithms for it
23:35:07 [anthony_nz]
... and it was reviewed by the experts in Indesign and they liked the model
23:36:15 [anthony_nz]
DS: This is something that alot of people want solved
23:36:23 [anthony_nz]
s/alot/a lot/
23:37:33 [anthony_nz]
AD: I'm strongly in favour of text-overflow
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23:37:49 [anthony_nz]
RESOLUTION: We will add text-overflow in SVG 2
23:38:33 [anthony_nz]
ACTION: Erik to Add text-overflow in SVG 2
23:38:33 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-3003 - Add text-overflow in SVG 2 [on Erik Dahlström - due 2011-03-10].
23:39:32 [anthony_nz]
CM: The whitespace property, does that have any effect on us?
23:39:37 [anthony_nz]
ED: Not sure
23:40:00 [anthony_nz]
CM: Can we move away from using XML whitespace and use the whitespace property?
23:40:03 [anthony_nz]
ED: That would be nice
23:41:06 [anthony_nz]
DS: How about we say that XML space doesn't do what it did in SVG 1.1
23:41:16 [anthony_nz]
ROC: So drop support for xml:space?
23:41:24 [anthony_nz]
... how much content will break?
23:41:36 [anthony_nz]
CL: None
23:41:46 [anthony_nz]
ROC: Can we remove it from the test suite?
23:42:43 [ed]
s/ED: Not sure/ED: No/
23:43:19 [anthony_nz]
RESOLUTION: We drop xml:space from SVG 2 and remove the relating tests from the SVG 1.1. test suite
23:43:52 [anthony_nz]
ROC: Should warn authors that in SVG 1.1 that this is being deprecated
23:44:21 [anthony_nz]
ACTION: Chris to Remove the tests from the SVG 1.1 tests suite that relate to xml:space
23:44:21 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-3004 - Remove the tests from the SVG 1.1 tests suite that relate to xml:space [on Chris Lilley - due 2011-03-10].
23:44:41 [anthony_nz]
ACTION: JWatt to Draft a proposal to use CSS whitespace in SVG 2
23:44:42 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-3005 - Draft a proposal to use CSS whitespace in SVG 2 [on Jonathan Watt - due 2011-03-10].
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01:46:16 [pdengler]
I haven't seen any activity here, are you still out to dinner
01:52:37 [roc]
we just got back --- from lunch
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01:53:16 [heycam]
Zakim, room for 3?
01:53:17 [Zakim]
ok, heycam; conference Team_(svg)01:53Z scheduled with code 26631 (CONF1) for 60 minutes until 0253Z
01:53:39 [Zakim]
Team_(svg)01:53Z has now started
01:53:46 [Zakim]
+ +1.649.363.aaaa
01:55:56 [heycam]
Scribe: Cameron
01:55:59 [heycam]
ScribeNick: heycam
01:56:11 [heycam]
Topic: buffered-rendering
01:57:43 [roc]
I booked nine single-person kayaks, the tide is in the morning so we need to be there at 9:30am :
01:58:12 [roc]
I told them it might only be eight people in the end
02:01:12 [heycam]
s/buffered-rendering/Next F2F/
02:01:22 [heycam]
02:02:39 [heycam]
CM: jun mailed the list about meeting at the same time/place as csswg in tokyo, in june
02:02:50 [heycam]
... I think we should meet then
02:02:58 [heycam]
AG: google offered meeting space just on the same dates as the csswg meeting
02:03:05 [heycam]
... for the remaining days, canon or kddi can host
02:04:19 [heycam]
DS: maybe some csswg people can stay on for extra days to have meetings with us, rather than eat into their meeting time
02:05:18 [heycam]
ACTION: Chris to tell CSSWG that we want to meet them! In Tokyo in June.
02:05:18 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-3006 - Tell CSSWG that we want to meet them! In Tokyo in June. [on Chris Lilley - due 2011-03-11].
02:05:34 [heycam]
DS: we have colocated in the past with LGM
02:05:38 [heycam]
CL: which is in montreal this year
02:05:43 [heycam]
DS: with SVG Open, which is in Boston
02:06:01 [heycam]
CL: SVG Open is late this year, and in Boston.
02:06:11 [heycam]
... two weeks later is TPAC
02:06:15 [heycam]
AG: there's one week gap between them
02:06:46 [heycam]
DS: I think the Thursday is the workshop, for SVG Open
02:07:00 [heycam]
CL: maybe we could have part of the F2F before SVG Open, then part of it on Thursday/Friday after
02:07:11 [heycam]
... so we can concentrate on feedback we get from SVG Open
02:07:58 [heycam]
DS: one other thing with SVG Open, is that W3C is thinking about having a night, like in Paris
02:08:07 [heycam]
... where there'll be some presentations on teaching SVG, showcasing it, to the general public
02:08:13 [heycam]
... so that's probably going to happen the evening before SVG Open
02:08:30 [heycam]
... I imagine either MS or W3C would be able to provide meeting space there
02:08:50 [heycam]
... while LGM is a good opportunity to touch place with the open source community, and is fun, I'm not sure is as critical as SVG Open
02:08:57 [heycam]
... how many meetings are we planning on having?
02:09:55 [heycam]
CL: we are meant to attend TPAC
02:10:43 [heycam]
... wht aabout Thursday Friday in Boston, after SVG Open
02:10:52 [heycam]
... then 2 days at TPAC
02:12:55 [heycam]
[discussion about Tokyo meeting days]
02:19:20 [heycam]
CL: we could meet on Fri June 3 with CSS WG, take the weekend off, then have our normal 5 day meeting on the following week
02:19:44 [heycam]
ACTION: Anthony to coordinate with Fujisawa-san to organise hosting for Tokyo SVG F2F
02:19:44 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-3007 - Coordinate with Fujisawa-san to organise hosting for Tokyo SVG F2F [on Anthony Grasso - due 2011-03-11].
02:21:10 [heycam]
AG: how about the late year F2F?
02:21:36 [heycam]
CL: go to SVG Open, Mon-Wed, do Thurs-Fri SVG WG meeting
02:21:40 [heycam]
... then the week in between is free
02:21:46 [heycam]
... following week is TPAC
02:22:36 [heycam]
AG: I probably can't make the final Friday of the Tokyo F2F
02:22:44 [heycam]
DS: let's just make it Mon-Thurs on that week then
02:24:52 [heycam]
ACTION: Chris to liaise with MS for the F2F meeting around SVG Open
02:24:52 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-3008 - Liaise with MS for the F2F meeting around SVG Open [on Chris Lilley - due 2011-03-11].
02:32:23 [AD]
AD has joined #svg
02:35:18 [pdengler]
Could we consider the week of the 26th for the Face to Face in ENgland?
02:38:01 [shepazu]
pdengler: we are planning to have 2 days after SVG Open, then the next 2 days at TPAC a week later
02:38:26 [shepazu]
could microsoft host the F2F after SVG Open?
02:39:54 [shepazu]
pdengler: the problem is, we really need to meet at TPAC
02:41:08 [heycam]
Topic: buffered-rendering
02:41:12 [jwatt]
02:41:48 [heycam]
JW: we discussed this a bit, roc alex and myself
02:42:08 [heycam]
... everyone decided that some sort of user control of off screen caching would just end up being misused, or used improperly
02:42:14 [heycam]
... and we'd need to disable it or not recognise it anyway
02:42:26 [heycam]
... implementations can generally detect when things are moved around in a way that would benefit frmo caching
02:42:30 [heycam]
... so caching would be automatic
02:42:34 [heycam]
02:42:52 [pdengler]
I will look into hosting the f2f yes,
02:42:57 [heycam]
... one thing that will be an issue is animations, where the start of the animation is immediate and smooth
02:43:14 [heycam]
... that's always going to be a problem with an automatic caching mechanism that detects motion and decides to cache
02:43:30 [heycam]
... if you do some gesture on a webpage that should animate things on the screen quickly, you want it to react immediately
02:43:40 [heycam]
... the whole purpose of using offscreen caching is beause you need responsiveness
02:44:00 [heycam]
... but you might have a couple of frames where it's sluggish
02:44:24 [heycam]
... we used it in a previous job, but in that situation we were able to correct misuses of buffered-rendering
02:44:37 [heycam]
... in general I think user control of offscreen caching we shouldn't do, at this stage
02:45:01 [heycam]
DH: sounds like your situation where it would be slow initially, on animation start, since it's declarative animation you could detect this
02:45:21 [heycam]
JW: sometimes, but if your begin is, so in response to a user interaction, and if you have lots of these things in the document, and you don't want to cache them all, you still have this issue
02:45:25 [heycam]
AD: also if it's all script
02:45:55 [heycam]
DH: for declarative, you could render the offscreen rendering on the very first sample of the animation
02:46:00 [heycam]
... we currently recompute the world on every sample
02:46:16 [heycam]
JW: there are two parts that make it slow
02:46:22 [heycam]
... there are the first 1 or 2 paints, when you figure out it's moving
02:46:29 [heycam]
... and the other one is the slow rendering into the offscreen buffer
02:46:51 [heycam]
CM: because these are complex objects you want to buffer?
02:46:52 [heycam]
JW: yes
02:49:09 [heycam]
AD: you could have a limit, say 1 or 2 buffered-renderings in the document, or a certain MB of cache
02:50:53 [heycam]
ED: we've implemented it, and already seen misuse of it
02:51:18 [heycam]
... it says in the spec that if you update the subtree, it says you should rerender it, but it doesn't say when
02:51:25 [heycam]
... there's a bit of free room there for experimenting
02:51:32 [heycam]
... i think it will be hard to harmonize implementations there
02:51:48 [heycam]
AD: what was the motivation for proposing this?
02:51:55 [heycam]
JW: i occasionally hear people requesting it
02:52:06 [heycam]
... I wanted it for one document I was writing
02:52:38 [heycam]
ED: I think it's fine for closed systems, but not sure it's good for the web as a whole
02:56:23 [heycam]
RESOLUTION: We won't add buffered-rendering to SVG 2 unless implementor feedback indicates that it is needed
02:56:43 [ChrisL]
ChrisL has joined #svg
02:57:51 [heycam]
Topic: Connectors
02:57:57 [jwatt]
s/we were able to correct misuses of buffered-rendering/we were able to correct misuses of buffered-rendering because this was a closed system/
02:58:01 [Zakim]
disconnecting the lone participant, +1.649.363.aaaa, in Team_(svg)01:53Z
02:58:05 [Zakim]
Team_(svg)01:53Z has ended
02:58:05 [Zakim]
Attendees were +1.649.363.aaaa
02:59:21 [jwatt]
s/you figure out it's moving/ou figure out it's moving, which you can avoid if the animation is declarative/
02:59:45 [heycam]
DS: [presents some slides]
02:59:45 [jwatt]
s/slow rendering into the offscreen buffer/slow rendering into the offscreen buffer, which you can't avoid even with declarative animation/
03:03:09 [heycam]
DS: connectors would be a straight line between two nodes
03:03:16 [heycam]
... you can style their appearance
03:03:23 [heycam]
... there would be a list of connectors for navigation purposes
03:03:29 [heycam]
... they wouldn't dynamically position nodes in the graph
03:03:34 [heycam]
... no concept of weighting on edges
03:03:38 [heycam]
... it wouldn't do line routing
03:03:51 [heycam]
... it wouldn't allow automatic drag-and-drop
03:08:14 [heycam]
[rest of the presentation]
03:09:03 [heycam]
DH: seems useful
03:09:10 [heycam]
RO: it seems like a step towards graph layout
03:09:48 [heycam]
... and edge routing
03:09:59 [heycam]
DS: you can draw the lines yourself, the straight line is the default
03:15:42 [heycam]
CM: the part I like the most is the automatic connection to the closest point on a shape
03:15:54 [heycam]
... the semantic part I'm not sure about, without having a whole aria vocab
03:16:01 [heycam]
JW: regarding routing, how about having routing points?
03:17:20 [heycam]
... yes you can have polylines
03:18:04 [heycam]
CM: would it be a separate connector element? how about just sticking some attributes on a <path>?
03:18:44 [heycam]
DS: i like the syntax of a separate element
03:19:15 [heycam]
Topic: SVG Integration
03:20:33 [heycam]
DS: I'll give you a brief overview of the document as it stands
03:20:39 [birtles]
03:20:41 [heycam]
... we have "referencing modes for svg"
03:20:54 [heycam]
... they are ways for specifications to say they are using svg in particular contexts
03:20:59 [heycam]
... e.g. css might use a particular referencing mode for images
03:21:07 [heycam]
... html might use one for image and another for iframe
03:21:21 [heycam]
... it describes svg in terms of some specific capabilities -- animation, external references, [...]
03:21:38 [heycam]
... we've talked about having one or two more, but i won't go into the individual referencing modes
03:21:57 [heycam]
RO: why not define those flags as independent things? you might want a combination of flags that's not one of the preset modes.
03:22:20 [heycam]
DS: we could. i did it this way because people in the past have asked "how do I reference SVG, what's a handy name for a set of common flags"
03:22:30 [heycam]
... so we can say it's using "secure animated modes"
03:22:32 [heycam]
CL: you could do both
03:22:46 [heycam]
RO: or you could make the flags normative, and the modes informative
03:22:56 [heycam]
DS: yes, well the modes would be normative, but yes
03:23:43 [heycam]
... network admins, once they understand animated script-less svg is safe for them, they don't have to think about it any more
03:24:13 [heycam]
[shows examples from the spec]
03:24:27 [heycam]
... it also talks about foreign content in svg
03:24:40 [heycam]
... how you can comine -- we don't explicitly talk about using html in foreignObject, in the svg spec
03:24:47 [heycam]
... in SVG Integration we decided we'd actually talk about that
03:24:57 [heycam]
... talking to implementors about considerations about that
03:25:03 [heycam]
DH: might be good to mention plugins and scripts
03:25:12 [heycam]
... i think you can only have plugins in foreignObject in svg
03:25:20 [heycam]
... maybe in the "no script" mode it would mean no plugins
03:25:31 [heycam]
DS: also talks about svg in foreign content
03:25:47 [heycam]
... it also talks about how to extend svg
03:26:06 [heycam]
... this was so that OASIS/ODF would know how best to integrate SVG as a first class citizen
03:26:18 [heycam]
... then we wanted to have a list of all elements/attributes/properties in SVG
03:26:22 [heycam]
... which could be referenced by HTML
03:26:54 [heycam]
... that's all that's in there now. we've talked about other things, compound document scenarios that Tav's talked about
03:27:02 [heycam]
... e.g. svg as a button in an HTML page, or in an img, etc.
03:27:06 [heycam]
... tav will help me draw up some of that
03:27:19 [heycam]
... maybe much of that should be defined by html, it seems it's not addressing that at the moment
03:28:13 [heycam]
... it's worth pointing out specific modes if we think they are useful, e.g. a mode that we know should be used for css backgrounds, we should predefine it
03:28:25 [heycam]
DH: audo/video also
03:28:39 [heycam]
DS: individually, since audio is more annoying
03:28:41 [heycam]
03:28:48 [heycam]
DH: and it's also a subset of video, since video comes with audio
03:29:10 [heycam]
DS: earlier on we talked about how filters would be used in html content, etc.
03:29:16 [heycam]
... but those are in their own specifications at this point
03:29:27 [heycam]
CM: and I think that's going to work fine
03:29:29 [heycam]
DS: I agree
03:30:03 [heycam]
... ultimately I don't know if this should be a part of SVG 2
03:30:08 [heycam]
... I think it might be worth maintaining on its own
03:30:09 [heycam]
CL: I agree
03:30:13 [heycam]
... it's an interface document
03:30:30 [heycam]
... we should publish a FPWD
03:30:51 [heycam]
DS: i'd like to add the flag idea from roc and the audio/video/plugins comments from daniel, first
03:31:56 [heycam]
... i'd estimate probably by the end of the month it'd ready for publication
03:34:23 [heycam]
RESOLUTION: We will publish SVG Integration after Doug addresses feedback
03:36:35 [heycam]
BB: [some comments about whether to allow TimeEvents to be dispatched in animations in SVG-as-img mode]
03:39:35 [heycam]
Topic: pointer-events processing and security
03:39:45 [heycam]
RO: [summarises the issue raised a while ago]
03:39:52 [heycam]
... we need to have something around pointer-events
03:40:05 [heycam]
... we do need to be able to have pointer events, make things transparent when alpha=0
03:40:08 [heycam]
... but in a controlled way
03:46:43 [heycam]
... so maybe pointer-events should consider to intersect the entire <image> when the image is cross origin
03:46:56 [heycam]
... so elementFromPoint would always return that element, if the coordinates were within the bounds of that image
03:47:15 [heycam]
... there is also the properites on SVGUseElement, if you are doing cross origin using
03:47:18 [heycam]
... you want to block those
03:49:33 [heycam]
this is ISSUE-2071
03:49:50 [heycam]
ISSUE: SVG2 should block cross origin SVGUseElement property access
03:49:51 [trackbot]
Created ISSUE-2407 - SVG2 should block cross origin SVGUseElement property access ; please complete additional details at .
03:51:06 [heycam]
Topic: rechartering
03:51:12 [heycam]
DS: I've been working on the charter document
03:51:18 [heycam]
... addressed some comments from Cameron
03:52:19 [shepazu]
03:55:38 [ChrisL]
ChrisL has joined #svg
03:55:51 [ChrisL]
rrsagent, here
03:55:51 [RRSAgent]
04:17:50 [anthony_nz]
Thank you Mozilla for hosting a productive meeting!
04:18:09 [heycam]
trackbot, end telcon
04:18:09 [trackbot]
Zakim, list attendees
04:18:09 [Zakim]
sorry, trackbot, I don't know what conference this is
04:18:10 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, please draft minutes
04:18:10 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate trackbot
04:18:11 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, bye
04:18:11 [RRSAgent]
I see 8 open action items saved in :
04:18:11 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: JWatt to Gather up issues regarding object-fit and it's applied to SVG and email CSS Working Group [1]
04:18:11 [RRSAgent]
recorded in
04:18:11 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: JWatt to Add z-index proposal to SVG 2 [2]
04:18:11 [RRSAgent]
recorded in
04:18:11 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: Erik to Add text-overflow in SVG 2 [3]
04:18:11 [RRSAgent]
recorded in
04:18:11 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: Chris to Remove the tests from the SVG 1.1 tests suite that relate to xml:space [4]
04:18:11 [RRSAgent]
recorded in
04:18:11 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: JWatt to Draft a proposal to use CSS whitespace in SVG 2 [5]
04:18:11 [RRSAgent]
recorded in
04:18:11 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: Chris to tell CSSWG that we want to meet them! In Tokyo in June. [6]
04:18:11 [RRSAgent]
recorded in
04:18:11 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: Anthony to coordinate with Fujisawa-san to organise hosting for Tokyo SVG F2F [7]
04:18:11 [RRSAgent]
recorded in
04:18:11 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: Chris to liaise with MS for the F2F meeting around SVG Open [8]
04:18:11 [RRSAgent]
recorded in