14:54:01 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #dap
14:54:01 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2011/02/16-dap-irc
14:54:03 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs world
14:54:03 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #dap
14:54:05 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be DAP
14:54:05 <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see UW_DAP()10:00AM scheduled to start in 6 minutes
14:54:06 <trackbot> Meeting: Device APIs and Policy Working Group Teleconference
14:54:06 <trackbot> Date: 16 February 2011
14:54:39 <Zakim> UW_DAP()10:00AM has now started
14:54:42 <fjh> Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-device-apis/2011Feb/0095.html
14:54:46 <Zakim> +??P2
14:54:56 <AnssiK> zakim, ??P2 is me
14:54:56 <Zakim> +AnssiK; got it
14:55:09 <AnssiK> Present+ Anssi_Kostiainen
14:55:17 <fjh> Regrets:+Dom
14:55:33 <darobin> darobin has joined #dap
14:55:34 <fjh> Chair: Robin_Berjon, Frederick_Hirsch
14:55:46 <fjh> Present+  Robin_Berjon, Frederick_Hirsch
14:55:52 <fjh> Topic: Administrative
14:56:50 <Zakim> +??P7
14:56:53 <fjh> zakim, ? is me
14:56:53 <Zakim> +fjh; got it
14:58:18 <richt> richt has joined #dap
14:58:54 <richt> richt has joined #dap
14:59:41 <fjh> zakim, who is here?
14:59:41 <Zakim> On the phone I see AnssiK, fjh
14:59:42 <richt> richt has joined #dap
14:59:43 <Zakim> On IRC I see darobin, Zakim, RRSAgent, AnssiK, fjh, ilkka, ingmar, wmaslowski, dom, trackbot, lgombos
15:00:26 <hta> hta has joined #dap
15:00:35 <Zakim> +Laszlo_Gombos
15:01:06 <Dzung_Tran> Dzung_Tran has joined #dap
15:01:12 <Dzung_Tran> Present+ Dzung_Tran
15:01:15 <Zakim> +??P14
15:01:20 <jgiraud> jgiraud has joined #dap
15:01:30 <darobin> Zakim, ??P14 is me
15:01:33 <richt> richt has joined #dap
15:01:35 <jgiraud> Present+ jerome_giraud
15:01:40 <Zakim> +darobin; got it
15:01:45 <Suresh> Suresh has joined #dap
15:01:52 <cmarc> cmarc has joined #dap
15:02:00 <Zakim> + +1.404.978.aaaa
15:02:03 <Zakim> +??P19
15:02:18 <AnssiK> ScribeNick: AnssiK
15:02:20 <cmarc> Present+ cecile_Marc
15:02:24 <lgombos> Present+ Laszlo_Gombos
15:02:32 <hta> Present+ Harald_Alvestrand
15:02:33 <AnssiK> Scribe: Anssi_Kostiainen
15:02:40 <ktaklee> ktaklee has joined #dap
15:02:48 <fjh> zakim, who is here?
15:02:48 <Zakim> On the phone I see AnssiK, fjh, Laszlo_Gombos, darobin, +1.404.978.aaaa, ??P19
15:02:50 <Zakim> On IRC I see ktaklee, cmarc, Suresh, richt, jgiraud, Dzung_Tran, hta, darobin, Zakim, RRSAgent, AnssiK, fjh, ilkka, ingmar, wmaslowski, dom, trackbot, lgombos
15:03:28 <ktaklee> Present+ Kyung-Tak_Lee
15:03:42 <Zakim> + +1.408.216.aabb
15:03:50 <Suresh> Present+ Suresh_Chitturi
15:03:51 <darobin> Zakim, ??P19 is probably Dzung_Tran
15:03:51 <Zakim> +Dzung_Tran?; got it
15:03:55 <hta> Harald might be P19
15:04:01 <Suresh> zakim, aabb is Suresh
15:04:01 <Zakim> +Suresh; got it
15:04:02 <Cathy> Cathy has joined #dap
15:04:09 <darobin> Zakim, Dzung_Tran is probably hta
15:04:09 <fjh>  zakim, ??P19 is harald
15:04:11 <Zakim> + +44.757.091.aacc
15:04:11 <Zakim> +hta?; got it
15:04:13 <Zakim> I already had ??P19 as hta?, fjh
15:04:21 <fjh> zakim, who is here?
15:04:21 <Zakim> On the phone I see AnssiK, fjh, Laszlo_Gombos, darobin, +1.404.978.aaaa, hta?, Suresh, +44.757.091.aacc
15:04:22 <richt> zakim, aacc is me
15:04:23 <Cathy> Present+ Cathy_Chan
15:04:23 <Zakim> On IRC I see Cathy, ktaklee, cmarc, Suresh, richt, jgiraud, Dzung_Tran, hta, darobin, Zakim, RRSAgent, AnssiK, fjh, ilkka, ingmar, wmaslowski, dom, trackbot, lgombos
15:04:23 <darobin> Zakim, aaaa is probably Dzung_Tran 
15:04:26 <Zakim> +richt; got it
15:04:26 <Zakim> +Dzung_Tran?; got it
15:04:29 <richt> Present+ Rich_Tibbett
15:04:36 <darobin> Zakim, aabb is Suresh 
15:04:36 <Zakim> sorry, darobin, I do not recognize a party named 'aabb'
15:04:54 <Zakim> -hta?
15:05:01 <fjh> Seoul F2F and  workshop planning 
15:05:01 <fjh> please complete registration page, http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/43696/seoul-f2f-reg/
15:05:02 <AnssiK> TOPIC: Announcements, meeting planning, logistics
15:05:12 <Zakim> +Cathy
15:05:24 <AnssiK> fjh: everyone register to the f2f meeting
15:05:48 <fjh> zakim, who is here?
15:05:49 <Zakim> +Vincent_Mahe
15:05:51 <Zakim> On the phone I see AnssiK, fjh, Laszlo_Gombos, darobin, Dzung_Tran?, Suresh, richt, Cathy, Vincent_Mahe
15:05:54 <Zakim> On IRC I see Cathy, ktaklee, cmarc, Suresh, richt, jgiraud, Dzung_Tran, hta, darobin, Zakim, RRSAgent, AnssiK, fjh, ilkka, ingmar, wmaslowski, dom, trackbot, lgombos
15:06:00 <darobin> Zakim, Vincent_Mahe is cmarc 
15:06:00 <Zakim> +cmarc; got it
15:06:18 <AnssiK> ... for planning purposes we need to know if you're attending or not
15:06:34 <AnssiK> ... there's also a workshop in between on Thu
15:07:12 <AnssiK> ... we'll need to start f2f agenda planning
15:07:18 <AnssiK> ... please send proposals on the list
15:07:25 <Zakim> +??P6
15:07:31 <AnssiK> TOPIC: Minutes approval
15:07:43 <fjh> Approve 9 February minutes
15:07:43 <fjh> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-device-apis/2011Feb/att-0077/minutes-2011-02-09.html
15:07:54 <AnssiK> RESOLUTION: Minutes from 9 February 2011 approved
15:08:01 <AnssiK> TOPIC: Rechartering
15:08:07 <fjh> http://www.w3.org/2010/11/DeviceAPICharter.html
15:08:15 <fjh> Privacy, security deliverables?
15:08:30 <Zakim> +ingmar
15:08:32 <AnssiK> fjh: we have an issue for Charter draft, missing some explicit deliverables
15:08:52 <AnssiK> darobin: the simplest way would be to send the proposed changed to the list
15:08:56 <fjh> action: fjh to propose charter changes related to security and privacy deliverables
15:08:56 <trackbot> Created ACTION-335 - Propose charter changes related to security and privacy deliverables [on Frederick Hirsch - due 2011-02-23].
15:09:05 <Suresh> q+
15:09:09 <AnssiK> q+
15:09:11 <fjh> ack Suresh
15:10:04 <AnssiK> suresh: is there a timeline for the Charter approval
15:10:05 <fjh> ack AnsssiK
15:10:11 <fjh> ack AnssiK
15:10:46 <AnssiK> fjh: we should have a draft before f2f
15:10:56 <AnssiK> ... and approve at the f2f, but would need to check with Dom
15:11:51 <AnssiK> darobin: to be clear, it's not this group that approved the Charter, it's Advisory Committee decision
15:12:04 <darobin> Zakim, mute AnssiK 
15:12:04 <Zakim> AnssiK should now be muted
15:12:40 <AnssiK> zakim, unmute me
15:12:40 <Zakim> AnssiK should no longer be muted
15:12:55 <AnssiK> q+ on Feature Permissions
15:13:01 <fjh> ack AnssiK
15:13:01 <Zakim> AnssiK, you wanted to comment on Feature Permissions
15:13:01 <darobin> ack AnssiK 
15:13:17 <AnssiK> http://dev.w3.org/2006/webapi/WebNotifications/publish/FeaturePermissions.html
15:13:22 <AnssiK> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-web-notification/2010Nov/0001.html
15:13:59 <darobin> +1
15:14:22 <AnssiK> http://www.chromium.org/developers/design-documents/desktop-notifications/api-specification
15:15:41 <darobin> you mean http://dev.w3.org/2009/dap/api-perms/ ?
15:15:49 <fjh> Feature Permissions was moving forward but we need to consider other aspects of security/privacy as well, so probably more than one spec to move forward
15:15:59 <fjh> +1 to progressing it 
15:16:31 <lgombos> lgombos: How the two http://dev.w3.org/2006/webapi/WebNotifications/publish/FeaturePermissions.html spec relates to http://www.w3.org/TR/api-perms/
15:16:42 <AnssiK>  requestPermission(navigator.contact)
15:16:58 <AnssiK>  requestPermission('navigator.contact')
15:17:22 <Zakim> -??P6
15:17:38 <richt> FWIW, that's not a great design. It's better to request permission on the actual object. It might not exist or all developers need to do: if(navigator.contact) { /* request permission*/ }
15:17:45 <fjh> action: fjh to ask about sharing draft workshop agenda with WG
15:17:46 <trackbot> Created ACTION-336 - Ask about sharing draft workshop agenda with WG [on Frederick Hirsch - due 2011-02-23].
15:18:02 <AnssiK> AnssiK: i.e. pass either a reference, or a stringification of it
15:18:20 <AnssiK> laszlo: at the moment both specs assume strings
15:18:38 <AnssiK> ... reason for that is needs to be re-usable in the P&C
15:18:43 <darobin> [so, richt, Contacts implements RequestPermission?]
15:18:50 <Zakim> +??P6
15:19:05 <richt> darobin, possibly. that might work...maybe...perhaps.
15:19:12 <darobin> [if (navigator.contacts) navigator.contacts.requestPermission(success, error)?]
15:19:12 <richt> :)
15:19:56 <AnssiK> laszlo: we'll need to figure out the dependency together with the WebNot WG
15:19:57 <richt> just do navigator.contacts.find(). maybe permissions don't need to be codified and standardized at all?
15:21:13 <AnssiK> Laszlo: we could define a FeatureRequest interface, and the API implements that as per richt proposal
15:21:17 <ktaklee> ktaklee has joined #dap
15:22:35 <AnssiK> window.webkitNotifications.checkPermission
15:23:33 <richt> q+
15:24:21 <fjh> laszlo suggests http://dev.w3.org/2006/webapi/WebNotifications/publish/FeaturePermissions.html could be approach for all APIs in DAP
15:24:39 <AnssiK> add to the Charter: "an API for web pages to request permission to use privileged user agent features"
15:24:58 <fjh> +1
15:25:15 <fjh> ack richt
15:25:32 <darobin> robin: not all APIs, but perhaps for some
15:25:49 <AnssiK> richt: I'm still unsure about this whole are, if you want to do something you just do it
15:26:14 <AnssiK> ... not sure standardizing this is good, quite contraversion still
15:26:25 <AnssiK> ... expect the Web Notifications stuff change a bit still
15:26:55 <darobin> s/contraversion/controversial/
15:27:28 <AnssiK> laszlo: one of the design guidelines behind the current Feat Perms: decouple the feature request from the API invocation
15:28:22 <AnssiK> darobin: this is decoupled from the policy*
15:29:06 <AnssiK> ... I'm not sure if this applies to lots of other specs
15:29:19 <AnssiK> ... e.g. not very well to Contacts
15:29:40 <AnssiK> ... we should spec out what Web Not people need, at the minimum
15:30:06 <AnssiK> richt: requesting all permissions up-front, interesting scenario
15:30:08 <Suresh> q+
15:30:34 <fjh> ack suresh
15:31:44 <AnssiK> Chrome > Wrench > Preferences > Under the Hood > Content Settings... > Notifications
15:33:04 <fjh> q+
15:33:17 <darobin> ack fjh 
15:33:42 <AnssiK> fjh: we should agree that we'll probably need something in the Charter for Feature Permissions
15:35:23 <fjh> q?
15:35:33 <AnssiK> richt: Chrome has the same config UI for Location (Geolocation API)
15:35:40 <AnssiK> ... would like to document the diff to Notifications
15:36:42 <richt> my question is what does a permissioning interface give us on top of how geolocation (in Chrome Preferences) currently works? If we have solid use cases beyond those already implemented for geolocation then we're motoring :)
15:36:49 <AnssiK> laszlo: I'm taking an action on this and catch up with John Gregg
15:36:58 <darobin> ACTION: Laszlo to find out about current status of permissions/notifications with John Gregg
15:36:58 <trackbot> Created ACTION-337 - Find out about current status of permissions/notifications with John Gregg [on Laszlo Gombos - due 2011-02-23].
15:37:34 <AnssiK> darobin: multiple permissions UC, support on that?
15:37:41 <AnssiK> laszlo: +1
15:38:01 <darobin> ACTION: Laszlo to look into multiple permission/installable designs for APIs
15:38:01 <trackbot> Created ACTION-338 - Look into multiple permission/installable designs for APIs [on Laszlo Gombos - due 2011-02-23].
15:38:44 <AnssiK> laszlo: another related action, go though the existing DAP APIs and see if Feat Perms works with them
15:38:56 <AnssiK> ... I'm happy taking that action as well
15:39:16 <darobin> ACTION: Laszlo to go through existing DAP APIs to see if there are use cases there for Feat Perms (or if the existing approaches work better)
15:39:16 <trackbot> Created ACTION-339 - Go through existing DAP APIs to see if there are use cases there for Feat Perms (or if the existing approaches work better) [on Laszlo Gombos - due 2011-02-23].
15:39:18 <AnssiK> richt: can we also look into the use cases, as described above?
15:39:36 <AnssiK> darobin: any takers for use cases action?
15:39:52 <richt>  strong solid use cases will sell the proposal if it adds value on top of what we already have without permisioning interfaces.
15:39:58 <AnssiK> ... perhaps an issue for UCs is ok?
15:40:15 <darobin> ISSUE: We need solid use cases for Feat Perms if it's going to fly
15:40:15 <trackbot> Created ISSUE-109 - We need solid use cases for Feat Perms if it's going to fly ; please complete additional details at http://www.w3.org/2009/dap/track/issues/109/edit .
15:40:27 <fjh> q+
15:40:40 <fjh> q-
15:41:07 <richt> q+
15:41:20 <AnssiK> fjh: other than cdt folks involved with privacy?
15:41:43 <fjh> need to move privacy work forward
15:41:56 <AnssiK> darobin: privacy by design, relationship of rulesets with DoNotTrack proposal
15:42:16 <darobin> ACTION: Frederick to look at how we're doing privacy by design
15:42:16 <trackbot> Created ACTION-340 - Look at how we're doing privacy by design [on Frederick Hirsch - due 2011-02-23].
15:42:45 <AnssiK> richt: I agree with darobin, privacy should be baked into the API design
15:43:17 <AnssiK> ... proposing privacy papers should end up being W3C Notes
15:43:27 <darobin> zakim, mute AnssiK 
15:43:27 <Zakim> AnssiK should now be muted
15:43:55 <AnssiK> fjh: DNT, secondary use, retention require some thought
15:44:22 <AnssiK> ... might apply across all the APIs
15:44:48 <AnssiK> richt: all the APIs should consider all those points individually
15:45:34 <AnssiK> fjh: understanding privacy by design is important, there may be privacy deliverables
15:46:16 <AnssiK> richt: we may want to put W3C Note deliverables into "Other Deliverables" section in the Chartr
15:46:22 <AnssiK> s/Chartr/Charter/
15:47:01 <AnssiK> zakim, unmute me
15:47:01 <Zakim> AnssiK should no longer be muted
15:47:43 <fjh> zakim, who is here?
15:47:43 <Zakim> On the phone I see AnssiK, fjh, Laszlo_Gombos, darobin, Dzung_Tran?, Suresh, richt, Cathy, cmarc, ingmar, ??P6
15:47:45 <Zakim> On IRC I see ktaklee, Cathy, cmarc, Suresh, richt, jgiraud, hta, darobin, Zakim, RRSAgent, AnssiK, fjh, ilkka, ingmar, wmaslowski, dom, trackbot, lgombos
15:47:59 <fjh> s/DNT/do not track/
15:48:06 <AnssiK> darobin: Brian's not on the call, so perhaps not good idea to discuss SysInfo
15:48:09 <fjh> rrsagent, generate minutes
15:48:09 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/02/16-dap-minutes.html fjh
15:48:15 <darobin> s/Brian/Bryan/
15:50:21 <fjh> rrsagent, generate minutes
15:50:21 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/02/16-dap-minutes.html fjh
15:50:51 <Zakim> -darobin
15:50:53 <Zakim> -Dzung_Tran?
15:50:55 <Zakim> -AnssiK
15:50:56 <Zakim> -Suresh
15:50:56 <Zakim> -cmarc
15:50:58 <Zakim> -richt
15:50:59 <Zakim> -ingmar
15:50:59 <Zakim> -Laszlo_Gombos
15:51:00 <Zakim> -fjh
15:51:00 <Zakim> -Cathy
15:51:01 <Zakim> -??P6
15:51:03 <Zakim> UW_DAP()10:00AM has ended
15:51:06 <Zakim> Attendees were AnssiK, fjh, Laszlo_Gombos, darobin, +1.404.978.aaaa, +1.408.216.aabb, Dzung_Tran?, Suresh, +44.757.091.aacc, hta?, richt, Cathy, cmarc, ingmar
15:52:04 <darobin> AnssiK: 8, Claes and Bryan: 6, then a bunch of 5s
15:52:55 <darobin> bunch of 5s: Rich, Suresh, Marco, and John
15:54:53 <darobin> out of 78 current participants, only 21 have ever scribed
15:55:08 <richt> yes, we need people to step out of the shadows perhaps
15:55:40 <darobin> I don't mind there being people in the shadows, that's the case in all WGs
15:56:10 <darobin> I do mind the absence of some specific people who should be here, and the fact that we don't have enough editing manpower
16:45:45 <fjh> Regrets- +Dom
16:45:49 <fjh> Regrets+ Dom
16:46:04 <fjh> s/Harald might be P19//
16:46:10 <Dzung_Tran> Dzung_Tran has joined #dap
16:46:37 <fjh> rrsagent, generate minutes
16:46:37 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/02/16-dap-minutes.html fjh
16:47:38 <fjh_> fjh_ has joined #dap
16:48:02 <hta> hta has left #dap
18:12:29 <Zakim> Zakim has left #dap