20:00:36 RRSAgent has joined #svg 20:00:36 logging to http://www.w3.org/2011/02/28-svg-irc 20:00:38 RRSAgent, make logs public 20:00:40 Zakim, this will be GA_SVGWG 20:00:41 I do not see a conference matching that name scheduled within the next hour, trackbot 20:00:41 Meeting: SVG Working Group Teleconference 20:00:42 Date: 28 February 2011 20:00:43 RRSAgent, this meeting spans midnight 20:03:13 jwatt has joined #svg 20:03:36 jun has joined #svg 20:03:50 birtles has joined #svg 20:08:09 tbah has joined #svg 20:13:12 anthon_nz has joined #svg 20:19:20 Zakim, room for 3? 20:19:21 ok, ed; conference Team_(svg)20:19Z scheduled with code 26633 (CONF3) for 60 minutes until 2119Z 20:20:03 Team_(svg)20:19Z has now started 20:20:11 + +1.649.363.aaaa 20:20:35 tbah, you can call in now with code 26633 20:20:55 +tbah 20:20:56 +[Microsoft] 20:26:31 ChrisL has joined #svg 20:28:18 topic: CSS Animations 20:28:37 scribenick: ChrisL 20:29:12 roc has joined #svg 20:29:27 If you are asking about any other topics, my main topic today is animations/transitions on SVG 20:29:37 RRSAgent, this meeting spans midnight 20:29:54 Within this, Cameron and I have had a few threads on this that I used to update the working group yesterday 20:29:54 s/CSS Animations/CSS transforms 2d and 3d/ 20:29:55 rrsagent, here 20:29:55 See http://www.w3.org/2011/02/28-svg-irc#T20-29-55 20:30:02 Yes and no 20:31:27 CGI556 has joined #svg 20:32:07 shepazu has joined #svg 20:32:55 anthon_nz: at tpac the two groups agreed to use the same spec, and i saw simon frazer mad a commit, but i have not done much recently 20:33:11 ... this is in the fx repository 20:33:19 ... cam you wanted to add a property? 20:33:39 heycam: want the sytax to allow all the things that the svg syntax allows 20:33:50 ... rotate lacks cx and cy for example 20:34:39 ... they have a transform-origin instead, not clear how that works with multiple transforms 20:34:47 zakim, mute patrick 20:34:47 sorry, ChrisL, I do not know which phone connection belongs to patrick 20:34:56 s/patrick/Microsoft/ 20:34:56 zakim, who is here? 20:34:58 On the phone I see +1.649.363.aaaa, tbah, [Microsoft] 20:35:44 jwatt: thought it was for each individual rotate and scale 20:35:54 heycam: that makes more sense for me 20:36:28 ed: think these are stillprefixed 20:36:37 heycam: so there is room for changes 20:36:52 ed: did we not already agre to align syntax? 20:36:57 http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css3-2d-transforms/ 20:37:23 anthon_nz: simon and i both have actions for this spec. in particular the idl, using two different matrices 20:37:44 heycam: who has the action to propose that? 20:37:55 anthon_nz: need to look back in the tracker 20:38:22 jwatt: neither of those is very satisfactory 20:38:42 ... dont want the same origin for a setries of transforms 20:39:18 ... want a next-origin() command 20:39:50 heycam: whats wrong with having them in the transform itself? 20:40:03 jwatt: interferes with 2d to 3d expansion 20:40:32 anthon_nz: simon has an actionto investigate the issue with matrix definitins for the dom 20:40:49 heycam: are the property names different too 20:40:53 s/command/command e.g. transform="... next-origin(...) rotate(...) next-origin(...) scale(...) ..."/ 20:41:07 .... we have abcdef hope theirs are in the same order 20:41:11 RRSAgent: make minutes 20:41:11 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/02/28-svg-minutes.html jwatt 20:41:33 ChrisL: is this a row major vs column major issue? 20:41:37 heycam: hope not 20:41:44 http://www.w3.org/2010/03/11-fx-minutes.html#item02 (there are some resolutions there to align the syntax) 20:42:07 anthon_nz: another action on transitions, moved tocss transitions spec 20:42:15 s/tocss/to css/ 20:42:35 I can find out 20:42:49 pdengler has joined #svg 20:42:54 Let me check real quick 20:43:10 anthon_nz: has john jensen made teests for css transforms? 20:43:24 Can I ask the stupid question in the meantime? 20:43:38 yup 20:43:39 yes, you may 20:43:59 Is the biggest problem with 2d the center of origin? 20:44:04 Or only problem? 20:44:05 also, you can even unmute before asking it :) 20:44:33 shouldn’t CSS transform just be a property that override to SVG Transform and unless the origin is specified, the default is the default (i.e, 0,0 in SVG). 20:44:43 its one problem, given the anonymous list of parameters. 3d has one more param 20:44:54 So as soon as you throw in 3d yes? 20:45:04 heycam: first step is to get a list of the differences inthe syntax 20:45:19 Have we decided that 3D is interesting to SVG fragments? Seems like a big perf nightmare, I don't care who you are ;) 20:45:45 ed: already discussed in fx telcons, just need to look at minutes. sometimes minutes with no corresponding action, so need to review and assign them 20:46:02 action anthony to harvest fx minutes looking for missed actions 20:46:02 Created ACTION-2973 - Harvest fx minutes looking for missed actions [on Anthony Grasso - due 2011-03-07]. 20:46:47 ed: skew is one thing that was different and i posted a link to the resolution to align them 20:47:23 anthon_nz: css property overides the svg? 20:47:33 ed: yes we made it a presentastion attribute 20:48:01 anthon_nz: need to add that note to explain the override 20:48:32 If we keep the SVG OM different from the CSS OM, would we be OK? 20:48:41 ChrisL: becauser the style rule has higher specificity 20:49:10 heycam: would it break if we keep both object models 20:49:31 shepazu:dont want any differences. people trip over them and it puts them off svg 20:49:33 I agree with you, that is why if I always use CSS OM, it just works, right? 20:49:55 heycam: .transform on elements, maybe property would dissapear. have not discussed 20:50:04 ed: not the only place. getCTM etc 20:51:04 ChrisL: concerned to ensure the transforms from styling are reflected in the dom 20:51:18 heycam: get computed style 20:51:51 heycam: whenever we consider changing an animated attribute into a property, we'll need to consider what to do with the SVGAnimatedBlah property on the element 20:52:13 heycam: having the SVGAnimatedBlah still exist, and reflect the computed style, is kind of different from what they all do currently 20:54:01 karl has joined #svg 20:54:43 ChrisL (explains attributeType) 20:54:59 jwatt: (explains that everyone does something different) 20:55:30 shepazu: smil says that animation model is different to css obect model. but we can change that going forward 20:55:51 heycam: what is the different syntax in smil? 20:55:59 my animation proposal says that CSS animations always work on SVG as expected in CSS; that is that animVal is not affected. 20:56:24 shepazu: i believe we should fork from SMIL which is no longer being developed.more important to align with css and keep the element based approach 20:56:43 pdengler, (but that doesn't allow you to animate non-presentational attributes, like 'x' and 'width', right?) 20:57:20 pdengler, (not that that's necessarily an issue, just making sure I understand you) 20:57:26 heycam:.baseval and .animval was our addition, but reflecting into the overide stylesheet of elements is from smil 20:57:30 karlushi has joined #svg 20:58:07 shepazu: if we find stuff in smil that gives implementaion hassles or performance issues or is hard for authors we should simplify and clarify it 20:58:14 jwatt: on a case by case basis 20:58:18 shepazu: clearly 20:59:10 roc: we need to decide how we to animations before we can decide how todo transforms 20:59:27 ed: we split the topics this way to allow dino to join later 21:00:04 anthon_nz: we also decided to move the animation part out of transforms into the css animations spec 21:00:18 heycam: which explains how to interpolate animations 21:01:01 shepazu: comes down to priorities, which one of css and attribute takes priority 21:02:51 ChrisL: css already says how. presentation attributes have specificity zero 21:03:09 roc: need to discuss how different engines implement it. there are a lot of issues 21:04:13 shepazu: that attributeType has no value and is widely misunderstood so we should drop it 21:04:31 heycam: so anthony has the action to trawl minutes looking for missed actions 21:04:52 anthon_nz: have started do ing that. not had an fx tf discussion in a while 21:05:04 ed: spec has nothing oin transform origin 21:05:11 http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css3-2d-transforms/#transform-origin-property 21:05:33 -tbah 21:05:43 jwatt: (points to what heycam posted) 21:05:57 issue: consider dropping @attributeType, since it it is widely misunderstood and doesn't have a lot of value; perhaps add priority/specificity/importance property instead 21:05:57 Created ISSUE-2402 - Consider dropping @attributeType, since it it is widely misunderstood and doesn't have a lot of value; perhaps add priority/specificity/importance property instead ; please complete additional details at http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/track/issues/2402/edit . 21:06:15 +tbah 21:06:33 jwatt: why is there still a css spec? is it being updated as well as the fx one? 21:06:35 http://dev.w3.org/Graphics-FX/modules/2D-transforms/spec/2DTransforms.html 21:06:45 ed: this is the current spec 21:07:50 last mod date on the css one is May 2010, fx one is December 2010 21:08:26 heycam: fx one does have trotate with centrepoint 21:08:47 heycam:dont much like trandform origin 21:09:08 ... ac currently written its an overall wrap on the series 21:09:17 roc: we are kinda locjed into it 21:09:25 heycam: prefixed? 21:09:30 roc: yes, but 21:09:43 heycam:prefer having the origin right there in the rotate 21:10:56 roc: dont know wht it was not inthe rotate. it rotates about the centre 21:11:09 heycam: we discussed having a 3d excplicitly in the name 21:11:36 ChrisL: we need the distinct names to aboid clashes with anonymous property lists 21:11:59 anthon_nz: need to move to 3d. easier to do 2d first 21:12:20 jwatt: this stuff looks well aligned with the svg stuff 21:12:35 ed: need to publish it, needs agreement of bothgroups 21:12:49 heycam: all the values are plain numbers not lengths 21:12:58 roc: they are lengths in css 21:13:16 ChrisL: so you require units? 21:13:38 roc: yes. scale factors are noth lengths, but translates do 21:14:11 heycam: svg does not suppout units in translates 21:14:22 anthon_nz: allow percentages too? 21:14:36 heycam: in the dom they are floats 21:14:45 jwatt: they are svgnumbers 21:15:05 heycam: they are flaots in the css one to o so the units need to be factored out 21:15:09 issue: consider adding scale around specific point 21:15:09 Created ISSUE-2403 - Consider adding scale around specific point ; please complete additional details at http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/track/issues/2403/edit . 21:15:58 pdengler has joined #svg 21:16:02 anthon_nz: should discuss at fx telcon 21:16:23 ed: has not been brought up. need to collect these discussion topics 21:16:39 heycam: want to see a list of what is decided already and what is not discussed 21:16:48 karl has joined #svg 21:18:35 ed: anthon_nz please make a wiki page as part of your action-2973 21:18:42 dino has joined #svg 21:18:58 RRSAgent, pointer 21:18:58 See http://www.w3.org/2011/02/28-svg-irc#T21-18-58 21:19:04 dino, ^ 21:19:10 ed: interesting css matrixc interface both have floats so they already drop whatever units were originally specified 21:19:35 s/css matrixc interface/cssmatrix and svgmatrix interfaces/ 21:19:56 s/drop/loose info on/ 21:20:15 heycam: really need that before deciding 21:20:30 ed: we could do animval baseval here 21:21:19 heycam: had discussed with birtles the need to specify the centre 21:21:35 ... as long as svg can to rotate around a centre 21:21:55 anthon_nz: what happens if you define it both ways/ 21:22:19 heycam; sounds like transform origin is just an initial shift to move the origin and sa shift back afterwards 21:22:40 s/afterwards/after the entire list of transform items/ 21:22:59 anthon_nz: will overshoot the rotation. can say to ignore tranform origin if centre of rotation is siupplied 21:24:18 birtles: centrepoint on bbox is just 50% 50% 21:24:50 heycam: css can say things like right 5px 21:24:57 ... wonder about calc() 21:25:11 roc: yes you can put calc anywhere there is a length 21:25:23 s/right /right-/ 21:26:02 resolved: svg wants to allow rotation about centrepoint in svg, t align with css. sysntax not yet decided 21:26:36 RESOLUTION: svg wants to allow rotation about centrepoint in svg, t align with css. sysntax not yet decided 21:27:00 s/t align/to align/ 21:27:10 birtles: want to make sure that functionality is also available for animate Transform 21:27:37 heycam: peicewise interpolation of all the matrix components 21:27:48 ed: any more to say on this topic? 21:28:01 (break) 21:28:32 -tbah 21:41:59 http://dev.w3.org/SVG/profiles/1.1F2/publish/filters.html 21:47:01 http://people.mozilla.com/~roc/LitCircles.svg 21:49:44 ed: http://people.mozilla.com/~roc/LitCircles.xml 21:50:09 topic: svg2 dom 21:50:29 ed: lets fgo through the list 21:50:31 http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/wiki/SVG_2_DOM 21:50:59 tear off http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/wiki/SVG_2_DOM#.22tear_off.22_issues 21:52:12 ChrisL: so this is about live vs snapshot copy? 21:52:15 heycam: yes 21:52:30 ed: its not read-only. you can write to them 21:52:53 ... cant change the type of a path segment. can replace them though 21:53:39 ChrisL: seems cleaner to add and remove path segments 21:54:23 ed: not sure what the tearoff ise is in general 21:54:32 jwatt: who wrote this 21:55:11 (it was jwatt) 21:56:29 jwatt: so the idea is a lightweight internal structure created on demand can be thrown away when not referenced 21:56:37 -[Microsoft] 21:56:48 ... not clear of the impact of some of the spec on tearoffs 21:57:10 topic: performance issues 21:57:12 http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/wiki/SVG_2_DOM#Performance_issues 21:57:47 ed: so is thys a terse syntax issue? 21:58:53 ... number of proposalsaround this. setting multiple attrs at once. alias things to get float values directly 21:59:10 shepazu: microdom was one attempt to do that 21:59:26 heycam: was that a performance gain 22:00:20 ed: was more efficient and also the code size as a lot smaller compared to 1.1 dom. less objects than 1.1 dom 22:00:40 ... and they are live which adds complexity. udom is typed, one shot objects 22:01:23 heycam: is typed dom a premature optimisation, javascript is getting faster and better optimised 22:01:32 ed: simpler to maintain the udom 22:01:38 disconnecting the lone participant, +1.649.363.aaaa, in Team_(svg)20:19Z 22:01:42 Team_(svg)20:19Z has ended 22:01:44 Attendees were +1.649.363.aaaa, tbah, [Microsoft] 22:01:44 heycam: lve objects is part of the complexity 22:02:09 s/lve/live 22:03:31 (discussion on 'with' in ES5) 22:03:52 ed: aliases, c.cx for example 22:04:15 heycam: not a good way to go as other objects dont work like that 22:04:39 ... incosistent if its an object or a number depending on context 22:05:58 heycam: some generic dom core improvements could help here. like setting multiple atrs at once 22:06:12 shepazu: yes, but that is not what is being wored on in that effort 22:06:22 s/wored/worked 22:10:41 ed: we want to make the svg dom simplert and easier 22:10:49 shepazu; put together a proposal 22:11:06 ChrisL: fixing the code dom means other languages can benefit too 22:11:07 http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/wiki/Simple_SVG_API 22:13:07 shepazu: this is a json-like approach. name value pairs in attr avlues 22:13:30 ... can be done in script libraries, gets the readability improvement but no performance improvement 22:13:48 heycam: javascript engines are removing that multi call performance overhead 22:14:08 ... i always write functions to take lists of attr values 22:14:45 shepazu: also propose an insertAtIndex 22:14:58 http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/wiki/Simple_SVG_API#insertAtIndex 22:15:08 heycam: thats a really simple improvement 22:15:52 shepazu: also create with initialise 22:15:52 http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/wiki/Simple_SVG_API#createChild 22:16:04 ed: this belongs in dom core 22:16:27 shepazu: thatwas my intention 22:16:41 ... also some things specific tosvg, in addition 22:16:43 http://schepers.cc/w3c/svg/api/cog.svg 22:17:12 shepazu: view source. uses svg and canvas the same way 22:18:26 ... learning one api for svg and canvas helps 22:19:16 shepazu: so two things, once specific to graphics and one generic 22:19:27 ed: css om also has longwinded access 22:19:37 heycam: anne was supposed t be dealing with that 22:19:49 ed: still somehwat verbose, but acceptable 22:20:34 shepazu: we need editors that wil follow through and get this done 22:20:40 ... one, general dom stuff 22:20:49 ... two, things soecific tographics apis 22:20:56 ... three, styling and css apis 22:21:47 heycam:there could be improvements that are not graphics specific but that we want, like constructors 22:22:59 heycam: need a fully worked out proposal 22:23:33 shepazu: its not a complete list 22:23:56 jwatt: useful, but a wiki page does not get external review 22:24:53 action: shepazu to draw up a spec around simple dom core api 22:24:53 Created ACTION-2974 - Draw up a spec around simple dom core api [on Doug Schepers - due 2011-03-07]. 22:25:10 ed: makes sense to do in the webapps space rather thsan here 22:26:15 heycam: can be a set of improvements 22:26:22 jwatt: dom streamlining 22:27:12 (back to tearoffs) 22:27:23 (apparently blame due to anthony) 22:27:45 (dropped) 22:28:36 topic: array getters/setters 22:28:38 http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/wiki/SVG_2_DOM#Array_getters_and_setters 22:28:43 ed: array lengths 22:28:50 ... and indexing 22:29:07 jwatt: nice one 22:29:37 ed: shuld enure all our lists and arrays done like this. needs spec work 22:30:05 jwatt: so added length, array indexing ... splice? 22:30:06 ed no 22:30:10 jwatt: good 22:30:29 birtles can we deprecate number of items etc 22:30:41 jwatt: yes for new content but imps need to support 22:32:11 ... deprecate getItem 22:32:57 action erik to spec out lenght and array indexing for svg list types 22:32:57 Created ACTION-2975 - Spec out lenght and array indexing for svg list types [on Erik Dahlström - due 2011-03-07]. 22:33:27 topic: Global ECMAScript constructors 22:33:35 http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/wiki/SVG_2_DOM#Global_ECMAScript_constructors 22:33:39 ed: really handy 22:33:42 birtles: yes 22:33:54 http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/wiki/Global_ECMAScript_Constructors 22:34:06 ed: polluting globalnamespace? 22:34:17 jwatt: mozilla has them already 22:34:24 heycam: opera exposes them? 22:34:37 ed: not currently. not much work to expose constructors 22:34:46 jw: can override, not immutable 22:35:25 heycam: mostly straightforward. datatype ones are overloaded so no params does the current one , or list of params, or string 22:36:32 birtles any other types that need to be added, like for making a path? 22:37:05 heycam: cant create pathe data objects 22:37:21 jwatt: they are read-only. what would you do with it 22:37:33 heycam; expose path data as a string and have it writable 22:37:47 birtles: same as setAttr then 22:39:05 ed: do we use SVGAnimatedPathData / pathSegList as a separate object? or is it mainly for reading/writing for elements? 22:39:11 ... do we need a constructor for that? 22:39:17 heycam: we don't, so maybe we don't need it 22:39:27 ... or even an SVGPathData.asString property 22:39:45 ... unlike SVGPoint/SVGMatrix which are useful independently of an element 22:40:07 birtles: want more use cases. we made a function to make paths from an array of floats 22:40:24 .. and the segment type. make s asies all of the same type 22:40:43 heycam: join "C" with the list 22:41:20 heycam; have discussed before, geometry operations on path data, have not gone anywhere 22:41:38 ed: lets get dome resolutions 22:43:34 RESOLUTION: add array style indexing and .length and .item to svg list types 22:43:38 issue-2323? 22:43:38 ISSUE-2323 -- Consider aligning SVG*List interfaces with other arraylike types -- raised 22:43:38 http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/track/issues/2323 22:44:16 http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/wiki/Global_ECMAScript_Constructors 22:45:39 jwatt: concerned about relationof constructors to HTML 22:45:58 ... can we do better? 22:46:13 heycam: otoh this is a small and useful change 22:46:56 heycam: combination of array indexes and constructors works well 22:47:04 mySVGLengthList[2] = new SVGLength("2em") 22:47:17 s/dome resolutions/some resolutions/ 22:47:45 jwatt: why would i want to ? justassign a string 22:48:14 heycam; getter can only return one thing 22:48:32 while we could overload the setter to allow assigning a string or an SVGLength 22:48:42 s/? justassign a/do that, I'd rather just assign the/ 22:48:46 ed: can override getters and setters in ES5 22:49:36 jwatt: can i concatenate an object nd a string to get a string 22:50:12 s/ nd/ and 22:51:03 heycam: moved away from that idea because the conveson does not take place everywhere, specifically the not operator 22:51:45 jwatt: is not the main reason? 22:51:51 heycam: its one of them 22:52:07 s/not/the ! operator/ 22:52:57 heycam: == also, as I said to you in 2009 22:54:10 heycam: in html there are a couple of legacy constructors 22:54:20 newImage 22:55:39 heycam: new specs are taking advantage of constructors 22:55:56 ... no issue of scope collision 22:56:37 RESOLUTION: We will draft on global constructors for selected dom objects 22:56:50 ACTION heycam to draft on global constructors for selected dom objects 22:56:50 Created ACTION-2976 - Draft on global constructors for selected dom objects [on Cameron McCormack - due 2011-03-07]. 22:57:24 action-2976: http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/wiki/Global_ECMAScript_Constructors 22:57:24 ACTION-2976 Draft on global constructors for selected dom objects notes added 22:57:39 (lunch) 22:58:05 s/(lunch)/(hunger)/ 22:58:23 topic: svg 1.1 se testsuite status 22:58:56 jwatt: looked through our tests to look for interactivity 22:59:15 ... ton of pointer event usagesoe require kbd events 22:59:32 ... for accesskey 22:59:47 ed: some need focus too 22:59:56 jwatt: history back and forward 23:00:44 jwatt: history is from dom zero 23:00:51 roc: html5 also has it 23:01:18 jwatt: moving focus around, html has .focus so we need to add it 23:01:23 ed; tiny1.2 has that 23:01:43 http://svgwg.jwatt.org/tests/interactive/focus-using-element.focus.html 23:01:44 http://svgwg.jwatt.org/tests/interactive/focus-using-element.focus.svg 23:01:58 jwatt: .svg version doesn't work for anyone 23:02:44 shepazu: a11y folks have done some stuff there 23:03:19 s/tiny1.2 has that/tiny1.2 has methods for managing focus on the SVGSVGElement interface/ 23:03:37 shepazu: we should check back with the a11y folks and be sure we have met all their requirements for focus setting 23:03:50 jwatt: some tests check text is selectable 23:03:54 http://www.w3.org/TR/UAAG20/ 23:04:55 ChrisL: text selection tests on bidi would be ahred to instrument 23:05:12 jwatt: getSelection 23:05:20 http://svgwg.jwatt.org/tests/interactive/selection-using-getSelection.html 23:05:22 http://svgwg.jwatt.org/tests/interactive/selection-using-getSelection.svg 23:05:24 WAI focus definitions to consider http://www.w3.org/WAI/UA/2010/ED-UAAG20-20100823/#glossary 23:05:52 http://www.w3.org/WAI/UA/2010/ED-UAAG20-20100823/#def-focus 23:06:05 jwatt: there work in IE svg and in webkit. not in opera or mozilla 23:06:10 ... at least visually 23:07:45 http://www.w3.org/TR/SVG11/text.html#__svg__SVGTextContentElement__selectSubString 23:09:20 roc: that could be done with a reftest, 23:09:43 ChrisL: its not defined what the text selection looks like, so you cant do a reference image but you can do a reftest 23:10:00 ed: need to test copy paste as well 23:10:40 jwatt: so far all of this needs no special secirity priveledge 23:10:50 roc: copy paste would be an issue though 23:11:14 jwatt: using zoom and pan 23:11:35 ... can use svgsvgelement currentscale and currenttranslate except they are read only 23:11:40 ed;: no they are not 23:11:50 jwatt: ok the property is but the value is not 23:12:14 jwatt: last one is hover tests to check cursor 23:13:03 homata_ has joined #svg 23:13:10 roc: even platforms dont have apos to tel you that consistently 23:13:19 (that one would need to be manual) 23:13:31 roc: its not even in the framebuffer 23:13:44 http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/wiki/Proposals/Automated_testing_support_API 23:15:47 jw: this is used for when we crash, like garbage collect things we should not have 23:16:38 s/this is/garbageCollect is/ 23:17:05 jw: it could also be useful for object identity 23:17:12 heycam: safer to say this only works with command line option, not via an add-on for example 23:18:33 heycam: so these are sufficient, added some extra stuff that I anticipate we will eant later as we add more tests 23:18:38 pdengler2 has joined #svg 23:18:43 s/heycam/jwatt/ 23:20:08 zakim, room for 3? 23:20:09 ok, ChrisL; conference Team_(svg)23:20Z scheduled with code 26631 (CONF1) for 60 minutes until 0020Z 23:21:16 Team_(svg)23:20Z has now started 23:21:21 + +1.649.363.aaaa 23:21:23 + +1.425.868.aabb 23:22:01 roc: you would need a mode that allows css history sniffing 23:22:51 roc: we already have a testing mode 23:23:09 jwatt: erik can you do that as a mode? 23:23:31 ed: not sure if we have that at the moment, can find out 23:24:10 s/you would need a/we should have a/ 23:24:28 s/css history sniffing/css history sniffing instead of having this new API/ 23:24:28 pdengler: we have a lot of assets in this area, tracking down what we have 23:25:17 pdengler: totally get what we are after here, like it 23:26:13 roc: lots of browser bugs are a change of page state that does not propogate correctly 23:26:39 ... so we need to be able to test these invalidation bugs 23:27:00 ... we have reftests, page does dynamic stuff, compare to a final static page that is the sae 23:27:06 s/sae/same/ 23:27:30 roc: browsers tend tocache anf coalesce updates. so we miss some bugs 23:28:19 ... so we have a reftest which does not complete, when it loads we set an event listener for a moz-invalidate event. 23:28:34 ... browsers renders it and then fires the event once the buffer is complete 23:28:46 ... so the script waits for that to make its updates 23:29:17 ... similar to using a time, but this is much faster 23:30:06 ... lots of combinations to test. not sure if it makes sense to add thse to the svg test suite 23:30:33 zakim, list attendees 23:30:33 As of this point the attendees have been +1.649.363.aaaa, +1.425.868.aabb 23:30:52 zakim, who is here? 23:30:52 On the phone I see +1.425.868.aabb, +1.649.363.aaaa 23:31:32 roc: do you have mousover tests? 23:31:35 ChrisL: yes 23:32:06 jwatt: when is moz-invalidate fired? 23:32:09 mouseover tests where something changes appearance, where you want to synthesize the mouse events *after* the initial painting has happened 23:32:23 roc: after the first unsupressed paint of the window 23:33:36 roc: see definition of load event in HTML5 23:34:19 ... should be impleentable, dont fire if ther eare pending updates 23:35:05 (lunch) 23:35:20 - +1.425.868.aabb 23:35:22 Team_(svg)23:20Z has ended 23:35:24 Attendees were +1.649.363.aaaa, +1.425.868.aabb 23:36:06 karl has joined #svg 23:36:09 Present: Heycam, Shepazu, DHolbert, Birtles, Jun, Chris, Anthony, JWatt, Erik, Roc, Patrick, Tbah 23:36:16 rrsagent, make minutes 23:36:16 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/02/28-svg-minutes.html ChrisL 23:36:50 Chair: Erik, Heycam 23:36:59 rrsagent, make minutes 23:36:59 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/02/28-svg-minutes.html ChrisL 01:08:21 pdengler2 has joined #svg 01:14:10 birtles has joined #svg 01:33:58 jun has joined #svg 01:34:18 scribeNick: ed 01:34:32 Topic: DOMActivate deprecation and SVG 2.0 01:34:53 DS: deprecated bnecause it wasn't used and not implemented correctly 01:35:06 ... not very useful, leads to more complicated coding 01:35:21 ... when it was concieved click wasn't accessible at all 01:35:34 ... like for keyboard enter you didn't get a click 01:35:40 ... but browsers have since changed 01:36:07 ... there may be a new activate event coming out of the web events WG, as part of a higher level set of events 01:36:16 ... because of touch events and gestures 01:36:20 ... we'll have to see 01:36:39 CM: would this new activate mean the same as the old DOMActivate? 01:36:43 DS: not really 01:37:04 CL: order of events wasn't specified and so on 01:37:24 DS: people want things to work on mobiles and on other devices 01:37:40 ... svg uses DOMActivate now 01:37:51 ... talks about activation behavior 01:38:10 CM: is that distinct from the DOMActivate event? 01:38:17 DS: yes, links for example can be activated 01:38:28 ... it's sometimes specific to an element 01:38:47 ... so activation and DOMActivate are not the same 01:39:47 ... svg has an 'onactivate' attribute that registers a listener for the DOMActivate event 01:40:16 ... there would be a conflict if we defined it to listen for some activation behavior 01:40:22 ... doesn't impact svg very much 01:40:37 CM: you're not proposing to drop it from SVG 1.1? 01:40:40 DS: no 01:41:41 ED: so could we make SVG 2 'onactivate' listen for e.g click? 01:41:55 DS: sure, or whatever has the activation behavior 01:42:24 ... in svg we should talk about activation of links, and the different states of elements 01:42:35 ...svg doesn't have very many activatable elements 01:42:42 ... animations, links etc 01:43:01 CM: there are some tests in the testsuite DOMActivate activates a circle 01:43:32 ... did we decide to drop that test from the testsuite? 01:44:28 http://dev.w3.org/SVG/profiles/1.1F2/test/harness/htmlObjectMini/script-handle-02-b.html 01:46:59 ED: the test is in the approved category, ie9 and batik passes 01:47:50 DS: if something has an event handler, should it be activable? 01:48:54 ... if activate is equivalent to click, is the event handler in itself making it activatable? 01:49:12 ... so if you have a click handler is it activatable? 01:49:49 ED: yes, that's how tiny12 defines if an element is focusable (which is similar to activatable) 01:51:12 JW: so you've a conviniecne event? so if you had focus and pressed enter, you would get the activation behavior? 01:51:17 DS: yes 01:51:28 ... making something that looks like a button, in a webapp 01:51:37 ... in ARIA, role=button, that's a button 01:51:58 ... an a11y user agent would say that's a button 01:53:51 ISSUE: define state and activatability for elements in SVG 2 01:53:51 Created ISSUE-2404 - Define state and activatability for elements in SVG 2 ; please complete additional details at http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/track/issues/2404/edit . 01:55:51 JW: forget the word activate for a moment, call it "foo" event 01:56:35 ... people don't want to have to have separate listeners for keyboard events and click events like for a custom button 01:57:09 CM: the general idea is fine i think 01:57:43 DS: the old definition of DOMActivate was a bit handwavy 01:58:20 ... having a foo thing that handles tap, screentouch, and pen tablet event and a keyboard event, having a higher level abstraction makes sense (because the intent is to activate something) 01:58:53 CM: we shouldn't make everything activatable, but we should define when and how elements are activatable 01:59:08 ... like tiny12 has done 02:00:37 CM: for the script-handle test, i'd be happy to drop this from the testsuite 02:00:50 ED: yes, i agree 02:01:31 RESOLUTION: drop script-handle-02-t.svg from the testsuite 02:02:24 ACTION: heycam to drop script-handle-02-t from the SVG 1.1F2 testsuite 02:02:25 Created ACTION-2977 - Drop script-handle-02-t from the SVG 1.1F2 testsuite [on Cameron McCormack - due 2011-03-08]. 02:04:05 trackbot, close ACTION-2977 02:04:05 ACTION-2977 Drop script-handle-02-t from the SVG 1.1F2 testsuite closed 02:04:35 topic: SVG Parameters 02:05:07 DS: motivation is that we sometimes want to modify some aspect of an existing svg image 02:05:26 ... e.g chaning the color of something, for reuse, a button in three different colors for example 02:05:38 ... some things are possible to do in css, but not everything 02:05:53 ... having a way to do this would be useful 02:06:30 ... (presents the syntax from http://www.w3.org/TR/2009/WD-SVGParamPrimer-20090430/ ) 02:06:51 roc: the object syntax a bad example 02:06:54 ... don't follow that 02:07:02 ...it's bad because if you're doing incremental parsing 02:07:16 ... it can stall on loading the param elements 02:07:31 ... and we can't show the object before all the param elements are parsed 02:07:43 ... so we have to hack around this, slows things down 02:07:49 ... don't recommend doing that 02:08:10 ... the frameElement works only on same-origin content 02:08:30 ...the url parameters one, if you use the questionmark syntax, the hashtag could work though 02:09:13 ... in html if you have an iframe with a hashtag link then it will scroll to that element 02:10:07 ... in svg it's overloaded for some things like panning to an element 02:10:20 CM: and xpointer, and view syntax 02:10:39 DS: if we can find a way to pass them in like this that would be useful 02:10:55 that is hardly overloading. the use of bare fragments to mean "move the eleement with this id into view" is the same in html and svg 02:10:57 roc: for css you want the parameters to be first-class css 02:11:33 ... for transitions you might want params to be transitionable 02:12:17 DS: i did add a parameters object to give access to the parameters passed in 02:13:01 roc: you could have extra attributes in html to pass in attributes as the parameterlist 02:13:24 CM: we could have something on the object tag for simple access to those also 02:13:46 ... one thing which is good with the querystring syntax 02:13:56 ... is that it works in existing css 02:15:38 roc: can you talk about the syntax? 02:15:45 ... string substitution? 02:16:11 DS: if one of the things you're trying to parameterize is text... 02:17:02 roc: so the example is using is reaching into the parent document to read out the parameters 02:36:04 (short break) 02:37:30 roc: when you're animating you know the type and so on, with parameters you don't always know in advance 02:38:04 DS: if each param had like a shadowtree? 02:38:18 roc: xbl only allows shadownodes, not shadowattributes 02:38:42 ... you can inherit attributes 02:38:51 ... maybe this should be fixed in xbl2 02:39:12 DS: (continues showing the params primer examples) 02:39:51 roc: if you allow urls that has some security issues 02:39:58 ... suppose you hacve an image on good.com 02:40:22 ...and it takes a parameter that gets used as a url in that image, you can make it make a request to evil.com 02:40:38 ... and fooling the users of good.com 02:40:51 DS: isn't that a thing for CORS? 02:41:02 roc: no, not really relevant 02:41:49 ... it's a bit dangerous to be able to pass in urls 02:42:01 CM: so we need to be a bit more careful with those cases 02:42:38 roc: if we typed it then we could e.g restrict it (failing urls based on the type) 02:42:57 DS: it's going to be more work for users to specify the type of the params 02:43:47 roc: how does scoping work? 02:44:39 ... nevermind 02:48:47 http://www.w3.org/TR/2009/WD-SVGParam-20090430/#ref-element 02:48:50 DS: (describes the ref element) 02:49:40 roc: one idea is to avoid having to have mandatory type, default would be string 02:49:50 ... the strings could be reparsed as whatever you neeeded 02:50:19 ... if you wanted to you could add the type information, which could provide interpolation for example 02:51:18 ... if you wanted to use this from CSS you'd have to have value-pair syntax 02:51:48 ... name-value-pairs 02:52:13 JW: the type infromation should be provided by the resource 02:52:18 DS: could be both 02:52:25 roc: don't think you'd want to do that 02:52:43 http://dev.w3.org/SVG/modules/param/master/SVGParam.html 02:52:54 JW: roc, you wanted to run the transitions in the top document, affecting the resource document? 02:52:59 roc: yes 02:53:20 JW: didn't we talked about an api to access the parameters, right? 02:53:24 DS: yes 02:53:54 roc: can you have an api that can request arbitraty params, or just for the resource document? 02:53:59 ds: just what's passed in 02:54:03 roc has joined #svg 02:54:14 ... you still have access to params that aren't used 02:54:21 ... but it's not typed 02:54:32 ... by default 02:54:39 ... it might be useful to do that 02:55:04 JW: the resource generally knows what the params are for 02:55:27 ds: you could pass in and even animate something, that's when the type information is useful 02:55:40 ... animating it where it's used 02:56:03 JW: we need some markup to specify the type 02:56:17 CM: the types are going to be declared in the resource document 02:56:47 DS: having the ref thing is useful for this 02:57:30 DS: where do we want to go with this? 02:58:40 roc: we could have contextual parameterization, differnt for css and for html 02:59:24 ... parameter values change depending on the context, we need to define the syntax 02:59:35 ... agree that the funcationality is useful 02:59:46 JW: what about dtd entities? 02:59:55 CM: theyre' not animatable? 03:00:21 CM: true, people have been using entities for paramlike behavior 03:00:54 roc: it would be hairy, with entity expansion 03:01:06 DS: has to work at the DOM level, not at the parser level 03:01:29 ... what are the problems with entities? we'd need to solve the ever-expanding entity problem 03:01:49 CM: probably wouldn't work because html doesn't have internal dtd subset like xml does 03:02:18 jw: what happens with calc? 03:02:44 ... what happens on the dom side, getcomputedstyle? 03:02:52 BB: gives the computed value 03:03:02 JW: element.style.calc? 03:03:07 roc: gives you the string 03:03:26 DS: there should be a way to get the value before the computed ... 03:03:59 JW: there's no specila interface for calc, so you can't get a highlevel objkect representing the calc 03:05:07 CM: for widht and height, how do those get exposed? 03:05:27 DS: there should be away to get the epxression before the params expansion happened 03:07:43 ACTION: jwatt to follow up with roc and to provide feedback on the svg params spec 03:07:43 Created ACTION-2978 - Follow up with roc and to provide feedback on the svg params spec [on Jonathan Watt - due 2011-03-08]. 03:14:19 http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/wiki/Href 03:14:22 topic: Draft with the href resolutions 03:14:58 ED: what's the plan for this? 03:15:02 DS: svg2 03:15:11 AG: yes, svg2, not in svg integration 03:15:54 DS: this is one of the first things i would like to add to SVG2 03:28:20 RESOLUTION: in svg2 href will not be in xlink namespace 03:29:26 ... for the details see http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/wiki/Href 03:29:49 CM: the issues here are they adressed? 03:29:58 DS: yes, just leading up to the resolution 03:36:17 ... IE9 has this proposal implemented 03:41:54 CM: cool 03:42:36 topic: SVG integration 03:43:00 DS: originally started as a spec for different referencing modes for svg 03:43:12 ... for different environments, for use as an icon format etc 03:43:31 ... then took in a list of all attributes and elements in svg 03:43:46 ... some are things that the svg spec should talk about 03:44:06 ... on thursday i want to outline the set of issues for svg integration 03:44:46 http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/wiki/Features/SVG-as-image 03:45:14 JW: started this page with some thoughts on svg-in-img 03:45:28 ... relates to the svg integration spec 03:45:42 s/on svg-in-img/the specific case of svg-in-img/ 03:46:23 DS: svg integration doesn't make any requirements, like for what's allowed in svg for a specific scenario 03:46:39 ... that's up to the referencing spec, e.g CSS or for SVG2 03:46:40 http://dev.w3.org/SVG/modules/integration/SVGIntegration.html 03:47:44 JW: the svg integration doesn't list all things in http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/wiki/Features/SVG-as-image 03:49:09 CL: have you heard of from-origin? 03:49:53 ... got brought up in the context of fonts 03:50:07 DS: like a declarative variant of CORS 03:50:49 DH: for some scenarios, you want to enforce restrictions, like for allowing people to upload svg avatars to a server 03:51:24 ... we're interested in protecting those use-cases with the same-domain restriction 03:52:00 DS: scenario 1: A.com and B.com 03:52:13 ... can A.com pull in content from B.com? 03:52:42 ... are there scenarios where we don't want both parties to opt in? 03:53:06 ... i could have a whitelist for what domains can hotlink content 03:54:23 DH: tracking external resources, like you could track users using content from your site 03:54:27 ... like pingbacks 03:54:49 ... download of stylesheet or image 03:55:42 DH: plenty of sites allow usercontrolled images 03:56:08 from-origin http://annevankesteren.nl/2011/02/from-origin 03:57:02 CM: so in firefox all external resources are is restricted in the cases of svg-in-img and svg used from css 03:57:29 DS: issues: hotlinking, security, user tracking 03:59:03 ... what is the problem with fetching security files, whitelists? 03:59:12 ... why don't browsers do that? 03:59:26 JW: we have the headers that do that 03:59:34 DS: i'm talking about a file 04:01:49 DH: disabling external resources in svg-in-img would default to being secure 04:02:28 DS: so if the file for this file was found it could use it, otherwise could allow external references 04:02:41 CM: know that flash has this thing for crossdomain access 04:02:53 DS: it's only one side of this 04:03:21 CM: this seems to allow sharing content between sites, but not for arbitrary users 04:03:45 DS: you could have an "everyone can use this" 04:03:52 JW: i like blacklists 04:04:07 DS: you could have both whitelists and blacklists 04:05:04 DH: where would this all be defined? 04:05:36 DS: we could start with defining the security model of the use element 04:06:51 CM: so firefox supports use with external content, but with same-origin restrictions 04:08:45 ACTION: DS to write a proposal for external reference restrictions, with whitelists and blacklists 04:08:45 Created ACTION-2979 - Write a proposal for external reference restrictions, with whitelists and blacklists [on Doug Schepers - due 2011-03-08]. 04:09:28 roc has joined #svg 04:10:17 CM: it might be bad to require fetching of the well-known uri's 04:10:35 JW: could be done as part of fetching the svg perhaps 04:12:41 BB: event-based timing for svg-in-img 04:13:05 ... for using animations triggered by events, firefox doesn't allow that now for svg-in-img 04:14:20 JW: img tags are single units, events don't go into them, there're atomic, ui events don't go into them 04:14:33 ... so the svg-in-img never sees the ui events there 04:17:41 ED: so the only event that might be useful is repeatEvent, but it might also be a win for performance to just not handle eventbase in svg-in-img at all 04:18:13 BB: yes, it would be easier and probably better for performance 04:18:59 DS: so we have img, and iframe and object 04:19:18 ...which are the things that we might want to restrict for different scenarios 04:20:51 ... we need another mode that dont allow script but allows ui events 04:21:36 BB: are there examples, e.g what's expected for external banner ads 04:21:53 DS: would be good to explain what the modes are useful for 04:22:17 DH: so how do author for that? 04:22:53 CL: the spec that wants a particular mode needs to make those restrictions, svg integration doesn't require that 04:23:18 DS: i think for iframe a noscript attribute would be useful 04:24:02 CM: isn't there something like that in html5? 04:24:10 ED: the sandbox attribute maybe 04:24:38 DS: the referenceing mode for iframe with noscript would be this new refernceing mode 04:24:58 JW: probably just animated mode, with some restrictions 04:26:05 ... the mode to restrict "can-have-external-references" would be useful, to allow the avatar usecase 04:26:33 ... it's a handy thing, because it would make svg's similar to rasters that don't have external referecnes 04:26:51 DS: having referenceing modes for html would also be useful 04:27:12 ... want the textcontent and content of an iframe, but i don't want it to execute any scripts 04:27:24 http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/the-iframe-element.html#attr-iframe-sandbox -- the "sandbox" attribute 04:28:53 ACTION: DS to add examples to each referencing mode in svg integration 04:28:54 Created ACTION-2980 - Add examples to each referencing mode in svg integration [on Doug Schepers - due 2011-03-08]. 04:29:15 ACTION: DS to add another referencing mode for the banner ad use-case, noscript but with interactivity 04:29:15 Created ACTION-2981 - Add another referencing mode for the banner ad use-case, noscript but with interactivity [on Doug Schepers - due 2011-03-08]. 04:37:02 DS: would it be better to say "specifications" instead of "host languages"? 04:37:36 JW: doesn't need to be restricted to svg even, could be useful for other resources too 04:40:21 DS: what other things are missing from svg integration? 04:40:53 ... tav raised some points in his button examples 04:41:51 ... write something down about seamless murrmurrrumm? 04:42:49 CM: so the seamless attribute, the author is in control 04:42:58 ... can disallow scripts etc 04:44:32 ED: doesn't seamless introduce some security issues, with inheriting style into the referenced content, similar to what was raised as a concern for the svg parameters spec? 04:47:24 Zakim, end telcon 04:47:24 I don't understand 'end telcon', ed 04:47:51 trackbot, end telcon 04:47:51 Zakim, list attendees 04:47:51 sorry, trackbot, I don't know what conference this is 04:47:52 RRSAgent, please draft minutes 04:47:52 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/02/28-svg-minutes.html trackbot 04:47:53 RRSAgent, bye 04:47:53 I see 6 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2011/02/28-svg-actions.rdf : 04:47:53 ACTION: shepazu to draw up a spec around simple dom core api [1] 04:47:53 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2011/02/28-svg-irc#T22-24-53 04:47:53 ACTION: heycam to drop script-handle-02-t from the SVG 1.1F2 testsuite [2] 04:47:53 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2011/02/28-svg-irc#T02-02-24 04:47:53 ACTION: jwatt to follow up with roc and to provide feedback on the svg params spec [3] 04:47:53 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2011/02/28-svg-irc#T03-07-43 04:47:53 ACTION: DS to write a proposal for external reference restrictions, with whitelists and blacklists [4] 04:47:53 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2011/02/28-svg-irc#T04-08-45 04:47:53 ACTION: DS to add examples to each referencing mode in svg integration [5] 04:47:53 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2011/02/28-svg-irc#T04-28-53 04:47:53 ACTION: DS to add another referencing mode for the banner ad use-case, noscript but with interactivity [6] 04:47:53 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2011/02/28-svg-irc#T04-29-15