14:47:56 RRSAgent has joined #lld 14:47:57 logging to http://www.w3.org/2011/02/10-lld-irc 14:48:10 zakim, this will be lld 14:48:10 ok, emma; I see INC_LLDXG()10:00AM scheduled to start in 12 minutes 14:48:25 Meeting : LLD XG 14:48:31 Chair: Emma 14:48:45 Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xg-lld/2011Feb/0015.html 14:48:58 antoine has joined #lld 14:49:10 Previous: 2011-02-03 http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/minutes/2011/02/03-lld-minutes.html 14:49:24 rrsagent, please make record public 14:49:35 rrsagent, please draft minutes 14:49:35 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/02/10-lld-minutes.html emma 14:50:11 Regrets: Peter, Lars 14:51:05 rsinger has joined #lld 14:54:32 mduke has joined #lld 14:55:47 kcoyle has joined #lld 14:56:31 uldis has joined #lld 14:57:12 TomB has joined #lld 14:57:12 INC_LLDXG()10:00AM has now started 14:57:16 AlexanderH has joined #lld 14:57:19 +[IPcaller] 14:57:28 zakim, IPcaller is me 14:57:28 +antoine; got it 14:57:32 +??P2 14:57:33 +[IPcaller] 14:57:38 zakim, ??P2 is TomB 14:57:38 +TomB; got it 14:57:56 jeff_ has joined #lld 14:58:10 +??P13 14:58:13 -[IPcaller] 14:58:21 zakim, ??P13 is emma 14:58:21 +emma; got it 14:58:25 kefo has joined #lld 14:58:28 +[LC] 14:58:30 zakim, LC is me 14:58:30 +kefo; got it 14:58:32 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/02/10-lld-minutes.html TomB 14:58:38 GordonD has joined #lld 14:58:50 + +1.614.764.aaaa 14:58:51 zakim, mute me please 14:58:51 kefo should now be muted 14:58:58 zakim, aaaa is me 14:58:58 +jeff_; got it 14:59:05 +??P15 14:59:10 zakim, ??P15 is me 14:59:10 +uldis; got it 14:59:13 +??P12 14:59:14 zakim, mute me 14:59:15 jeff_ should now be muted 14:59:27 zakim, ??P12 is kcoyle 14:59:27 +kcoyle; got it 14:59:40 zakim, who is here? 14:59:40 On the phone I see antoine, TomB, emma, kefo (muted), jeff_ (muted), uldis, kcoyle 15:00:17 +[IPcaller] 15:00:28 +??P17 15:00:31 zakim, IPcaller is GordonD 15:00:31 +GordonD; got it 15:00:51 zakim, ??P17 is AlexanderH 15:00:51 +AlexanderH; got it 15:01:21 + +1.330.289.aabb 15:01:29 rayd has joined #lld 15:01:54 + +1.423.463.aacc 15:02:02 zakim, aabb is marcia 15:02:04 +marcia; got it 15:02:15 zakim, aacc is rsinger 15:02:18 +rsinger; got it 15:02:27 jneubert has joined #lld 15:02:37 marcia has joined #lld 15:02:47 zakim, who's here 15:02:47 emma, you need to end that query with '?' 15:02:49 mduke: Bristol and Nice did not work for me either, some telcos ago. 'm calling +1 (US) number via skype 15:03:01 michaelp has joined #lld 15:03:07 zakim, who's here ? 15:03:07 On the phone I see antoine, TomB, emma, kefo (muted), jeff_ (muted), uldis, kcoyle, GordonD (muted), AlexanderH, marcia, rsinger 15:03:13 +??P32 15:03:14 zakim, mute me 15:03:14 marcia should now be muted 15:03:24 zakim, ??P32 is michaelp 15:03:24 +michaelp; got it 15:03:31 jodi has joined #LLD 15:03:31 zakim, mute me 15:03:31 michaelp should now be muted 15:03:57 + +1.763.463.aadd 15:04:09 zakim, aadd is Jodi 15:04:09 +Jodi; got it 15:04:17 +[LC] 15:04:17 Zakim, LC is edsu 15:04:18 +edsu; got it 15:04:27 + +44.194.346.aaee 15:04:30 +??P6 15:04:37 Zakim, ??P6 is me 15:04:37 +Asaf; got it 15:04:46 sure, I can scribe 15:04:54 zakim, aaee is mduke 15:04:54 +mduke; got it 15:05:01 Scribe: jodi 15:05:08 Scribenick: jodi 15:05:17 Scribenick: jodi 15:05:27 + +49.4.aaff 15:05:32 zakim, mute me 15:05:32 mduke should now be muted 15:05:36 zakim, aaff is me 15:05:36 +jneubert; got it 15:05:56 ww has joined #lld 15:06:25 yes 15:06:25 zakim, who is noisy? 15:06:26 +[LC] 15:06:30 zakim, LC is rayd 15:06:30 +rayd; got it 15:06:36 antoine, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: emma (44%), Jodi (27%) 15:06:36 TOPIC: Admin 15:07:03 + +44.131.516.aagg 15:07:05 +1 accept minutes 15:07:15 Minutes accepted. 15:07:15 Zakim, aagg is me 15:07:15 +ww; got it 15:07:38 zakim, mute me 15:07:38 ww should now be muted 15:08:01 Another teleconference to be scheduled. 15:08:08 -emma 15:08:54 For some members this telcon time is quite late: 5 members after 10 PM, some even after midnight. We have proposed a special teleconference where they would have a chance to participate and present.... 4 in Japan, 1 in Malaysia 15:09:18 TomB: Hopes some people, especially from US West Coast and Europe could join 15:09:33 ... to have larger representation from the group 15:10:19 +??P13 15:10:28 zakim, ??P13 is emma 15:10:28 +emma; got it 15:10:42 ... for the Asia-Pacific time zone telecon. 15:11:25 Emma: Let's talk about the LOD-LAM Summit that is planned for San Francisco for June: http://lod-lam.net/ 15:11:44 i applied 15:11:45 ... People can apply to attend this summit [by February 28]. Who plans to apply? 15:11:46 I'll be in SF, so would most likely like to attend. 15:12:39 ... maybe we can invite organizers to one of our telcons in February, to see what they would expect from us. 15:12:40 +1 for inviting Jon Voss for 10 min once 15:12:54 +1 15:12:57 what would be the purpose? 15:13:28 ...purpose would be to have more explanation of the event and what they're expecting 15:13:50 Karen: The way the event is being described: an open space style barcamp... 15:13:55 -Jodi 15:14:02 ...So the content will be determined 15:14:06 sorry be right back 15:14:08 skype-- 15:14:25 +Jodi 15:14:25 Karen: we could talk about gap analysis 15:14:31 ...some direction in any event 15:14:45 -kcoyle 15:14:47 So the content will be determined on the first day of the event. 15:14:56 oops. hit wrong button. will call back in 15:15:08 We are experiencing a Bad Skype Day. 15:15:28 +1 15:15:48 +??P12 15:15:55 TomB: I'm happy to invite Jon Voss for next week's call. 15:15:58 http://lod-lam.net/summit/about/ 15:16:07 zakim, ??P12 is kcoyle 15:16:07 +kcoyle; got it 15:16:12 ... The summit talks about deriving requirements, and that's what we've been trying to do. 15:16:24 +1 15:16:30 ... Find out from Jon what he hopes to achieve, and how that fits in with what we've been doing 15:16:51 From the Website: * Identify the tools and techniques for publishing and working with Linked Open Data. * Draft precedents and policy for licensing and copyright considerations regarding the publishing of library, archive, and museum metadata. * Publish definitions and promote use cases that will give LAM staff the tools they need to advocate for Linked Open Data in their institutions. 15:16:53 ACTION: Tom B to invite Jon Voss for a future telcon, to present http://lod-lam.net/summit/ 15:16:58 marcia++ 15:17:18 TOPIC: FINAL REPORT DRAFT 15:17:28 Draft Report is at: http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/wiki/DraftReport 15:17:52 Emma: We're starting by putting everything in one big draft, to see where we stand 15:18:18 ... Right now we need to focus on finishing the cluster effort... 15:18:29 (hard to hear emma) 15:18:55 ... So that we can move on to other things. We should be closing out clusters when they are good enough. Let the reviewers proofread what has been done, and input new ideas. 15:18:55 zakim, who is making noise? 15:19:02 -mduke 15:19:05 mduke, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: emma (79%) 15:19:14 :) 15:19:34 Emma: Can we look at every cluster action, to see if we can close the action? 15:19:39 Bibliographic data cluster is in "good enough" state - can close action. 15:19:51 Emma: If we can't close it, replace the generic action with a more specific one. 15:19:58 Yes 15:20:10 I mean, it's finished 15:20:39 Can authority data have one more week? 15:21:04 ACTION: Gordon and Martin to curate bibliographic data cluster for end of December [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/minutes/2010/10/23-lld-minutes.html#action05 15:21:06 --DONE 15:21:17 +mduke 15:21:17 q+ to ask if we will have an opportunity to suggest edits later 15:21:20 ACTION: Gordon and Martin to curate bibliographic data cluster for end of December [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/minutes/2010/10/23-lld-minutes.html#action05] 15:21:21 --DONE 15:21:47 ack ed 15:21:47 edsu, you wanted to ask if we will have an opportunity to suggest edits later 15:22:08 q+ to answer ed 15:22:16 Ed: When the pieces are assembled into the final document, we'll be able to raise questions, and suggest edits, right? 15:22:26 i assume we'll need to copy edit and make them look somewhat alike 15:23:01 ack tom 15:23:01 TomB, you wanted to answer ed 15:23:03 Antoine takes over chairing, and acknowledges Tom. 15:23:17 TomB: I think we need to transition to a reviewing stage... 15:23:51 ... By formal review, I mean we assign a reader or two, read through a section, post comments to the list 2-3 days before a call, and then, during the call discuss any issues arising. 15:24:14 ...That will get as many eyes looking at each section, from various points of view, not just the authors' point of view. 15:24:30 ...At the same time, we'll smooth out stylistic differences. 15:24:35 -emma 15:24:59 Ed: If I get assigned to work on "bibliographic data" -- or choose to -- ... 15:25:16 Ed: My hope is that we'll look at the document as a whole, rather than just focusing on one piece. 15:25:39 Ed: I like the sound of moving into a new phase of reviewing, but I hope for us to be reading the whole document. 15:25:51 TomB: Maybe we could start by reviewing SECTIONS of the document. 15:26:09 ... Reviewing the document as a whole might be too overwhelming -- too many comments at once to allow us to focus. 15:26:21 +??P13 15:26:34 antoine: Maybe two levels of editing? 15:26:40 +1 for formal review and subsequent, and cosmetic, editing 15:27:05 ... One to focus on the content, the second to focus on the editorial level, rather than the content of each section. 15:27:07 Cosmetic editing should be done by one or two people only (+1 Antoine) 15:27:08 +1 we need stylistic reviews too 15:27:24 q+ 15:27:25 q+ to talk about the whole-document content aspect 15:27:37 ack kcoyle 15:27:38 lol 15:27:44 TomB: We need stylistic review. 15:27:50 bah, writing! 15:27:56 wont the computers do that for us? 15:28:00 Karen: Most of the document hasn't been written yet. We need to talk about how that's going to happen. 15:28:11 To write the final report, we must stop writing the use cases, etc. 15:28:19 ... Will people volunteer to write what they want and see what comes of that? 15:28:40 Ed: It's from assembling what we've written. 15:28:44 +1 Karen - there are indeed gaps, some big ones! 15:28:54 Karen: Right now it looks like a list of lists. But it needs to be a document with conclusions. 15:29:02 Suggest we need a game plan for the review - deadlines for future discussions leading into content, etc. 15:29:03 kcoyle++ 15:29:12 TomB: Rationale to assemble in one document is to see what's there and what's not there. 15:29:22 kcoyle++ 15:29:28 Karen: It's not only the writing: We have to draw conclusions. But I don't feel that we *have* drawn conclusions yet. That's another step. 15:29:37 That might happen by writing and then discussing... 15:29:45 or we might have a session where we discuss what we've learned 15:29:54 q+ 15:29:58 the sooner we get the doc started the better 15:30:01 i guess 15:30:07 go ahead Tom 15:30:16 Antoine: Gordon suggests we should ??? 15:30:33 s/???/create a planning 15:30:41 Tom: If I could suggest, all of the cluster authors should have an action to copy their text over into the draft report... 15:30:56 ... We should move content into one document (replacing placeholders) 15:31:05 -1! 15:31:08 q+ to suggest that a lot of content is actually present in UC clusters 15:31:19 ...Rather than using transclusion, maybe it would be better to copy things over. 15:31:23 ack TomB 15:31:32 antoine, did you mean "-1" ? 15:31:40 ack jodi 15:31:40 jodi, you wanted to talk about the whole-document content aspect 15:32:17 Jodi: read the whole report as soon as possible to figure out what are the gaps & what we already know 15:32:25 jodi: the gaps are not just in the content but in what we have addressed 15:32:30 ... and what we hanven't addressed yet 15:32:59 ... I like the idea to ask questions on the list and then discussing on telecons 15:33:34 Antoine: I'm afraid of having to edit the large document on the wiki... 15:33:41 ...Transclusion would be more flexible 15:33:54 http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/wiki/DraftReport 15:34:11 Jodi is a WikiNinja! :) 15:34:14 q+ to suggest that the chairs assign reviewers 15:34:17 +1 for transclusion, lowers the risk of versionning 15:34:27 +1 15:34:42 I can take an action on that 15:34:54 ACTION: Jodi to replace placeholders in http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/wiki/DraftReport with transclusion code 15:35:18 Antoine: Not everything will be ready by next week... 15:35:29 ...focus on the clusters and sections which are in a readable state 15:35:56 readable & reasonable would be nice :-) 15:36:07 clusters need review before 15:36:13 Suggest transcluding everything - will help to prioritise work! 15:36:35 We need to shift focus to final document 15:36:39 Suggesting transcluding everything unless the cluster authors protest 15:36:39 I kind of agree with you, Gordon. Also for simplicity. 15:36:43 doesn't translcuison mean the report is never finished? 15:37:02 Ed: I like the idea of having a readable and reasonable document to look at. I'm indifferent about transclusion. 15:37:19 ... The cluster pages are kind of like notes. But now we have the task of assembling this report. 15:37:35 I mean transcluding everything that is to be included in the final report ... 15:37:43 ... We need conclusions, introductions, .... And whoever is editing this document will need to decide what to take out of each document. 15:37:50 +1 agree with Ed - we will need to start doing some significant editing on those sections 15:38:10 ... For me, the mechanical process of transclusion is not going to help significantly. 15:38:11 well, but can't the transcluded full thing be copy and pasted into a "final" document to edit? 15:38:14 ack emma 15:38:14 emma, you wanted to suggest that a lot of content is actually present in UC clusters 15:38:16 rsinger++ 15:38:17 +1 can live with transcluding everything 15:38:26 but the transcluded pieces would be easier to maintain until we get to that point 15:38:41 spellcheck sure hates "transclusion" 15:38:50 Emma: We have lots of content in the use case clusters, but this content is not going fit just in the use case section. It will go into the requirements section, etc. 15:38:51 +1 re Ed's suggestion. But the UC cluster pages would have to be frozen before we can move on. 15:39:17 ... I agree with Ed: if we use transclusion, it doesn't make a lot of difference. We can still edit them in a separate page. 15:39:21 plus it will be a lot easier to have talk pages about the individual sections, right? 15:39:42 ... I'm wondering what's going to happen with the problems and limitations section [of the use cases]. We have a problems and limitations section of the full report. 15:39:49 We agreed to have a telecon session on the general problems raised in Library standards and linked data; we can also include extracted Problems and limitations from clusters ... 15:39:52 Antoine: We can move that content to the problems and limitations section. 15:40:18 I'm logging. I don't understand 'who is in the queue', TomB. Try /msg RRSAgent help 15:40:20 q? 15:40:31 ack TomB 15:40:31 TomB, you wanted to suggest that the chairs assign reviewers 15:40:32 Antoine: We've discussed this for a while and only have 20 minutes left. I think we'll keep the action on Jodi to transclude. We will figure out from there what we need to edit in the next weeks. 15:40:55 TomB: The chairs have been discussing: How do we get reviewers. 15:41:09 ... Using telcon time would not be efficient -- would take a lot of our time. 15:41:31 +1 15:41:34 +1 15:41:42 and cherry pick who reviews it :-( 15:41:44 ... Inclined to have the chairs actively recruit reviewers without using telcon time by sending notes to people. 15:41:45 +1 15:42:28 Ed: It doesn't seem very open for me for the chairs to pick who you want to review it. 15:42:33 we could also do it by asking people to volunteer on a wiki page - more open ? 15:42:44 TomB: It's a little like a conference committee -- assignments being sent out. 15:42:47 Compromise: do it on the list. 15:43:02 Antoine: There's also a suggestion from Emma that we could do this on a wiki page. 15:43:19 Ask for volunteers, with deadline, then assign gaps 15:43:56 Ed: What else would we discuss on the call? I don't understand. 15:44:04 Antoine: The content. 15:44:22 +1 re wiki page (to record who is [volunteering] to review what). 15:44:24 Antoine: Also want an opportunity to get other people, who aren't on the call. It can be difficult to catch up once someone has volunteered. 15:44:45 +1 to have a wiki page recording who is reviewing, regardless of how we are deciding 15:44:51 Isn't the list our most inclusive space? 15:44:57 Let's send a call on the list + have a wiki page to record the result 15:45:04 emma++ 15:45:06 i agree with asaf 15:45:07 Ed: I don't like the idea of having the three chairs deciding this. 15:45:15 q+ 15:45:20 volunteering for reviewing can take place on multiple mediums -- telco, list, ... 15:45:41 edsu++ 15:46:00 Ed: I would like for people to hear that discussion, whether that happens on the telcon or on the list, I don't mind. Just want to be part of the discussion. 15:46:13 Antoine: I think we have a proposal on the table, to start with... 15:46:18 q? 15:46:25 ... and whatever we decide on top of, we can decide in the calls. 15:46:35 TomB: I think we have two proposals: to use the wiki page and to use the mailing list 15:46:47 q+ to suggest mailing list + wiki in combination 15:46:48 ack TomB 15:47:24 TomB: One of our rationales was to make this more open for people who couldn't make the telcos. On the list, people will see that. 15:47:36 ack Jodi 15:47:36 jodi, you wanted to suggest mailing list + wiki in combination 15:48:08 +1 to Jodi's suggestion 15:48:10 But discussion of report content has to happen on the calls as well. 15:48:26 Jodi: nice to see this on the list, but avoid emails overflow, use the wiki to keep track of it 15:48:51 +1 Jodi: call through email, sign up on the wiki 15:48:56 Antoine: Let's move back to the cluster discussion. 15:49:05 ... In the next week we'll start that. 15:49:05 +1 Jodi 15:49:20 ... Thanks for the input -- it's extremely precious for the life of the working group. 15:49:29 zakim, unmute me 15:49:29 jeff_ should no longer be muted 15:49:47 TOPIC: 15:50:08 Jeff: I think we need a week for this. 15:50:18 (which action?) 15:50:18 q+ to ask if anything needed from use case shepherds - is this authority data cluster? 15:50:33 ACTION: Jeff and Alexander to curate authority data cluster for end of December [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/minutes/2010/10/23-lld-minutes.html#action06 15:50:35 --continuing 15:50:39 --continues 15:50:45 ACTION: Jeff and Alexander to curate authority data cluster for end of December [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/minutes/2010/10/23-lld-minutes.html#action06 15:50:48 --continues 15:50:51 ack monica 15:51:12 Monica: I'm the shepard of one of the use cases in Jeff's cluster. Jeff, do you need anything specific from the shepards of these use cases at this point? 15:51:13 ack md 15:51:15 mduke, you wanted to ask if anything needed from use case shepherds - is this authority data cluster? 15:51:37 "don't call us, we'll call you" 15:51:38 Antoine: The cluster curators should be in touch with the use case shepards if anything is needed. 15:51:39 zakim, mute me 15:51:39 jeff_ should now be muted 15:51:45 TOPIC: Vocabulary alignment cluster 15:51:53 zakim, unmute me 15:51:53 michaelp should no longer be muted 15:52:34 Michael: I think it can be closed. We probably have another call, but I think the changes are going to be very minor, if anything. 15:52:43 ACTION: Antoine and Michael to curate vocabulary alignment cluster for end of December [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/minutes/2010/10/23-lld-minutes.html#action07] 15:52:44 --done 15:53:10 zakim, mute me 15:53:10 michaelp should now be muted 15:53:18 Antoine: Still looking at email from Michael, but I agree that we can move to reviewing. 15:53:21 -AlexanderH 15:53:41 Emma: We haven't done anything in the last few weeks, so I think we can close this. 15:53:43 Karen: I agree. 15:53:45 ACTION: Karen and Emma to curate archive cluster for end of December [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/minutes/2010/10/23-lld-minutes.html#action02] 15:53:46 s/email/edits/ 15:53:47 --done 15:53:59 \me thanks michael! 15:54:14 TOPIC: Citations cluster 15:54:40 Antoine: Has had some discussion, I think this cluster is ready to be reviewed. 15:54:42 Ed: yes 15:54:51 Antoine: This action is already closed 15:54:56 TOPIC: Digital Objects 15:55:00 Asaf, can you address that? 15:55:08 in IRC then? 15:55:11 Yes, I think we're done. 15:55:24 ACTION: Mark, Jodi, and Asaf to curate digital objects cluster for end of December [recorded in 15:55:25 http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/minutes/2010/10/23-lld-minutes.html#action04] 15:55:28 --done 15:55:38 TOPIC: Social uses 15:55:47 (We will probably be tweaking it some more once it's in the context of everything else in the draft report...) 15:56:04 Antoine: This is a new cluster. There's still an ongoing call for use cases which ends on February 15. We can't close this action yet. 15:56:12 Antoine: Have you received some cases? 15:56:51 I expect Collections cluster to be finished next week (I hope Karen agrees ;-) 15:56:52 Jodi: A few, not significant. 15:57:11 Antoine: suggests sending a reminder email due to the approaching deadline. 15:57:17 yes, i agree 15:57:20 ACTION: Collections 15:57:29 ACTION: GordonD and Karen to curate collection cluster [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/minutes/2011/01/06-lld-minutes.html#action11 15:57:32 --continues 15:57:36 ACTION: Uldis and Jodi to create social uses cluster [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/minutes/2010/12/16-lld-minutes.html#action03 15:57:38 --continues 15:57:54 TOPIC: Possible new cluster on web services? 15:58:09 Antoine: Last week on the mailing list there was discussion of a possible new cluster on web services. 15:58:19 zakim, unmute me 15:58:19 kefo should no longer be muted 15:58:39 ...Kevin and ?? -- is there still interest in this? 15:58:52 Kevin: Is there a need? Should we be creating new clusters at this point? 15:58:52 s/??/Joachim 15:59:16 Antoine: It's up to you. If you and Joachim can identify cases that are not being addressed. 15:59:23 \me thanks Asaf 16:00:10