15:19:44 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #rdf-wg
15:19:44 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2011/03/02-rdf-wg-irc
15:21:26 <LeeF> Hard to disagree with that
15:21:47 <LeeF> I think I will never get used to reading the "@" sigil in JSON-LD correctly, alas
15:22:05 <mischat> manu: in your trig looking examples, in the example "Graph Changes Over Time" for example, you have trailing "'s 
15:22:06 <mischat>  "2011-02-26T00:00:00+0000"^^<http://www.w3.org/2001/XMLSchema#dateTime>
15:22:10 <mischat> "
15:22:43 <hsbauer> Scribe:  Scott Bauer
15:22:44 <manu> @LeeF yeah - we could change it to something else? Every time I've changed the key that establishes the subject, somebody complains about it :P
15:23:02 <hsbauer> ScribeNick: hsbauer
15:23:20 <hsbauer> Meeting:  RDF WG Teleconference
15:24:14 <LeeF> oh i wasn't complaining, manu, i'm just not used to it
15:24:17 <LeeF> I think it's kind of clever
15:25:28 <hsbauer> is david wood chair today?
15:25:49 <manu> LeeF, it's annoying at first, and then you get used to it. '@' was supposed to symbolize - "This object can be found at..." or "This object describes the data at..." or "This object exists at..."
15:29:12 <hsbauer> Chair: David Wood
15:29:49 <hsbauer> zakim, this will be SW_RDFWG
15:29:49 <Zakim> ok, hsbauer; I see SW_RDFWG()11:00AM scheduled to start in 31 minutes
15:33:18 <mischat> um, turtle does allow "." before "]" when writing predicateObject lists, as per rule 7 in the turtle submission thing. The correct (turtle'd version of your example) http://pastebin.com/K7D9LQ36 (obviously this is less the graph bit you would get in trig). 
15:42:48 <mischat> ok may do that afterwards :)
15:46:36 <webr3> webr3 has joined #rdf-wg
15:51:38 <Zakim> SW_RDFWG()11:00AM has now started
15:51:41 <gavinc> gavinc has joined #rdf-wg
15:51:45 <Zakim> +Scott_Bauer
15:52:49 <FabGandon> FabGandon has joined #rdf-wg
15:52:59 <ivan> rrsagent, set log public
15:53:57 <OlivierCorby> OlivierCorby has joined #rdf-wg
15:54:16 <PatHayes> PatHayes has joined #rdf-wg
15:54:32 <Zakim> +davidwood
15:54:44 <Zakim> +FabGandon
15:55:00 <Zakim> +gavinc
15:55:12 <gavinc> zakim, mute me
15:55:12 <Zakim> gavinc should now be muted
15:56:52 <davidwood> Meeting: RDF Working Group
15:56:57 <davidwood> Chair: David Wood
15:57:28 <Zakim> +PatH
15:57:33 <manu> zakim, code?
15:57:33 <Zakim> the conference code is 73394 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.26.46.79.03 tel:+44.203.318.0479), manu
15:57:44 <Zakim> +??P9
15:57:47 <manu> zakim, I am ??P9
15:57:47 <Zakim> +manu; got it
15:57:47 <ivan> zakim, dial ivan-voip
15:57:49 <Zakim> ok, ivan; the call is being made
15:57:49 <Zakim> +Ivan
15:57:54 <AndyS> AndyS has joined #rdf-wg
15:57:55 <davidwood> Scribe: Scott Bauer
15:57:58 <Zakim> +Sandro
15:58:12 <ivan> zakim, mute me
15:58:12 <Zakim> Ivan should now be muted
15:58:23 <davidwood> ScribeNick: hsbauer
15:58:32 <mbrunati> mbrunati has joined #rdf-wg
15:58:35 <pfps> pfps has joined #rdf-wg
15:58:40 <davidwood> Agenda: http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/Meetings:Telecon2011.03.02
15:58:44 <Zakim> +??P10
15:58:56 <mischat> zakim, P10 is me
15:58:56 <Zakim> sorry, mischat, I do not recognize a party named 'P10'
15:59:02 <Zakim> +Peter_Patel-Schneider
15:59:06 <AZ> AZ has joined #rdf-wg
15:59:07 <mischat> zakim, ??P10 is me
15:59:07 <Zakim> +mischat; got it
15:59:10 <mischat> zakim, mute me
15:59:10 <Zakim> mischat should now be muted
15:59:22 <AlexHall> AlexHall has joined #rdf-wg
15:59:25 <Zakim> +??P12
15:59:32 <Zakim> +LeeF
15:59:33 <AndyS> zakim, ??P12 is me
15:59:33 <Zakim> +AndyS; got it
15:59:49 <Zakim> +corby
16:00:03 <PatHayes> Im not hearing the breathing.
16:00:04 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
16:00:07 <Zakim> +Alex_Hall
16:00:11 <webr3> zakim, +[IPcaller] is me
16:00:11 <Zakim> sorry, webr3, I do not recognize a party named '+[IPcaller]'
16:00:12 <Zakim> +AZ
16:00:18 <webr3> zakim, IPcaller is me
16:00:18 <Zakim> +webr3; got it
16:00:28 <AlexHall> zakim, Alex_Hall is me
16:00:28 <Zakim> +AlexHall; got it
16:00:49 <davidwood> Zakim, who is here?
16:00:49 <Zakim> On the phone I see Scott_Bauer, davidwood, FabGandon, gavinc (muted), PatH, manu, Ivan (muted), Sandro, mischat (muted), Peter_Patel-Schneider, AndyS, LeeF, corby, webr3, AlexHall,
16:00:52 <Zakim> ... AZ
16:00:54 <Zakim> On IRC I see AlexHall, AZ, pfps, mbrunati, AndyS, PatHayes, OlivierCorby, FabGandon, gavinc, webr3, RRSAgent, cygri, hsbauer, LeeF, ivan, mischat, SteveH, danbri, davidwood, yvesr,
16:00:57 <Zakim> ... manu, manu1, Zakim, sandro, trackbot
16:00:58 <Zakim> +Guus_Schreiber
16:01:14 <SteveH__> SteveH__ has joined #rdf-wg
16:01:26 <Guus> Guus has joined #rdf-wg
16:01:30 <Zakim> +zwu2
16:01:51 <AZ> zakim, mute me
16:01:51 <Zakim> AZ should now be muted
16:02:19 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
16:02:27 <Zakim> +cygri
16:02:27 <cmatheus> cmatheus has joined #rdf-wg
16:02:33 <danbri> regrets from me; at mini-NoTube F2F in Bristol (although not as I feared travelling so will follow in IRC)
16:02:51 <mbrunati> zakim, who is here
16:02:51 <Zakim> mbrunati, you need to end that query with '?'
16:03:05 <mbrunati> zakim, who is here?
16:03:05 <Zakim> On the phone I see Scott_Bauer, davidwood, FabGandon, gavinc (muted), PatH, manu, Ivan (muted), Sandro, mischat (muted), Peter_Patel-Schneider, AndyS, LeeF, corby, webr3, AlexHall,
16:03:08 <Zakim> ... AZ (muted), Guus_Schreiber, zwu2, [IPcaller], cygri
16:03:10 <Zakim> On IRC I see cmatheus, Guus, SteveH__, AlexHall, AZ, pfps, mbrunati, AndyS, PatHayes, OlivierCorby, FabGandon, gavinc, webr3, RRSAgent, cygri, hsbauer, LeeF, ivan, mischat, SteveH,
16:03:15 <Zakim> ... danbri, davidwood, yvesr, manu, manu1, Zakim, sandro, trackbot
16:03:20 <sandro> regrets: danbri, souri
16:03:24 <mbrunati> zakim, [IPCaller] is me
16:03:24 <Zakim> +mbrunati; got it
16:03:26 <zwu2> zwu2 has joined #rdf-wg
16:03:36 <manu> zakim, who is on the call?
16:03:36 <Zakim> On the phone I see Scott_Bauer, davidwood, FabGandon, gavinc (muted), PatH, manu, Ivan (muted), Sandro, mischat (muted), Peter_Patel-Schneider, AndyS, LeeF, corby, webr3, AlexHall,
16:03:40 <Zakim> ... AZ (muted), Guus_Schreiber, zwu2, mbrunati, cygri
16:03:45 <SteveH__> Zakim, what's the code?
16:03:45 <AZ> AZ is for Antoine Zimmermann
16:03:48 <Zakim> the conference code is 73394 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.26.46.79.03 tel:+44.203.318.0479), SteveH__
16:03:58 <zwu2> zakim, mute me
16:03:58 <Zakim> zwu2 should now be muted
16:04:13 <hsbauer> regrets: danbri, yvesr, nickh
16:04:14 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
16:04:21 <SteveH> Zakim, [IPcaller] is me
16:04:21 <Zakim> +SteveH; got it
16:04:28 <davidwood> Agenda is at http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/Meetings:Telecon2011.03.02
16:04:45 <sandro> sandro has changed the topic to: RDF WG Meeting 2011-03-02  http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/Meetings:Telecon2011.03.02
16:04:59 <pfps> minutes look fine to me
16:05:06 <AndyS> Regrets for last time: AndyS
16:05:07 <hsbauer> david: proposes to accept last weeks minutes
16:05:12 <ivan> +1
16:05:15 <FabGandon> +1
16:05:18 <AZ> +1
16:05:23 <mbrunati> +1
16:05:26 <sandro> RESOLVED: accept last week's minutes
16:05:41 <hsbauer> david: action item review
16:05:43 <davidwood> Action items pending review: http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/actions/pendingreview
16:05:43 <trackbot> Sorry, couldn't find user - items
16:05:47 <PatHayes> ignore this, testing.
16:06:04 <sandro> manu, http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/Meetings:Telecon2011.03.02
16:06:47 <hsbauer> ... pending review alex has completed use case, scott has completed use case
16:06:51 <AZ> zakim, unmute me
16:06:51 <Zakim> AZ should no longer be muted
16:07:11 <hsbauer> ... peter, antoine both completed use cases
16:07:16 <ivan> q+
16:07:35 <davidwood> ACTION-1: close
16:07:35 <trackbot> ACTION-1 Provide a use case format notes added
16:07:42 <sandro> close action-1
16:07:42 <trackbot> ACTION-1 Provide a use case format closed
16:07:48 <Zakim> +??P2
16:07:52 <davidwood> close action-8
16:07:52 <trackbot> ACTION-8 Provide a use case for graphs closed
16:07:56 <davidwood> close action-9
16:07:56 <trackbot> ACTION-9 Provide a Revelytix use case for graphs closed
16:07:59 <davidwood> close action-13
16:07:59 <trackbot> ACTION-13 separate ontology named graph use case closed
16:08:02 <davidwood> close action-14
16:08:02 <trackbot> ACTION-14 Provide use cases for graphs in the wiki closed
16:08:14 <ivan> q-
16:08:16 <hsbauer> ... closing 8, 13, 14 and 9
16:08:46 <AZ> yversr must be him
16:08:57 <hsbauer> ... open action 4,5 
16:08:59 <davidwood> yvesr: Is action-5 complete?
16:09:06 <yvesr> davidwood: i started on it
16:09:09 <davidwood> ok
16:09:11 <yvesr> davidwood: we still need to polish it
16:09:17 <sandro> s/yvesr:/yvesr,/
16:09:19 <hsbauer> ... action 6, still open.  
16:09:35 <mischat> Zakim, unmute me
16:09:35 <Zakim> mischat should no longer be muted
16:09:35 <sandro> mischat?
16:09:41 <yvesr> ivan: yes
16:09:46 <yvesr> ivan: but still a draft
16:09:51 <hsbauer> ... action 7, 11 still open
16:10:02 <mischat> zakim, mute me
16:10:02 <Zakim> mischat should now be muted
16:10:30 <hsbauer> ... what's our procedure for raised issues
16:10:48 <hsbauer> ... will call out issues open them and discuss briefly
16:12:00 <hsbauer> ... is turtle the same as sparkle 1.0 -- issue one.
16:12:04 <webr3> could close the issue by saying "no" and responding with all differences
16:12:25 <hsbauer> zakim, who is talking
16:12:25 <Zakim> I don't understand 'who is talking', hsbauer
16:12:39 <hsbauer> david:  issue 2 
16:13:14 <sandro> issue-2?
16:13:14 <trackbot> ISSUE-2 -- What existing proposal, if any, should be the starting point/default for the JSON design? -- open
16:13:14 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/issues/2
16:13:39 <hsbauer> ... What existing proposal should be the starting point for the JSON issue
16:14:20 <Zakim> -FabGandon
16:14:28 <Zakim> +FabGandon
16:14:42 <hsbauer> ... issue 3 also opened
16:15:08 <hsbauer> ... issue of handling action item.  after pleading it mark it as pending review.
16:15:44 <ivan> April 13 14 in Amsterdam, at CWI
16:15:46 <davidwood> agendum: FTF1
16:15:49 <davidwood> http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/F2F1
16:15:57 <hsbauer> ... F2F solid dates and location.  Group can start making travel plans.
16:16:18 <sandro> q+
16:16:22 <hsbauer> ... Place is TWI in Amsterdam 13th and 14th of march.
16:16:28 <ivan> s/TWI/CWI/
16:16:32 <zwu2> april?
16:16:37 <hsbauer> ... Ivan will take an action itme.
16:16:46 <ivan> april
16:16:48 <sandro> http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/F2F1
16:16:50 <ivan> s/march/April/
16:16:50 <davidwood> action: Guus to make hotel suggestions for FTF1
16:16:50 <trackbot> Created ACTION-15 - Make hotel suggestions for FTF1 [on Guus Schreiber - due 2011-03-09].
16:16:54 <hsbauer> ... correction 13th and 14th of April
16:17:11 <sandro> ack sandro
16:17:30 <AZ> zakim, mute me
16:17:30 <Zakim> AZ should now be muted
16:17:39 <davidwood> agendum: Turtle TF
16:17:39 <ivan> zakim, unmute me
16:17:39 <Zakim> Ivan should no longer be muted
16:17:45 <davidwood> agendum: JSON TF
16:17:52 <davidwood> agendum: Graphs TF
16:17:59 <hsbauer> zakim, who is talking?
16:18:09 <zwu2> zakim, unmute me
16:18:09 <Zakim> zwu2 should no longer be muted
16:18:11 <Zakim> hsbauer, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: PatH (16%), Sandro (25%), Ivan (34%)
16:18:14 <davidwood> agendum: Discuss Pat Hayes' Proposal for Graphs
16:18:14 <zwu2> q
16:18:16 <zwu2> q+
16:18:20 <davidwood> agendum: AOB
16:18:23 <davidwood> next agendum
16:18:37 <davidwood> ack zwu2
16:18:55 <davidwood> next agendum
16:19:19 <hsbauer> zwu2:  who is in charge of setting the meeting place?
16:19:50 <LeeF> I may need to send regrets for the first F2F as it conflicts with the Bio IT conference in Boston, which I am semi-committed too
16:19:54 <hsbauer> david:  team contacts set the first f2f out of expediency
16:19:55 <LeeF> s/too/to
16:20:11 <hsbauer> ... 3 next will take input for those
16:20:17 <hsbauer> ... this one is fixed
16:20:22 <gavinc> If I remember right there was no remote presence ability at CWI?
16:20:30 <ivan> q+
16:20:36 <ivan> ack zwu2 
16:20:42 <ivan> ack zwu
16:21:05 <davidwood> ack ivan
16:21:06 <zwu2> zakim, mute me
16:21:07 <Zakim> zwu2 should now be muted
16:21:19 <hsbauer> I will also not be able to attend the first f2f
16:21:29 <hsbauer> zakim, who is talking?
16:21:40 <Zakim> hsbauer, listening for 10 seconds I could not identify any sounds
16:21:54 <hsbauer> zakim, who is talking
16:21:54 <Zakim> I don't understand 'who is talking', hsbauer
16:22:00 <hsbauer> zakim, who is talking?
16:22:11 <Zakim> hsbauer, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: Scott_Bauer (16%)
16:22:11 <sandro> ivan: We will have remote audio for the F2F
16:22:27 <sandro> ivan: we may be able to do some low-quality video (eg skype)
16:22:48 <LeeF> q+
16:22:59 <davidwood> ack LeeF
16:23:30 <hsbauer> Leef:  can we start on an agenda for f2f
16:23:30 <davidwood> q?
16:23:49 <hsbauer> zakim, who is talking
16:23:49 <Zakim> I don't understand 'who is talking', hsbauer
16:23:53 <hsbauer> zakim, who is talking?
16:24:04 <Zakim> hsbauer, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: Sandro (31%)
16:24:18 <davidwood> next agendum
16:24:31 <ivan> -> http://homepages.cwi.nl/~steven/amsterdam.html is a good page to convince sandro et al to hang around...
16:24:44 <hsbauer> Topic: turtle task force
16:25:24 <hsbauer> david:  who will be participating.  discussion of mailing list asking for notes on this
16:25:53 <hsbauer> ... important task forces have some level of self organization.
16:26:06 <hsbauer> ... have someone to speak for them.
16:26:09 <AndyS> Step 1 -- people add names to TTL TF page
16:26:35 <davidwood> Input material to Turtle: http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/Inputs_Turtle
16:26:41 <hsbauer> ... most important to settle issue number one and deal with input material
16:27:07 <hsbauer> zakim, who is talking?
16:27:18 <Zakim> hsbauer, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: davidwood (19%), Guus_Schreiber (19%), Ivan (10%)
16:27:31 <mischat> http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/TF_interests
16:27:50 <hsbauer> Guus: can we ask for volunteers for spokespersons
16:27:57 <ivan> q+
16:28:30 <ivan> q-
16:28:53 <hsbauer> ivan:  I have contacted dave, no response.  Eric T. is a possibility.
16:29:10 <SteveH> s/Eric T./Eric P./
16:29:41 <hsbauer> zakim, who is talking?
16:29:51 <sandro> hsbauer, that was Nathan
16:29:52 <Zakim> hsbauer, listening for 11 seconds I heard sound from the following: davidwood (74%), AndyS (8%), Ivan (3%)
16:30:09 <sandro> webr3=Nathan, just to confuse you
16:30:30 <AZ> AZ has joined #rdf-wg
16:30:30 <AndyS> q+
16:30:43 <hsbauer> afraid I missed the comment can someone summarize
16:30:45 <davidwood> ack andys
16:31:03 <gavinc> Would like to participate in the Turtle TF but don't really feel comfortable being the representative for it?
16:31:21 <hsbauer> andys:  json task force has a list of names.  Is there a difference between interest and participation.
16:31:45 <hsbauer> david:  this may have not been a clear process for differentating.
16:31:54 <manu> q+ to volunteer to represent JSON TF
16:32:11 <hsbauer> Topic: JSON
16:32:22 <davidwood> JSON TF: http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/TF-JSON
16:32:26 <hsbauer> david:  we have participants, inputs and questions
16:32:52 <hsbauer> manu: I'm interested in acting as spokeperson, but may have a conflict of interest.
16:33:06 <PatHayes> I dont see a conflict of interest, quite the contrary.
16:33:16 <nathan> likewise, no conflict imo
16:33:32 <hsbauer> david: personal opinion, editing spec and coordinating task force are not a conflict of interest
16:33:42 <manu> ACTION: Manu to summarize positions that folks have taken via the mailing list onto the wiki in an attempt to figure out which document should be used as a starting point for the RDF in JSON work.
16:33:42 <trackbot> Created ACTION-16 - Summarize positions that folks have taken via the mailing list onto the wiki in an attempt to figure out which document should be used as a starting point for the RDF in JSON work. [on Manu Sporny - due 2011-03-09].
16:33:53 <PatHayes> Nice try, but you got lumbered.
16:34:22 <hsbauer> manu: taking an action item to summarize postions on the mailing list for json
16:35:00 <hsbauer> manu:  are we discussing task force tech issues here or just summarize issues here.
16:35:11 <hsbauer> david: up to the task force.
16:35:24 <Guus> q+
16:35:29 <manu> q-
16:35:32 <hsbauer> ... clarify participants, coordinators is current issue
16:35:44 <manu> q+ to note that JSON-TF will need a separate call.
16:35:48 <ivan> q+
16:36:14 <davidwood> ack Guus
16:36:16 <hsbauer> manu: json will need a separate call for a time
16:36:18 <manu> q-
16:36:52 <hsbauer> Guus:  tech discussions are ok, but will be busy with admin for the first few weeks.
16:37:12 <davidwood> ack manu
16:37:12 <sandro> q?
16:37:17 <nathan> q+ to discuss tracker for TFs
16:37:20 <davidwood> ack ivan
16:37:25 <manu> q?
16:37:49 <davidwood> ack nathan
16:37:49 <Zakim> nathan, you wanted to discuss tracker for TFs
16:38:19 <hsbauer> ivan: setting up a separate call is possible
16:38:20 <manu> +1 to separate tracker entries by product
16:38:26 <AZ> +1 to ivan
16:38:33 <gavinc> +1 and they are already setup: http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/products
16:38:34 <PatHayes> +1 to ivan
16:38:49 <hsbauer> nathan:  can issues be opened by the task force?
16:38:54 <ivan> q-
16:38:57 <sandro> +1 let TF's open issues for themselves
16:39:08 <sandro> q+
16:39:14 <zwu2> I just signed up for the graph tf
16:39:38 <hsbauer> david: this is ok
16:40:15 <sandro> q-
16:40:26 <sandro> topic: Graphs TF
16:40:28 <hsbauer> david: tracker will take care of tracking for all
16:40:39 <hsbauer> Topic: Graph Task Force
16:40:51 <sandro> s/Graph/Graphs/
16:41:13 <sandro> s/topic: Graphs TF//
16:41:20 <hsbauer> david:  summarize immediate issues
16:41:40 <hsbauer> zakim, who is talking?
16:41:44 <manu> I really liked Sandro's g-box, g-snap, g-text e-mail
16:41:47 <sandro> it's LeeF
16:41:51 <Zakim> hsbauer, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: AndyS (24%), LeeF (100%)
16:41:54 <Guus> suggest to have a wiki page with terms and their defs, as synthesis of ongoing discussion
16:42:27 <hsbauer> Leef:  discussions on serializations, sharing, multiple blank nodes.
16:43:01 <mischat> http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/TF-Graphs-UC
16:43:02 <hsbauer> zakim, who is talking?
16:43:13 <Zakim> hsbauer, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: davidwood (4%), Ivan (4%)
16:43:43 <hsbauer> manu: httpRange-14 bound to come up at some point
16:43:59 <nathan> that's ISSUE-57 on the TAG now, and AWWSW TF covers too (I, nathan, work w/ JAR on that)
16:44:04 <manu> We should coordinate with Jonathan Rees on the W3C TAG and the SPARQL WG
16:44:06 <PatHayes> +1 to speaker re. sparql
16:44:16 <hsbauer> Leef: should liase with sparql working group asap
16:44:41 <sandro> lee: SPARQL WG is moving to Last Call with its notion of Graphs
16:44:55 <AlexHall> what is the specific issue wrt graphs and SPARQL wg?
16:45:00 <hsbauer> who is talking?
16:45:03 <manu> Folks will want to re-read: http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/TF-Graphs-UC ... really good stuff in there.
16:45:25 <PatHayes> Suggest that biggest issue might turn out to be, does a GET get the whole graph or can you find out how big the damn thing is first? That is a real issue, most of them are nomenclature.
16:45:41 <FabGandon> q+ to talk about Linked Data and SPARQL HTTP-GET on named graph
16:45:50 <davidwood> q?
16:45:54 <manu> PatHayes, HEAD /graph ?
16:46:00 <hsbauer> Leef:  if issues related to sparql wg are raised some contact should be made
16:46:01 <davidwood> ack FabGandon
16:46:01 <Zakim> FabGandon, you wanted to talk about Linked Data and SPARQL HTTP-GET on named graph
16:46:14 <LeeF> http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/docs/http-rdf-update/#http-get
16:46:24 <nathan> PatHayes, agree, there's also if the <u> refers to both the "subject" and the "graph" - tis a gotcha
16:46:38 <PatHayes> manu, I know , but it feels like a dangerous issue where one WG might close a door that another WG needs to have open.
16:46:43 <hsbauer> zakim, who is talking?
16:46:55 <Zakim> hsbauer, listening for 10 seconds I could not identify any sounds
16:47:07 <cygri> q+
16:47:19 <AndyS> Also: http://www.w3.org/TR/sparql11-update/#def_graphstore (from SPARQL 1.1 Update)
16:47:26 <davidwood> +1 to PatHayer
16:47:30 <sandro> FabGandon: I think there's a mismatch about graph vs resource here, when you dereference.
16:47:32 <sandro> q+
16:47:32 <hsbauer> FabGandon:  some differences between practices especially around dereferencing.
16:47:36 <davidwood> s/Pathayer/PatHayes/
16:48:01 <PatHayes> +1 to speaker.
16:48:03 <davidwood> ack cygri
16:48:09 <hsbauer> ... what people are doing when defrerencing a uri
16:48:19 <manu> I tend to see that most people get information about the resource they're dereferencing - the graph is the representation about the resource.
16:48:33 <hsbauer> cygri: opmitting what happens when you look up a uri
16:48:39 <hsbauer> thanks ivan
16:48:57 <manu> perhaps, that's naive - but that seems to be the data people are publishing now w/ RDFa.
16:49:01 <nathan> so, follow your nose is a pita we need to clarify soon, especially w/ graphs uris, lod, issue-57 on tag and so forth - not in charter? can we get away with /not/ getting consensus and agrement
16:49:17 <manu> and I really don't like 303 redirects for most use cases :/
16:49:27 <hsbauer> cygri: looks up a uri on a person which leads to a document.  one does a redirect and another gives an rdf:desc with is a graph
16:49:52 <PatHayes> Is a graph an IR? A g-box surely is, right?
16:49:54 <hsbauer> ... keep in mind that you shouldn't use the same uri for identifying person and graph.
16:49:59 <davidwood> ack sandro
16:50:01 <nathan> PatHayes, yes exactly
16:50:21 <hsbauer> zakim, who is talking?
16:50:27 <cygri> hsbauer, it's sandro
16:50:32 <Zakim> hsbauer, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: Sandro (70%), AndyS (4%), Ivan (20%)
16:50:47 <hsbauer> sandro:  graph is used with considerable ambiguity
16:50:51 <manu> +1 to Sandro's g-box, g-snap, g-text viewpoint
16:51:14 <hsbauer> ... proposed three terms in practice most often
16:51:32 <davidwood> In my view, a g-box is an IR.
16:51:33 <hsbauer> ... g-box is the container  what sparql means
16:51:42 <hsbauer> ... g-snap 
16:51:53 <PatHayes> Ahem. That is what the RDF specs say a graph is. 
16:51:56 <hsbauer> ... g-text serialization
16:52:17 <manu> q+ to note preference for Sandro's g-box/g-snap/g-text proposal.
16:52:31 <LeeF> davidwood, I believe that is the view of the SPARQL RDF Dataset HTTP Protocol as well
16:52:33 <PatHayes> BTW, I entirely agree with sandro's analysis and his ghastly but usable terminology.
16:52:44 <davidwood> q?
16:52:48 <davidwood> ack manu
16:52:48 <Zakim> manu, you wanted to note preference for Sandro's g-box/g-snap/g-text proposal.
16:52:48 <sandro> sandro: explaining http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-wg/2011Feb/0092.html
16:53:01 <hsbauer> manu:  like sandro's email.  clarifies what we are talking about.
16:53:28 <cygri> q+ to ask about "graph" in RDF Concepts and RDF Semantics
16:53:30 <PatHayes> Lets agree that g-snaps are RDF graphs, ie abstract sets. 
16:53:33 <hsbauer> ... the terms may change but this is what we are talking about.
16:53:36 <davidwood> ack cygri
16:53:36 <Zakim> cygri, you wanted to ask about "graph" in RDF Concepts and RDF Semantics
16:54:06 <webr3> PatHayes, +1 yes lets, and not a REST "value" at some time - purely an RDF concept, abstract graph, set of triples
16:54:13 <hsbauer> cygri: rdf semantics g-snap?  need clarification.
16:54:40 <hsbauer> ... triples or model theoritic interpretation.
16:54:53 <hsbauer> ... do these documents say the same thing.
16:54:57 <hsbauer> thanks
16:55:20 <hsbauer> PatHayes: model theory doesn't depend on the graph syntax. 
16:55:40 <sandro> s/model/the model/
16:55:44 <hsbauer> ...  can be adapted
16:56:03 <hsbauer> ... we wanted a not to concrete definition
16:56:36 <hsbauer> ... feeling that we didn't want a central model attached to a particular style
16:57:27 <hsbauer> ... g-snaps instances of g-box -- apparently the mathematical version of the g-box
16:57:29 <manu> I thought g-snaps were supposed to be an non-serialized snapshot of a g-box
16:57:46 <hsbauer> ... g-box and g-text fit in the web arch story.
16:57:47 <webr3> manu, yes correct, abstract set of triples
16:58:04 <sandro> q?
16:58:19 <hsbauer> ... g-text is a serialization of the rdf-graph my understanding.
16:58:20 <cygri> thanks
16:58:26 <AZ> totally right, Pat
16:58:44 <mbrunati> .)
16:59:01 <manu> g-box is the REST Information Resource, it's state at a point in time is a g-snap... if you do an HTTP GET on the IR, you get a g-text.
16:59:06 <hsbauer> david: action item for pat to summarize the issue in an email
16:59:41 <manu> so, effectively graphs are just another type of IR - fits really well with Web Architecture.
16:59:48 <davidwood> q?
16:59:49 <gavinc> ACTION Gavin to try and produce a digram based on the g-box, g-snap, g-text model from Sandro's email and this conversation
16:59:49 <trackbot> Created ACTION-17 - Try and produce a digram based on the g-box, g-snap, g-text model from Sandro's email and this conversation [on Gavin Carothers - due 2011-03-09].
17:00:11 <hsbauer> david:  moving on from graph issue.
17:00:18 <webr3> I'll write up action 7 now then <yay>
17:00:25 <hsbauer> Topic: F2f agenda
17:01:03 <hsbauer> david: issues on our timeline
17:01:22 <hsbauer> ... first deliverable due in May.
17:01:27 <AndyS> q+
17:01:33 <ivan> q+
17:01:37 <sandro> q+ to clarify documents
17:01:46 <hsbauer> ... work out tf starting points and organization
17:01:55 <davidwood> ack AndyS
17:02:13 <sandro> andy: "Recommendation Set" ?
17:02:27 <hsbauer> andys: what do you mean by the rdf recommendation set?
17:02:39 <hsbauer> david: check the Charter
17:02:51 <davidwood> 4.1 Milestones
17:02:51 <davidwood> This section simply refers to “RDF Recommendation Set” as a collection of W3C Recommendations that together define the new version of RDF. The exact editorial structure of these documents is to be defined by the Working Group
17:02:55 <AndyS> q-
17:03:01 <PatHayes> Guus just vanished
17:03:03 <davidwood> ack ivan
17:04:06 <hsbauer> ivan: we have to clarify.  what is the work ahead of us. explict charter work, remaining work from last time.
17:04:43 <PatHayes> There are several bugs in the sematnics document that need to be fixed. The sheer editing will take time, measured in at least weeks maybe months, given the need to check all changes.
17:04:53 <hsbauer> david: I agree.  Ivan would you take action item to start the wiki for the f2f
17:05:20 <davidwood> action: Ivan to establish a wiki page for the FTF1 agenda and list initial content
17:05:20 <trackbot> Created ACTION-18 - Establish a wiki page for the FTF1 agenda and list initial content [on Ivan Herman - due 2011-03-09].
17:05:32 <davidwood> q?
17:05:38 <davidwood> ack Sandro
17:05:38 <Zakim> sandro, you wanted to clarify documents
17:06:04 <hsbauer> sandro:  no clear notion about how much change needs to be done to existing documents
17:06:15 <hsbauer> ... turtle is a new document
17:06:25 <hsbauer> ... are the graphs a new document
17:06:35 <hsbauer> ... json also a new document
17:06:35 <PatHayes> It seems clear that Concepts will need at least a thorough editing.
17:06:54 <PatHayes> Right.
17:07:26 <AndyS> Don't see how "TriG" fits [if appropriate] but /me assuming that it can fit in TTL if need be.
17:07:38 <hsbauer> david: updates needed, propose continue with existing and add turtle and json
17:07:50 <sandro> sandro: strawman proposal --  revise each existing document, add two more, JSON and Turtle
17:07:51 <manu> +1 to Sandro's suggestion on creating new TURTLE and RDFinJSON documents, updating the rest.
17:08:12 <PatHayes> +1 to sandro
17:08:18 <webr3> manu, RDF in JSON or RDFable JSON ? v different
17:08:20 <manu> AndyS - I'd expect TRiG to be shoved into TURTLE.
17:08:25 <AndyS> q+ to ask about N-Triples
17:08:51 <PatHayes> galapagos?
17:08:59 <gavinc> Can it have a cape?
17:09:03 <manu> webr3 - RDFable JSON (not fond of just shoving RDF triples into a JSON format)
17:09:15 <hsbauer> zakim, who is talking?
17:09:26 <Zakim> hsbauer, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: SteveH (1%), davidwood (29%), PatH (22%), Sandro (19%), Ivan (5%)
17:09:29 <davidwood> ack AndyS
17:09:29 <Zakim> AndyS, you wanted to ask about N-Triples
17:09:37 <sandro> sandro: Maybe the quads-turtle can be superturtle, with some extra features
17:10:08 <hsbauer> AndyS: not precisely defined for n-triples can it be under this banner
17:10:17 <PatHayes> Sounds like we need a 'various triples formats' document. Can this be in the primer?
17:10:46 <gavinc> +1 as N-Triples and N-Quads as a subset of Turtle
17:10:47 <hsbauer> ... hoping n-triples refinement in scope
17:11:09 <hsbauer> sandro: keep n-triples around
17:11:10 <webr3> we need registered media type for n-triples
17:11:12 <gavinc> One mime type would be nice.
17:11:17 <hsbauer> zakim, who is talking?
17:11:18 <AlexHall> I think every implementation of N-Triples treats it as a subset of Turtle anyways, so I don't see much danger there
17:11:28 <Zakim> hsbauer, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: davidwood (9%), Sandro (45%), AndyS (46%), Ivan (33%)
17:11:41 <AndyS> <s> <p> <o> . is different in N-Triples and Turtle 
17:11:44 <PatHayes> utf-8 vs ascii is NICE??
17:11:45 <SteveH> AlexHall, no, many treat it differently
17:12:01 <gavinc> Yeah, as Turtle is UTF-8 and NTriples is ASCII
17:12:21 <webr3> ascii-7 bit, all /text tree is us-ascii 7-bit ..
17:12:48 <sandro> andy: n-triples doesn't resolve uris, so <s> is a valid URI from its perspective, "s".
17:12:49 <hsbauer> AndyS:  n-triples doesn't say anything about resolving uris.
17:13:09 <mischat> s/resolving uris/resolving relative uris/
17:13:10 <hsbauer> david: gavin raised mime-type registration
17:13:20 <davidwood> q?
17:13:28 <hsbauer> ivan: unfinished mime-type reg in turtle
17:13:46 <AndyS> Very keen to not have N-Triples being text/plain
17:14:01 <sandro> +1 andy
17:14:07 <SteveH> +1 to AndyS 
17:14:19 <hsbauer> david: closing for business.  Adjourning.
17:14:34 <hsbauer> ... reminder to participate in task forces.
17:15:26 <hsbauer> ... scribe for next week  Christopher Matthews?
17:15:27 <cmatheus> correct.  yes.
17:15:33 <cmatheus> I
17:15:40 <hsbauer> ... matheus
17:15:44 <gavinc> AndyS, yeah: text/plain, application/n-triples, application/x-n-triples, text/n-triples, text/x-n-triples ... ah, NTriples
17:15:48 <cmatheus> I don't have full telephone access today.
17:16:01 <Zakim> -manu
17:16:02 <zwu2> thanks
17:16:03 <PatHayes> Bye.
17:16:04 <ivan> zakim, drop me
17:16:04 <Zakim> Ivan is being disconnected
17:16:04 <mbrunati> bye
17:16:05 <Zakim> -Ivan
17:16:05 <Zakim> -cygri
17:16:06 <Zakim> -Sandro
17:16:06 <Zakim> -mischat
17:16:06 <AZ> bye
17:16:08 <Zakim> -corby
17:16:10 <Zakim> -zwu2
17:16:11 <Zakim> -PatH
17:16:14 <Zakim> -webr3
17:16:17 <Zakim> -SteveH
17:16:18 <Zakim> -Peter_Patel-Schneider
17:16:20 <Zakim> -Guus_Schreiber
17:16:22 <Zakim> -gavinc
17:16:26 <Zakim> -davidwood
17:16:28 <Zakim> -mbrunati
17:16:32 <Zakim> -AlexHall
17:16:34 <Zakim> -AndyS
17:16:36 <Zakim> -??P2
17:16:40 <Zakim> -FabGandon
17:16:42 <Zakim> -AZ
17:16:44 <mbrunati> mbrunati has left #rdf-wg
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17:20:03 <Zakim> -Scott_Bauer
17:20:05 <Zakim> -LeeF
17:20:06 <Zakim> SW_RDFWG()11:00AM has ended
17:20:08 <Zakim> Attendees were Scott_Bauer, davidwood, FabGandon, gavinc, PatH, manu, Ivan, Sandro, Peter_Patel-Schneider, mischat, LeeF, AndyS, corby, AZ, webr3, AlexHall, Guus_Schreiber, zwu2,
17:20:10 <Zakim> ... cygri, mbrunati, SteveH
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17:22:56 <sandro> LeeF, it seems unlikely to me that update/5.5 GET is the only place in the SPARQL documents this touches on.....   (and that text is fairly inscrutable to me, fwiw)
17:23:43 <sandro> I mean, the term "named graph" is highly, highly problematic.
17:24:05 <sandro> (in the face of update)
17:28:53 <davidwood> +1 Sandro
17:50:33 <AndyS> sandro : Named g-box?  Agrees in concept with SPARQL Update and works as terminology for SPARQL Query (which does not quite say that but as things ar immutable there it's hard to tell).
17:51:44 <sandro> Yeah, I think so, Andy -- except I think we need a better term than "g-box" before Rec.   :-(
17:52:17 <sandro> (but I'm happy to have us not arguing about terms unclear we're very clear about the concepts we're trying to name)
17:52:26 <sandro> s/unclear/until/
17:53:09 <AndyS> +1 in fact the "box" language works quite well as it's a place to put things (g-snaps).  But yes - in the end we need a better name.
17:54:24 <sandro> I mean, maybe it is a "graph box" or even a "g-box".    *shrug*     That seems like a decision for late in the first face-to-face, I think.    But maybe that's too late for SPARQL.
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17:55:10 <AndyS> Yes - it's in SPARQL 1.0
17:56:13 <sandro> Well, I think in 1.0 you can finesse the issue more by not having update.    
17:56:58 <sandro> Anyway, for 1.1 I think it would be excellent to align the terminology with something RDF WG likes, which I think we can do.   In particular, I think it's editorial, so I think we can probably make the changes as late as during-CR.    Although sooner would be better.
18:03:15 <AndyS> Ack - focus on the GraphStore defn (minor) and what HTTP Update says (major).  
18:05:58 <sandro> The first time I coded up an RDF API (2001), I called a g-box a "pool".   The second time (2002), I called it a "kb" (for knowledge base).    I guess it's also called a "graph", "store", and "model".   
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19:09:31 <webr3> or "box" or "container" or "mutable graph" or "triple store" or "named graph" ?
19:26:51 <manu> I call our g-boxes "Eduardo", but only because it makes our engineers uncomfortable.
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