20:30:18 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #ws-ra
20:30:18 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2011/03/01-ws-ra-irc
20:30:20 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs public
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20:30:22 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be WSRA
20:30:22 <Zakim> ok, trackbot, I see WS_WSRA()3:30PM already started
20:30:23 <trackbot> Meeting: Web Services Resource Access Working Group Teleconference
20:30:23 <trackbot> Date: 01 March 2011
20:30:40 <Zakim> +Wu_Chou
20:31:05 <Katy> Katy has joined #ws-ra
20:31:16 <Zakim> +[Microsoft]
20:31:55 <Zakim> + +44.196.281.aaaa
20:32:17 <Zakim> +asoldano
20:32:32 <Ram> Ram has joined #ws-ra
20:32:33 <Zakim> +Yves
20:34:26 <Zakim> +Tom_Rutt
20:34:50 <BobF> agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-ws-resource-access/2011Mar/0000.html
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20:35:27 <Katy> Topic: Appoval of Agenda
20:35:36 <dug> scribe: Katy
20:36:35 <Katy> Bob: Goal for CR vote 15th March
20:36:58 <Katy> Topic: Approval of minutes of F2F
20:37:08 <Katy> Resolution: Minutes approved
20:37:24 <dug> bots are sleep today
20:37:35 <dug> s/sleep/asleep/
20:37:44 <Katy> Topic: http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=12093
20:38:35 <asoldano> yes
20:38:42 <Katy> Bob: Any objection to accepting proposal in comment no 1 of proposal.
20:39:57 <Katy> Doug: Describes proposal
20:41:38 <Katy> Gil: Feel uneasy about this because assigning semantic meaning to the empty string
20:42:43 <Katy> ... How about only making the Get the special case
20:43:01 <Katy> Doug: What if someone wants to use the empty string as id value
20:43:13 <Katy> Gil: That's associating special value to ""
20:43:34 <li> li has joined #ws-ra
20:43:40 <Katy> ... we could have special string that means "unidentified" and special case that
20:44:00 <Katy> ... within the W3C namespace
20:44:49 <trutt> q+
20:44:57 <Katy> Doug: I don't think this is special semantics as it's indicated no identifier
20:45:00 <BobF> act tom
20:45:05 <BobF> ack tr
20:45:07 <Katy> Bob: Empty string might mean no value
20:46:17 <Katy> Tom: What if there's an overloaded identifier that happens to be ""?
20:47:15 <Katy> Gil: The point is a symbol to identify no useful Id - whether it's a "" or special URI
20:48:44 <Katy> Doug: Initial problem was that the client doesn't know whether it needs an identifier or not.
20:49:14 <Katy> Gil: So when types with identifier defined those must be used, I am thinking of types with no identifier
20:49:20 <Katy> ... specified
20:52:46 <Katy> Gil: Problem is we don't know all the dialects there may be some types where we don't have an identifier.  We should have a way to put these things without an identifier if people choose not to - but it's their problem
20:52:55 <Katy> Doug: But that kills interop
20:52:59 <trutt> q+
20:53:04 <dug> q+
20:53:12 <Katy> Gil: disagree
20:53:18 <BobF> ack tr
20:53:35 <Katy> Tom: In what scenario would someone not have an id for their metadata section?
20:53:57 <BobF> ack d
20:55:13 <Katy> Doug: If you know enough about the metadata to 'put' it, you must put the appropriate identifier.  If it's optional then the clients always need to ask for everything
20:55:44 <Katy> ... either mandate the use of identifier or there's no point in it.
20:56:17 <trutt> q+
20:56:27 <BobF> ack t
20:56:57 <Katy> q+
20:57:18 <BobF> ack k
20:58:05 <trutt> If you require an id, but allow it to be "", it will all work
20:58:51 <Katy> Katy: Id should not be optional or clients would have to assume it's not there
20:58:55 <BobF> that means that the set of values for the id attribute is empty
20:59:58 <Katy> Bob: Empty identifier means set of values is empty/not present (in terms of XSLT test)
21:00:01 <trutt> "" is a value, it will test for presence
21:00:25 <Dave> Dave has joined #ws-ra
21:00:45 <Yves> optimization or not, absent and null value must be described
21:01:13 <dug> q+
21:01:15 <Dave> Dave Snelling is lurking on tthe IRC only.
21:01:24 <trutt> "" is not a null value, it is a valid string  "empty string"  , not null
21:01:38 <BobF> zakim, I would like to report a lurker
21:01:38 <Zakim> I don't understand 'I would like to report a lurker', BobF
21:02:27 <trutt> if you test for presence of the value with "", it will be true in xpath.  To test for "" you have to actually do a sting compare operation with "" as the compared value
21:02:37 <Katy> Gil: We define enumerated set of dialects we know about.  What we are discussing is, amongst those dialects, can you leave off the identifier?  I agree with Doug that we can't allow folk to leave the Id off for the cases where the dialects/ids are defined.
21:02:57 <BobF> ack d
21:03:56 <gpilz> gpilz has joined #ws-ra
21:04:21 <trutt> q+
21:04:35 <BobF> Java will return an empty string if there is no value defined
21:04:40 <BobF> ack tr
21:04:49 <Katy> Doug: To ease confusion factor, I would like to require the identifier to be set (to "" or syntax string) else folk will think that absence = wildcard.
21:05:51 <gpilz> q+
21:06:14 <BobF> ack gp
21:06:30 <Katy> Tom: Schema point, technically speaking a default would work but it would cause more problems to have a default than to use "" - the latter makes it easier for xpath
21:07:18 <Katy> Gil: I think we have agreed the following 1) Put needs the type; 2) in some cases value of the type is default which=""
21:07:49 <Katy> ... we need to say whether it is legal to put empty string for a dialect that mex provides an identifier to
21:07:54 <trutt> q+
21:08:06 <Katy> Doug: I agree, I think we have come full circle back to the proposal
21:08:44 <BobF> ack tr
21:08:52 <dug> <a foo='1'/>   @foo != @foo2
21:09:02 <dug> oops, <a foo''/>
21:09:20 <dug> according to xml spy anyway
21:09:22 <gpilz> - make @Identifier a required attribute of mex:MetadataSection - if a metadata type does not have any useful data to use as the @Identifier   value then it MUST use "" for the value - keep @Identifier optional on the mex:GetMetadata operation - mex:GetMetadata w/o @Identifier (not "") means match ALL @Identifiers
21:09:24 <gpilz> oops
21:09:28 <trutt> q+
21:10:19 <BobF> ack tr
21:10:46 <gpilz> - make @Identifier a required attribute of mex:MetadataSection
21:10:46 <gpilz> - you MAY use "" as the value of @Identifier except for those Dialects defined by WS-MEX
21:10:46 <gpilz> - keep @Identifier optional on the mex:GetMetadata operation
21:10:46 <gpilz> - mex:GetMetadata w/o @Identifier (not "") means match ALL @Identifiers
21:11:09 <BobF> q?
21:11:11 <dug> q+
21:11:37 <BobF> ack dug
21:12:15 <wuchou> wuchou has joined #ws-ra
21:12:24 <Katy> Doug: I will work on this text before the next meeting when we can review
21:12:56 <Katy> Bob: Do we agree directionally so Bob can work on final text
21:13:26 <Katy> Action: Doug to write up text based on comment one with some changes to 2nd bullet
21:13:26 <trackbot> Created ACTION-177 - Write up text based on comment one with some changes to 2nd bullet [on Doug Davis - due 2011-03-08].
21:14:05 <Ram> q+
21:14:24 <Katy> Topic: http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=12112
21:14:38 <BobF> ack ram
21:14:44 <Katy> Ram: Currently collecting feedback, will have information in the next few days
21:15:09 <Katy> ... Wait until next call prior to confirming final answer
21:15:17 <Katy> Bob: Defer to the next call
21:15:53 <dug> Puffin
21:15:59 <Katy> Topic: http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=11776
21:16:21 <Ram> q+
21:16:44 <BobF> ack ram
21:17:24 <Katy> Ram: No further testing required?
21:18:19 <Ram> q+
21:18:40 <BobF> ack ram
21:18:43 <Katy> Bob: We will be producing new specs so we should crank through all the tests again
21:19:17 <Katy> Ram: Previous mex issue need aditional testing?
21:19:51 <Katy> Doug: Difficult to answer because the issue is clarifying the semantics
21:20:03 <Katy> ... so to some may be no change
21:20:28 <Katy> Ram: Recommend that we don't do unecessary testing as it has big resource issues
21:21:18 <gpilz> q+
21:21:37 <Yves> we definitely have to test it, but that's what CR is all about
21:21:41 <Katy> Bob: I would prefer to be conservative in our testing, even if just syntax change
21:21:54 <dug> q+
21:22:05 <Katy> Yves: Any changes to element needs to be re-tested if after CR
21:22:12 <BobF> ack gp
21:24:40 <BobF> ack dug
21:25:57 <Katy> Bob: If we change the spec, we should retest.  Now we have gone through the process once, it should be easier
21:26:10 <Katy> ... consider this when accepting the proposals
21:26:53 <Katy> ... we could defer 11776 so we can decide whether the test impact too big
21:27:45 <dug> http://www.w3.org/2002/ws/ra/edcopies/wsevd.html#EVD_MIME
21:27:48 <Katy> Topic: Misc issues
21:28:14 <Katy> Bob: need to apply for the MIME type.  
21:28:22 <Katy> ... done in link above
21:28:23 <trutt> given example xml doc 
21:28:25 <trutt> <?xml version="1.0" encoding="UTF-8"?> 
21:28:27 <trutt> <doc>     
21:28:29 <trutt> <element atr1="">         ""     </element>  
21:28:30 <trutt> </doc>  
21:28:31 <trutt> The following xpath returns the element: 
21:28:33 <trutt> //element[@atr1=""]  
21:28:34 <trutt> the following xpath does not return the element (no match) //element[@atr1=" "]  
21:28:36 <trutt> Thus the "" is not comparable with " "
21:28:52 <Katy> Topic: Items at risk
21:30:03 <Katy> Bob: Items at risk are no longer at risk as we have adequate implementations for WS-Eventing and WS-Enum
21:30:28 <trutt> q+
21:31:04 <BobF> ack tr
21:31:35 <Zakim> -Tom_Rutt
21:31:50 <trutt> I just lost my connection , is the meeting over?
21:32:00 <Ram> not yet
21:32:06 <Ram> We are talking about next meeting.
21:32:07 <BobF> talking about next meeting
21:32:24 <Katy> Topic: Next week's meeting
21:33:00 <dug> q+
21:33:07 <BobF> ack dug
21:33:08 <Katy> Bob: Clash with cloud management meeting on 8th so we will have next meeting on the 15th and meeting on 22nd
21:33:14 <Zakim> +Tom_Rutt
21:33:34 <Ram> 	WS-Enumeration test coverage analysis to be completed by Microsoft.
21:33:40 <gpilz> q+\
21:33:45 <dug> q+ gil
21:33:55 <dug> q- \
21:34:42 <li> is Darth Vadar speaking as well?
21:34:49 <dug> zakim, who is making noise?
21:35:00 <Zakim> dug, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: Bob_Freund (25%), Gilbert_Pilz (41%)
21:35:32 <dug> q+
21:35:46 <Ram> Test coverage analysis actions:
21:35:48 <Ram> WS-Enumeration test coverage analysis to be completed by Microsoft.
21:35:56 <Ram> WS-Eventing test coverage analysis to be analysis by Avaya.
21:36:02 <Ram> WS-Transfer/WS-Fragment test coverage analysis to be analysis by IBM.
21:36:04 <BobF> ack du
21:36:08 <Ram> WS-MEX test coverage analysis to be analysis by Oracle.
21:36:13 <BobF> ack g
21:36:46 <Katy> Gil: Why aren't faults defined in the WSDL in the W3C specs?
21:39:05 <Katy> Tom: If SOAP faults they can happen anywhere so don't need to be defined in the WSDL
21:40:52 <dug> answer: we're lazy
21:40:59 <dug> answer: 'cause
21:41:11 <dug> answer: go away, use REST
21:41:30 <BobF> just log them
21:43:43 <dug> would we need a union to express multiple faults could be returned?
21:43:52 <Katy> Gil: will look into this and decide whether issue or not next meeting
21:43:53 <Zakim> -Tom_Rutt
21:43:55 <Zakim> -asoldano
21:43:55 <Katy> Katy has left #ws-ra
21:44:02 <Zakim> -Wu_Chou
21:44:04 <Zakim> -[Microsoft]
21:44:05 <Zakim> -Yves
21:44:06 <Zakim> - +44.196.281.aaaa
21:44:07 <Zakim> -Bob_Freund
21:44:12 <Zakim> -Gilbert_Pilz
21:44:13 <Zakim> WS_WSRA()3:30PM has ended
21:44:14 <Zakim> Attendees were Bob_Freund, Doug_Davis, Gilbert_Pilz, Wu_Chou, [Microsoft], +44.196.281.aaaa, asoldano, Yves, Tom_Rutt
21:44:16 <BobF> rrsagent, generate minutes
21:44:16 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/03/01-ws-ra-minutes.html BobF
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