IRC log of svg on 2011-02-28

Timestamps are in UTC.

20:00:36 [RRSAgent]
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20:00:36 [RRSAgent]
logging to
20:00:38 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, make logs public
20:00:40 [trackbot]
Zakim, this will be GA_SVGWG
20:00:41 [Zakim]
I do not see a conference matching that name scheduled within the next hour, trackbot
20:00:41 [trackbot]
Meeting: SVG Working Group Teleconference
20:00:42 [trackbot]
Date: 28 February 2011
20:00:43 [heycam]
RRSAgent, this meeting spans midnight
20:03:13 [jwatt]
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20:03:36 [jun]
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20:03:50 [birtles]
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20:13:12 [anthon_nz]
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20:19:20 [ed]
Zakim, room for 3?
20:19:21 [Zakim]
ok, ed; conference Team_(svg)20:19Z scheduled with code 26633 (CONF3) for 60 minutes until 2119Z
20:20:03 [Zakim]
Team_(svg)20:19Z has now started
20:20:11 [Zakim]
+ +1.649.363.aaaa
20:20:35 [heycam]
tbah, you can call in now with code 26633
20:20:55 [Zakim]
20:20:56 [Zakim]
20:26:31 [ChrisL]
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20:28:18 [ChrisL]
topic: CSS Animations
20:28:37 [ChrisL]
scribenick: ChrisL
20:29:12 [roc]
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20:29:27 [pdengler]
If you are asking about any other topics, my main topic today is animations/transitions on SVG
20:29:37 [jwatt]
RRSAgent, this meeting spans midnight
20:29:54 [pdengler]
Within this, Cameron and I have had a few threads on this that I used to update the working group yesterday
20:29:54 [ed]
s/CSS Animations/CSS transforms 2d and 3d/
20:29:55 [ChrisL]
rrsagent, here
20:29:55 [RRSAgent]
20:30:02 [pdengler]
Yes and no
20:31:27 [CGI556]
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20:32:07 [shepazu]
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20:32:55 [ChrisL]
anthon_nz: at tpac the two groups agreed to use the same spec, and i saw simon frazer mad a commit, but i have not done much recently
20:33:11 [ChrisL]
... this is in the fx repository
20:33:19 [ChrisL]
... cam you wanted to add a property?
20:33:39 [ChrisL]
heycam: want the sytax to allow all the things that the svg syntax allows
20:33:50 [ChrisL]
... rotate lacks cx and cy for example
20:34:39 [ChrisL]
... they have a transform-origin instead, not clear how that works with multiple transforms
20:34:47 [ChrisL]
zakim, mute patrick
20:34:47 [Zakim]
sorry, ChrisL, I do not know which phone connection belongs to patrick
20:34:56 [dholbert]
20:34:56 [ChrisL]
zakim, who is here?
20:34:58 [Zakim]
On the phone I see +1.649.363.aaaa, tbah, [Microsoft]
20:35:44 [ChrisL]
jwatt: thought it was for each individual rotate and scale
20:35:54 [ChrisL]
heycam: that makes more sense for me
20:36:28 [ChrisL]
ed: think these are stillprefixed
20:36:37 [ChrisL]
heycam: so there is room for changes
20:36:52 [ChrisL]
ed: did we not already agre to align syntax?
20:36:57 [heycam]
20:37:23 [ChrisL]
anthon_nz: simon and i both have actions for this spec. in particular the idl, using two different matrices
20:37:44 [ChrisL]
heycam: who has the action to propose that?
20:37:55 [ChrisL]
anthon_nz: need to look back in the tracker
20:38:22 [ChrisL]
jwatt: neither of those is very satisfactory
20:38:42 [ChrisL]
... dont want the same origin for a setries of transforms
20:39:18 [ChrisL]
... want a next-origin() command
20:39:50 [ChrisL]
heycam: whats wrong with having them in the transform itself?
20:40:03 [ChrisL]
jwatt: interferes with 2d to 3d expansion
20:40:32 [ChrisL]
anthon_nz: simon has an actionto investigate the issue with matrix definitins for the dom
20:40:49 [ChrisL]
heycam: are the property names different too
20:40:53 [jwatt]
s/command/command e.g. transform="... next-origin(...) rotate(...) next-origin(...) scale(...) ..."/
20:41:07 [ChrisL]
.... we have abcdef hope theirs are in the same order
20:41:11 [jwatt]
RRSAgent: make minutes
20:41:11 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate jwatt
20:41:33 [ChrisL]
ChrisL: is this a row major vs column major issue?
20:41:37 [ChrisL]
heycam: hope not
20:41:44 [ed] (there are some resolutions there to align the syntax)
20:42:07 [ChrisL]
anthon_nz: another action on transitions, moved tocss transitions spec
20:42:15 [ChrisL]
s/tocss/to css/
20:42:35 [CGI556]
I can find out
20:42:49 [pdengler]
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20:42:54 [pdengler]
Let me check real quick
20:43:10 [ChrisL]
anthon_nz: has john jensen made teests for css transforms?
20:43:24 [pdengler]
Can I ask the stupid question in the meantime?
20:43:38 [jwatt]
20:43:39 [ChrisL]
yes, you may
20:43:59 [pdengler]
Is the biggest problem with 2d the center of origin?
20:44:04 [pdengler]
Or only problem?
20:44:05 [ChrisL]
also, you can even unmute before asking it :)
20:44:33 [pdengler]
shouldn’t CSS transform just be a property that override to SVG Transform and unless the origin is specified, the default is the default (i.e, 0,0 in SVG).
20:44:43 [ChrisL]
its one problem, given the anonymous list of parameters. 3d has one more param
20:44:54 [pdengler]
So as soon as you throw in 3d yes?
20:45:04 [ChrisL]
heycam: first step is to get a list of the differences inthe syntax
20:45:19 [pdengler]
Have we decided that 3D is interesting to SVG fragments? Seems like a big perf nightmare, I don't care who you are ;)
20:45:45 [ChrisL]
ed: already discussed in fx telcons, just need to look at minutes. sometimes minutes with no corresponding action, so need to review and assign them
20:46:02 [ChrisL]
action anthony to harvest fx minutes looking for missed actions
20:46:02 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-2973 - Harvest fx minutes looking for missed actions [on Anthony Grasso - due 2011-03-07].
20:46:47 [ChrisL]
ed: skew is one thing that was different and i posted a link to the resolution to align them
20:47:23 [ChrisL]
anthon_nz: css property overides the svg?
20:47:33 [ChrisL]
ed: yes we made it a presentastion attribute
20:48:01 [ChrisL]
anthon_nz: need to add that note to explain the override
20:48:32 [pdengler]
If we keep the SVG OM different from the CSS OM, would we be OK?
20:48:41 [ChrisL]
ChrisL: becauser the style rule has higher specificity
20:49:10 [ChrisL]
heycam: would it break if we keep both object models
20:49:31 [ChrisL]
shepazu:dont want any differences. people trip over them and it puts them off svg
20:49:33 [pdengler]
I agree with you, that is why if I always use CSS OM, it just works, right?
20:49:55 [ChrisL]
heycam: .transform on elements, maybe property would dissapear. have not discussed
20:50:04 [ChrisL]
ed: not the only place. getCTM etc
20:51:04 [ChrisL]
ChrisL: concerned to ensure the transforms from styling are reflected in the dom
20:51:18 [ChrisL]
heycam: get computed style
20:51:51 [heycam]
heycam: whenever we consider changing an animated attribute into a property, we'll need to consider what to do with the SVGAnimatedBlah property on the element
20:52:13 [heycam]
heycam: having the SVGAnimatedBlah still exist, and reflect the computed style, is kind of different from what they all do currently
20:54:01 [karl]
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20:54:43 [ChrisL]
ChrisL (explains attributeType)
20:54:59 [ChrisL]
jwatt: (explains that everyone does something different)
20:55:30 [ChrisL]
shepazu: smil says that animation model is different to css obect model. but we can change that going forward
20:55:51 [ChrisL]
heycam: what is the different syntax in smil?
20:55:59 [pdengler]
my animation proposal says that CSS animations always work on SVG as expected in CSS; that is that animVal is not affected.
20:56:24 [ChrisL]
shepazu: i believe we should fork from SMIL which is no longer being developed.more important to align with css and keep the element based approach
20:56:43 [dholbert]
pdengler, (but that doesn't allow you to animate non-presentational attributes, like 'x' and 'width', right?)
20:57:20 [dholbert]
pdengler, (not that that's necessarily an issue, just making sure I understand you)
20:57:26 [ChrisL]
heycam:.baseval and .animval was our addition, but reflecting into the overide stylesheet of elements is from smil
20:57:30 [karlushi]
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20:58:07 [ChrisL]
shepazu: if we find stuff in smil that gives implementaion hassles or performance issues or is hard for authors we should simplify and clarify it
20:58:14 [ChrisL]
jwatt: on a case by case basis
20:58:18 [ChrisL]
shepazu: clearly
20:59:10 [ChrisL]
roc: we need to decide how we to animations before we can decide how todo transforms
20:59:27 [ChrisL]
ed: we split the topics this way to allow dino to join later
21:00:04 [ChrisL]
anthon_nz: we also decided to move the animation part out of transforms into the css animations spec
21:00:18 [ChrisL]
heycam: which explains how to interpolate animations
21:01:01 [ChrisL]
shepazu: comes down to priorities, which one of css and attribute takes priority
21:02:51 [ChrisL]
ChrisL: css already says how. presentation attributes have specificity zero
21:03:09 [ChrisL]
roc: need to discuss how different engines implement it. there are a lot of issues
21:04:13 [ChrisL]
shepazu: that attributeType has no value and is widely misunderstood so we should drop it
21:04:31 [ChrisL]
heycam: so anthony has the action to trawl minutes looking for missed actions
21:04:52 [ChrisL]
anthon_nz: have started do ing that. not had an fx tf discussion in a while
21:05:04 [ChrisL]
ed: spec has nothing oin transform origin
21:05:11 [heycam]
21:05:33 [Zakim]
21:05:43 [ChrisL]
jwatt: (points to what heycam posted)
21:05:57 [shepazu]
issue: consider dropping @attributeType, since it it is widely misunderstood and doesn't have a lot of value; perhaps add priority/specificity/importance property instead
21:05:57 [trackbot]
Created ISSUE-2402 - Consider dropping @attributeType, since it it is widely misunderstood and doesn't have a lot of value; perhaps add priority/specificity/importance property instead ; please complete additional details at .
21:06:15 [Zakim]
21:06:33 [ChrisL]
jwatt: why is there still a css spec? is it being updated as well as the fx one?
21:06:35 [ed]
21:06:45 [ChrisL]
ed: this is the current spec
21:07:50 [ChrisL]
last mod date on the css one is May 2010, fx one is December 2010
21:08:26 [ChrisL]
heycam: fx one does have trotate with centrepoint
21:08:47 [ChrisL]
heycam:dont much like trandform origin
21:09:08 [ChrisL]
... ac currently written its an overall wrap on the series
21:09:17 [ChrisL]
roc: we are kinda locjed into it
21:09:25 [ChrisL]
heycam: prefixed?
21:09:30 [ChrisL]
roc: yes, but
21:09:43 [ChrisL]
heycam:prefer having the origin right there in the rotate
21:10:56 [ChrisL]
roc: dont know wht it was not inthe rotate. it rotates about the centre
21:11:09 [ChrisL]
heycam: we discussed having a 3d excplicitly in the name
21:11:36 [ChrisL]
ChrisL: we need the distinct names to aboid clashes with anonymous property lists
21:11:59 [ChrisL]
anthon_nz: need to move to 3d. easier to do 2d first
21:12:20 [ChrisL]
jwatt: this stuff looks well aligned with the svg stuff
21:12:35 [ChrisL]
ed: need to publish it, needs agreement of bothgroups
21:12:49 [ChrisL]
heycam: all the values are plain numbers not lengths
21:12:58 [ChrisL]
roc: they are lengths in css
21:13:16 [ChrisL]
ChrisL: so you require units?
21:13:38 [ChrisL]
roc: yes. scale factors are noth lengths, but translates do
21:14:11 [ChrisL]
heycam: svg does not suppout units in translates
21:14:22 [ChrisL]
anthon_nz: allow percentages too?
21:14:36 [ChrisL]
heycam: in the dom they are floats
21:14:45 [ChrisL]
jwatt: they are svgnumbers
21:15:05 [ChrisL]
heycam: they are flaots in the css one to o so the units need to be factored out
21:15:09 [shepazu]
issue: consider adding scale around specific point
21:15:09 [trackbot]
Created ISSUE-2403 - Consider adding scale around specific point ; please complete additional details at .
21:15:58 [pdengler]
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21:16:02 [ChrisL]
anthon_nz: should discuss at fx telcon
21:16:23 [ChrisL]
ed: has not been brought up. need to collect these discussion topics
21:16:39 [ChrisL]
heycam: want to see a list of what is decided already and what is not discussed
21:16:48 [karl]
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21:18:35 [ChrisL]
ed: anthon_nz please make a wiki page as part of your action-2973
21:18:42 [dino]
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21:18:58 [heycam]
RRSAgent, pointer
21:18:58 [RRSAgent]
21:19:04 [heycam]
dino, ^
21:19:10 [ChrisL]
ed: interesting css matrixc interface both have floats so they already drop whatever units were originally specified
21:19:35 [ed]
s/css matrixc interface/cssmatrix and svgmatrix interfaces/
21:19:56 [ChrisL]
s/drop/loose info on/
21:20:15 [ChrisL]
heycam: really need that before deciding
21:20:30 [ChrisL]
ed: we could do animval baseval here
21:21:19 [ChrisL]
heycam: had discussed with birtles the need to specify the centre
21:21:35 [ChrisL]
... as long as svg can to rotate around a centre
21:21:55 [ChrisL]
anthon_nz: what happens if you define it both ways/
21:22:19 [ChrisL]
heycam; sounds like transform origin is just an initial shift to move the origin and sa shift back afterwards
21:22:40 [jwatt]
s/afterwards/after the entire list of transform items/
21:22:59 [ChrisL]
anthon_nz: will overshoot the rotation. can say to ignore tranform origin if centre of rotation is siupplied
21:24:18 [ChrisL]
birtles: centrepoint on bbox is just 50% 50%
21:24:50 [ChrisL]
heycam: css can say things like right 5px
21:24:57 [ChrisL]
... wonder about calc()
21:25:11 [ChrisL]
roc: yes you can put calc anywhere there is a length
21:25:23 [ChrisL]
s/right /right-/
21:26:02 [ChrisL]
resolved: svg wants to allow rotation about centrepoint in svg, t align with css. sysntax not yet decided
21:26:36 [ChrisL]
RESOLUTION: svg wants to allow rotation about centrepoint in svg, t align with css. sysntax not yet decided
21:27:00 [jwatt]
s/t align/to align/
21:27:10 [ChrisL]
birtles: want to make sure that functionality is also available for animate Transform
21:27:37 [ChrisL]
heycam: peicewise interpolation of all the matrix components
21:27:48 [ChrisL]
ed: any more to say on this topic?
21:28:01 [ChrisL]
21:28:32 [Zakim]
21:41:59 [ed]
21:47:01 [roc]
21:49:44 [roc]
21:50:09 [ChrisL]
topic: svg2 dom
21:50:29 [ChrisL]
ed: lets fgo through the list
21:50:31 [heycam]
21:50:59 [ChrisL]
tear off
21:52:12 [ChrisL]
ChrisL: so this is about live vs snapshot copy?
21:52:15 [ChrisL]
heycam: yes
21:52:30 [ChrisL]
ed: its not read-only. you can write to them
21:52:53 [ChrisL]
... cant change the type of a path segment. can replace them though
21:53:39 [ChrisL]
ChrisL: seems cleaner to add and remove path segments
21:54:23 [ChrisL]
ed: not sure what the tearoff ise is in general
21:54:32 [ChrisL]
jwatt: who wrote this
21:55:11 [ChrisL]
(it was jwatt)
21:56:29 [ChrisL]
jwatt: so the idea is a lightweight internal structure created on demand can be thrown away when not referenced
21:56:37 [Zakim]
21:56:48 [ChrisL]
... not clear of the impact of some of the spec on tearoffs
21:57:10 [ChrisL]
topic: performance issues
21:57:12 [ChrisL]
21:57:47 [ChrisL]
ed: so is thys a terse syntax issue?
21:58:53 [ChrisL]
... number of proposalsaround this. setting multiple attrs at once. alias things to get float values directly
21:59:10 [ChrisL]
shepazu: microdom was one attempt to do that
21:59:26 [ChrisL]
heycam: was that a performance gain
22:00:20 [ChrisL]
ed: was more efficient and also the code size as a lot smaller compared to 1.1 dom. less objects than 1.1 dom
22:00:40 [ChrisL]
... and they are live which adds complexity. udom is typed, one shot objects
22:01:23 [ChrisL]
heycam: is typed dom a premature optimisation, javascript is getting faster and better optimised
22:01:32 [ChrisL]
ed: simpler to maintain the udom
22:01:38 [Zakim]
disconnecting the lone participant, +1.649.363.aaaa, in Team_(svg)20:19Z
22:01:42 [Zakim]
Team_(svg)20:19Z has ended
22:01:44 [Zakim]
Attendees were +1.649.363.aaaa, tbah, [Microsoft]
22:01:44 [ChrisL]
heycam: lve objects is part of the complexity
22:02:09 [ChrisL]
22:03:31 [ChrisL]
(discussion on 'with' in ES5)
22:03:52 [ChrisL]
ed: aliases, for example
22:04:15 [ChrisL]
heycam: not a good way to go as other objects dont work like that
22:04:39 [ChrisL]
... incosistent if its an object or a number depending on context
22:05:58 [ChrisL]
heycam: some generic dom core improvements could help here. like setting multiple atrs at once
22:06:12 [ChrisL]
shepazu: yes, but that is not what is being wored on in that effort
22:06:22 [ChrisL]
22:10:41 [ChrisL]
ed: we want to make the svg dom simplert and easier
22:10:49 [ChrisL]
shepazu; put together a proposal
22:11:06 [ChrisL]
ChrisL: fixing the code dom means other languages can benefit too
22:11:07 [shepazu]
22:13:07 [ChrisL]
shepazu: this is a json-like approach. name value pairs in attr avlues
22:13:30 [ChrisL]
... can be done in script libraries, gets the readability improvement but no performance improvement
22:13:48 [ChrisL]
heycam: javascript engines are removing that multi call performance overhead
22:14:08 [ChrisL]
... i always write functions to take lists of attr values
22:14:45 [ChrisL]
shepazu: also propose an insertAtIndex
22:14:58 [ChrisL]
22:15:08 [ChrisL]
heycam: thats a really simple improvement
22:15:52 [ChrisL]
shepazu: also create with initialise
22:15:52 [ChrisL]
22:16:04 [ChrisL]
ed: this belongs in dom core
22:16:27 [ChrisL]
shepazu: thatwas my intention
22:16:41 [ChrisL]
... also some things specific tosvg, in addition
22:16:43 [shepazu]
22:17:12 [ChrisL]
shepazu: view source. uses svg and canvas the same way
22:18:26 [ChrisL]
... learning one api for svg and canvas helps
22:19:16 [ChrisL]
shepazu: so two things, once specific to graphics and one generic
22:19:27 [ChrisL]
ed: css om also has longwinded access
22:19:37 [ChrisL]
heycam: anne was supposed t be dealing with that
22:19:49 [ChrisL]
ed: still somehwat verbose, but acceptable
22:20:34 [ChrisL]
shepazu: we need editors that wil follow through and get this done
22:20:40 [ChrisL]
... one, general dom stuff
22:20:49 [ChrisL]
... two, things soecific tographics apis
22:20:56 [ChrisL]
... three, styling and css apis
22:21:47 [ChrisL]
heycam:there could be improvements that are not graphics specific but that we want, like constructors
22:22:59 [ChrisL]
heycam: need a fully worked out proposal
22:23:33 [ChrisL]
shepazu: its not a complete list
22:23:56 [ChrisL]
jwatt: useful, but a wiki page does not get external review
22:24:53 [ChrisL]
action: shepazu to draw up a spec around simple dom core api
22:24:53 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-2974 - Draw up a spec around simple dom core api [on Doug Schepers - due 2011-03-07].
22:25:10 [ChrisL]
ed: makes sense to do in the webapps space rather thsan here
22:26:15 [ChrisL]
heycam: can be a set of improvements
22:26:22 [ChrisL]
jwatt: dom streamlining
22:27:12 [ChrisL]
(back to tearoffs)
22:27:23 [ChrisL]
(apparently blame due to anthony)
22:27:45 [ChrisL]
22:28:36 [ChrisL]
topic: array getters/setters
22:28:38 [ChrisL]
22:28:43 [ChrisL]
ed: array lengths
22:28:50 [ChrisL]
... and indexing
22:29:07 [ChrisL]
jwatt: nice one
22:29:37 [ChrisL]
ed: shuld enure all our lists and arrays done like this. needs spec work
22:30:05 [ChrisL]
jwatt: so added length, array indexing ... splice?
22:30:06 [ChrisL]
ed no
22:30:10 [ChrisL]
jwatt: good
22:30:29 [ChrisL]
birtles can we deprecate number of items etc
22:30:41 [ChrisL]
jwatt: yes for new content but imps need to support
22:32:11 [ChrisL]
... deprecate getItem
22:32:57 [ChrisL]
action erik to spec out lenght and array indexing for svg list types
22:32:57 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-2975 - Spec out lenght and array indexing for svg list types [on Erik Dahlström - due 2011-03-07].
22:33:27 [ChrisL]
topic: Global ECMAScript constructors
22:33:35 [ChrisL]
22:33:39 [ChrisL]
ed: really handy
22:33:42 [ChrisL]
birtles: yes
22:33:54 [ChrisL]
22:34:06 [ChrisL]
ed: polluting globalnamespace?
22:34:17 [ChrisL]
jwatt: mozilla has them already
22:34:24 [ChrisL]
heycam: opera exposes them?
22:34:37 [ChrisL]
ed: not currently. not much work to expose constructors
22:34:46 [ChrisL]
jw: can override, not immutable
22:35:25 [ChrisL]
heycam: mostly straightforward. datatype ones are overloaded so no params does the current one , or list of params, or string
22:36:32 [ChrisL]
birtles any other types that need to be added, like for making a path?
22:37:05 [ChrisL]
heycam: cant create pathe data objects
22:37:21 [ChrisL]
jwatt: they are read-only. what would you do with it
22:37:33 [ChrisL]
heycam; expose path data as a string and have it writable
22:37:47 [ChrisL]
birtles: same as setAttr then
22:39:05 [heycam]
ed: do we use SVGAnimatedPathData / pathSegList as a separate object? or is it mainly for reading/writing for <path> elements?
22:39:11 [heycam]
... do we need a constructor for that?
22:39:17 [heycam]
heycam: we don't, so maybe we don't need it
22:39:27 [heycam]
... or even an SVGPathData.asString property
22:39:45 [heycam]
... unlike SVGPoint/SVGMatrix which are useful independently of an element
22:40:07 [ChrisL]
birtles: want more use cases. we made a function to make paths from an array of floats
22:40:24 [ChrisL]
.. and the segment type. make s asies all of the same type
22:40:43 [ChrisL]
heycam: join "C" with the list
22:41:20 [ChrisL]
heycam; have discussed before, geometry operations on path data, have not gone anywhere
22:41:38 [ChrisL]
ed: lets get dome resolutions
22:43:34 [ChrisL]
RESOLUTION: add array style indexing and .length and .item to svg list types
22:43:38 [ChrisL]
22:43:38 [trackbot]
ISSUE-2323 -- Consider aligning SVG*List interfaces with other arraylike types -- raised
22:43:38 [trackbot]
22:44:16 [ed]
22:45:39 [ChrisL]
jwatt: concerned about relationof constructors to HTML
22:45:58 [ChrisL]
... can we do better?
22:46:13 [ChrisL]
heycam: otoh this is a small and useful change
22:46:56 [ChrisL]
heycam: combination of array indexes and constructors works well
22:47:04 [heycam]
mySVGLengthList[2] = new SVGLength("2em")
22:47:17 [ed]
s/dome resolutions/some resolutions/
22:47:45 [ChrisL]
jwatt: why would i want to ? justassign a string
22:48:14 [ChrisL]
heycam; getter can only return one thing
22:48:32 [heycam]
while we could overload the setter to allow assigning a string or an SVGLength
22:48:42 [jwatt]
s/? justassign a/do that, I'd rather just assign the/
22:48:46 [ChrisL]
ed: can override getters and setters in ES5
22:49:36 [ChrisL]
jwatt: can i concatenate an object nd a string to get a string
22:50:12 [ChrisL]
s/ nd/ and
22:51:03 [ChrisL]
heycam: moved away from that idea because the conveson does not take place everywhere, specifically the not operator
22:51:45 [ChrisL]
jwatt: is not the main reason?
22:51:51 [ChrisL]
heycam: its one of them
22:52:07 [jwatt]
s/not/the ! operator/
22:52:57 [ChrisL]
heycam: == also, as I said to you in 2009
22:54:10 [ChrisL]
heycam: in html there are a couple of legacy constructors
22:54:20 [ChrisL]
22:55:39 [ChrisL]
heycam: new specs are taking advantage of constructors
22:55:56 [ChrisL]
... no issue of scope collision
22:56:37 [ChrisL]
RESOLUTION: We will draft on global constructors for selected dom objects
22:56:50 [ChrisL]
ACTION heycam to draft on global constructors for selected dom objects
22:56:50 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-2976 - Draft on global constructors for selected dom objects [on Cameron McCormack - due 2011-03-07].
22:57:24 [ChrisL]
22:57:24 [trackbot]
ACTION-2976 Draft on global constructors for selected dom objects notes added
22:57:39 [ChrisL]
22:58:05 [ChrisL]
22:58:23 [ChrisL]
topic: svg 1.1 se testsuite status
22:58:56 [ChrisL]
jwatt: looked through our tests to look for interactivity
22:59:15 [ChrisL]
... ton of pointer event usagesoe require kbd events
22:59:32 [ChrisL]
... for accesskey
22:59:47 [ChrisL]
ed: some need focus too
22:59:56 [ChrisL]
jwatt: history back and forward
23:00:44 [ChrisL]
jwatt: history is from dom zero
23:00:51 [ChrisL]
roc: html5 also has it
23:01:18 [ChrisL]
jwatt: moving focus around, html has .focus so we need to add it
23:01:23 [ChrisL]
ed; tiny1.2 has that
23:01:43 [jwatt]
23:01:44 [jwatt]
23:01:58 [jwatt]
jwatt: .svg version doesn't work for anyone
23:02:44 [ChrisL]
shepazu: a11y folks have done some stuff there
23:03:19 [ed]
s/tiny1.2 has that/tiny1.2 has methods for managing focus on the SVGSVGElement interface/
23:03:37 [ChrisL]
shepazu: we should check back with the a11y folks and be sure we have met all their requirements for focus setting
23:03:50 [ChrisL]
jwatt: some tests check text is selectable
23:03:54 [shepazu]
23:04:55 [ChrisL]
ChrisL: text selection tests on bidi would be ahred to instrument
23:05:12 [ChrisL]
jwatt: getSelection
23:05:20 [jwatt]
23:05:22 [jwatt]
23:05:24 [shepazu]
WAI focus definitions to consider
23:05:52 [shepazu]
23:06:05 [ChrisL]
jwatt: there work in IE svg and in webkit. not in opera or mozilla
23:06:10 [ChrisL]
... at least visually
23:07:45 [ed]
23:09:20 [ChrisL]
roc: that could be done with a reftest,
23:09:43 [ChrisL]
ChrisL: its not defined what the text selection looks like, so you cant do a reference image but you can do a reftest
23:10:00 [ChrisL]
ed: need to test copy paste as well
23:10:40 [ChrisL]
jwatt: so far all of this needs no special secirity priveledge
23:10:50 [ChrisL]
roc: copy paste would be an issue though
23:11:14 [ChrisL]
jwatt: using zoom and pan
23:11:35 [ChrisL]
... can use svgsvgelement currentscale and currenttranslate except they are read only
23:11:40 [ChrisL]
ed;: no they are not
23:11:50 [ChrisL]
jwatt: ok the property is but the value is not
23:12:14 [ChrisL]
jwatt: last one is hover tests to check cursor
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23:13:10 [ChrisL]
roc: even platforms dont have apos to tel you that consistently
23:13:19 [ChrisL]
(that one would need to be manual)
23:13:31 [ChrisL]
roc: its not even in the framebuffer
23:13:44 [jwatt]
23:15:47 [ChrisL]
jw: this is used for when we crash, like garbage collect things we should not have
23:16:38 [jwatt]
s/this is/garbageCollect is/
23:17:05 [jwatt]
jw: it could also be useful for object identity
23:17:12 [ChrisL]
heycam: safer to say this only works with command line option, not via an add-on for example
23:18:33 [ChrisL]
heycam: so these are sufficient, added some extra stuff that I anticipate we will eant later as we add more tests
23:18:38 [pdengler2]
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23:18:43 [ChrisL]
23:20:08 [ChrisL]
zakim, room for 3?
23:20:09 [Zakim]
ok, ChrisL; conference Team_(svg)23:20Z scheduled with code 26631 (CONF1) for 60 minutes until 0020Z
23:21:16 [Zakim]
Team_(svg)23:20Z has now started
23:21:21 [Zakim]
+ +1.649.363.aaaa
23:21:23 [Zakim]
+ +1.425.868.aabb
23:22:01 [ChrisL]
roc: you would need a mode that allows css history sniffing
23:22:51 [ChrisL]
roc: we already have a testing mode
23:23:09 [ChrisL]
jwatt: erik can you do that as a mode?
23:23:31 [ChrisL]
ed: not sure if we have that at the moment, can find out
23:24:10 [jwatt]
s/you would need a/we should have a/
23:24:28 [jwatt]
s/css history sniffing/css history sniffing instead of having this new API/
23:24:28 [ChrisL]
pdengler: we have a lot of assets in this area, tracking down what we have
23:25:17 [ChrisL]
pdengler: totally get what we are after here, like it
23:26:13 [ChrisL]
roc: lots of browser bugs are a change of page state that does not propogate correctly
23:26:39 [ChrisL]
... so we need to be able to test these invalidation bugs
23:27:00 [ChrisL]
... we have reftests, page does dynamic stuff, compare to a final static page that is the sae
23:27:06 [ChrisL]
23:27:30 [ChrisL]
roc: browsers tend tocache anf coalesce updates. so we miss some bugs
23:28:19 [ChrisL]
... so we have a reftest which does not complete, when it loads we set an event listener for a moz-invalidate event.
23:28:34 [ChrisL]
... browsers renders it and then fires the event once the buffer is complete
23:28:46 [ChrisL]
... so the script waits for that to make its updates
23:29:17 [ChrisL]
... similar to using a time, but this is much faster
23:30:06 [ChrisL]
... lots of combinations to test. not sure if it makes sense to add thse to the svg test suite
23:30:33 [ChrisL]
zakim, list attendees
23:30:33 [Zakim]
As of this point the attendees have been +1.649.363.aaaa, +1.425.868.aabb
23:30:52 [ChrisL]
zakim, who is here?
23:30:52 [Zakim]
On the phone I see +1.425.868.aabb, +1.649.363.aaaa
23:31:32 [ChrisL]
roc: do you have mousover tests?
23:31:35 [ChrisL]
ChrisL: yes
23:32:06 [ChrisL]
jwatt: when is moz-invalidate fired?
23:32:09 [heycam]
mouseover tests where something changes appearance, where you want to synthesize the mouse events *after* the initial painting has happened
23:32:23 [ChrisL]
roc: after the first unsupressed paint of the window
23:33:36 [ChrisL]
roc: see definition of load event in HTML5
23:34:19 [ChrisL]
... should be impleentable, dont fire if ther eare pending updates
23:35:05 [ChrisL]
23:35:20 [Zakim]
- +1.425.868.aabb
23:35:22 [Zakim]
Team_(svg)23:20Z has ended
23:35:24 [Zakim]
Attendees were +1.649.363.aaaa, +1.425.868.aabb
23:36:06 [karl]
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23:36:09 [ChrisL]
Present: Heycam, Shepazu, DHolbert, Birtles, Jun, Chris, Anthony, JWatt, Erik, Roc, Patrick, Tbah
23:36:16 [ChrisL]
rrsagent, make minutes
23:36:16 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate ChrisL
23:36:50 [ChrisL]
Chair: Erik, Heycam
23:36:59 [ChrisL]
rrsagent, make minutes
23:36:59 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate ChrisL
01:08:21 [pdengler2]
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birtles has joined #svg
01:33:58 [jun]
jun has joined #svg
01:34:18 [ed]
scribeNick: ed
01:34:32 [ed]
Topic: DOMActivate deprecation and SVG 2.0
01:34:53 [ed]
DS: deprecated bnecause it wasn't used and not implemented correctly
01:35:06 [ed]
... not very useful, leads to more complicated coding
01:35:21 [ed]
... when it was concieved click wasn't accessible at all
01:35:34 [ed]
... like for keyboard enter you didn't get a click
01:35:40 [ed]
... but browsers have since changed
01:36:07 [ed]
... there may be a new activate event coming out of the web events WG, as part of a higher level set of events
01:36:16 [ed]
... because of touch events and gestures
01:36:20 [ed]
... we'll have to see
01:36:39 [ed]
CM: would this new activate mean the same as the old DOMActivate?
01:36:43 [ed]
DS: not really
01:37:04 [ed]
CL: order of events wasn't specified and so on
01:37:24 [ed]
DS: people want things to work on mobiles and on other devices
01:37:40 [ed]
... svg uses DOMActivate now
01:37:51 [ed]
... talks about activation behavior
01:38:10 [ed]
CM: is that distinct from the DOMActivate event?
01:38:17 [ed]
DS: yes, links for example can be activated
01:38:28 [ed]
... it's sometimes specific to an element
01:38:47 [ed]
... so activation and DOMActivate are not the same
01:39:47 [ed]
... svg has an 'onactivate' attribute that registers a listener for the DOMActivate event
01:40:16 [ed]
... there would be a conflict if we defined it to listen for some activation behavior
01:40:22 [ed]
... doesn't impact svg very much
01:40:37 [ed]
CM: you're not proposing to drop it from SVG 1.1?
01:40:40 [ed]
DS: no
01:41:41 [ed]
ED: so could we make SVG 2 'onactivate' listen for e.g click?
01:41:55 [ed]
DS: sure, or whatever has the activation behavior
01:42:24 [ed]
... in svg we should talk about activation of links, and the different states of elements
01:42:35 [ed]
...svg doesn't have very many activatable elements
01:42:42 [ed]
... animations, links etc
01:43:01 [ed]
CM: there are some tests in the testsuite DOMActivate activates a circle
01:43:32 [ed]
... did we decide to drop that test from the testsuite?
01:44:28 [heycam]
01:46:59 [ed]
ED: the test is in the approved category, ie9 and batik passes
01:47:50 [ed]
DS: if something has an event handler, should it be activable?
01:48:54 [ed]
... if activate is equivalent to click, is the event handler in itself making it activatable?
01:49:12 [ed]
... so if you have a click handler is it activatable?
01:49:49 [ed]
ED: yes, that's how tiny12 defines if an element is focusable (which is similar to activatable)
01:51:12 [ed]
JW: so you've a conviniecne event? so if you had focus and pressed enter, you would get the activation behavior?
01:51:17 [ed]
DS: yes
01:51:28 [ed]
... making something that looks like a button, in a webapp
01:51:37 [ed]
... in ARIA, role=button, that's a button
01:51:58 [ed]
... an a11y user agent would say that's a button
01:53:51 [ed]
ISSUE: define state and activatability for elements in SVG 2
01:53:51 [trackbot]
Created ISSUE-2404 - Define state and activatability for elements in SVG 2 ; please complete additional details at .
01:55:51 [ed]
JW: forget the word activate for a moment, call it "foo" event
01:56:35 [ed]
... people don't want to have to have separate listeners for keyboard events and click events like for a custom button
01:57:09 [ed]
CM: the general idea is fine i think
01:57:43 [ed]
DS: the old definition of DOMActivate was a bit handwavy
01:58:20 [ed]
... having a foo thing that handles tap, screentouch, and pen tablet event and a keyboard event, having a higher level abstraction makes sense (because the intent is to activate something)
01:58:53 [ed]
CM: we shouldn't make everything activatable, but we should define when and how elements are activatable
01:59:08 [ed]
... like tiny12 has done
02:00:37 [ed]
CM: for the script-handle test, i'd be happy to drop this from the testsuite
02:00:50 [ed]
ED: yes, i agree
02:01:31 [ed]
RESOLUTION: drop script-handle-02-t.svg from the testsuite
02:02:24 [ed]
ACTION: heycam to drop script-handle-02-t from the SVG 1.1F2 testsuite
02:02:25 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-2977 - Drop script-handle-02-t from the SVG 1.1F2 testsuite [on Cameron McCormack - due 2011-03-08].
02:04:05 [heycam]
trackbot, close ACTION-2977
02:04:05 [trackbot]
ACTION-2977 Drop script-handle-02-t from the SVG 1.1F2 testsuite closed
02:04:35 [ed]
topic: SVG Parameters
02:05:07 [ed]
DS: motivation is that we sometimes want to modify some aspect of an existing svg image
02:05:26 [ed]
... e.g chaning the color of something, for reuse, a button in three different colors for example
02:05:38 [ed]
... some things are possible to do in css, but not everything
02:05:53 [ed]
... having a way to do this would be useful
02:06:30 [ed]
... (presents the syntax from )
02:06:51 [ed]
roc: the object syntax a bad example
02:06:54 [ed]
... don't follow that
02:07:02 [ed]'s bad because if you're doing incremental parsing
02:07:16 [ed]
... it can stall on loading the param elements
02:07:31 [ed]
... and we can't show the object before all the param elements are parsed
02:07:43 [ed]
... so we have to hack around this, slows things down
02:07:49 [ed]
... don't recommend doing that
02:08:10 [ed]
... the frameElement works only on same-origin content
02:08:30 [ed]
...the url parameters one, if you use the questionmark syntax, the hashtag could work though
02:09:13 [ed]
... in html if you have an iframe with a hashtag link then it will scroll to that element
02:10:07 [ed]
... in svg it's overloaded for some things like panning to an element
02:10:20 [ed]
CM: and xpointer, and view syntax
02:10:39 [ed]
DS: if we can find a way to pass them in like this that would be useful
02:10:55 [ChrisL]
that is hardly overloading. the use of bare fragments to mean "move the eleement with this id into view" is the same in html and svg
02:10:57 [ed]
roc: for css you want the parameters to be first-class css
02:11:33 [ed]
... for transitions you might want params to be transitionable
02:12:17 [ed]
DS: i did add a parameters object to give access to the parameters passed in
02:13:01 [ed]
roc: you could have extra attributes in html to pass in attributes as the parameterlist
02:13:24 [ed]
CM: we could have something on the object tag for simple access to those also
02:13:46 [ed]
... one thing which is good with the querystring syntax
02:13:56 [ed]
... is that it works in existing css
02:15:38 [ed]
roc: can you talk about the syntax?
02:15:45 [ed]
... string substitution?
02:16:11 [ed]
DS: if one of the things you're trying to parameterize is text...
02:17:02 [ed]
roc: so the example is using is reaching into the parent document to read out the parameters
02:36:04 [ed]
(short break)
02:37:30 [ed]
roc: when you're animating you know the type and so on, with parameters you don't always know in advance
02:38:04 [ed]
DS: if each param had like a shadowtree?
02:38:18 [ed]
roc: xbl only allows shadownodes, not shadowattributes
02:38:42 [ed]
... you can inherit attributes
02:38:51 [ed]
... maybe this should be fixed in xbl2
02:39:12 [ed]
DS: (continues showing the params primer examples)
02:39:51 [ed]
roc: if you allow urls that has some security issues
02:39:58 [ed]
... suppose you hacve an image on
02:40:22 [ed]
...and it takes a parameter that gets used as a url in that image, you can make it make a request to
02:40:38 [ed]
... and fooling the users of
02:40:51 [ed]
DS: isn't that a thing for CORS?
02:41:02 [ed]
roc: no, not really relevant
02:41:49 [ed]
... it's a bit dangerous to be able to pass in urls
02:42:01 [ed]
CM: so we need to be a bit more careful with those cases
02:42:38 [ed]
roc: if we typed it then we could e.g restrict it (failing urls based on the type)
02:42:57 [ed]
DS: it's going to be more work for users to specify the type of the params
02:43:47 [ed]
roc: how does scoping work?
02:44:39 [ed]
... nevermind
02:48:47 [shepazu]
02:48:50 [ed]
DS: (describes the ref element)
02:49:40 [ed]
roc: one idea is to avoid having to have mandatory type, default would be string
02:49:50 [ed]
... the strings could be reparsed as whatever you neeeded
02:50:19 [ed]
... if you wanted to you could add the type information, which could provide interpolation for example
02:51:18 [ed]
... if you wanted to use this from CSS you'd have to have value-pair syntax
02:51:48 [ed]
... name-value-pairs
02:52:13 [ed]
JW: the type infromation should be provided by the resource
02:52:18 [ed]
DS: could be both
02:52:25 [ed]
roc: don't think you'd want to do that
02:52:43 [shepazu]
02:52:54 [ed]
JW: roc, you wanted to run the transitions in the top document, affecting the resource document?
02:52:59 [ed]
roc: yes
02:53:20 [ed]
JW: didn't we talked about an api to access the parameters, right?
02:53:24 [ed]
DS: yes
02:53:54 [ed]
roc: can you have an api that can request arbitraty params, or just for the resource document?
02:53:59 [ed]
ds: just what's passed in
02:54:03 [roc]
roc has joined #svg
02:54:14 [ed]
... you still have access to params that aren't used
02:54:21 [ed]
... but it's not typed
02:54:32 [ed]
... by default
02:54:39 [ed]
... it might be useful to do that
02:55:04 [ed]
JW: the resource generally knows what the params are for
02:55:27 [ed]
ds: you could pass in and even animate something, that's when the type information is useful
02:55:40 [ed]
... animating it where it's used
02:56:03 [ed]
JW: we need some markup to specify the type
02:56:17 [ed]
CM: the types are going to be declared in the resource document
02:56:47 [ed]
DS: having the ref thing is useful for this
02:57:30 [ed]
DS: where do we want to go with this?
02:58:40 [ed]
roc: we could have contextual parameterization, differnt for css and for html
02:59:24 [ed]
... parameter values change depending on the context, we need to define the syntax
02:59:35 [ed]
... agree that the funcationality is useful
02:59:46 [ed]
JW: what about dtd entities?
02:59:55 [ed]
CM: theyre' not animatable?
03:00:21 [ed]
CM: true, people have been using entities for paramlike behavior
03:00:54 [ed]
roc: it would be hairy, with entity expansion
03:01:06 [ed]
DS: has to work at the DOM level, not at the parser level
03:01:29 [ed]
... what are the problems with entities? we'd need to solve the ever-expanding entity problem
03:01:49 [ed]
CM: probably wouldn't work because html doesn't have internal dtd subset like xml does
03:02:18 [ed]
jw: what happens with calc?
03:02:44 [ed]
... what happens on the dom side, getcomputedstyle?
03:02:52 [ed]
BB: gives the computed value
03:03:02 [ed]
03:03:07 [ed]
roc: gives you the string
03:03:26 [ed]
DS: there should be a way to get the value before the computed ...
03:03:59 [ed]
JW: there's no specila interface for calc, so you can't get a highlevel objkect representing the calc
03:05:07 [ed]
CM: for widht and height, how do those get exposed?
03:05:27 [ed]
DS: there should be away to get the epxression before the params expansion happened
03:07:43 [ed]
ACTION: jwatt to follow up with roc and to provide feedback on the svg params spec
03:07:43 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-2978 - Follow up with roc and to provide feedback on the svg params spec [on Jonathan Watt - due 2011-03-08].
03:14:19 [shepazu]
03:14:22 [ed]
topic: Draft with the href resolutions
03:14:58 [ed]
ED: what's the plan for this?
03:15:02 [ed]
DS: svg2
03:15:11 [ed]
AG: yes, svg2, not in svg integration
03:15:54 [ed]
DS: this is one of the first things i would like to add to SVG2
03:28:20 [ed]
RESOLUTION: in svg2 href will not be in xlink namespace
03:29:26 [ed]
... for the details see
03:29:49 [ed]
CM: the issues here are they adressed?
03:29:58 [ed]
DS: yes, just leading up to the resolution
03:36:17 [ed]
... IE9 has this proposal implemented
03:41:54 [ed]
CM: cool
03:42:36 [ed]
topic: SVG integration
03:43:00 [ed]
DS: originally started as a spec for different referencing modes for svg
03:43:12 [ed]
... for different environments, for use as an icon format etc
03:43:31 [ed]
... then took in a list of all attributes and elements in svg
03:43:46 [ed]
... some are things that the svg spec should talk about
03:44:06 [ed]
... on thursday i want to outline the set of issues for svg integration
03:44:46 [jwatt]
03:45:14 [ed]
JW: started this page with some thoughts on svg-in-img
03:45:28 [ed]
... relates to the svg integration spec
03:45:42 [jwatt]
s/on svg-in-img/the specific case of svg-in-img/
03:46:23 [ed]
DS: svg integration doesn't make any requirements, like for what's allowed in svg for a specific scenario
03:46:39 [ed]
... that's up to the referencing spec, e.g CSS or for SVG2
03:46:40 [dholbert]
03:47:44 [ed]
JW: the svg integration doesn't list all things in
03:49:09 [ed]
CL: have you heard of from-origin?
03:49:53 [ed]
... got brought up in the context of fonts
03:50:07 [ed]
DS: like a declarative variant of CORS
03:50:49 [ed]
DH: for some scenarios, you want to enforce restrictions, like for allowing people to upload svg avatars to a server
03:51:24 [ed]
... we're interested in protecting those use-cases with the same-domain restriction
03:52:00 [ed]
DS: scenario 1: and
03:52:13 [ed]
... can pull in content from
03:52:42 [ed]
... are there scenarios where we don't want both parties to opt in?
03:53:06 [ed]
... i could have a whitelist for what domains can hotlink content
03:54:23 [ed]
DH: tracking external resources, like you could track users using content from your site
03:54:27 [ed]
... like pingbacks
03:54:49 [ed]
... download of stylesheet or image
03:55:42 [ed]
DH: plenty of sites allow usercontrolled images
03:56:08 [ChrisL]
03:57:02 [ed]
CM: so in firefox all external resources are is restricted in the cases of svg-in-img and svg used from css
03:57:29 [ed]
DS: issues: hotlinking, security, user tracking
03:59:03 [ed]
... what is the problem with fetching security files, whitelists?
03:59:12 [ed]
... why don't browsers do that?
03:59:26 [ed]
JW: we have the headers that do that
03:59:34 [ed]
DS: i'm talking about a file
04:01:49 [ed]
DH: disabling external resources in svg-in-img would default to being secure
04:02:28 [ed]
DS: so if the file for this file was found it could use it, otherwise could allow external references
04:02:41 [ed]
CM: know that flash has this thing for crossdomain access
04:02:53 [ed]
DS: it's only one side of this
04:03:21 [ed]
CM: this seems to allow sharing content between sites, but not for arbitrary users
04:03:45 [ed]
DS: you could have an "everyone can use this"
04:03:52 [ed]
JW: i like blacklists
04:04:07 [ed]
DS: you could have both whitelists and blacklists
04:05:04 [ed]
DH: where would this all be defined?
04:05:36 [ed]
DS: we could start with defining the security model of the use element
04:06:51 [ed]
CM: so firefox supports use with external content, but with same-origin restrictions
04:08:45 [ed]
ACTION: DS to write a proposal for external reference restrictions, with whitelists and blacklists
04:08:45 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-2979 - Write a proposal for external reference restrictions, with whitelists and blacklists [on Doug Schepers - due 2011-03-08].
04:09:28 [roc]
roc has joined #svg
04:10:17 [ed]
CM: it might be bad to require fetching of the well-known uri's
04:10:35 [ed]
JW: could be done as part of fetching the svg perhaps
04:12:41 [ed]
BB: event-based timing for svg-in-img
04:13:05 [ed]
... for using animations triggered by events, firefox doesn't allow that now for svg-in-img
04:14:20 [ed]
JW: img tags are single units, events don't go into them, there're atomic, ui events don't go into them
04:14:33 [ed]
... so the svg-in-img never sees the ui events there
04:17:41 [ed]
ED: so the only event that might be useful is repeatEvent, but it might also be a win for performance to just not handle eventbase in svg-in-img at all
04:18:13 [ed]
BB: yes, it would be easier and probably better for performance
04:18:59 [ed]
DS: so we have img, and iframe and object
04:19:18 [ed]
...which are the things that we might want to restrict for different scenarios
04:20:51 [ed]
... we need another mode that dont allow script but allows ui events
04:21:36 [ed]
BB: are there examples, e.g what's expected for external banner ads
04:21:53 [ed]
DS: would be good to explain what the modes are useful for
04:22:17 [ed]
DH: so how do author for that?
04:22:53 [ed]
CL: the spec that wants a particular mode needs to make those restrictions, svg integration doesn't require that
04:23:18 [ed]
DS: i think for iframe a noscript attribute would be useful
04:24:02 [ed]
CM: isn't there something like that in html5?
04:24:10 [ed]
ED: the sandbox attribute maybe
04:24:38 [ed]
DS: the referenceing mode for iframe with noscript would be this new refernceing mode
04:24:58 [ed]
JW: probably just animated mode, with some restrictions
04:26:05 [ed]
... the mode to restrict "can-have-external-references" would be useful, to allow the avatar usecase
04:26:33 [ed]
... it's a handy thing, because it would make svg's similar to rasters that don't have external referecnes
04:26:51 [ed]
DS: having referenceing modes for html would also be useful
04:27:12 [ed]
... want the textcontent and content of an iframe, but i don't want it to execute any scripts
04:27:24 [heycam] -- the "sandbox" attribute
04:28:53 [ed]
ACTION: DS to add examples to each referencing mode in svg integration
04:28:54 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-2980 - Add examples to each referencing mode in svg integration [on Doug Schepers - due 2011-03-08].
04:29:15 [ed]
ACTION: DS to add another referencing mode for the banner ad use-case, noscript but with interactivity
04:29:15 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-2981 - Add another referencing mode for the banner ad use-case, noscript but with interactivity [on Doug Schepers - due 2011-03-08].
04:37:02 [ed]
DS: would it be better to say "specifications" instead of "host languages"?
04:37:36 [ed]
JW: doesn't need to be restricted to svg even, could be useful for other resources too
04:40:21 [ed]
DS: what other things are missing from svg integration?
04:40:53 [ed]
... tav raised some points in his button examples
04:41:51 [ed]
... write something down about seamless murrmurrrumm?
04:42:49 [ed]
CM: so the seamless attribute, the author is in control
04:42:58 [ed]
... can disallow scripts etc
04:44:32 [ed]
ED: doesn't seamless introduce some security issues, with inheriting style into the referenced content, similar to what was raised as a concern for the svg parameters spec?
04:47:24 [ed]
Zakim, end telcon
04:47:24 [Zakim]
I don't understand 'end telcon', ed
04:47:51 [ed]
trackbot, end telcon
04:47:51 [trackbot]
Zakim, list attendees
04:47:51 [Zakim]
sorry, trackbot, I don't know what conference this is
04:47:52 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, please draft minutes
04:47:52 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate trackbot
04:47:53 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, bye
04:47:53 [RRSAgent]
I see 6 open action items saved in :
04:47:53 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: shepazu to draw up a spec around simple dom core api [1]
04:47:53 [RRSAgent]
recorded in
04:47:53 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: heycam to drop script-handle-02-t from the SVG 1.1F2 testsuite [2]
04:47:53 [RRSAgent]
recorded in
04:47:53 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: jwatt to follow up with roc and to provide feedback on the svg params spec [3]
04:47:53 [RRSAgent]
recorded in
04:47:53 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: DS to write a proposal for external reference restrictions, with whitelists and blacklists [4]
04:47:53 [RRSAgent]
recorded in
04:47:53 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: DS to add examples to each referencing mode in svg integration [5]
04:47:53 [RRSAgent]
recorded in
04:47:53 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: DS to add another referencing mode for the banner ad use-case, noscript but with interactivity [6]
04:47:53 [RRSAgent]
recorded in