21:00:48 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #webfonts
21:00:48 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2011/02/16-webfonts-irc
21:00:50 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs world
21:00:50 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #webfonts
21:00:52 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be 3668
21:00:52 <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see IA_Fonts()4:00PM scheduled to start now
21:00:53 <trackbot> Meeting: WebFonts Working Group Teleconference
21:00:53 <trackbot> Date: 16 February 2011
21:01:27 <erik> erik has joined #webfonts
21:01:32 <Vlad> zakim, who is here
21:01:32 <Zakim> Vlad, you need to end that query with '?'
21:01:42 <Vlad> zakim, who is here?
21:01:42 <Zakim> IA_Fonts()4:00PM has not yet started, Vlad
21:01:43 <Zakim> On IRC I see erik, Zakim, RRSAgent, Vlad, tal, jfkthame, mjs, ChrisL, trackbot
21:02:00 <ChrisL> zakim, who is herre?
21:02:00 <Zakim> I don't understand your question, ChrisL.
21:02:06 <ChrisL> zakim, who is here?
21:02:06 <Zakim> IA_Fonts()4:00PM has not yet started, ChrisL
21:02:07 <Zakim> On IRC I see erik, Zakim, RRSAgent, Vlad, tal, jfkthame, mjs, ChrisL, trackbot
21:02:12 <sergeym> sergeym has joined #webfonts
21:02:14 <ChrisL> zakim, oh yes it has
21:02:14 <Zakim> I don't understand 'oh yes it has', ChrisL
21:02:31 <jfkthame> mjs: did you get the dialing info you needed?
21:02:33 <ChrisL> zakim, oh yes it has?
21:02:33 <Zakim> I don't understand your question, ChrisL.
21:02:39 <mjs> yes
21:02:45 <ChrisL> zakim, who is your daddy?
21:02:46 <Zakim> Ralph is taking good care of me but you all are my family, ChrisL
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21:05:01 <ChrisL> Present: Erik, Joanthan, Christopher, Vlad, JDaggett, Behdad, Chris, John, Maciej, Sergey, Tal
21:05:19 <behdad> good afternoon.  /me is on the call, mostly to listen.
21:06:40 <ChrisL> ScribeNick: ChrisL
21:07:24 <ChrisL> Topic: Introductions
21:07:41 <ChrisL> Vlad: New member from Apple, Maciej
21:08:01 <ChrisL> mjs: Work on WebKit team at apple
21:09:14 <ChrisL> Topic: SOR and CORS and From-Origin
21:09:46 <ChrisL> Vlad: Not a last call response, but important so this call is dedicated to that
21:09:57 <ChrisL> ... charter was approved with mention of SOR
21:10:24 <TabAtkins> TabAtkins has joined #webfonts
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21:10:39 <ChrisL> ... could be done in WOFF spec or elsewhere but it needs to be adressed somewhere
21:10:42 <TabAtkins> Argh, sorry for being late, guys.  Had this on my calendar, but then got distracted.
21:10:55 <ChrisL> Present+ sylvaing
21:11:04 <ChrisL> Present+ Tab
21:11:20 <ChrisL> Vlad: please introduce your email, Maciej
21:11:50 <ChrisL> mjs: wrong to attach embedding restrictiosn to a format rather than a mechanism
21:12:06 <ChrisL> ... so should be in CSS3 Fonts not on WOFF
21:12:19 <ChrisL> sylvaing: IE9 and FF do it that way today
21:12:30 <ChrisL> mjs: so it should be in CSS3 Fonts
21:12:51 <ChrisL> mjs: Second one is more complex. Linking, embedding and reading
21:13:14 <ChrisL> ... linking like a element in HTML. No restrictions at all. Totally separate contexts
21:13:25 <ChrisL> ... important webarch property
21:13:44 <ChrisL> mjs: embedding uses  a resource as part of a rendering, so like html img
21:13:58 <ChrisL> ... cross site embedding allowed traditionally
21:14:11 <ChrisL> ... iframe, script, stylesheet links all work that way
21:14:23 <ChrisL> ... has been criticised but is a done deal now
21:14:58 <ChrisL> mjs: reading is making available the ful text or binary data to programs. Cant let sites read each others data
21:15:09 <ChrisL> ... protocols restrict cross site reading
21:15:27 <ChrisL> ... XHR uses CORS to open this as needed
21:15:43 <ChrisL> ... to make consistent, needs to embed same as other resources
21:15:54 <ChrisL> ... hotlinking is not an issue specific to fonts
21:16:36 <ChrisL> Vlad: to clarify, in the font world linking and embedding have quite different meanings
21:16:54 <ChrisL> ... embedding means physical incluson in the same resource
21:17:15 <ChrisL> ... licenses differentiate between embedding and linking in that sense
21:17:52 <ChrisL> mjs: agree there is a terminology collision
21:18:26 <ChrisL> ... thanks for clarifying
21:19:28 <ChrisL> Vlad: originally wa said SOR by default for fonts (WOFF in particular) for any resource linked by @font-face. Preferred way due to current licenses that explicitly allow font linking, but its not the only reason
21:20:04 <ChrisL> ... font vendors happy that this minimal level of protection exists. Not looking for cast iron guarantees
21:20:50 <ChrisL> mjs: SOR is not a defence against malwhere. Malware is typically hosted all on pne place, or adds headers to allow widespread linking
21:21:29 <ChrisL> sergeym: there was a perception that it helped with malware but now I agree with mjs
21:22:08 <ChrisL> Vlad: jdaggett spoke on this
21:22:24 <ChrisL> jdaggett: higher security concern than imabes but not that different
21:22:41 <ChrisL> sylvaing: like chrome cleaning of fonts for example due to security issues
21:23:00 <ChrisL> Vlad: ok so wa can disregard security isues with SOR
21:23:06 <ChrisL> s/wa/we/
21:23:46 <behdad> good point re security not being relevant to SOR discussion.  was going to point that out on the mailing list.
21:23:50 <ChrisL> john: SORis a benefot to commercial font vendors, want them used for the site they were licensed to
21:24:37 <ChrisL> ... published has invested money in the webfont license, value is relative to the percieved rarity of their use, for brand identity etc. so unlicensed resuse dilutes the value
21:25:31 <ChrisL> mjs: agree there can be lots of reasons t prevent hotlinking of fonts
21:26:01 <ChrisL> mjs: easier than referrer header checking
21:26:41 <ChrisL> John: preferential for the default behaviour that the content creator has to use as little as possible. reasonable steps to restrict hotlinking
21:26:56 <ChrisL> ... agree bar is somewhat low, but not zero
21:27:58 <ChrisL> ChrisL: aggregated content sites and ISP hosting often disallows server config
21:28:17 <ChrisL> sylvaing: that was my experience even between departments in corporations
21:28:29 <ChrisL> mjs: sceptical that this is a common case
21:28:57 <ChrisL> ... downloading and rehosting is much more likely for piracy than hotlinking
21:29:13 <ChrisL> sylvaing: goal is not to guard against piracy
21:29:35 <ChrisL> ... its not drm or encryption. that is not a goal
21:29:52 <ChrisL> mjs: preventing only hotlinking is not a strong defence
21:30:30 <ChrisL> sylvaing: its purely pragmatic. options should not be only free fonts or locked down font hosting
21:30:42 <ChrisL> ... font hosting with other content should be allowed
21:31:12 <ChrisL> ... simple solution that gives the value they like and that font vendors really like, is a benefit. its not a high protection at all
21:31:24 <ChrisL> ... benefits to users and font vendors is very high
21:31:41 <ChrisL> jdaggett: not sure why hotlinking on everything is a great default
21:31:47 <ChrisL> ... its not consistent
21:32:20 <ChrisL> mjs: don't weant fonts to be different from other resources
21:32:56 <ChrisL> sylvaing: popular ones like video often sniffed for referer header, precisely because cross domain embedding is in practice restricted
21:33:02 <ChrisL> ... that people do this is relevant
21:33:33 <ChrisL> mjs: advicate a way to block hotlinking for any resource
21:33:52 <ChrisL> sylvaing: yes but the default for fonts should be different . 
21:34:27 <ChrisL> John: what counts as 'everything else'. images are content, fonts are tiny programs for typesetting
21:35:03 <mjs> mjs has joined #webfonts
21:35:10 <ChrisL> mjs: images, html in iframe, script from script element, stylesheets wit link or @import, pdf with build in viewing
21:35:17 <ChrisL> ... and XHR
21:35:55 <ChrisL> s/XHR/XHR follows this three-way classification/
21:36:24 <ChrisL> sylvaing: if we make fonts inconsistent, you say its too costly. Who bears the cost
21:36:40 <ChrisL> mjs: user confusion and security analysis
21:36:50 <ChrisL> John: what is reading, here?
21:37:04 <ChrisL> mjs; programatic access to the actual bytes
21:37:22 <ChrisL> jdaggett: current rules already confusing
21:37:43 <ChrisL> ... distinction between read and embed is not common in peoples minds
21:37:52 <ChrisL> mjs: but it is used in the platform
21:38:42 <ChrisL> sylvaing: conent providers are always doing this for some images and for video etc
21:38:59 <ChrisL> ... license requires it for fonts but not for other content
21:39:11 <ChrisL> ... much more likely for fonts than for anything else
21:39:35 <ChrisL> mjs: images are low grade amateur content and freely distributable
21:40:07 <ChrisL> Vlad: fonts are tools, not content as such. they are tools to make content
21:40:44 <ChrisL> ... licensing high quality fonts at low cost ..... recent consensus was to make the default what is most neded, will let web typography flourish
21:40:56 <ChrisL> ... dont want to sacrifice that for an illusory consistency
21:41:16 <ChrisL> ... until recently web typography did not happen. dont want to stop it now
21:41:47 <ChrisL> sylvaing: suppose CSS3 fonts stated an assumed default for from-origin?
21:42:00 <ChrisL> mjs: sounds ok but only heard the proposal today
21:43:40 <ChrisL> Vlad: (scribe recap) if default was from-origin: same was the default for fonts, seems to be better recieved 
21:44:00 <ChrisL> mjs: yes its better. not my preferred solution but better than what we have now
21:44:39 <ChrisL> Vlad: so tab said he would implement this in Webkit. if we agree to this, would apple disable this ?
21:44:56 <ChrisL> mjs: tab is getting ahead of himself
21:45:10 <ChrisL> TabAtkins: its easy to do and have it on the table
21:45:19 <ChrisL> ... not asserting what Safari would do
21:45:36 <ChrisL> sylvaing: is this what Chromium will do?
21:45:47 <ChrisL> TabAtkins: expect it to go into Chrome
21:46:11 <ChrisL> sylvaing: CSS3 fonts is edited by jdaggett - what is your opinion?
21:46:24 <ChrisL> jdaggett: fine to go along with the consensus
21:46:38 <ChrisL> ... fro-origin is a good thing
21:47:05 <ChrisL> ... not convinced in hot-linkable by default being good. 
21:47:29 <ChrisL> ... makes spec coordination a bit more tricky
21:47:48 <ChrisL> John: so most people seem to think From-Origin is better?
21:48:17 <ChrisL> jdaggett: SOR by defsault is better, but having from-Origin is a good thing. here is some crossover. and some benefits outside fonts
21:48:38 <ChrisL> John: so a value of same is presumed for fonts
21:48:57 <ChrisL> mjs: embedding rules in a central place is not controvertial
21:49:18 <ChrisL> ... using From-Origin is preferred to CORS
21:49:36 <ChrisL> ... first two are ok, third one not clear which is the assumed font default
21:49:43 <ChrisL> jdaggett: agree with that assesment
21:50:10 <ChrisL> Vlad: so we have a majority that SOR or From-Origin same default, is the prevalent opinion
21:50:51 <ChrisL> cslye: we just want fonts to be restriced by default, as a mechanism we dont care what that is just the result as a foundry
21:51:16 <ChrisL> Vlad: So FO is a bette rproposal overall
21:51:55 <ChrisL> jdaggett: main point of controversy at the default
21:52:32 <ChrisL> sylvaing: that is the issue yes
21:53:36 <ChrisL> John: philosophical differnece between font creators and browser makers. New types can have different defaults. Consistency with something that was not a goodidea is not a benefit
21:54:16 <ChrisL> Vlad: agree with what John said. 
21:54:39 <ChrisL> ... consistency with wrong choices is a silly position
21:55:11 <ChrisL> John: is there a higher authority to discuss the best default for new content types/
21:55:27 <ChrisL> .... fonts are unique
21:56:21 <ChrisL> mjs: no venue could decide that with authority. in theory the tag can do that but they dont have expertise or recognition to make this stick or the authority
21:56:32 <ChrisL> ... unlikely to have new majort content types
21:57:15 <ChrisL> mjs: this could belong in WebApps but some charter issues
21:57:28 <ChrisL> John: is Hakon on the call
21:57:30 <ChrisL> (no)
21:57:45 <ChrisL> John: would have liked his opinion on this
21:58:02 <ChrisL> Vlad: so we seem to agree that FO is a better mechansm
21:58:25 <ChrisL> ... and that it belongs in @fontface for all font formats not just WOFF
21:58:46 <ChrisL> sylvaing: FF and IE do this except not with that header
21:59:03 <ChrisL> ... and ther eis no FO spec today
21:59:12 <ChrisL> .. dependency is an issue
22:00:29 <ChrisL> Vlad: from a pragmatic POV this is already the FF and IE behaviour and the success we have seen so far in the last year is remarkable so i dont want to make a decision that would reverse this progress. what e have today works well
22:01:01 <ChrisL> John: woff is largely embraced, as a package,and SOR is part of that. Wary of doing anything to undermine that support
22:01:31 <ChrisL> sylvaing: agree, but we still have that difference
22:02:17 <ChrisL> Vlad: hard to change for existing formats but we can d the right thing for new content
22:02:30 <ChrisL> Jo; lets have action items to move forward
22:02:39 <ChrisL> ... we need a draft spec for FO
22:02:46 <ChrisL> ... and who maintains it
22:03:02 <ChrisL> s/Jo;/John:/
22:03:29 <ChrisL> ... FO should apply to any resource referenced by @font-face, need sto be discussed by CSS WG
22:03:40 <ChrisL> Vlad: FO applies to any type of resource
22:04:15 <ChrisL> Vl: so this should go in CSS3 Fonts
22:04:30 <ChrisL> sylvaing: mjs please float that to Webit
22:04:34 <ChrisL> mjs: sure
22:04:40 <cslye> cslye has left #webfonts
22:04:48 <ChrisL> adjourned
22:04:55 <ChrisL> rrsagent, make minutes
22:04:55 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/02/16-webfonts-minutes.html ChrisL
22:05:17 <ChrisL> jdaggett: Will contact Hakon regarding FO
22:05:44 <ChrisL> trackbot, status
22:06:10 <ChrisL> action: jdaggett to contact Hakon regarding FO spec
22:06:11 <trackbot> Created ACTION-75 - Contact Hakon regarding FO spec [on John Daggett - due 2011-02-23].
22:06:27 <ChrisL> action: Maciej to ask apple about proposed FO solution
22:06:28 <trackbot> Created ACTION-76 - Ask apple about proposed FO solution [on Maciej Stachowiak - due 2011-02-23].
22:06:33 <ChrisL> rrsagent, make minutes
22:06:33 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/02/16-webfonts-minutes.html ChrisL
22:06:48 <ChrisL> Chair: Vlad
22:06:51 <ChrisL> rrsagent, make minutes
22:06:51 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/02/16-webfonts-minutes.html ChrisL
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