14:50:52 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #i18n
14:50:52 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2011/02/23-i18n-irc
14:50:58 <aphillip> trackbot, prepare meeting
14:51:00 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs world
14:51:02 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be 4186
14:51:02 <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see I18N_CoreWG()10:00AM scheduled to start in 9 minutes
14:51:03 <trackbot> Meeting: Internationalization Core Working Group Teleconference
14:51:03 <trackbot> Date: 23 February 2011
14:51:31 <aphillip> Chair:   Addison Phillips
14:51:42 <aphillip> Scribe:  Addison Phillips
14:51:42 <aphillip> Scribe:  Addison Phillips
14:51:50 <aphillip> ScribeNick: aphillip
14:52:00 <aphillip> Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/member-i18n-core/2011Feb/0013.html
14:52:08 <aphillip> RRSAgent, set logs world-visible
14:52:14 <aphillip> RRSAgent, draft minutes
14:52:14 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/02/23-i18n-minutes.html aphillip
14:52:34 <aphillip> RRSAgent, draft minutes
14:52:34 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/02/23-i18n-minutes.html aphillip
14:59:16 <kojiishi> kojiishi has joined #i18n
15:00:20 <Zakim> I18N_CoreWG()10:00AM has now started
15:00:20 <r12a> zakim, dial richard please
15:00:22 <Zakim> ok, r12a; the call is being made
15:00:27 <Zakim> +Addison_Phillips
15:00:40 <r12a> hurrry up zakim
15:00:45 <Zakim> + +972.5.225.5aaaa
15:01:07 <r12a> zakim, dial richard please
15:01:08 <Zakim> ok, r12a; the call is being made
15:01:10 <Zakim> +Richard
15:01:35 <aphillip> zakim, Richard is r12a
15:01:35 <Zakim> +r12a; got it
15:02:20 <Zakim> +??P12
15:02:32 <kojiishi> zakim, ??p12 is me
15:02:32 <Zakim> +kojiishi; got it
15:03:27 <Zakim> +David
15:04:04 <Zakim> +freedom
15:04:18 <Norbert> Norbert has joined #i18n
15:04:18 <r12a> kenny, are you joining the call
15:04:46 <Zakim> +??P19
15:05:14 <aphillip> Topic: Minutes and Agenda review
15:05:40 <aphillip> review documents for review and such
15:05:53 <aphillip> Topic: Action Items
15:06:32 <aphillip> Change the language tags article to say that now there is an extension defined, and describe it briefly
15:06:39 <aphillip> trackbot, close ACTION-4
15:06:39 <trackbot> ACTION-4 Change the language tags article to say that now there is an extension defined, and describe it briefly closed
15:06:50 <aphillip> also did "choosing language tags"
15:06:56 <aphillip> please send comments
15:07:14 <r12a> http://www.w3.org/International/questions/qa-choosing-language-tags
15:07:18 <aphillip> Check on HTML5 language tag validator and send any comments
15:07:27 <aphillip> addison: need to copy list
15:07:35 <r12a> http://www.org/International/track
15:07:46 <aphillip> Update review radar and ping www-international seeking comments
15:07:58 <aphillip> close ACTION-8
15:07:58 <trackbot> ACTION-8 Update review radar and ping www-international seeking comments closed
15:08:35 <aphillip> 	Review techniques index pages to check that all the current links in the index point to the right place 
15:09:02 <aphillip> Publish language tags article
15:09:11 <aphillip> trackbot, close ACTION-22
15:09:11 <trackbot> ACTION-22 Publish language tags article closed
15:09:24 <aphillip> 	Propose advancement of UTR#20 to publication based on our revision and noting that we plan a substantive revision
15:10:16 <aphillip> addison: done... will check why not in archives
15:10:29 <aphillip> Topic: Info Share
15:11:30 <aphillip> richard: Unicode version 6 complete text was published
15:11:34 <r12a> http://www.w3.org/blog/International/2011/02/22/unicode_version_6_0_complete_text_of_cor
15:12:00 <aphillip> richard: multilingual web workshop in Pisa
15:12:12 <aphillip> ... anyone who would like to speak, please send in registration
15:12:16 <aphillip> ... or anyone who wants to come
15:12:57 <r12a> http://www.multilingualweb.eu/documents/pisa-workshop/pisa-cfp
15:13:14 <aphillip> Topic: CSS3 transform "capitalize" thread
15:13:35 <aphillip> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-i18n-core/2011JanMar/0061.html
15:15:25 <aphillip> addison: propose that we ask Unicode to assemble this data?
15:18:00 <kojiishi> http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css3-text/#text-transform
15:18:48 <aphillip> kojiishi: just updated the spec, defining it as each word in title case per Unicode
15:18:54 <aphillip> ... word definition is unclear
15:19:02 <aphillip> ... and internationalized titlecase is difficult
15:19:20 <aphillip> ... saying in following text that UAX29 suggested and implementation defined
15:19:36 <kojiishi> 'tis -> 'Tis
15:20:21 <aphillip> kojiishi: word segementation could be better defined for capitalization
15:20:29 <aphillip> ... also provide for language dependent rules and tables
15:21:07 <r12a> zakim, who's making noise?
15:21:22 <Zakim> r12a, listening for 14 seconds I heard sound from the following: Addison_Phillips (18%), matial (3%)
15:23:19 <Zakim> +fantasai
15:24:15 <aphillip> richard: capitalize option depends on finding each word and then capitalizing
15:24:34 <aphillip> ... but also word or phrase done sometimes?
15:24:39 <aphillip> fantasai: just did an update
15:24:49 <aphillip> ... copied over text
15:25:04 <aphillip> ... put first letter (grapheme?) in titlecase
15:25:29 <aphillip> ... even if you go back to CSS1, doesn't do anything language specific
15:25:51 <aphillip> ... everything straightforward except for definition of "what is a word"
15:26:02 <aphillip> ... points to UAX29 for text segementation
15:26:11 <aphillip> ... this is not the way to do proper title case
15:26:42 <aphillip> ... rarely gives good results
15:26:55 <aphillip> ... just define well enough to make it work reliably
15:27:25 <aphillip> r12a: you've changed word to ttitlecase
15:27:35 <aphillip> fantasai: should be checked in
15:27:54 <Zakim> +??P28
15:28:01 <aphillip> r12a: is there an option to capitalize beginning of phrase
15:28:08 <aphillip> ... not just whole phrase
15:28:24 <aphillip> fantasai: have to do sentence detection
15:28:36 <aphillip> ... stuff like embedded spans would interefere
15:28:58 <aphillip> r12a: sort of like "first letter" though
15:29:40 <aphillip> fantasai: need to correct text to "titlecase" and fix tests instead of uppercase
15:30:01 <aphillip> r12a: first-letter is more useful than each word
15:30:12 <aphillip> ... may still be language specific issues
15:30:27 <aphillip> ... may be useful to ask Unicode to spec out more
15:31:01 <aphillip> fantasai: does user-agent recognize (e.g.) ' or T as first letter in 'Tis
15:31:26 <aphillip> ... does UAX29 recognize? probably just use for text segmentation
15:31:33 <aphillip> ... then apply to each word
15:31:52 <aphillip> !Kung
15:32:48 <aphillip> ij
15:32:54 <aphillip> IJ
15:33:56 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/02/23-i18n-minutes.html aphillip
15:34:20 <aphillip> kojiishi: looking at spec
15:34:26 <aphillip> ... maybe say use Unicode definition
15:34:35 <aphillip> ... and not "first letter"
15:34:35 <kojiishi> http://www.unicode.org/versions/Unicode6.0.0/ch05.pdf
15:34:49 <kojiishi> 5.18 Case Mappings, Titlecasing
15:34:50 <aphillip> ... section 5.18,
15:35:21 <aphillip> ... apply Unicode titlecasing to each word
15:35:55 <aphillip> addison: allow for language specific?
15:37:37 <aphillip> fantasai: want to see it consistently broken in all cases
15:37:59 <aphillip> r12a: if we point to Unicode, then up to Unicode how far they take it
15:38:19 <aphillip> fantasai: is this worth having inconsistent implementations?
15:38:46 <aphillip> r12a: if we point to Unicode, then now it will be consistent (ly bad)
15:38:51 <aphillip> ... but could improve over time
15:39:26 <aphillip> r12a: might be able to plug in specific languages
15:39:41 <aphillip> fantasai: can't count on it generally, even if work on your computer
15:39:49 <aphillip> ... can't count on results is not helpful
15:40:35 <aphillip> q+ norbert
15:40:42 <aphillip> ack norbert
15:40:56 <aphillip> norbert: don't agree with word "style", since this changes text
15:41:19 <aphillip> r12a: articles on our site written in sentence case, but using a style to lowercase them
15:41:27 <aphillip> ... so it really is styling
15:41:36 <aphillip> ... proper e.g. German casing should be in text
15:41:43 <aphillip> ... this is just "prettyfication"
15:42:15 <aphillip> fantasai: feature doesn't work most of the time and won't
15:42:26 <aphillip> ... really need human intervention
15:42:37 <Norbert> q+ norbert
15:42:39 <aphillip> ... or sophisticated linguistic analysis
15:43:13 <aphillip> ... and already making undefined
15:43:27 <aphillip> ack norbert
15:43:41 <aphillip> Norbert: in German, casing makes a difference in meaning
15:43:47 <aphillip> ... e.g. fliegen vs. Fliegen
15:43:51 <aphillip> ... not just matter of style
15:44:01 <aphillip> ... titlecasing would change meaning
15:44:22 <aphillip> r12a: so you'd remove style for translation into German
15:44:31 <aphillip> Norbert: really a dangerous feature
15:45:03 <aphillip> addison: is it deprecated enough?
15:45:23 <aphillip> fantasai: did add some text, will take to CSS WG to ask them (if you want)
15:45:36 <r12a> q+
15:45:44 <aphillip> ack r12a
15:46:04 <David> q+
15:46:06 <aphillip> r12a: if I use this, would probably use in first letter case only
15:46:19 <aphillip> ... so I would find it useful in that case
15:46:44 <aphillip> fantasai: can give example of words broken
15:46:47 <aphillip> ack David
15:47:01 <aphillip> zakim, who is here?
15:47:01 <Zakim> On the phone I see Addison_Phillips, matial, r12a, kojiishi, David, freedom, Norbert, fantasai, kennyluck
15:47:02 <David> can you hear me?
15:47:04 <Zakim> On IRC I see Norbert, kojiishi, RRSAgent, Zakim, aphillip, David, freedom, kennyluck, r12a, trackbot
15:47:12 <Zakim> -David
15:47:21 <David> 1 minute while I redail
15:47:38 <aphillip> addison: couple of proposals:
15:47:46 <aphillip> ... first, ask Unicode to assemble information
15:47:51 <Zakim> +David
15:48:07 <r12a> s/first letter/:first-letter/
15:48:19 <aphillip> ... second, ask CSS to further deprecate or provide negative examples
15:48:45 <aphillip> David: recommend deprecation
15:49:03 <r12a> q+
15:49:04 <aphillip> ... a lot stronger in saying in some cases that it will alter meaning
15:49:08 <aphillip> ack r12a
15:49:32 <aphillip> r12a: thinking about this in cases where use style and then text translated
15:49:43 <aphillip> ... but you wouldn't use this property in the translation
15:49:52 <aphillip> ... something that works in English
15:50:03 <aphillip> ... not so dangerous
15:50:15 <kojiishi> if you deprecate, you may also loose first-letter case as well?
15:51:11 <r12a> q+
15:51:16 <aphillip> ack r12a
15:51:38 <aphillip> r12a: put health warning, but most of time it will be perfectly obvious that it not working right
15:52:08 <aphillip> fantasai: can be useful with first-letter
15:52:42 <aphillip> chair: proposals...
15:53:07 <aphillip> ... ask Unicode/CLDR to work on additional language-specific tailrings and data for titlecasing
15:53:19 <r12a> yes
15:53:20 <aphillip> fantasai: aginst
15:53:53 <aphillip> ... request when we actually need it
15:53:59 <aphillip> norbert: agree
15:54:24 <aphillip> kojiishi: could ask to optimize definition of word for titlecasing?
15:54:46 <David> q+
15:54:49 <kennyluck> q+
15:54:59 <aphillip> ... improve UAX29
15:55:06 <aphillip> ack
15:55:09 <aphillip> ack David
15:55:25 <aphillip> David: don't have a use case, significant work
15:55:36 <aphillip> ... so not worth asking at this point
15:55:39 <aphillip> ... ask for things we need
15:55:43 <r12a> q+
15:55:51 <aphillip> ack kennyluck
15:56:00 <aphillip> kennyluck: defer
15:56:04 <aphillip> ack r12a
15:56:15 <aphillip> r12a: got impression mark as keen to do this
15:56:33 <aphillip> fantasai: on their todo list, but not high priority
15:56:36 <aphillip> q?
15:57:11 <aphillip> chair: sense is that we're say "no formal request"
15:57:28 <aphillip> ... UAX29 improvements?
15:57:36 <aphillip> fantasai: no strong opinion
15:57:46 <r12a> yes
15:58:03 <aphillip> r12a: these things need to be done one day
15:58:44 <Zakim> -matial
16:00:03 <aphillip> chair: ask for formal deprecation? or ask for further negative examples, etc.?
16:00:08 <aphillip> r12a: the latter
16:00:16 <aphillip> norbert: can see first-letter case
16:00:19 <aphillip> ... corner cases
16:00:41 <kennyluck> suppport
16:01:35 <aphillip> fantasai: will just edit into spec, just need clear understanding of what to put there
16:01:53 <aphillip> addison: have WG members provide comments and suggested text?
16:02:01 <aphillip> fantasai: yes, post to www-style@
16:02:35 <aphillip> Topic: what time is the call at?
16:02:54 <aphillip> David: looking like 1500 UTC
16:03:12 <David> http://doodle.com/b58wqx87g4hqgkbc
16:03:22 <aphillip> Topic: AOB?
16:03:38 <aphillip> fantasai: proposal to hyphenate...
16:03:46 <aphillip> ... is all hyphentation just on first line only
16:03:56 <aphillip> r12a: some scripts where hyphentation happens on second line
16:04:06 <aphillip> ... ?
16:04:14 <aphillip> fantasai: need specific example
16:04:27 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/02/23-i18n-minutes.html aphillip
16:04:53 <Zakim> -fantasai
16:04:53 <Zakim> -kojiishi
16:04:54 <Zakim> -Norbert
16:04:54 <Zakim> -Addison_Phillips
16:04:58 <Zakim> -kennyluck
16:05:00 <Zakim> -David
16:05:04 <Zakim> -r12a
16:05:06 <r12a> addison, did you wnat to talk ?
16:05:25 <r12a> on th ephone ?
16:05:34 <r12a> zakim, dial richard
16:05:34 <Zakim> ok, r12a; the call is being made
16:05:35 <Zakim> +Richard
16:05:48 <r12a> zakim, who's here ?
16:05:48 <Zakim> On the phone I see freedom, Richard
16:05:49 <Zakim> On IRC I see Norbert, kojiishi, RRSAgent, Zakim, aphillip, David, freedom, kennyluck, r12a, trackbot
16:05:59 <Zakim> -freedom
16:06:25 <r12a> ok, addison i'm waiting on the bridge
16:06:33 <r12a> oh
16:06:41 <aphillip> rrsagent, bye
16:06:41 <RRSAgent> I see no action items