14:52:01 RRSAgent has joined #lld 14:52:02 logging to http://www.w3.org/2011/02/24-lld-irc 14:52:10 rrsagent, bookmark 14:52:10 See http://www.w3.org/2011/02/24-lld-irc#T14-52-10 14:52:26 zakim, this will be lld 14:52:26 ok, antoine; I see INC_LLDXG()10:00AM scheduled to start in 8 minutes 14:52:35 Meeting: LLD XG 14:52:43 Chair: Antoine 14:53:18 Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xg-lld/2011Feb/0078.html 14:53:26 emma has joined #lld 14:53:52 Previous: 2011-02-14 http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/minutes/2011/02/17-lld-minutes.html 14:54:41 Regrets: Ray, Monica, Ross, Asaf, Kai, Uldis, Felix 14:55:11 rrsagent, please draft minutes 14:55:11 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/02/24-lld-minutes.html antoine 14:55:18 TomB has joined #lld 14:56:32 INC_LLDXG()10:00AM has now started 14:56:39 +michaelp 14:56:49 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/02/24-lld-minutes.html TomB 14:57:04 -michaelp 14:57:06 INC_LLDXG()10:00AM has ended 14:57:06 Attendees were michaelp 14:57:15 INC_LLDXG()10:00AM has now started 14:57:22 +??P5 14:57:35 zakim, ??P5 is me 14:57:35 +antoine; got it 14:57:41 +??P4 14:57:46 +michaelp 14:57:46 rrsagent, please draft minutes 14:57:46 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/02/24-lld-minutes.html antoine 14:57:52 LarsG has joined #lld 14:58:04 zakim, ??P4 is emma 14:58:04 +emma; got it 14:58:12 zakim, michaelp is emma 14:58:12 +emma; got it 14:58:14 +??P7 14:58:17 kcoyle has joined #lld 14:58:25 zakim, ??P7 is TomB 14:58:25 +TomB; got it 14:58:38 rrsagent, please make record public 14:58:52 kefo has joined #lld 14:58:56 +[LC] 14:58:58 zakim, LC is me 14:58:58 +kefo; got it 14:59:05 pmurray has joined #lld 14:59:12 rrsagent, bookmark 14:59:12 See http://www.w3.org/2011/02/24-lld-irc#T14-59-12 14:59:18 zakim, this will be lld 14:59:18 ok, TomB, I see INC_LLDXG()10:00AM already started 14:59:20 +??P11 14:59:22 marcia has joined #lld 14:59:24 Chair: Antoine 14:59:45 Scribe: Lars 14:59:51 ed has joined #lld 14:59:56 Regrets+ Ross, Asaf, Kai, Uldis, Felix, Jodi 14:59:57 zakim, mute me 14:59:57 kefo should now be muted 14:59:59 GordonD has joined #lld 15:00:10 test 15:00:12 rrsagent, please make record public 15:00:17 zakim, mute me 15:00:17 sorry, jeff_, I do not know which phone connection belongs to you 15:00:19 +??P14 15:00:21 rrsagent, please draft minutes 15:00:21 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/02/24-lld-minutes.html antoine 15:00:24 zakim, p14 is me 15:00:25 sorry, pmurray, I do not recognize a party named 'p14' 15:00:29 +marcia 15:00:29 zakim, michaelp is me 15:00:30 sorry, jeff_, I do not recognize a party named 'michaelp' 15:00:32 emma, yes, i think i'm p11 15:00:33 zakim, P14 is me 15:00:33 sorry, pmurray, I do not recognize a party named 'P14' 15:00:38 zakim, ??P14 is PMurray 15:00:38 +PMurray; got it 15:00:43 zaki, who is here? 15:00:49 zakim, who is here? 15:00:49 On the phone I see antoine, emma, emma.a, TomB, kefo (muted), kcoyle, PMurray, marcia 15:01:00 +??P16 15:01:32 zakim, ??P16 is GordonD 15:01:32 +GordonD; got it 15:01:45 rrsagent, please draft minutes 15:01:45 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/02/24-lld-minutes.html antoine 15:01:53 zakim, mute me 15:01:53 marcia should now be muted 15:02:00 zakim, mute me 15:02:00 sorry, jeff_, I do not know which phone connection belongs to you 15:02:11 Hi, I'm getting invalid passcode, I'll try another number 15:02:28 ok, lars! 15:02:51 jneubert has joined #lld 15:03:02 zakim, michaelp is jeff_ 15:03:02 sorry, emma, I do not recognize a party named 'michaelp' 15:03:18 zakim, emma.a is really jeff_ 15:03:18 +jeff_; got it 15:03:34 zakim, mute me 15:03:34 jeff_ should now be muted 15:03:49 +jneubert 15:04:05 +??P21 15:04:27 zakim, P21 is me 15:04:27 sorry, LarsG, I do not recognize a party named 'P21' 15:04:46 Scribenick: LarsG 15:05:07 +[LC] 15:05:15 zakim, LC is edsu 15:05:15 +edsu; got it 15:06:20 zakim, please mute me 15:06:20 LarsG should now be muted 15:06:55 topic: minutes 15:07:16 -antoine 15:07:22 ACTION: accept minutes 15:07:28 --resolved 15:07:57 sorry I'm out! 15:08:20 +??P29 15:08:32 zakim, ??P29 is me 15:08:32 +antoine; got it 15:08:41 tomB: Eight respondents for telco in Asia pacific 15:09:08 ... call next week 15:09:08 q+ about scribe duty 15:09:21 zakim, unmute me 15:09:21 kefo should no longer be muted 15:09:21 zakim, ack kefo 15:09:22 I see no one on the speaker queue 15:10:11 kefo: is signed up for scribe duty, but wants to change, if it's in the middle of the nicht. 15:10:16 we should take some minutes, though, for the others -- maybe not formal 15:10:18 zakim, mute me please 15:10:18 kefo should now be muted 15:10:26 tomB: explains it's not a replacement but another call 15:10:55 ACTION: everyone (on the call and off) to send email message in the next week re brainstorming on important issues 15:11:21 Antoine: action lead by Karen, created wiki-page 15:11:25 --CONTINUES 15:11:26 http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/wiki/Draft_issues_page 15:11:37 Karen: collected all emails into the wiki page 15:11:49 TOPIC: Problems & limitations 15:11:50 ... took care of all issues and limitations from the use cases 15:12:13 .. and reorganised them as bullet points which we need to turn into something better 15:12:23 ... tried to pull out sensible issues from them 15:12:43 ... we need this group or a subgroup to pull out the key issues 15:12:55 ... so that the group can discuss 15:13:14 antoine: are you optimistic? Karen has done great work 15:13:52 kc: pulls out many issues, what is the case for LLD? 15:13:57 Clarify that these are issues which are problematic and limiting ... 15:14:00 http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/wiki/Draft_issues_page#From_the_Use_Cases_.28RAW.29 15:14:16 ... this is where case studies come in and need to be covered by the report 15:14:32 .. we can do some calls and talk about it 15:14:45 antoine: who volunteers to help Karen? 15:14:48 TomB volunteers to help 15:14:57 We also need to incorporate stuff from other components of the Problems and limitations section ... 15:14:57 PMurray volunteers to help 15:15:08 kc: will put a call out on the list 15:15:23 kc: what do you mean by other stuff? 15:15:24 There's the next item on this week's agenda ... 15:15:46 e.g. the generic issues raised in the Library standards and linked data section 15:16:03 kc: topics and limitations are included 15:16:19 I think GordonD thinks about his Library standards issues page 15:16:21 ... if you're aware of the issues, the group should add those in. 15:16:36 http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/wiki/Library_standards_and_linked_data 15:16:37 http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/wiki/Library_standards_and_linked_data 15:16:39 antoine: Gordon probably refers to wiki pages 15:16:39 I will volunteer to help 15:16:46 kc: will pull those in 15:16:55 antoine: could be interesting 15:17:40 But - I am out of action for all of next week ... 15:17:40 +1 to call before next meeting 15:17:44 kc: the group seems big enogh, let's do a call between now and next meeting 15:17:55 So i'll contribute via email ... 15:18:19 -antoine 15:18:39 +[IPcaller] 15:19:31 antoine: we have the pages created by GordonD on library standards and lnked data 15:19:36 zakim, unmute me 15:19:36 GordonD should no longer be muted 15:19:49 ... now might be the right time to discuss 15:20:18 GordonD: it's probably better to have the small group pull it into Karen's page 15:20:40 I propose March 10 15:20:43 ... we should schedule on which telecon we do it 15:21:08 +1 March 10 15:21:10 antoine: in two weeks time is good, the we can get a clearer picture 15:21:13 Jodi sent an email today: "most of the issues we have are not specific to Library Linked Data, but rather are important for Linked Data in general." 15:21:18 kc: sounds good 15:21:23 It's a good deadline! 15:21:41 ACTION: http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/wiki/Library_standards_and_linked_data 15:21:48 -- CONTINUES 15:22:07 zakim, please unmute me 15:22:07 LarsG should no longer be muted 15:22:16 marcia, there is a section for SW issues -- 1.1.1.8 -- may need to be renamed/changed, but that is its purpose 15:22:33 no noise, it's fine 15:22:48 oops, some noise 15:22:56 ACTION: As a future topic for a conference call, discuss the open questions in the second half of http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/wiki/Library_standards_and_linked_data [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/minutes/2011/01/27-lld-minutes.html#action03] 15:23:00 --DROPPED 15:23:18 ACTION: As a future topic for March 10, discuss the open questions in the second half of http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/wiki/Library_standards_and_linked_data [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/minutes/2011/01/27-lld-minutes.html#action03] 15:23:44 Antoine: Problem of topic page 15:24:15 ... has been main focus point so far, Karen's page can replace that 15:24:29 kcoyle: not a replacement, but a kind of working area 15:24:44 ... a place to clarify our thoughts 15:24:57 http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/wiki/TopicsDiscussed 15:25:10 +1 working area - we will feel freer if we don't worry too much about how it fits in 15:25:14 Topics are also referenced by use cases and clusters ... 15:25:26 ... this page is a kind of scribble page, won't replace the report 15:25:29 q+ to suggest using TopicsDiscussed as a checklist 15:25:49 ... it's too messy to be inside the report 15:26:09 antoine: kind of sandbox to be replaced 15:26:20 kcoyle: content to be extracted into report 15:26:53 q? 15:27:10 ack emma 15:27:10 emma, you wanted to suggest using TopicsDiscussed as a checklist 15:27:12 antoine: media wiki categories, idea was to have each issue represented as its own category. Has anyoune used that? 15:27:46 emma: we should use topics discussed as a checklist, to make sure we haven't forgotten anything 15:27:59 +1 15:28:11 ... it was useful to discuss them at F2F but not for the report. Karen's work is better 15:28:29 antoine: each topic has its own page 15:28:58 emma: idea was to write a short paragraph on each topic and that could be transcluded into the other page 15:29:12 -kefo 15:29:17 ... we could make links between topics and use cases 15:29:40 ... if we still want to write about each topic, the issues pages is more organized 15:29:52 +[LC] 15:29:52 zakim, LC is me 15:29:53 +kefo; got it 15:29:58 antoine: the agenda will keep the topics discussed page 15:30:39 emma: all topics don't have categories, so that won't be complete 15:31:23 antoine: has anyone comments on topics and limitations? 15:31:28 or send in email 15:31:32 ... move on 15:31:40 TOPIC: Final report draft 15:31:58 http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/wiki/Library_standards_and_linked_data 15:32:34 http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/wiki/DraftReport 15:32:42 antoine: six items 15:32:45 exec summary 15:33:08 problems limitations 15:33:13 recommendations 15:33:19 etc. 15:33:32 # Executive Summary # Benefits of LD for libraries # Use cases and requirements (represented via clusters, plus an annotated list of use cases, plus requirement list?) # Available data (vocabularies, datasets) # Problems and limitations # Recommendations (Vocabularies, Identifiers, Data modeling, Architecture, Links, General education and outreach, Curricula) 15:33:33 ... for each item there are several choices: 15:33:52 ... only summary of the topic 15:34:12 ... or keep things at the Wiki 15:34:19 ... or make an appendix 15:34:37 ... we must agree on how to proceed 15:34:53 ... first item: Exec summary 15:34:57 +1 15:34:59 +1 15:35:02 ... fully fledged section 15:35:03 +1 15:35:04 q+ 15:35:14 zakim, ack TomB 15:35:14 I see no one on the speaker queue 15:35:52 and conclusions 15:36:07 TomB: write exec summary as a guide on how to read the document, high level view of issues 15:36:20 ... if we write it now we'll have to rewrite it later 15:36:23 Exec summary shouldn't be only about issues 15:36:38 +1 15:36:39 Executive Summary should also be made available as separate unit for print and distribute. 15:36:43 q+ 15:37:03 zakim, ack emma 15:37:03 I see no one on the speaker queue 15:37:10 emma: suggest we merge this section with use cases 15:37:16 ++1 15:37:25 ... to show benefit of LLD 15:37:27 Emma+ 15:37:33 +1 to use use cases as illustrations of the benefits 15:37:57 antoine: the benefits of LLD should be the place where UCs are introduced to the report and perhaps the only place where they're mentioned 15:38:36 emma++ 15:38:41 emma: 50 UCs in the report are too many, we should focus more on benefits, less on limitations, this comes from the clusters 15:39:05 use cases are proof that there are hoped-for benefits 15:39:07 emma: methodology, how to extract benefits from the UCs 15:39:32 Use cases are a hostage to fortune - first thing a reader will do is see if there is a familiar use case, and if there isn't ... 15:39:37 antoine: many of the UCs show problems at hand in the scenarios 15:40:02 emma: should we review clusters to get benefits from there 15:40:05 yes, extract benefits -- see what we get -- add in others if needed 15:40:17 ... maybe we should create a subgroup to extract benefits 15:40:32 antoine: agrees. Volunteers? 15:40:44 +1 use cases digested into clusters, clusters digested into final report 15:41:10 antoine: can emma set up a WG for all volunteers 15:41:43 +1 15:42:24 +1 15:42:25 ACTION: emma to start curating a section on benefits of LLD for libraries 15:42:41 s/emma/emma and ed 15:42:42 s/emma to/emma and ed/ 15:43:04 rrsagent, please draft minutes 15:43:04 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/02/24-lld-minutes.html emma 15:43:52 antoine: we still have possibility to make UCs a full part of the report 15:44:08 q+ 15:44:09 as an appendix? 15:44:10 ... as a side deliverable 15:44:15 zakim, ack edsu 15:44:15 I see no one on the speaker queue 15:44:23 +1 for a separate deliverable 15:44:28 edsu: support that idea, much work has been put into the UCs 15:44:50 q+ 15:44:53 ... we can extract for the final report, but should present the UCs as a separate deliverable 15:44:55 +1 for Use Case deliverable 15:45:02 zakim, ack kcoyle 15:45:02 I see no one on the speaker queue 15:45:40 kcoyle: agree, it gives credit and makes visible that people work in this area, that there are real project and gives credit to those people 15:45:44 +1 15:45:44 antoine: ack 15:46:26 q+ 15:46:37 antoine: we need volunteers to take care of that deliverable 15:46:43 zaki, ack emma 15:46:48 zakim, ack emma 15:46:48 I see no one on the speaker queue 15:47:14 q+ to suggest we identify editors for the use case document deliverable, rather than lots of reviewers 15:47:18 emma: go back to initial proposal for clusters: read carefully what others have written and put it into a report 15:47:19 +1 15:47:25 zakim, ack edsu 15:47:25 edsu, you wanted to suggest we identify editors for the use case document deliverable, rather than lots of reviewers 15:47:28 I see no one on the speaker queue 15:48:09 +1 Emma and Ed 15:48:20 so we need a use case committee/editors 15:48:21 edsu: still has trouble with too many people edit UCs and deliverables. better to have just few editors, instead of doing too much reviewing now 15:48:32 It's the clusters that need reviewed by neutral editors 15:48:33 @ed +1, just wanted to emphasize that editors of this deliverable souldn't be the authors of the clusters but other people 15:48:33 q+ to point out that what Ed is proposing is what I proposed in point 1 of http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xg-lld/2011Feb/0034.html 15:48:53 antoine: to have a limited number of editors might be an option 15:49:15 zakim, ack TomB 15:49:15 TomB, you wanted to point out that what Ed is proposing is what I proposed in point 1 of http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xg-lld/2011Feb/0034.html 15:49:18 I see no one on the speaker queue 15:49:20 edsu: someone should have it as an action 15:50:25 TomB: proposes that we have someone to take ownership of UC document, look at case studies and UCs and make a proposal what the section should look like 15:50:42 noting that jodi is not on this call (right?) and she did much of the use case work 15:50:52 jodi is not on the call 15:50:58 +1 and also on the list 15:51:01 antoine: volunteers now or on the list or both? 15:51:07 But owner of uc document should NOT be someone who has contributed to use cases, clusters ... 15:51:28 +1 Gordon, we need new perspectives 15:51:51 We need to show objectivity, and a check/balance review is a good method 15:51:52 antoine: this is what TomB and edsu suggest 15:51:59 did anyone not contribute or review? 15:52:35 zakim, who's on the call ? 15:52:35 On the phone I see emma, jeff_ (muted), TomB, kcoyle, PMurray (muted), marcia (muted), GordonD (muted), jneubert (muted), LarsG, edsu, Antoine, kefo 15:52:38 :-) 15:52:58 hehehe 15:53:14 +1 for chairs to figure it out :-) 15:53:19 ed, i already have tomB on my committee -- no one else can have him! 15:53:19 +1 15:53:35 +1 for chairs to pick victims :-) 15:53:42 kcoyle: wait, what committee is that again? 15:53:59 ACTION: emma, TomB, and antoine to send a call for finding an owner of the UC deliverable 15:54:16 ed, the issues group 15:54:29 kcoyle: oh yeah :-D 15:54:35 Available data is too volatile - there's a new announcement every week 15:54:41 So suggest a summary# 15:54:52 antoine: available data, is this a separate section in the report, or should we just have summary? 15:55:39 q+ 15:55:44 GordonD: we hear news about new library data every week, so it's better to summarize. We should concentrate on identifying gaps 15:55:46 zakim, ack edsu 15:55:46 I see no one on the speaker queue 15:56:26 q+ 15:56:39 edsu: disagrees. +1 to identify gaps, and there is an oppurtunity for people interested to become pointers to work done already 15:57:01 zakim, ack kcoyle 15:57:01 I see no one on the speaker queue 15:57:05 ... it might be hard, but we need to talk about what there is now 15:57:15 Agree with Ed. List vocabularies and related use cases, not to give opinions. 15:57:23 q+ to point out that what Ed is proposing is what I proposed in point 3 of http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xg-lld/2011Feb/0034.html 15:57:47 zakim, ack TomB 15:57:47 TomB, you wanted to point out that what Ed is proposing is what I proposed in point 3 of http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xg-lld/2011Feb/0034.html 15:57:51 I see no one on the speaker queue 15:57:53 kcoyle: agrees with edsu, perhaps we should pick representative samples (national libraries, individual contributions) but not as a definiive list 15:58:30 +1 to start from use cases 15:58:32 TomB: ok, glad you proposed it -- so i guess that means you support the idea? :-) 15:58:41 q+ to suggest that maybe some vocs need highlighting 15:58:46 +1 for putting list related to use cases in use case document -- as related to use cases 15:58:50 Representative samples is fine with me 15:58:58 +1 15:59:19 TomB: somebody should make a proposal to the group, somebody to take ownership of what to happen with vocabularies section 15:59:32 Relation to CKAN on the vocabularies? 15:59:49 antoine: can somebody take that action? 16:00:04 +1 16:00:11 antoine++ 16:00:14 antoine: volunteers himself 16:00:25 i would offer to volunteer but i don't want to over-commit 16:00:26 jeff volunteers 16:00:36 jeff++ 16:00:40 jeff++ 16:00:42 i reckon rsinger would be good at that stuff too 16:00:54 ACTION: Antoine and jeff_ to make a proposal to the group about vocabularies and datasets 16:01:05 The chairs should let EdSu pick victims :-) 16:01:14 antoine: ross might be a good candidate, too 16:01:27 +1 16:01:37 ... sees action as making the proposal, but maybe not the actual work 16:02:00 antoine: we've discussed problems and limitations already 16:02:06 q+ 16:02:11 -edsu 16:02:22 zakim, ack emma 16:02:22 emma, you wanted to suggest that maybe some vocs need highlighting 16:02:23 I see kcoyle on the speaker queue 16:02:36 zakim, ack kcoyle 16:02:36 I see no one on the speaker queue 16:02:57 kcoyle: can we decide now which topics to discuss next week? 16:03:10 antoine: for many topics we don't have owners 16:03:19 Today's telecon is #30 - we have a maximum of 13 remaining 16:03:27 yes, tomB that's the issue 16:03:29 kcoyle: next week we should set ourselves to make deadlines 16:03:33 Next week : give some milestones for the report 16:03:52 ADJOURNED 16:03:57 bye bye.... 16:03:57 -GordonD 16:04:00 -kcoyle 16:04:01 -jeff_ 16:04:03 -kefo 16:04:05 -PMurray 16:04:08 Thanks, Lars. Great job. 16:04:09 Bye! 16:04:15 -jneubert 16:04:16 bye 16:04:20