IRC log of css on 2011-02-23

Timestamps are in UTC.

16:53:36 [RRSAgent]
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logging to http://www.w3.org/2011/02/23-css-irc
16:53:53 [plinss]
rrsagent, make logs public
16:53:59 [plinss]
zakim, this will be style
16:53:59 [Zakim]
ok, plinss; I see Style_CSS FP()12:00PM scheduled to start in 7 minutes
16:54:24 [sylvaing]
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16:56:59 [Zakim]
Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has now started
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+dsinger
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+[Microsoft]
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zakim, mute dsinger
16:57:42 [Zakim]
dsinger should now be muted
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+plinss
16:58:03 [sylvaing]
Zakim, [Microsoft] has sylvaing
16:58:03 [Zakim]
+sylvaing; got it
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+David_Baron
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+[Microsoft.a]
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17:00:31 [JohnJan]
zakim, microsoft is johnjan
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+johnjan; got it
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+fantasai
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+ +1.650.275.aaaa
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+[Microsoft]
17:01:18 [arronei]
zakim, microsoft is me
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+arronei; got it
17:01:21 [bradk]
zakim, aaaa is me
17:01:21 [Zakim]
+bradk; got it
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+smfr
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+??P44
17:02:51 [kojiishi]
zakim, ??p44 is me
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+kojiishi; got it
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+Bert
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-fantasai
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+[Apple]
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+fantasai
17:06:37 [Bert]
Scribe: bert
17:06:41 [Bert]
Scribenick: bert
17:06:58 [Bert]
Chair: Peter
17:07:07 [Bert]
Topic: 1. CSS2.1 Issues / Test Status Update
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17:07:31 [johnjan_]
zakim, microsoft is johnjan
17:07:31 [Zakim]
sorry, johnjan_, I do not recognize a party named 'microsoft'
17:07:49 [Bert]
PL: Looking for data on block tests. Nothing happened there?
17:08:09 [Bert]
... We need to get this finished. My deadline is the ftf.
17:08:22 [Bert]
SG: Can we talk at the ftf?
17:08:44 [Bert]
PL: Wrap-up beforehand would be perfect, otherwise at ftf.
17:10:05 [hober]
zakim, [Apple] has hober
17:10:05 [Zakim]
+hober; got it
17:10:35 [Bert]
PL: Issue 205?
17:10:39 [plinss]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2010Sep/0074.html
17:11:32 [Bert]
EE: Can we postpone for a few minutes? Need my computer...
17:11:49 [Bert]
PL: Issue 207?
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17:12:27 [Bert]
EE: Not looked at margin collapsing yet. Sent a proposal on some other issue.
17:13:08 [Bert]
PL: Issue 214?
17:13:32 [Bert]
... There is a proposed edit.
17:14:02 [Bert]
SG: Would any of the edits require test changes?
17:14:11 [Bert]
PL: I think the tests already changed.
17:14:28 [Bert]
EE: Don't think rthere is anything open anymore agaist the issues list.
17:14:41 [plinss]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2011Feb/0528.html
17:15:28 [Bert]
AE: Didn't find any to change.
17:15:40 [Bert]
PL: Accept edits for 214?
17:15:47 [dbaron]
(which is the URL plinss pasted above)
17:16:20 [Zakim]
-fantasai
17:16:39 [Zakim]
+fantasai
17:17:00 [Bert]
RESOLVED: edit for 214 accepted.
17:18:47 [Bert]
BB: I have made a raw list of comments sent to www-style. Anybody interested in it?
17:19:08 [Bert]
EE: Can you add them to the wiki?
17:20:14 [Bert]
PL: The other issues on CSS 2.1 are also on the wiki.
17:20:23 [dsinger]
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17:20:35 [Bert]
BB: I find the wiki not really handy. hard to edit and not easy to see which issues are open and closed.
17:20:59 [Bert]
PL: Let's not switch tools for now.
17:21:23 [Bert]
SG: What needs to be done for next week in the tests?
17:21:29 [Zakim]
+[Apple.a]
17:21:37 [dsinger]
zakim, [apple.a] has dsinger
17:21:37 [Zakim]
+dsinger; got it
17:21:46 [Zakim]
-dsinger
17:21:49 [Bert]
... is there page that lists what remains to be done?
17:22:26 [Bert]
JJ: Should be on the two links given in the agenda.
17:22:37 [Bert]
SG: A single wiki page would be handy.
17:23:12 [Bert]
PL: It seems a few issues are complex enough that we need the ftf for them.
17:23:27 [Bert]
... But mostly we are waiting for enough implementations.
17:23:58 [Bert]
JJ: What does that mean for CSS 2.1? Will CSS 2.1 just sit there until a suitable beta is published?
17:24:09 [Bert]
PL: In theory, yes.
17:24:19 [Bert]
... We can change the spec if necessary.
17:24:40 [Bert]
SG: Are we planning to add any test cases for currently open issues?
17:25:00 [Bert]
PL: That was not my intention. I thimk we decided to close the test suite some time ago.
17:25:27 [Bert]
... We will have errata, a snapshot of the testsuite, and keep editing it. No additional tests.
17:26:06 [Bert]
... Maybe just if we have a substantive change with absolutely not coverage in the test suite...
17:26:14 [Bert]
Topic: 2. March F2F
17:26:14 [TabAtkins_]
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+TabAtkins_
17:26:53 [Bert]
PL: There is a wiki page for the agenda.
17:26:58 [dbaron]
http://wiki.csswg.org/planning/mountain-view-2011
17:27:05 [dbaron]
http://www.w3.org/Style/Group/2011/MountainView
17:27:11 [Bert]
SG: We have some extra MS people coming for layout/grid stuff.
17:27:32 [Bert]
PL: A new member from Adobe as well. Interested in "regions" and flowing text between them.
17:27:43 [Bert]
... I'm hoping they can attend.
17:28:10 [Bert]
TA: Google Chrome also will have a meeting on layout.
17:28:31 [Bert]
... They may not be at the ftf itself, but I will be at both meetings.
17:29:57 [Bert]
SF: We're also interested in flow regions from Adobe.
17:30:19 [Bert]
PL: Overlap with templates and other things. Good opp. for synergy.
17:30:32 [Bert]
... Please post other agenda items on wiki.
17:31:20 [Bert]
EE: Some css3-text issues. Please raise any other issues soon. Before April.
17:31:52 [Bert]
... With Koji trying to resolve all known issues. But expecting more than one Last Call anyway.
17:32:41 [Bert]
... There are still open issues we know about. But please mention any others soon.
17:33:22 [Bert]
SG: Tuesday would be good for layout, regions and related. So the extra MS people can come that day.
17:33:38 [Bert]
PL: Can you mention on the wiki what issues you like grouped?
17:33:46 [Bert]
... Then we can do agenda planning.
17:33:54 [Bert]
Topic: 3. Tokyo F2F / Workshop
17:34:03 [Bert]
PL: Some discussion about a workhop.
17:34:30 [Bert]
TA: Good idea, as said on the thread. Some sort of impromptu meeting.
17:34:43 [Bert]
KI: Some informal forum is preferred.
17:35:40 [Bert]
BB: Agreed. We don't have a sponsor for a costly event.
17:35:59 [Bert]
PL: Where would this be?
17:36:36 [Bert]
KI: So should I respond that we prefer some sort of informal forum?
17:36:44 [Bert]
PL: yes, that sounds good.
17:36:55 [Bert]
... I'm only available *before* our ftf, not after.
17:37:07 [Bert]
... May 30 or 31 is possible.
17:37:19 [Bert]
KI: Maybe I can ask for vote?
17:37:29 [Bert]
... I think EE preferred after the ftf?
17:38:03 [Bert]
BB: Slight pref for before, but can probably make after as well.
17:38:18 [Bert]
DB: It depends on what flights I can find.
17:38:40 [Bert]
TA: I already have my flights and can be there after. Otherwise have to rebook.
17:38:59 [Bert]
SG: Prefer before.
17:39:34 [Bert]
PL: Seems it's about 50-50...
17:39:56 [Bert]
... Our ftf dates are firm. I guess.
17:40:15 [Bert]
TA: yes, as I said, I already booked my flight...
17:40:32 [Bert]
PL: Koji, any idea when we can know when and where?
17:41:09 [Bert]
KI: Date is up to us. The place I can ask around. Probably Keio, maybe also NTT. I'm not so worried about that.
17:41:21 [Bert]
... How do we decide the date as soon as possible?
17:41:26 [Bert]
EE: Wiki?
17:41:41 [Bert]
PL: We can at leats start a wiki to collect ideas for the contents.
17:42:30 [Bert]
PL: We can give peopel a week and decide the date next week .
17:42:38 [Bert]
... who would be attenbding, apart from us?
17:42:54 [Bert]
KI: Some people who want to meet us. And it depends on the topics.
17:43:09 [Bert]
... EPUB people also.
17:43:13 [fantasai]
http://wiki.csswg.org/planning/tokyo-workshop-2011
17:43:19 [Bert]
... We can put that on the wiki, too.
17:43:50 [Bert]
SG: Yes, I'm interested in the constrants of japanese designers.
17:44:02 [Bert]
s/constrants/constraints/
17:44:28 [Bert]
Topic: 4. List-style-image
17:44:34 [plinss]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/w3c-css-wg/2011JanMar/0193.html
17:44:49 [dbaron]
I think there's a slight wording issue: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2011Feb/0674.html ... but otherwise it seems fine
17:45:39 [Bert]
TA: If you have an image with no ratio but a width and no height, the rules force the ratio to 1:1.
17:46:23 [fantasai]
http://wiki.csswg.org/spec/css2.1#issue-224
17:46:27 [Bert]
... Such an image is difficult to make, so I don't expect anything to break if list style images use the rules for images instead.
17:46:38 [Bert]
... We also don't have tests for it.
17:47:02 [Bert]
... Some browsers are quite close to my suggested rule.
17:47:17 [Bert]
... Another issue is making the wording easier.
17:47:34 [Bert]
... DB had some suggestions.
17:47:58 [Bert]
DB: There is something else: you leave some undefined cases, where no rules apply.
17:48:16 [Bert]
TA: Ah, you're right.
17:48:26 [Bert]
... Will fix that.
17:49:09 [Bert]
... Chrome and Opera handle such images, Opera does it like I propose. Chrome not exaxtly but close.
17:49:37 [Bert]
SG: Do you have the test case?
17:49:46 [Bert]
TA: looking...
17:50:02 [TabAtkins_]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2011Feb/0364.html
17:50:04 [Bert]
s/exaxtly/exactly/
17:50:46 [Bert]
TA: IE9 does what the spec says now.
17:50:57 [Bert]
... So I'm asking IE to change.
17:51:14 [Bert]
SG: So apparently the spec can be implemented.
17:51:36 [Bert]
TA: Yes, but it is inconsistent with images in other places.
17:51:52 [Bert]
SG: Do you know of a use case?
17:52:01 [Bert]
TA: Such images seem weird to me.
17:52:19 [Bert]
EE: Yes, I think we just spec'ed that for completeness.
17:52:34 [Bert]
SG: Are there any testcases for this now?
17:52:41 [Bert]
TA: Now, there aren't.
17:52:59 [Bert]
SG: Do we need to add some?
17:53:23 [Bert]
TA: We have one impl., Opera, that does it. So we don't have two impls. yet.
17:53:46 [Bert]
SG: We have one impl. for the current spec, too.
17:54:19 [Bert]
... Should we add a test case at all?
17:54:35 [Bert]
... Should the edit be in CSS3 instead?
17:55:00 [Bert]
EE: CSS2 and 3 cannot contradict each other, 3 can only be more precise.
17:55:59 [Bert]
DB: I think we can make the change and add the tests to the pool of tests to add *after* the PR test snapshot.
17:56:18 [JohnJan]
* agree with DB
17:56:44 [Bert]
BK: Do we make it undefined, or make your change?
17:56:59 [Bert]
TA: I propose to make the actual change.
17:57:41 [Bert]
DB: We can add tests after PR, they improve interop, but do not invalidate the PR.
17:58:14 [Bert]
PL: I think we can accept the edit for the CSS 2.1 errata.
17:59:02 [Bert]
BB: But we don't have errata, we have a WD currently.
17:59:13 [Bert]
PL: yes, but we will have errata later.
17:59:22 [Bert]
EE: I don't think we should postpone the edit.
17:59:41 [Bert]
PL: Conditionally accept?
18:00:04 [Bert]
EE: Yes, but want to review proposed tests first.
18:00:13 [Bert]
BB: OK with me.
18:00:21 [Bert]
BK: OK
18:00:23 [Bert]
SF: OK
18:00:49 [Zakim]
-[Microsoft.a]
18:00:51 [Zakim]
-smfr
18:00:52 [Zakim]
-David_Baron
18:00:52 [Zakim]
-TabAtkins_
18:00:53 [Zakim]
-johnjan
18:00:54 [Zakim]
-arronei
18:00:56 [Zakim]
-plinss
18:00:57 [Zakim]
-kojiishi
18:00:59 [Zakim]
-fantasai
18:01:01 [Zakim]
-[Apple]
18:01:01 [Bert]
RESOLVED: conditinally accept Tab's edit on list-style-image size, pending review of tests by Elika.
18:01:06 [Zakim]
-[Apple.a]
18:01:07 [Zakim]
-bradk
18:01:15 [Zakim]
-Bert
18:01:17 [Zakim]
Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has ended
18:01:18 [Zakim]
Attendees were dsinger, plinss, sylvaing, David_Baron, johnjan, fantasai, +1.650.275.aaaa, arronei, bradk, smfr, kojiishi, Bert, hober, [Apple], TabAtkins_
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