20:00:20 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #html-a11y
20:00:20 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2011/02/14-html-a11y-irc
20:00:22 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs world
20:00:22 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #html-a11y
20:00:24 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be 2119
20:00:24 <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see WAI_PFWG(A11Y)3:00PM scheduled to start now
20:00:25 <trackbot> Meeting: HTML Accessibility Task Force Teleconference
20:00:25 <trackbot> Date: 14 February 2011
20:00:45 <Zakim> WAI_PFWG(A11Y)3:00PM has now started
20:00:52 <Zakim> + +1.949.637.aaaa
20:00:59 <Zakim> +Rich
20:01:48 <richardschwerdtfe> Hi David, can you join the canvas accessibility call?
20:07:48 <richardschwerdtfe> Topic: Revisions to Caret/Selection Pos
20:07:49 <richardschwerdtfe> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-canvas-api/2011JanMar/0066.html
20:08:30 <richardschwerdtfe> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-canvas-api/2011JanMar/att-0060/HTML_Canvas_2DContext20110123.html
20:10:46 <Downchuck> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-canvas-api/2011JanMar/0067.html
20:10:53 <Downchuck> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-canvas-api/2011JanMar/att-0067/HTML_Canvas_2DContext20110214.html
20:11:07 <richardschwerdtfe> Chuck: I made some editorial changes. Otherwise I am happy with it
20:11:31 <richardschwerdtfe> Rich: At this point we have enough for a proposal. 
20:12:30 <Downchuck> I haven't seen much positive feedback re: issue 131
20:13:31 <richardschwerdtfe> Topic: Should we move caret/selection pos to a higher level so that SVG can use it.
20:13:48 <Downchuck> I suspect role="caret" will be used in SVG when ARIA examines HTML5
20:14:11 <richardschwerdtfe> Rich: I would like to not drop what we have until we are told to move it to a higher level to supprt SVG
20:14:41 <richardschwerdtfe> Chuck: I agree. I want to see that people agree it is a valid use case.
20:14:54 <richardschwerdtfe> Chuck: no issues with blink rate
20:15:25 <Downchuck> Apple has reasonably demonstrated several a11y visualizations; I'm just trying to recreate them
20:16:44 <richardschwerdtfe> Chuck: I get shot down that any use case for a caret is invalid. The responses I am getting are absurd.
20:16:50 <richardschwerdtfe> Rich: I agree.
20:17:26 <richardschwerdtfe> Chuck: It is the programming part of it. I brought up the term scene graph. 
20:17:36 <richardschwerdtfe> Chuck: they are used for 3D themes, etc. 
20:17:37 <frankolivier> frankolivier has joined #html-a11y
20:17:48 <richardschwerdtfe> welcome Frank
20:17:54 <frankolivier> (Not able to phone in, my apologies)
20:17:58 <frankolivier> Hello all
20:18:41 <Downchuck> Hi frank
20:18:50 <richardschwerdtfe> Frank, can you call in?
20:18:59 <richardschwerdtfe> k
20:19:05 <Downchuck> Frank: Is there any position on caret tracking itself?
20:19:21 <richardschwerdtfe> Rich: putting rich text editing aside
20:19:23 <Downchuck> This is in relation to telling the AT where the caret is on the screen, for the sake of the magnifier and visualization aides
20:19:32 <richardschwerdtfe> Rich: Just being able to track the caret
20:19:53 <richardschwerdtfe> Please see the link: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-canvas-api/2011JanMar/att-0067/HTML_Canvas_2DContext20110214.html
20:20:07 <richardschwerdtfe> Rich: the programming is trivial
20:20:41 <richardschwerdtfe> Rich to Frank: We just want to know if you accept the change to the spec. I will write a change  proposal update this week.
20:21:02 <frankolivier> We support the concept of telling the UA where (canvas) UI elements are on the screen
20:21:22 <richardschwerdtfe> Rich: Yes but that is not the caret position
20:21:22 <Downchuck> For purposes of magnification?
20:21:27 <richardschwerdtfe> just for magnification
20:21:37 <Downchuck> the caret is a sub-position.
20:22:20 <frankolivier> Yes, for magnification; if you have other UI (checkboxes, links, etc) in your canvas element, you should be able to set the x,y,w,z of the canvas subtree elements
20:22:34 <richardschwerdtfe> great. 
20:22:49 <richardschwerdtfe> Just take a quick look at the change to the 2D API spec.
20:22:57 <frankolivier> What does the .setCaretSelectionRect APi get you in addition to that concept?
20:23:39 <richardschwerdtfe> It tells the underlying OS to generate a caret position change event, like setCaretPos in Windows. 
20:23:48 <Downchuck> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/131
20:24:07 <richardschwerdtfe> I could get JAWS to make the change for IE 9 in the next major Magic release
20:24:15 <richardschwerdtfe> or IE9+
20:24:21 <Downchuck> I'm trying to get a "Yes". This is used in OS.X voiceover and magnification
20:24:54 <richardschwerdtfe> for some OS platforms there is additional information (bounding rectangle and the element that are passed to the call to assist the AT in centering the zoom around the object)
20:24:54 <Downchuck> http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/ms648399(v=vs.85).aspx
20:25:46 <richardschwerdtfe> for example, if you has the IAccessible associated with the element you could assess type of object and places the zoom position where the caret is at the center or at the left of the zoom area
20:25:50 <frankolivier> Sure, but in the IE case we report the x,y,w,h of the canvas acc tree elements to the screen reader; setting these attributes for any UI under the canvas tree woudl achieve that goal
20:26:42 <richardschwerdtfe> Frank: A caret width and height is only a couple pixels. We are not talking about the bounding rectangle of an object
20:27:44 <richardschwerdtfe> frank: you could be in the middle of a text field and the bounding rectangle is the HTML 5 input control for type="text" but the caret position is somewhere within that text field 
20:27:58 <richardschwerdtfe> frank: Am I making sense?
20:28:34 <richardschwerdtfe> Frank: this is positional information relative to the screen that the screen magnifier ultimately sees
20:29:38 <richardschwerdtfe> Frank: There is no question we need to know where the UI element is on the screen but that is not Issue 131.
20:29:45 <frankolivier> Yes, I get the concept; this is the case where you are recreating text input in canvas - and our position here is that this is better served by text entry outside the canvas element
20:30:32 <richardschwerdtfe> Frank: so you are saying that nobody should be able to have a caret anywhere in canvas?
20:30:47 <richardschwerdtfe> Frank: forget rich text editing
20:32:09 <Zakim> +[Microsoft]
20:32:29 <frankolivier> (calling in)
20:34:15 <Downchuck> Text-to-speech allows a user to focus on a button, then use hot keys to read the letters of that button opposed to the entire text; highlighting the character as it moves
20:34:53 <Downchuck> entirely based on navigation, low-vision use, not related to actual character input
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20:38:15 <richardschwerdtfe> frank: I think we are getting to a hybrid model in canvas where we have a DOM and procedural information.
20:40:25 <richardschwerdtfe> Rich: The caret position API is separate from traditional Accessibility API. Ultimately (spoke to freedom scientific) and they would like the API associated with the object.
20:40:50 <richardschwerdtfe> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-canvas-api/2011JanMar/att-0067/HTML_Canvas_2DContext20110214.html
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20:42:15 <Downchuck> whatwg standard: drawFocusRing(element, x, y, [canDrawCustom])
20:42:38 <Downchuck> revised: drawFocusRing(element); setCaretSelectionRect(element, x,y,w,h);
20:45:25 <Downchuck> "ISSUE-131: Should we add a caret location API to canvas, or is the focus API sufficient?"
20:45:37 <richardschwerdtfe> Frank: I will review section 11 with a fine tooth comb for this week
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20:46:45 <richardschwerdtfe> Topic: Should we restrict HTML elements in the canvas subtree?
20:47:10 <richardschwerdtfe> Rich: It looked like people did not want restrictions
20:48:24 <richardschwerdtfe> Frank: I am going to ask people whether other people think of Maciej's and Ian's response
20:48:38 <richardschwerdtfe> Rich: Should we make the proposal?
20:49:11 <richardschwerdtfe> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-canvas-api/2011JanMar/att-0065/HTML_Canvas_Element.html
20:49:53 <richardschwerdtfe> Chuck: asked on WhatWG whether all things should be initialized in canvas subtree and the answer was yes
20:50:39 <richardschwerdtfe> Resolution: Delete canvas element change proposal on initializing content
20:52:07 <richardschwerdtfe> Rich: At some point we may be asked to move the caret/selection API to a higher level
20:52:31 <richardschwerdtfe> Frank: has svg expressed interest
20:52:57 <richardschwerdtfe> Rich: heard this from Ben. Hawkes-Lewis, not sure if he is affiliated with SVG
20:53:47 <richardschwerdtfe> Topic: Chuck having made changes to Chrome for focus ring or caret/selection
20:53:59 <richardschwerdtfe> Chuck: waiting for dominic's changes
20:56:56 <richardschwerdtfe> Resolution: bug 11238 is closed as is a duplicate
20:58:12 <richardschwerdtfe> Topic: Bug 11239
20:58:15 <richardschwerdtfe> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2011Jan/0200.html
21:00:00 <richardschwerdtfe> Resolution: duplicate of issue 131 so is closed
21:00:22 <richardschwerdtfe> Topic: Bug 11240
21:01:03 <richardschwerdtfe> Closed: this is a duplicate of Issue 131: http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/131
21:01:15 <Downchuck> I ran through these here: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-canvas-api/2011JanMar/0066.html
21:01:37 <richardschwerdtfe> Topic: Bug 11241
21:01:47 <richardschwerdtfe> Duplicate of Issue 131:  So closed
21:02:09 <Zakim> -[Microsoft]
21:02:55 <richardschwerdtfe> Topic: Bug 11242
21:03:12 <richardschwerdtfe> Resolution: Closed as are not going to restrict canvas subtree content
21:04:29 <richardschwerdtfe> Topic: 11238
21:04:40 <richardschwerdtfe> Topic: Bug 11238
21:05:06 <richardschwerdtfe> Correction 11328
21:05:12 <richardschwerdtfe> Topic: Bug 11328
21:05:26 <richardschwerdtfe> Rich: Leave open for now
21:05:57 <richardschwerdtfe> Topic: Bug 11329
21:06:13 <richardschwerdtfe> Reassigned to to web apps. working group
21:06:16 <richardschwerdtfe> leave open
21:06:21 <richardschwerdtfe> rich: leave open
21:06:42 <richardschwerdtfe> Topic: 11342
21:08:13 <richardschwerdtfe> Leave Open. Frank. Please look at this defect. Ian tried to close it
21:08:26 <richardschwerdtfe> http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=11342
21:08:46 <richardschwerdtfe> Frank: the text metrics change is in the 2DAPI change proposal.
21:09:32 <richardschwerdtfe> Chuck: With out it we have diffculties positioning either the caret, selection, or focus ring around any type of text
21:09:56 <richardschwerdtfe> RRSAgent, make log public
21:10:20 <Downchuck> CanvasRenderingContext2D::drawTextInternal
21:10:42 <richardschwerdtfe> meeting: HTML 5 Canvas Accessibility Working Group
21:10:44 <Downchuck> that's where in webkit the code for baseline is
21:10:46 <richardschwerdtfe> chair: Rich
21:10:51 <richardschwerdtfe> RRSAgent, draft minutes
21:10:51 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/02/14-html-a11y-minutes.html richardschwerdtfe
21:12:20 <Downchuck> https://bugs.webkit.org/show_bug.cgi?id=50126
21:20:07 <Zakim> -Rich
21:20:08 <Zakim> - +1.949.637.aaaa
21:20:08 <Zakim> WAI_PFWG(A11Y)3:00PM has ended
21:20:10 <Zakim> Attendees were +1.949.637.aaaa, Rich, [Microsoft]
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