16:08:55 RRSAgent has joined #html-a11y
16:08:55 logging to http://www.w3.org/2011/02/24-html-a11y-irc
16:08:57 RRSAgent, make logs world
16:08:58 RS: canvas subteam proposal -- number of facets to canvas a11y -- 1. provide accessible interfaces to AT that can be accessed to represent what is seen in canvas
16:08:59 Zakim, this will be 2119
16:08:59 ok, trackbot; I see WAI_PFWG(HTML TF)11:00AM scheduled to start 9 minutes ago
16:09:00 Meeting: HTML Accessibility Task Force Teleconference
16:09:00 Date: 24 February 2011
16:09:05 zakim, this is 2119
16:09:05 ok, MichaelC; that matches WAI_PFWG(HTML TF)11:00AM
16:09:16 agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-a11y/2011Feb/0210.html
16:09:20 chair: Mike_Smith
16:09:25 regrets: Laura_Carlson, Janina_Sajka
16:09:34 +Léonie_Watson
16:09:35 RS: support in IE9 RC beta and in chrome (in the last week)
16:10:01 RS: hardest part about canvas is getting fallback content loaded -- hidden from user, hidden content usually not mapped; now can map and can focus on other needs
16:11:04 +Cynthia_Shelly
16:12:01 http://dev.w3.org/html5/status/issue-status.html#ISSUE-131
16:12:02 RS: 2) need to be able to have a FocusRing follow system settings (color, background, font size, etc.) -- support for author to draw FocusRing while reporting focus position to AT -- simplified drawFocusRing -- had an issue where if author wantede to draw himself,would drop out of FocusRing and couldn't be reported -- now, forcing FocusRing to follow system conventions -- if system has...
16:12:04 ...FocusRing drawing mechanism, uses that -- outlined algorithm into how can compute bounding rectangle for object and object info DOM -- if no drawing path, will be handled by UA
16:12:22 scribe: oedipus
16:12:51 RS: old drawFocusRing took x,y coordinates -- not how you draw carets for text boxes; always moving focus -- on every platform, selection and carets a11y APIs separate from what need for FocusRing
16:13:41 RS: created setCaretSelectionRect -- forget if have RTE or not in Canvas, gives author ability to give position whether user selecting content or using cursor -- defines what caret position and selectoin position is and exposes that to AT
16:14:31 RS: need contestual info (element) and actual caret position so can center zoom point on caret based on magnification level -- may want caret to left of zoom, etc.
16:15:04 q?
16:15:09 RS: 3rd part: provide ability to get system setting for blink rate -- for those who suffer from seizures -- author can detect if blink rate set to custom level in system
16:15:43 RS: 4th: put in for metric for baseline for text --FocusRing or caret or selection position within content associated with text can get baseline to compute actyual bounding rectangle
16:15:52 RS: hixie ok with plan, question is when?
16:16:02 RS: testing the proposal with actual tools
16:17:21 RS: 1 more requirement for magnification -- need position and bounding rectangle for any part of the canvas -- challange will be to introduce this before last call -- something we can't rush through -- some optoins --could do what imagemap does to provide x,y and bounding rectangle or can use CSS styling -- querying devs which would you prefer
16:17:44 MS: process in HTML WG -- issue state: waiting for alternate or counter proposals -- due date 22 March 2011
16:18:16 MS: if objections, objector should write counter-proposal before 22 March 2011
16:18:32 kliehm has joined #html-a11y
16:18:35 RS: would like to hear thoughts on positioning of content
16:18:43 MS: take to discussion on public-html list
16:18:55 MS: great to hear canvas a11y progress
16:19:17 http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/wiki/Canvas
16:19:20 http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/wiki/Canvas/Meetings
16:19:29 http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/wiki/Canvas/Meetings/Minutes
16:20:10 RS: assuming we don't get pushback like to try to get ua devs to implement it -- FF and IE trying to get out new versions, so not much flexibility there
16:20:33 MS: squeaky wheel gets the grease -- discrete amount of time to accomodate HTML a11y
16:20:45 TOPIC: Media Subteam Report
16:21:37 JF: single largest issue remaining is multitrak API -- how to provide support to supplementary binary assets -- lot of discussion -- looked at 8 different ways forward -- polled people on call, still some divergence especially amongst UA devs
16:21:53 +Martin_Kliehm
16:21:58 JF: this is new territory -- not repairing bugs, but building in and extending capabilities
16:22:08 zakim, mute me
16:22:08 sorry, kliehm, I do not know which phone connection belongs to you
16:22:13 JF: 1 change proposal against HTML WG Issue 152
16:22:19 zakim, Martin_kliehm is me
16:22:19 +kliehm; got it
16:22:23 zakim, mute me
16:22:23 kliehm should now be muted
16:22:27 http://dev.w3.org/html5/status/issue-status.html#ISSUE-152
16:22:41 JF: consensus on call to continue in fashion we have been using -- dialogue on list -- much common ground but still some divergence
16:23:12 q?
16:23:28 JF: for f2f in march 2001, media subteam would like break-out session -- ideally on saturday -- so we can get together in same room and hash out details -- most of ateendees from weekly calls will be there -- silviaP trying to get funding to attend
16:23:43 JF: should have another change proposal in by March with internal consensus behind it
16:24:07 MS: HTML WG issue 152 is waiting for counter proposals -- change proposal submitted from silvia?
16:24:13 JF: no, i think FrankO of Microsoft
16:24:58 JF: silvia thinking of writing a CP; apple reps might write one, maybe a third; if stopped today would have to work through 3 or 4 -- thought best if could coalesce around CP that meets everyone's approval
16:25:22 MS: chairs have to evaluate each CP -- if can merge into common CP, that is preferable
16:25:27 JF: right, that is our goal
16:25:55 JF: a lot of issues coming to the attention of people -- more than a11y -- i18n, "widestreaming" -- complex topic
16:26:10 JF: very aware of 22 March 2011 deadline, but don't want to ruch -- we need to get this right
16:26:33 MS: should devote F2F time to this issue -- if need breakout session, then could do that
16:26:48 JF: not sure of agenda and logistics for F2F -- will discuss with Cooper
16:26:58 JF: engineers need to discuss low-level engineering as well
16:27:17 MC: should have time in agenda for breakouts -- media subgroup meet an addtitional day?
16:27:21 JF: not feasible
16:27:25 MC: ok, just checking
16:27:44 MS: should accomodate breakouts as needed
16:28:29 JF: issue of time stamp formats still quite open -- hearings in U.S. at FCC about mandating captioning -- keeping eye on that -- U.S. may mandate specific technology which will impact development
16:28:36 zakim, unmute me
16:28:36 kliehm should no longer be muted
16:28:37 TOPIC: Bug Triage Subteam Report
16:29:21 MK: down to almost no bugs to which to apply a11ytf keyword -- looked at all marked a11y to see if needed a11ytf attention and keyword
16:29:31 MK: looking at what appears each week
16:29:50 http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=10525
16:30:08 "Please try to improve Bugzilla's accessibility/usability problems before Last Call"
16:30:09 MK: would be good if someone in TF could handle HTML WG bug 10525 -- needs owner, needs to be done
16:30:45 GJR: i will do a bugzilla review of w3c version versus current version (version 4, recently released)
16:31:53 ACTION: Gregory - review w3c bugzilla installation versus newest version 4, coordinate with those who volunteered, present options and needs
16:31:54 Created ACTION-105 - - review w3c bugzilla installation versus newest version 4, coordinate with those who volunteered, present options and needs [on Gregory Rosmaita - due 2011-03-03].
16:32:07 zakim, mute me
16:32:07 kliehm should now be muted
16:32:18 TOPIC: ARIA Mapping Subteam
16:32:46 SF: haven't had meeting lately -- waiting on the chairs to address issues outlined in CPs -- timeline?
16:33:04 MS: chairs haven't yet scheduled date -- perhaps paulc can comment
16:33:13 PC: issue number?
16:33:17 SF: 129
16:33:21 http://dev.w3.org/html5/status/issue-status.html#ISSUE-129
16:33:23 PC: not in current queue
16:33:32 PC: did receive request about this via public-html
16:33:39 PC: reason why wanted decision on this issue?
16:33:48 RS: because we have a lot of work to do with UA devs
16:33:57 PC: has impact outside of WG, right?
16:33:59 RS: yes
16:34:04 PC: not clear in original message
16:34:15 MS: does resolution of this issue have implementation impact on UAs
16:34:21 SF: yes, definitely
16:34:34 RS: replaced ARIA section to define where ARIA can and cannot be applied
16:34:58 Other than the intro and signature the request only said: "When will the chairs have a decision on the straw poll vote on issue 129?"
16:35:11 SF: part about doc conformance; default roles defined in ARIA user agents must implement -- default role on element, has to apply that role -- one of the major issues
16:35:27 MS: should be prioritizing talk with chairs
16:35:40 PC: RS provided no rationale as to why chairs should consider earlier
16:36:09 RS: don't know what your queue looks like -- understand need for deadlines -- we rushed to meet it, and then it sits there, which is frustrating --
16:36:17 +1 to Rich
16:36:46 PC: only making the point that if the chairs get 5 emailis requesting review need to know why so important to requesting entities
16:37:16 PC: suggest RS respond to own message as to why an earlier decision on ARIA in HTML5 is needed
16:37:38 PC: are moving forward with change proposal review
16:38:01 PC: some issues may moot others -- chairs prioritize on ratinoale given to us by WG memberts, suggest RS do the same
16:38:14 MS: will follow up on this too to ensure gets into charis' queue
16:38:24 MS: default roles is higher priority than document conformance
16:38:40 SF: people are implementing HTML5 now, basing decisions on what is in spec, hence urgency
16:38:55 RS: have product teams implementing HTML5 now so need to get addressed
16:39:30 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2011Feb/0399.html
16:39:59 SF: there was a call for change in regards issue 161 (A11y API Mapping) -- expired yesterday -- sam sent out notice that "closed without prejudice" -- responded to him saying would provide CP today -- working on document now including advice as to how to procede
16:40:35 http://dev.w3.org/html5/status/issue-status.html#ISSUE-161
16:40:38 MS: not going to do anything about it but leave to discretion of chairs -- not going to second guess chairs' decisons on
16:41:08 SF: would lilke a reasonably timely reply -- don't want to wait 2 weeks to find out won't be opened
16:42:23 PC: if submit change proposal today, chairs will at least consider it -- 4 due yesterday -- chairs immediately requested counter proposals to be completed by 22 March 2011 --schedule to LC needs to give people writing coutner proposals as much time to compose as given to thiose writing CPs
16:42:33 PC: i speak for Paul and not for all 3 co-chairs
16:43:09 SF: the issue says create a reference -- creating document -- wo'n't be ready for LC, asking to have reference to docuement in HTML5
16:43:15 SF: issue is to have a reference to it
16:43:36 PC: don't see why HTML5 in LC can't reference an editor's draft -- no logistical or administrative barrier to that
16:43:57 gotta drop off folks
16:44:09 SF: only thing been told is hixie stating "special status" for referenced documents in HTML5, but hasn't articulated what constitutes a "special status"
16:44:17 PC: i don't know what he means by that either
16:44:23 PC: why did you miss this deadlijne?
16:44:50 PC: been there for a moth -- on last weeks' WG agenda as closing next week -- TF needs to pay more attention to these dates
16:45:09 SF: human error -- previously with human error hixie has been given extentions
16:45:19 PC: concewrned we are speaking in circles here
16:45:41 SF: will get CP in today, wanted clarification on what CP should say so would be accepted
16:45:47 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/02/24-html-a11y-minutes.html oedipus
16:46:01 MS: SF please try to join HTML WG call at noon to discuss
16:46:14 SF: can't make those calls because have to pick up kids from school
16:46:32 RS: chairs pretty swamped -- what is big deal if don't get into today
16:47:46 PC: sam took action item to call for counterporopsals if submitted by today -- immediately ready to take action -- longer it takes to file CP, less time people have to do counter proposal, which may sway chairs to leave issue closed because unfair to counter proposals because original propoasal deadline extended
16:47:58 PC: want to ensure that TF undertstands pressure on the chairs
16:48:14 TOPIC: Change Proposal for Issue 134
16:48:35 HTML A11y TF Action-87 "Create change proposal for ISSUE-134 http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/134": http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/track/actions/87
16:48:38 oedipus: allow menu and command to represent a tab list
16:48:38 HTML WG ISSUE-134: "Provide tablist and tab states for menu and command elements respectively" http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/134
16:48:41 bound to HTML Bug 10831: http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=10831
16:48:44 change proposal for HTML WG ISSUE 134: http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/ChangeProposals/tablist_and_tab_states_for_menu_and_command_elements (thansk to everett zufelt and jason kiss)
16:48:48 s/tab list/tablist/
16:49:09 oedipus: the state of tab controls is normally only visually indicated
16:49:31 … and this makes cases for tabs are unfocusable
16:50:02 … current state is that this creates much more work for Web devlopers
16:50:24 … but there is a solution for this, which is to provide support natively
16:50:34 "The HTML5 menu element, along with the command element, can currently represent a menu, context menu, or toolbar. Since a group of tab controls effectively acts as a menu of command elements for showing and hiding associated content tab panels, it is, therefore, proposed that the menu and command elements are well-suited to serve the purposes of a tabbed interface, and that their functionality be
16:50:36 extended to represent a tablist of tab controls and to identify which of those tabs is selected. "
16:51:09 " * Add a tablist state to the menu element.
16:51:11 * Add a tab state to the command element.
16:51:13 * Add a tabpanel state to command element.
16:51:14 * Add a tabgroup attribute to the command element."
16:52:12 those are role values
16:52:24 "If no action is taken on this issue, then, without developers doing rather significant work to make a tabbed interface accessible using WAI-ARIA and additional scripting, only the selected tab in each tablist will be focusable, meaning that the remaining tabs from each tablist will not be available or accessible to assistive technologies."
16:52:41 http://dev.w3.org/html5/status/issue-status.html#ISSUE-134
16:52:58 dropping now folks. sorry
16:53:11 -Rich
16:53:46 http://dev.w3.org/html5/status/issue-status.html#ISSUE-134
16:54:05 richard correct tablist, tab, and tabpanel would be @role values
16:54:21 tabgroup would be a new attribute on command element
16:54:25 TOPIC: Face2Face Meeting
16:54:27 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-a11y/2011Feb/0210.html
16:54:38 MS: list of proposed topics
16:55:34 MS: have some cases of miscommunication about process -- would like to prevent going forward -- useful to have process discussion and decision policy document and some of the contentious issues around communication
16:55:56 MS: 2nd) session on how to write a good change proposal -- how to avoid accusations of incomplete
16:56:14 MS: tuturial on change proposal writing would be helpful -- volunteers?
16:56:38 MS: 3rd) discussion over technologies: media, canvas, how to procede with longdesc, ARIA integration
16:56:45 MS: ambiguity about keyboard access
16:57:00 GJR: can prepar keyboard access discussion starter
16:57:08 q?
16:57:12 MS: bugs and issues that need to be brought to the WG's attention
16:57:21 q+
16:57:31 qck oed
16:57:33 ack oedipus
16:57:49 oedipus: I can prepare a keyboard-access starter discussion
16:57:55 … I will attend remotely
16:58:02 … I would like to go through it all
16:58:05 q+
16:58:08 -Microsoft
16:58:12 … so I can present what are issues, what has changed
16:58:26 ack MichaelC
16:58:33 chane proposal for issue 161 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-a11y/2011Feb/0212.html
16:58:37 q?
16:58:55 Stevef, thanks
16:59:09 np
16:59:50 ACTION: Gregory - prepare keyboard access high-level issues discussion for F2F
16:59:50 Created ACTION-106 - - prepare keyboard access high-level issues discussion for F2F [on Gregory Rosmaita - due 2011-03-03].
17:00:45 s/starter discussion/overview and current-status focusing on high-level and discrete issues/
17:00:50 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/02/24-html-a11y-minutes.html oedipus
17:01:11 JF: need to plan timeframe for 2 days -- even a skeleton at this point would be helpful
17:01:31 MS: narrow down to day and part of day you will have critical mass
17:01:44 JF: want to do breakout in afternoon to accomodate austrialian time zoners
17:02:00 q?
17:02:04 MS: can discuss on mailing list -- will kick off discussion with list of topics -- try to send out tomorrow
17:02:11 [ADJOURNED]
17:02:11 -Cynthia_Shelly
17:02:19 -kliehm
17:02:25 -Léonie_Watson
17:02:27 -Eric_Carlson
17:02:29 -Marco_Ranon
17:02:33 -MikeSmith
17:02:39 -Gregory_Rosmaita
17:02:47 -Michael_Cooper
17:02:53 -John_Foliot
17:03:42 zakim, please part
17:03:42 Zakim has left #html-a11y
17:03:43 leaving. As of this point the attendees were John_Foliot, Rich, Gregory_Rosmaita, Eric_Carlson, MikeSmith, Michael_Cooper, Marco_Ranon, Steve_Faulkner, paulc, Cynthia_Shelly,
17:03:48 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/02/24-html-a11y-minutes.html oedipus
17:03:51 ... Microsoft, Léonie_Watson, kliehm
17:05:13 present+ Martin_Kliehm
17:05:19 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/02/24-html-a11y-minutes.html oedipus
17:05:54 present- Microsoft, kliehm
17:05:56 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/02/24-html-a11y-minutes.html oedipus
17:06:48 i/canvas subteam proposal /TOPIC: Canvas Subteam Report/
17:06:52 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/02/24-html-a11y-minutes.html oedipus
17:07:50 i/oedipus: the state of tab controls/scribenick: MikeSmith/
17:08:08 i/"The HTML5 menu element/scribenick: oedipus/
17:08:41 i/oedipus: I can prepare a keyboard-access/scribenick: MikeSmith/
17:09:18 i/JF: need to plan timeframe/scribenick: oedipus/
17:09:23 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/02/24-html-a11y-minutes.html oedipus
17:19:56 I see 2 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2011/02/24-html-a11y-actions.rdf :
17:19:56 ACTION: Gregory - review w3c bugzilla installation versus newest version 4, coordinate with those who volunteered, present options and needs [1]
17:19:56 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2011/02/24-html-a11y-irc#T16-31-53
17:19:56 ACTION: Gregory - prepare keyboard access high-level issues discussion for F2F [2]
17:19:56 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2011/02/24-html-a11y-irc#T16-59-50