IRC log of ua on 2011-02-17

Timestamps are in UTC.

17:59:49 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #ua
17:59:49 [RRSAgent]
logging to http://www.w3.org/2011/02/17-ua-irc
17:59:51 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, make logs public
17:59:51 [Zakim]
Zakim has joined #ua
17:59:53 [trackbot]
Zakim, this will be WAI_UAWG
17:59:53 [Zakim]
ok, trackbot, I see WAI_UAWG()1:00PM already started
17:59:54 [trackbot]
Meeting: User Agent Accessibility Guidelines Working Group Teleconference
17:59:54 [trackbot]
Date: 17 February 2011
18:01:54 [kford]
Agenda+ Action item review
18:01:55 [kford]
505 - JR and JA consider how multimedia and executable requirements in
18:01:57 [kford]
2.9.3 might be improved?
18:01:58 [kford]
504 -JA rewrite 2.9.1
18:02:00 [kford]
503 - JA rewrite 2.9.2
18:02:02 [kford]
502 - JR Work on SC wording related to "Proximity of Status Information
18:02:04 [kford]
501 - Simon Create intent for Guideline 2.8
18:02:05 [kford]
500 - Kim And Greg to draft definition of Structural and Operable elements for 2.7.4, 2.7.6 and 2.7.7
18:02:07 [kford]
499 - 493 Jeanne updating Draft
18:02:08 [kford]
491 - Rewrite 1.8.5
18:02:10 [kford]
489 - Greg Write discussion of replacing the term "enabled element" as used in 1.3.1 Highlighted Items.
18:02:11 [kford]
some of these will be on a survey coming soon, others are on the list
18:02:13 [kford]
- please comment. Still others are yet to be completed.
18:02:14 [kford]
Agenda+ 2.9.3 Execution Placeholder
18:02:16 [kford]
Agenda+ 2.9.4 Execution Toggle
18:02:17 [kford]
Agenda+ 2.9.5 Playback Rate Adjustment for Prerecorded Content
18:02:19 [kford]
Agenda+ 2.9.6 Stop/Pause/Resume Multimedia
18:02:29 [JAllan]
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18:02:36 [jeanne]
jeanne has joined #ua
18:02:36 [kford]
zakim, agenda
18:02:36 [Zakim]
I don't understand 'agenda', kford
18:02:42 [kford]
zakim, agenda?
18:02:42 [Zakim]
I see 5 items remaining on the agenda:
18:02:43 [Zakim]
1. Action item review [from kford]
18:02:45 [Zakim]
2. 2.9.3 Execution Placeholder [from kford]
18:02:47 [Zakim]
3. 2.9.4 Execution Toggle [from kford]
18:02:48 [Zakim]
4. 2.9.5 Playback Rate Adjustment for Prerecorded Content [from kford]
18:02:49 [Zakim]
5. 2.9.6 Stop/Pause/Resume Multimedia [from kford]
18:02:58 [Zakim]
+JAllan
18:03:12 [Zakim]
+Jeanne
18:03:23 [Zakim]
+[Microsoft]
18:03:25 [jeanne]
zakim, who is here?
18:03:25 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Greg, JAllan, Jeanne, [Microsoft]
18:03:27 [Zakim]
On IRC I see jeanne, JAllan, Zakim, RRSAgent, kford, Greg, trackbot
18:03:31 [kford]
zakim, microsoft is kford
18:03:31 [Zakim]
+kford; got it
18:04:08 [Zakim]
+ +1.617.325.aaaa
18:04:14 [KimPatch]
KimPatch has joined #ua
18:05:19 [sharper]
sharper has joined #ua
18:05:34 [JAllan]
zakim, aaaa is really KimPatch
18:05:34 [Zakim]
+KimPatch; got it
18:05:34 [jeanne]
zakim, aaaa is really KimPatch
18:05:35 [Zakim]
sorry, jeanne, I do not recognize a party named 'aaaa'
18:05:39 [kford]
Chair: Jim_Allan
18:05:51 [kford]
rrsagent, make minutes
18:05:51 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/02/17-ua-minutes.html kford
18:06:07 [sharper]
zakim, code
18:06:07 [Zakim]
I don't understand 'code', sharper
18:06:13 [sharper]
zakim, code?
18:06:13 [Zakim]
the conference code is 82941 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.26.46.79.03 tel:+44.203.318.0479), sharper
18:06:52 [Zakim]
+??P6
18:07:01 [sharper]
zakim, ??P6 is sharper
18:07:01 [Zakim]
+sharper; got it
18:07:46 [kford]
Scribe: kford
18:09:22 [jeanne]
zakim, who is here?
18:09:22 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Greg, JAllan, Jeanne, kford, KimPatch, sharper
18:09:23 [Zakim]
On IRC I see sharper, KimPatch, jeanne, JAllan, Zakim, RRSAgent, kford, Greg, trackbot
18:10:02 [kford]
Present: Greg, Jim, Simon, Kim, Jim, Jeanne
18:10:12 [kford]
rrsagent, make minutes
18:10:12 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/02/17-ua-minutes.html kford
18:10:14 [JAllan]
regrets+ JanRichards
18:11:17 [kford]
zakim, agenda
18:11:17 [Zakim]
I don't understand 'agenda', kford
18:11:26 [kford]
zakim, take up item 1
18:11:26 [Zakim]
agendum 1. "Action item review" taken up [from kford]
18:11:46 [kford]
JA: Seems like all the action items from the meeting agenda made it to a survey.
18:12:02 [JAllan]
http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/36791/20110215/results
18:12:28 [kford]
JA: We'll take the survey up here.
18:16:57 [JAllan]
change intent for 2.9.1 to be more specific about users, instead of "some users" say users with X disability
18:19:19 [Zakim]
+[IPcaller]
18:20:11 [mhakkinen]
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18:20:12 [Greg]
Discussion of whether the Intent paragraph about presenting alternative content for background images is viable. While there is no such content in HTML/CSS, there may be for other technologies and the existing paragraph says "if any", so the user agent does not have to make up for any deficiencies in HTML, etc.
18:21:13 [JAllan]
Jim will rewrite 2.9.1 incorporating changes in the survey. we will leave in the sentence about background images in CSS
18:22:11 [Greg]
topic: ACTION-503 - 2.9.2 Time-Based Media Load-Only
18:23:47 [kford]
I am scribing.
18:24:10 [kford]
GL: Current wording would not make it clear to user that video is paused or how it should be started.
18:24:40 [kford]
GL: Gives examples like status bar message communicating video paused state.
18:25:26 [kford]
GL: Full comments found in survey response at http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/36791/20110215/
18:26:00 [kford]
JA: Any comments here?
18:26:06 [kford]
KP: I think it is good.
18:26:14 [kford]
kford I think it is good also.
18:26:15 [JAllan]
+1 to intent Jim, Kim, Kelly
18:26:45 [kford]
GL: Example 3 removed because it is AT compat and doesn't belong here.
18:26:54 [kford]
KP: I agree.
18:27:16 [kford]
JA: Here is where it gets confusing. HTML5 has a poster. Discussion took up a lot of time.
18:27:48 [kford]
JA: In HTML5 task force talked about html5 poster. This is a placeholder for the movie, usually the first frame.
18:28:11 [kford]
JA: Today usually have big button or something else obvious about playing.
18:28:47 [jeanne]
When animation is displayed, the information shall be displayable in at least one non-animated presentation mode at the option of the user.
18:28:52 [JAllan]
The user can load time-based media content such thatthe content is not played until explicit user request.
18:29:27 [kford]
JS: I pasted part of section 508.
18:30:58 [Zakim]
-Jeanne
18:31:06 [kford]
GL: If we look at what Jim pasted in, we are making it sound like something the user does actively on a per animation basis.
18:31:46 [kford]
JA: I'll mangle some more on this one.
18:33:05 [JAllan]
change the wording of the SC
18:33:08 [kford]
rrsagent, make minutes
18:33:08 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/02/17-ua-minutes.html kford
18:33:14 [kford]
3. Intent of Success Criterion 1.4.1
18:34:34 [kford]
Group talking about comments in survey.
18:35:13 [kford]
MH: I was thinking about text legibility in a user agent.
18:35:44 [kford]
JA: Are you saying change the name of all of 1.4?
18:35:53 [kford]
MH: No just an example.
18:36:10 [kford]
MH: Give a scenario of improved text legibility.
18:36:39 [kford]
JA: Is everyone agree with Greg's word changes i.e. deleting much of the text after the new text. JA inserting.
18:36:42 [JAllan]
new intent for 1.4.1 Users need to able to access a wide range of font sizes, styles, colors, and other attributes in order to find the combination that works best for their particular needs. For example, some users want to increase font size to make text more legible, while other users want to reduce the font size to decrease the need to scroll the content. Other users may want to set a...
18:36:44 [JAllan]
...solid color behind all text in order to cover background images that might reduce readability.
18:37:32 [JAllan]
Users need to be able to access a wide range of font sizes, styles, colors, and other attributes in order to find the combination that works best for their particular needs. For example, some users want to increase font size to make text more legible, while other users want to reduce the font size to decrease the need to scroll the content. <NEW>Other users may want to set a solid color...
18:37:33 [JAllan]
...behind all text in order to cover background images that might reduce readability.
18:37:38 [kford]
Group has no objections.
18:38:34 [JAllan]
action: Jeanne to use the following for intent for 1.4.1 Users need to be able to access a wide range of font sizes, styles, colors, and other attributes in order to find the combination that works best for their particular needs. For example, some users want to increase font size to make text more legible, while other users want to reduce the font size to decrease the need to scroll the...
18:38:34 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-506 - Use the following for intent for 1.4.1 Users need to be able to access a wide range of font sizes, styles, colors, and other attributes in order to find the combination that works best for their particular needs. For example, some users want to increase font size to make text more legible, while other users want to reduce the font size to decrease the need to scroll the... [on Jeanne Spellman - due 2011-02-24].
18:38:35 [JAllan]
...content. Other users may want to set a solid color behind all text in order to cover background images that might reduce readability.
18:40:21 [kford]
New SC: Present Status Information in Proximity: The user can specify that status information for rendered elements be either incorporated into the rendering
18:40:23 [kford]
or displayed in proximity to the element.
18:40:33 [kford]
JR not present but group talking.
18:40:43 [kford]
MH: Do we have this someplace else?
18:40:51 [kford]
JA: Parts of it perhaps.
18:41:41 [kford]
Group neutral to accept on this.
18:42:02 [kford]
JA: I think we could incorporate concepts into intent. Put on hold until JR is present where he can advocate.
18:42:31 [kford]
ACTION-489 - Replacing the term "enabled element" as used in 1.3
18:43:10 [kford]
Group is in agreement.
18:43:19 [kford]
That is agreement with proposal.
18:43:31 [JAllan]
action: Jeanne to change wording of 1.3 to 1.3 Provide highlighting for selection, active keyboard focus, and interactive elements.
18:43:31 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-507 - Change wording of 1.3 to 1.3 Provide highlighting for selection, active keyboard focus, and interactive elements. [on Jeanne Spellman - due 2011-02-24].
18:43:55 [kford]
ACTION-489 - Replacing "enabled element" in 1.3.1
18:46:15 [kford]
Group talked about definition of visited links.
18:47:23 [kford]
JA: Is this issue of visited and unvisited a techical thing or a wording thing.
18:47:33 [kford]
GL: Not technical.
18:47:51 [kford]
rrs agent, make minutes
18:48:00 [kford]
rrsagent, make minutes
18:48:00 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/02/17-ua-minutes.html kford
18:48:52 [Greg]
One solution would be to say "(d) visited links (e) unvisited links" and after the Intent paragraph have a sentence explaining something like "Note: the definition of visited and unvisited links is up to the user agent. In some cases it might be links visited during the current session, or in other cases links visited in the browser's history until that is cleared."
18:49:00 [JAllan]
action: Jeanne to change text of 1.3.1 to 1.3.1 (former 3.5.1) Highlighted Items: The user can have the following highlighted when recognized, so that each class is uniquely distinguished (Level A):
18:49:00 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-508 - Change text of 1.3.1 to 1.3.1 (former 3.5.1) Highlighted Items: The user can have the following highlighted when recognized, so that each class is uniquely distinguished (Level A): [on Jeanne Spellman - due 2011-02-24].
18:49:01 [JAllan]
* (a) the selection
18:49:03 [JAllan]
* (b) the active keyboard focus
18:49:05 [JAllan]
* (c) the active window
18:49:07 [JAllan]
* (d) visited links
18:49:08 [JAllan]
* (e) unvisited links
18:50:27 [kford]
JA: When we have a SC with many small parts, we should explore combining the IER for all of these.
18:50:31 [JAllan]
action: Jeanne to add ""Note: the definition of visited and unvisited links is up to the user agent. In some cases it might be links visited during the current session, or in other cases links visited in the browser's history until that is cleared." to Intent for 1.3.1
18:50:31 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-509 - Add ""Note: the definition of visited and unvisited links is up to the user agent. In some cases it might be links visited during the current session, or in other cases links visited in the browser's history until that is cleared." to Intent for 1.3.1 [on Jeanne Spellman - due 2011-02-24].
18:51:30 [kford]
ACTION-489 - 1.3.2
18:51:32 [kford]
SC 1.3.2
18:52:26 [kford]
JA: Anyone have a problem with border formatting?
18:52:32 [kford]
Silence breaks out.
18:53:09 [kford]
rrsagent, make minutes
18:53:09 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/02/17-ua-minutes.html kford
18:53:23 [Greg]
Or could say "(c) border color, style, and thickness".
18:54:57 [kford]
Group discussion which attributes are important.
18:56:28 [JAllan]
1.3.2 (former 3.5.2) Highlighting Options: When highlighting classes specified by 1.3.1 Highlighted Items and 1.3.3 Highlighted Input Controls, the user can specify highlighting options that include at least (Level A):
18:56:30 [JAllan]
* (a) foreground colors,
18:56:31 [JAllan]
* (b) background colors, and
18:56:33 [JAllan]
* (c) border properties including color, style, and thickness
18:57:00 [Greg]
"(c) border properties including color, line style, and thickness"
18:57:50 [mhakkinen]
http://www.w3.org/TR/CSS21/box.html#propdef-border-style
18:58:01 [JAllan]
Action: Jeanne to change 1.3.2 to 1.3.2 (former 3.5.2) Highlighting Options: When highlighting classes specified by 1.3.1 Highlighted Items and 1.3.3 Highlighted Input Controls, the user can specify highlighting options that include at least (Level A):
18:58:01 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-510 - Change 1.3.2 to 1.3.2 (former 3.5.2) Highlighting Options: When highlighting classes specified by 1.3.1 Highlighted Items and 1.3.3 Highlighted Input Controls, the user can specify highlighting options that include at least (Level A): [on Jeanne Spellman - due 2011-02-24].
18:58:03 [JAllan]
* (a) foreground colors,
18:58:04 [JAllan]
* (b) background colors, and
18:58:06 [JAllan]
* (c) border properties including color, style, and thickness
18:58:56 [JAllan]
Action: Jeanne to add "CSS 2 specification http://www.w3.org/TR/CSS21/box.html#propdef-border-style" to resources for 1.3.2
18:58:56 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-511 - Add "CSS 2 specification http://www.w3.org/TR/CSS21/box.html#propdef-border-style" to resources for 1.3.2 [on Jeanne Spellman - due 2011-02-24].
18:59:03 [kford]
Topic: ACTION-489 - 1.3.3
18:59:05 [kford]
SC 1.3.3
18:59:07 [mhakkinen]
http://www.w3.org/TR/2011/CR-css3-background-20110215/
19:00:39 [JAllan]
Topic 1.3.3
19:00:49 [Zakim]
-kford
19:02:06 [JAllan]
Action: Jeanne to add 1.3.3 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2011JanMar/0045.html to working draft
19:02:06 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-512 - Add 1.3.3 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2011JanMar/0045.html to working draft [on Jeanne Spellman - due 2011-02-24].
19:02:57 [sharper]
close action-489
19:02:57 [trackbot]
ACTION-489 Write discussion of replacing the term "enabled element" as used in 1.3.1 Highlighted Items. closed
19:03:21 [JAllan]
Topic 1.11.1
19:06:46 [JAllan]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2011JanMar/0050.html
19:07:17 [kford]
kford has joined #ua
19:10:25 [sharper]
GL: recommended changes - provided sounds like an author think not a UA
19:11:23 [sharper]
GL: Example is weak - provided a new example
19:14:35 [sharper]
JA: summarises the consensus for re-intro of 1.11.1
19:14:39 [sharper]
KP: makes clearer
19:17:33 [sharper]
GL: Need to discuss the interpretation of title
19:17:43 [Greg]
Per Mark's comment we need to clarify whether "link title" means title attribute on link vs. title of linked web resource.
19:18:17 [sharper]
JA: could be attribute title of title of the resource
19:18:38 [sharper]
MH: needs to be the title of the link resource
19:19:14 [sharper]
GL: don't want to force the download of a large resource just to get the title from it
19:19:22 [Greg]
I wouldn't want the user agent to have to fetch a remote document which could be huge just to extract its title.
19:20:00 [Greg]
I think having the user agent present the title attribute of the link element is reasonable, whereas fetching the title of the linked web resource is now.
19:20:05 [Greg]
s/now/not/
19:21:30 [sharper]
MH: more explicit in stating that we are getting an authored or otherwise auto-created - fixed - title
19:21:56 [sharper]
JA: leave ambiguous to resolve in the intent
19:22:18 [Greg]
Could say "* title associated with the linked resource, if the title is available locally"
19:22:20 [sharper]
GL: Tiotle associated with the linked resource if it is available locally
19:22:32 [sharper]
s/Tioyle/Title
19:23:02 [sharper]
s/Tioyle/Tiotle
19:23:38 [Greg]
"title of the linked resource, if the title is available locally"
19:23:55 [Greg]
"title of the link target, if the title is available locally"
19:25:21 [Greg]
And delete bullet 3 "(link status (visited/selected/hover)" because those are covered by 1.3.1.
19:26:32 [sharper]
Topic: 1.11.2
19:26:53 [sharper]
JA: agreed if I make minor changes as per commetms in survey
19:29:06 [JAllan]
discussion of technology type (mime type, file extension)
19:30:41 [JAllan]
add to intent, don't want the server to download the entire resource to get the technology type, size, load time if available locally
19:31:12 [JAllan]
gl: if we find out that browsers can do this easily, remove last statement
19:31:32 [sharper]
rrsagent, make logs public
19:31:33 [sharper]
rrsagent, draft minutes
19:31:33 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/02/17-ua-minutes.html sharper
19:32:04 [Zakim]
-[IPcaller]
19:32:05 [mhakkinen]
mhakkinen has left #ua
19:32:14 [Zakim]
-sharper
19:32:19 [sharper]
zakim, please part
19:32:19 [Zakim]
leaving. As of this point the attendees were Greg, JAllan, Jeanne, kford, +1.617.325.aaaa, KimPatch, sharper, [IPcaller]
19:32:19 [Zakim]
Zakim has left #ua
19:32:25 [sharper]
rrsagent, draft minutes
19:32:25 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/02/17-ua-minutes.html sharper
19:32:37 [sharper]
rrsagent, please part
19:32:37 [RRSAgent]
I see 7 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2011/02/17-ua-actions.rdf :
19:32:37 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: Jeanne to use the following for intent for 1.4.1 Users need to be able to access a wide range of font sizes, styles, colors, and other attributes in order to find the combination that works best for their particular needs. For example, some users want to increase font size to make text more legible, while other users want to reduce the font size to decrease the need to scroll the... [1]
19:32:37 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2011/02/17-ua-irc#T18-38-34
19:32:37 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: Jeanne to change wording of 1.3 to 1.3 Provide highlighting for selection, active keyboard focus, and interactive elements. [2]
19:32:37 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2011/02/17-ua-irc#T18-43-31
19:32:37 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: Jeanne to change text of 1.3.1 to 1.3.1 (former 3.5.1) Highlighted Items: The user can have the following highlighted when recognized, so that each class is uniquely distinguished (Level A): [3]
19:32:37 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2011/02/17-ua-irc#T18-49-00
19:32:37 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: Jeanne to add ""Note: the definition of visited and unvisited links is up to the user agent. In some cases it might be links visited during the current session, or in other cases links visited in the browser's history until that is cleared." to Intent for 1.3.1 [4]
19:32:37 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2011/02/17-ua-irc#T18-50-31
19:32:37 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: Jeanne to change 1.3.2 to 1.3.2 (former 3.5.2) Highlighting Options: When highlighting classes specified by 1.3.1 Highlighted Items and 1.3.3 Highlighted Input Controls, the user can specify highlighting options that include at least (Level A): [5]
19:32:37 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2011/02/17-ua-irc#T18-58-01
19:32:37 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: Jeanne to add "CSS 2 specification http://www.w3.org/TR/CSS21/box.html#propdef-border-style" to resources for 1.3.2 [6]
19:32:37 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2011/02/17-ua-irc#T18-58-56
19:32:37 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: Jeanne to add 1.3.3 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2011JanMar/0045.html to working draft [7]
19:32:37 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2011/02/17-ua-irc#T19-02-06