IRC log of dap on 2011-02-16

Timestamps are in UTC.

14:54:01 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #dap
14:54:01 [RRSAgent]
logging to http://www.w3.org/2011/02/16-dap-irc
14:54:03 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, make logs world
14:54:03 [Zakim]
Zakim has joined #dap
14:54:05 [trackbot]
Zakim, this will be DAP
14:54:05 [Zakim]
ok, trackbot; I see UW_DAP()10:00AM scheduled to start in 6 minutes
14:54:06 [trackbot]
Meeting: Device APIs and Policy Working Group Teleconference
14:54:06 [trackbot]
Date: 16 February 2011
14:54:39 [Zakim]
UW_DAP()10:00AM has now started
14:54:42 [fjh]
Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-device-apis/2011Feb/0095.html
14:54:46 [Zakim]
+??P2
14:54:56 [AnssiK]
zakim, ??P2 is me
14:54:56 [Zakim]
+AnssiK; got it
14:55:09 [AnssiK]
Present+ Anssi_Kostiainen
14:55:17 [fjh]
Regrets:+Dom
14:55:33 [darobin]
darobin has joined #dap
14:55:34 [fjh]
Chair: Robin_Berjon, Frederick_Hirsch
14:55:46 [fjh]
Present+ Robin_Berjon, Frederick_Hirsch
14:55:52 [fjh]
Topic: Administrative
14:56:50 [Zakim]
+??P7
14:56:53 [fjh]
zakim, ? is me
14:56:53 [Zakim]
+fjh; got it
14:58:18 [richt]
richt has joined #dap
14:58:54 [richt]
richt has joined #dap
14:59:41 [fjh]
zakim, who is here?
14:59:41 [Zakim]
On the phone I see AnssiK, fjh
14:59:42 [richt]
richt has joined #dap
14:59:43 [Zakim]
On IRC I see darobin, Zakim, RRSAgent, AnssiK, fjh, ilkka, ingmar, wmaslowski, dom, trackbot, lgombos
15:00:26 [hta]
hta has joined #dap
15:00:35 [Zakim]
+Laszlo_Gombos
15:01:06 [Dzung_Tran]
Dzung_Tran has joined #dap
15:01:12 [Dzung_Tran]
Present+ Dzung_Tran
15:01:15 [Zakim]
+??P14
15:01:20 [jgiraud]
jgiraud has joined #dap
15:01:30 [darobin]
Zakim, ??P14 is me
15:01:33 [richt]
richt has joined #dap
15:01:35 [jgiraud]
Present+ jerome_giraud
15:01:40 [Zakim]
+darobin; got it
15:01:45 [Suresh]
Suresh has joined #dap
15:01:52 [cmarc]
cmarc has joined #dap
15:02:00 [Zakim]
+ +1.404.978.aaaa
15:02:03 [Zakim]
+??P19
15:02:18 [AnssiK]
ScribeNick: AnssiK
15:02:20 [cmarc]
Present+ cecile_Marc
15:02:24 [lgombos]
Present+ Laszlo_Gombos
15:02:32 [hta]
Present+ Harald_Alvestrand
15:02:33 [AnssiK]
Scribe: Anssi_Kostiainen
15:02:40 [ktaklee]
ktaklee has joined #dap
15:02:48 [fjh]
zakim, who is here?
15:02:48 [Zakim]
On the phone I see AnssiK, fjh, Laszlo_Gombos, darobin, +1.404.978.aaaa, ??P19
15:02:50 [Zakim]
On IRC I see ktaklee, cmarc, Suresh, richt, jgiraud, Dzung_Tran, hta, darobin, Zakim, RRSAgent, AnssiK, fjh, ilkka, ingmar, wmaslowski, dom, trackbot, lgombos
15:03:28 [ktaklee]
Present+ Kyung-Tak_Lee
15:03:42 [Zakim]
+ +1.408.216.aabb
15:03:50 [Suresh]
Present+ Suresh_Chitturi
15:03:51 [darobin]
Zakim, ??P19 is probably Dzung_Tran
15:03:51 [Zakim]
+Dzung_Tran?; got it
15:03:55 [hta]
Harald might be P19
15:04:01 [Suresh]
zakim, aabb is Suresh
15:04:01 [Zakim]
+Suresh; got it
15:04:02 [Cathy]
Cathy has joined #dap
15:04:09 [darobin]
Zakim, Dzung_Tran is probably hta
15:04:09 [fjh]
zakim, ??P19 is harald
15:04:11 [Zakim]
+ +44.757.091.aacc
15:04:11 [Zakim]
+hta?; got it
15:04:13 [Zakim]
I already had ??P19 as hta?, fjh
15:04:21 [fjh]
zakim, who is here?
15:04:21 [Zakim]
On the phone I see AnssiK, fjh, Laszlo_Gombos, darobin, +1.404.978.aaaa, hta?, Suresh, +44.757.091.aacc
15:04:22 [richt]
zakim, aacc is me
15:04:23 [Cathy]
Present+ Cathy_Chan
15:04:23 [Zakim]
On IRC I see Cathy, ktaklee, cmarc, Suresh, richt, jgiraud, Dzung_Tran, hta, darobin, Zakim, RRSAgent, AnssiK, fjh, ilkka, ingmar, wmaslowski, dom, trackbot, lgombos
15:04:23 [darobin]
Zakim, aaaa is probably Dzung_Tran
15:04:26 [Zakim]
+richt; got it
15:04:26 [Zakim]
+Dzung_Tran?; got it
15:04:29 [richt]
Present+ Rich_Tibbett
15:04:36 [darobin]
Zakim, aabb is Suresh
15:04:36 [Zakim]
sorry, darobin, I do not recognize a party named 'aabb'
15:04:54 [Zakim]
-hta?
15:05:01 [fjh]
Seoul F2F and workshop planning
15:05:01 [fjh]
please complete registration page, http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/43696/seoul-f2f-reg/
15:05:02 [AnssiK]
TOPIC: Announcements, meeting planning, logistics
15:05:12 [Zakim]
+Cathy
15:05:24 [AnssiK]
fjh: everyone register to the f2f meeting
15:05:48 [fjh]
zakim, who is here?
15:05:49 [Zakim]
+Vincent_Mahe
15:05:51 [Zakim]
On the phone I see AnssiK, fjh, Laszlo_Gombos, darobin, Dzung_Tran?, Suresh, richt, Cathy, Vincent_Mahe
15:05:54 [Zakim]
On IRC I see Cathy, ktaklee, cmarc, Suresh, richt, jgiraud, Dzung_Tran, hta, darobin, Zakim, RRSAgent, AnssiK, fjh, ilkka, ingmar, wmaslowski, dom, trackbot, lgombos
15:06:00 [darobin]
Zakim, Vincent_Mahe is cmarc
15:06:00 [Zakim]
+cmarc; got it
15:06:18 [AnssiK]
... for planning purposes we need to know if you're attending or not
15:06:34 [AnssiK]
... there's also a workshop in between on Thu
15:07:12 [AnssiK]
... we'll need to start f2f agenda planning
15:07:18 [AnssiK]
... please send proposals on the list
15:07:25 [Zakim]
+??P6
15:07:31 [AnssiK]
TOPIC: Minutes approval
15:07:43 [fjh]
Approve 9 February minutes
15:07:43 [fjh]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-device-apis/2011Feb/att-0077/minutes-2011-02-09.html
15:07:54 [AnssiK]
RESOLUTION: Minutes from 9 February 2011 approved
15:08:01 [AnssiK]
TOPIC: Rechartering
15:08:07 [fjh]
http://www.w3.org/2010/11/DeviceAPICharter.html
15:08:15 [fjh]
Privacy, security deliverables?
15:08:30 [Zakim]
+ingmar
15:08:32 [AnssiK]
fjh: we have an issue for Charter draft, missing some explicit deliverables
15:08:52 [AnssiK]
darobin: the simplest way would be to send the proposed changed to the list
15:08:56 [fjh]
action: fjh to propose charter changes related to security and privacy deliverables
15:08:56 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-335 - Propose charter changes related to security and privacy deliverables [on Frederick Hirsch - due 2011-02-23].
15:09:05 [Suresh]
q+
15:09:09 [AnssiK]
q+
15:09:11 [fjh]
ack Suresh
15:10:04 [AnssiK]
suresh: is there a timeline for the Charter approval
15:10:05 [fjh]
ack AnsssiK
15:10:11 [fjh]
ack AnssiK
15:10:46 [AnssiK]
fjh: we should have a draft before f2f
15:10:56 [AnssiK]
... and approve at the f2f, but would need to check with Dom
15:11:51 [AnssiK]
darobin: to be clear, it's not this group that approved the Charter, it's Advisory Committee decision
15:12:04 [darobin]
Zakim, mute AnssiK
15:12:04 [Zakim]
AnssiK should now be muted
15:12:40 [AnssiK]
zakim, unmute me
15:12:40 [Zakim]
AnssiK should no longer be muted
15:12:55 [AnssiK]
q+ on Feature Permissions
15:13:01 [fjh]
ack AnssiK
15:13:01 [Zakim]
AnssiK, you wanted to comment on Feature Permissions
15:13:01 [darobin]
ack AnssiK
15:13:17 [AnssiK]
http://dev.w3.org/2006/webapi/WebNotifications/publish/FeaturePermissions.html
15:13:22 [AnssiK]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-web-notification/2010Nov/0001.html
15:13:59 [darobin]
+1
15:14:22 [AnssiK]
http://www.chromium.org/developers/design-documents/desktop-notifications/api-specification
15:15:41 [darobin]
you mean http://dev.w3.org/2009/dap/api-perms/ ?
15:15:49 [fjh]
Feature Permissions was moving forward but we need to consider other aspects of security/privacy as well, so probably more than one spec to move forward
15:15:59 [fjh]
+1 to progressing it
15:16:31 [lgombos]
lgombos: How the two http://dev.w3.org/2006/webapi/WebNotifications/publish/FeaturePermissions.html spec relates to http://www.w3.org/TR/api-perms/
15:16:42 [AnssiK]
requestPermission(navigator.contact)
15:16:58 [AnssiK]
requestPermission('navigator.contact')
15:17:22 [Zakim]
-??P6
15:17:38 [richt]
FWIW, that's not a great design. It's better to request permission on the actual object. It might not exist or all developers need to do: if(navigator.contact) { /* request permission*/ }
15:17:45 [fjh]
action: fjh to ask about sharing draft workshop agenda with WG
15:17:46 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-336 - Ask about sharing draft workshop agenda with WG [on Frederick Hirsch - due 2011-02-23].
15:18:02 [AnssiK]
AnssiK: i.e. pass either a reference, or a stringification of it
15:18:20 [AnssiK]
laszlo: at the moment both specs assume strings
15:18:38 [AnssiK]
... reason for that is needs to be re-usable in the P&C
15:18:43 [darobin]
[so, richt, Contacts implements RequestPermission?]
15:18:50 [Zakim]
+??P6
15:19:05 [richt]
darobin, possibly. that might work...maybe...perhaps.
15:19:12 [darobin]
[if (navigator.contacts) navigator.contacts.requestPermission(success, error)?]
15:19:12 [richt]
:)
15:19:56 [AnssiK]
laszlo: we'll need to figure out the dependency together with the WebNot WG
15:19:57 [richt]
just do navigator.contacts.find(). maybe permissions don't need to be codified and standardized at all?
15:21:13 [AnssiK]
Laszlo: we could define a FeatureRequest interface, and the API implements that as per richt proposal
15:21:17 [ktaklee]
ktaklee has joined #dap
15:22:35 [AnssiK]
window.webkitNotifications.checkPermission
15:23:33 [richt]
q+
15:24:21 [fjh]
laszlo suggests http://dev.w3.org/2006/webapi/WebNotifications/publish/FeaturePermissions.html could be approach for all APIs in DAP
15:24:39 [AnssiK]
add to the Charter: "an API for web pages to request permission to use privileged user agent features"
15:24:58 [fjh]
+1
15:25:15 [fjh]
ack richt
15:25:32 [darobin]
robin: not all APIs, but perhaps for some
15:25:49 [AnssiK]
richt: I'm still unsure about this whole are, if you want to do something you just do it
15:26:14 [AnssiK]
... not sure standardizing this is good, quite contraversion still
15:26:25 [AnssiK]
... expect the Web Notifications stuff change a bit still
15:26:55 [darobin]
s/contraversion/controversial/
15:27:28 [AnssiK]
laszlo: one of the design guidelines behind the current Feat Perms: decouple the feature request from the API invocation
15:28:22 [AnssiK]
darobin: this is decoupled from the policy*
15:29:06 [AnssiK]
... I'm not sure if this applies to lots of other specs
15:29:19 [AnssiK]
... e.g. not very well to Contacts
15:29:40 [AnssiK]
... we should spec out what Web Not people need, at the minimum
15:30:06 [AnssiK]
richt: requesting all permissions up-front, interesting scenario
15:30:08 [Suresh]
q+
15:30:34 [fjh]
ack suresh
15:31:44 [AnssiK]
Chrome > Wrench > Preferences > Under the Hood > Content Settings... > Notifications
15:33:04 [fjh]
q+
15:33:17 [darobin]
ack fjh
15:33:42 [AnssiK]
fjh: we should agree that we'll probably need something in the Charter for Feature Permissions
15:35:23 [fjh]
q?
15:35:33 [AnssiK]
richt: Chrome has the same config UI for Location (Geolocation API)
15:35:40 [AnssiK]
... would like to document the diff to Notifications
15:36:42 [richt]
my question is what does a permissioning interface give us on top of how geolocation (in Chrome Preferences) currently works? If we have solid use cases beyond those already implemented for geolocation then we're motoring :)
15:36:49 [AnssiK]
laszlo: I'm taking an action on this and catch up with John Gregg
15:36:58 [darobin]
ACTION: Laszlo to find out about current status of permissions/notifications with John Gregg
15:36:58 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-337 - Find out about current status of permissions/notifications with John Gregg [on Laszlo Gombos - due 2011-02-23].
15:37:34 [AnssiK]
darobin: multiple permissions UC, support on that?
15:37:41 [AnssiK]
laszlo: +1
15:38:01 [darobin]
ACTION: Laszlo to look into multiple permission/installable designs for APIs
15:38:01 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-338 - Look into multiple permission/installable designs for APIs [on Laszlo Gombos - due 2011-02-23].
15:38:44 [AnssiK]
laszlo: another related action, go though the existing DAP APIs and see if Feat Perms works with them
15:38:56 [AnssiK]
... I'm happy taking that action as well
15:39:16 [darobin]
ACTION: Laszlo to go through existing DAP APIs to see if there are use cases there for Feat Perms (or if the existing approaches work better)
15:39:16 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-339 - Go through existing DAP APIs to see if there are use cases there for Feat Perms (or if the existing approaches work better) [on Laszlo Gombos - due 2011-02-23].
15:39:18 [AnssiK]
richt: can we also look into the use cases, as described above?
15:39:36 [AnssiK]
darobin: any takers for use cases action?
15:39:52 [richt]
strong solid use cases will sell the proposal if it adds value on top of what we already have without permisioning interfaces.
15:39:58 [AnssiK]
... perhaps an issue for UCs is ok?
15:40:15 [darobin]
ISSUE: We need solid use cases for Feat Perms if it's going to fly
15:40:15 [trackbot]
Created ISSUE-109 - We need solid use cases for Feat Perms if it's going to fly ; please complete additional details at http://www.w3.org/2009/dap/track/issues/109/edit .
15:40:27 [fjh]
q+
15:40:40 [fjh]
q-
15:41:07 [richt]
q+
15:41:20 [AnssiK]
fjh: other than cdt folks involved with privacy?
15:41:43 [fjh]
need to move privacy work forward
15:41:56 [AnssiK]
darobin: privacy by design, relationship of rulesets with DoNotTrack proposal
15:42:16 [darobin]
ACTION: Frederick to look at how we're doing privacy by design
15:42:16 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-340 - Look at how we're doing privacy by design [on Frederick Hirsch - due 2011-02-23].
15:42:45 [AnssiK]
richt: I agree with darobin, privacy should be baked into the API design
15:43:17 [AnssiK]
... proposing privacy papers should end up being W3C Notes
15:43:27 [darobin]
zakim, mute AnssiK
15:43:27 [Zakim]
AnssiK should now be muted
15:43:55 [AnssiK]
fjh: DNT, secondary use, retention require some thought
15:44:22 [AnssiK]
... might apply across all the APIs
15:44:48 [AnssiK]
richt: all the APIs should consider all those points individually
15:45:34 [AnssiK]
fjh: understanding privacy by design is important, there may be privacy deliverables
15:46:16 [AnssiK]
richt: we may want to put W3C Note deliverables into "Other Deliverables" section in the Chartr
15:46:22 [AnssiK]
s/Chartr/Charter/
15:47:01 [AnssiK]
zakim, unmute me
15:47:01 [Zakim]
AnssiK should no longer be muted
15:47:43 [fjh]
zakim, who is here?
15:47:43 [Zakim]
On the phone I see AnssiK, fjh, Laszlo_Gombos, darobin, Dzung_Tran?, Suresh, richt, Cathy, cmarc, ingmar, ??P6
15:47:45 [Zakim]
On IRC I see ktaklee, Cathy, cmarc, Suresh, richt, jgiraud, hta, darobin, Zakim, RRSAgent, AnssiK, fjh, ilkka, ingmar, wmaslowski, dom, trackbot, lgombos
15:47:59 [fjh]
s/DNT/do not track/
15:48:06 [AnssiK]
darobin: Brian's not on the call, so perhaps not good idea to discuss SysInfo
15:48:09 [fjh]
rrsagent, generate minutes
15:48:09 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/02/16-dap-minutes.html fjh
15:48:15 [darobin]
s/Brian/Bryan/
15:50:21 [fjh]
rrsagent, generate minutes
15:50:21 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/02/16-dap-minutes.html fjh
15:50:51 [Zakim]
-darobin
15:50:53 [Zakim]
-Dzung_Tran?
15:50:55 [Zakim]
-AnssiK
15:50:56 [Zakim]
-Suresh
15:50:56 [Zakim]
-cmarc
15:50:58 [Zakim]
-richt
15:50:59 [Zakim]
-ingmar
15:50:59 [Zakim]
-Laszlo_Gombos
15:51:00 [Zakim]
-fjh
15:51:00 [Zakim]
-Cathy
15:51:01 [Zakim]
-??P6
15:51:03 [Zakim]
UW_DAP()10:00AM has ended
15:51:06 [Zakim]
Attendees were AnssiK, fjh, Laszlo_Gombos, darobin, +1.404.978.aaaa, +1.408.216.aabb, Dzung_Tran?, Suresh, +44.757.091.aacc, hta?, richt, Cathy, cmarc, ingmar
15:52:04 [darobin]
AnssiK: 8, Claes and Bryan: 6, then a bunch of 5s
15:52:55 [darobin]
bunch of 5s: Rich, Suresh, Marco, and John
15:54:53 [darobin]
out of 78 current participants, only 21 have ever scribed
15:55:08 [richt]
yes, we need people to step out of the shadows perhaps
15:55:40 [darobin]
I don't mind there being people in the shadows, that's the case in all WGs
15:56:10 [darobin]
I do mind the absence of some specific people who should be here, and the fact that we don't have enough editing manpower
16:45:45 [fjh]
Regrets- +Dom
16:45:49 [fjh]
Regrets+ Dom
16:46:04 [fjh]
s/Harald might be P19//
16:46:10 [Dzung_Tran]
Dzung_Tran has joined #dap
16:46:37 [fjh]
rrsagent, generate minutes
16:46:37 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/02/16-dap-minutes.html fjh
16:47:38 [fjh_]
fjh_ has joined #dap
16:48:02 [hta]
hta has left #dap
18:12:29 [Zakim]
Zakim has left #dap