IRC log of webtv on 2011-02-09

Timestamps are in UTC.

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logging to http://www.w3.org/2011/02/09-webtv-irc
08:11:53 [francois]
RRSAgent, make logs public
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08:13:21 [francois]
Meeting: Second W3C Web and TV Workshop / day 2
08:13:52 [francois]
Topic: Web Standards and Rich Media Experiences on CE devices, by Gregg Kellogg (Connected Media Experience)
08:13:57 [francois]
scribe: francois
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08:14:30 [francois]
gregg: [presenting CME, goals, underlying technologies]
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08:15:42 [francois]
... Principle components: a manifest, HTML file containing the description of the content.
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08:16:05 [francois]
... The furniture would be aspects that are not necessarily described but implied by the ontology
08:16:26 [francois]
... We're consolidating on a W3C widget package.
08:16:45 [francois]
... [example of a generic media player on a PC]
08:17:19 [francois]
... Track interactions, immersive type of experience with any type of presentation.
08:17:31 [francois]
... Same package can be sent to multiple devices (mobile, TV).
08:18:05 [francois]
... That's not to say that everything is uniform. One of the advantages of a semantic presentation is that we can describe things in a more virtual sense.
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08:18:17 [francois]
... Two profiles so far: a mobile profile and a high definition profile.
08:18:35 [francois]
... Profiles rather describe different encoding, not displays.
08:18:53 [francois]
... [example of a CME manifest in notation-3]
08:21:35 [francois]
... Artists may have contracts with specific constraints on what can get on screen and what cannot.
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08:22:32 [francois]
... Different relationship can be described using the ontology
08:23:24 [francois]
... Using unique identifiers enables external sources to reference CME-released tracks (example of DBPedia)
08:25:05 [francois]
... Basic workflow: go to a retailer, buy content (MP3), the media player identifies content that may be CME through some ID3 tag, and performs discovery to enhance the presentation.
08:25:20 [francois]
... The proof of purchase is extracted from the MP3 file
08:25:49 [francois]
... [example of a proof of purchase with a signature]
08:26:54 [francois]
... Multi-platform, presentation is based on HTML/CSS/Javascript
08:27:09 [francois]
... The agent architecture is an HTML5 platform with a few specifics.
08:27:39 [francois]
... One of our expectations is DVD-like stability (it needs to run in 2021).
08:28:19 [francois]
... But there are some limitations such as the online support as a release may not come with support for a long period of time.
08:28:57 [francois]
... Using widgets that provide persistent storage could be a solution.
08:29:14 [francois]
... HTML5 is not yet done.
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08:30:18 [francois]
jp: Put in the context of Web and TV. First reaction is let's not forget radio, music.
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08:30:31 [francois]
... Maybe we can consider solutions in these other fields.
08:30:40 [olivier]
/names
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08:30:52 [francois]
... The media annotations group has been done some stuff.
08:31:12 [francois]
gregg: the media annotations is more a flat thing. We need more structured information.
08:31:47 [francois]
... I already presented this work at last TPAC in the media annotations WG. Daniel Park is contributing to CME as well.
08:32:15 [francois]
Topic: Metadata and Service delivery architecture, by Alexander Adolf (Conditon-ALPHA)
08:33:37 [francois]
alexander: I've been working a long time in DVB.
08:34:13 [francois]
... [worldmap of DVB land]
08:35:20 [francois]
... Countries where DVB is already deployed and countries where there was a signed agreement on terrestrial frequencies.
08:35:33 [francois]
... Time scale for these decisions: two times per hundred years.
08:35:52 [francois]
... 500 millions receivers deployed by DVB members as of late 2009.
08:36:27 [francois]
... TV is very huge.
08:37:02 [francois]
... On total digital receivers in use: DVG is 52%, IP is 7%. It has momentum.
08:37:38 [francois]
... Technical proposal: example of twitter feed with a link to the TV show
08:38:04 [francois]
... Users click on the link, and get the show.
08:38:26 [francois]
... It would be great, indeed.
08:39:11 [francois]
... The scheme part is "crid". I'll get to that later on. The contextual menu should have three entries: Read more, watch and record.
08:39:41 [francois]
... These 3 options call for two features: one is service discovery and selection. The other is content guide.
08:40:12 [francois]
... Let's focus on the content guide. DVB has used TV-Anytime, based on XML.
08:40:20 [francois]
... It's inherently Web-friendly.
08:40:58 [francois]
... It allows for segmentation, and schedule, and uses CRID (Content Reference IDentifier)
08:41:38 [francois]
... All features (title, director, ...) link to a CRID that identifies the content.
08:41:55 [francois]
... This name then needs to be resolved: content you have, broadband accessible content or broadcast.
08:42:43 [francois]
... The URI resolution process is one-step: DNS servers give you the address. CRID resolution process is multi-step.
08:43:33 [francois]
... example of Olympics and news, with resolution process that take you to things that are more specific.
08:43:49 [francois]
... We do not have such a resolution process as of today.
08:44:33 [francois]
... We need a federated and distributed CRID resolution service with a first level local component in the client, and security and authentification.
08:44:45 [francois]
... Content providers want to ensure that the content displayed is their content.
08:45:27 [francois]
... Now the other part: service discovery.
08:45:40 [francois]
... [example of a service discovery bootstrap]
08:46:41 [francois]
... Two modes of delivery HTTP, where you do GET requests. If you get a DVB address, you do the other thing.
08:46:51 [francois]
... Service discovery records already use XML.
08:47:07 [francois]
... So why do we need this complexity?
08:47:55 [francois]
... Service provider takes content from Content creators. Platform operator takes content from service provider. And the network operator delivers the content.
08:48:30 [francois]
... Platform operator and network operator may be combined. Some people do everything, or almost everything.
08:48:55 [francois]
... All combinaisons are possible.
08:49:22 [francois]
... I could continue this for a long time. That's why it's important that we have fine-grained features.
08:50:14 [francois]
... Standards proposal: I don't think that DVB will really want to start working on a full internet TV solution. They're a big player, but not to the point of stepping into other businesses.
08:50:34 [francois]
... I think we will need to team up, between DVB, MPEG, W3C.
08:51:45 [francois]
... W3C has HTML5 and CSS3. DVB has already created XML formats that could be added. There's a set of 10000 Java APIs that Blu-Ray has also adopted.
08:52:11 [francois]
... As you all know, DVB has been working a lot with MPEG.
08:52:29 [francois]
... We need more connection between W3C, DVB and MPEG.
08:52:46 [francois]
... Interactivity with APIs is required.
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08:53:15 [francois]
... Conclusion: we can have a willing combinaison in implementing this. My goal is to have service compatibility.
08:53:26 [francois]
... Services transported on different networks.
08:53:35 [francois]
... I think that would be a winning team.
08:54:19 [francois]
Question: consumer electronic in the US has something built on TV-Anytime.
08:54:49 [francois]
thomas: why don't you use HTTP URLs?
08:56:00 [francois]
alexander: how do you ensure that the metadata still corresponds to the content? Whatever operating environment you may have. I think we need that additional indirection.
08:56:20 [francois]
jp: there are also DVB URIs.
08:56:47 [francois]
thomas: Still, HTTP URLs are much more deployed than everything else.
08:57:13 [francois]
alexander: in my view, the source in the video tag would be a CRID or a DVB URI.
08:57:38 [francois]
mark: getting more info from a URI about other URIs is very much REST, common API functionality.
08:58:10 [francois]
giuseppe: what about the rest of the world in the map you showed?
08:58:29 [francois]
... For the audience that comes from the other parts of the world, do they share your views?
08:58:59 [francois]
alexander: In mobile, we went from segmented standards to global standards. We're heading in the same direction for TV.
08:59:40 [francois]
giuseppe: some requirements were identified from some region, are they valid elsewhere?
09:00:01 [francois]
jp: that's what the IG is for. Join the discussion and IG, to reconciliate the URI resolution mechanism as well.
09:00:24 [francois]
Topic: NTT on Service Discovery, by Kiyoshi Tanaka (NTT)
09:01:26 [francois]
kiyoshi: IPTV Forum Japan has 54 members and develops specifications followed in Japan.
09:01:53 [francois]
... I'll show a video originally intended for promotion, but it's a good starting point, I think.
09:04:03 [francois]
... [video presentation of IPTV Forum Japan]
09:08:14 [francois]
... Introducing IPTV with the example of Hikari TV.
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09:08:56 [francois]
... Screenshot of the menu on a TV screen. With a remote controller, you can interact with features.
09:09:43 [francois]
... Two features: high-definition video delivery and IP retransmission of digital terrestrial contenct.
09:10:27 [francois]
... Specifications are harmonized with digit TV broadcasting service, so we can manufacture TV that are both DTV and IPTV.
09:10:47 [francois]
... They are also harmonized with ITU-T.
09:10:54 [francois]
... There are many points in common.
09:11:30 [francois]
... IPTV terminal is based on H.721.
09:12:19 [francois]
... This model is implemented and deployed.
09:13:28 [francois]
... Going back to service discovery. Why is it needed? Multiple service providers available over each network.
09:13:52 [francois]
... You need some way to discover them when you use a new IPTV device.
09:15:02 [francois]
... It allows users to enjoy various services and service providers easily. You need to get service provider descriptions for the user to select the appropriate service provider.
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09:16:18 [francois]
... ITU-T H.770 defines the various parts needed for that selection to happen. It is harmonized with DVB, as well as ATIS (Alliance for Telecommunications Industry Solutions).
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09:17:19 [francois]
... In the Web and TV, they must be some mechanism to discover service provider discovery and service discovery, harmonized with ITU-T H.770.
09:17:55 [francois]
hj: are there providers in Japan that use the same specification?
09:18:07 [francois]
... All the service providers use the same specification in Japan?
09:18:31 [francois]
kiyoshi: service providers can use the standard, yes.
09:18:48 [francois]
hj: could this be used outside of Japan?
09:19:07 [francois]
kiyoshi: I don't know.
09:19:45 [francois]
masahito: wearing my ITU-T. Developing countries in particular are adopting ITU-T right now.
09:20:21 [chaals]
[India, China, Singapore, Nepal... and?)
09:20:31 [francois]
jp: We have a proposal here to have the IG have a look at the specifications from ITU-T. Can W3C have access to H.770?
09:20:44 [francois]
masahito: there is an official liaison between W3C and ITU-T.
09:21:05 [francois]
... Everybody can download the PDF file of these specifications.
09:21:24 [francois]
jp: ok, we need to ensure that the work flows in the right group
09:22:06 [francois]
masahito: in Korea, some specifications of ITU-T have been adopted. TV-Anytime is being used there.
09:22:13 [francois]
Topic: APIs and URLs for Social TV, by Dan Brickley (NoTube project & Vrije Universiteit)
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09:23:07 [francois]
danbri: going to present 3 requirements from linked social tv, and will try to reshape the requirements in terms of what W3C should do next.
09:24:21 [francois]
... [some background on danbri, w3c, semantic web project, joost, social web group]
09:24:59 [francois]
... We looked at different things that failed to build or were built to extract actual requirements.
09:25:43 [francois]
... First thing: let metadata flow widely, advertising content rather than be a hidden asset. Second thing: it is very useful to identify content with useful URLs.
09:26:34 [francois]
... The scenario we have in mind is not TV as a device. The Web is not just technology. It's a linked world with lots of people connected to it.
09:26:40 [francois]
... We sketched a lot of scenarios.
09:27:11 [francois]
... and we noticed that nobody says stuff like I wish wacthing TV was more like using a computer!
09:27:46 [francois]
... We build some prototypes and demos. I love APIs too.
09:28:21 [francois]
... Here is an example: you can use the Web to put stuff on top of others. Sometimes it's useful, sometimes it's not.
09:28:43 [yosuke]
s/and?)/and many developing countries/
09:28:43 [francois]
... I've brought a few remote controls [showing a huge TV remote control]
09:29:17 [francois]
... People who designed these things were not stupid, they had to resolve competing requirements.
09:29:26 [yosuke]
s/developing countries/developing countries.]/
09:29:40 [francois]
... We tend to think that by hacking with free software and media center, we can experiment freely.
09:30:32 [francois]
... We've made experiments with pairing protocols, for instance with QR codes and XMPP uris.
09:30:56 [francois]
... [demos of prototypes with second-screen]
09:31:21 [francois]
... We wanted to build things that are agnostic of the device you're using, the context you're in, etc.
09:31:59 [francois]
... We need to take into account new devices such as multi-touch big tables.
09:32:43 [francois]
... Second screen APIs have huge potential, standard protocols are needed. XMPP has some potential, but it's hard to address latency issues when you're going through e.g. Google.
09:33:04 [francois]
... Things are useless without identifiers.
09:33:39 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/02/09-webtv-minutes.html olivier
09:33:43 [francois]
... Example of a demo that connect archive.org films via wikipedia to the rest of the world.
09:35:30 [francois]
... Whenever one thing is improved, through links, the rest is improved as well.
09:35:43 [francois]
... We've used Microsoft Pivot Viewer here.
09:36:34 [francois]
... By using a URI to identify content, you can follow links and get deeper in the Web.
09:37:28 [francois]
... If you look at the source of these two pages: you'll see RDFa with Facebook ontology.
09:38:15 [francois]
... Conclusion: this is not rocket science (we know the Web is built from URLs). Linking documents is much easier than linking devices. You should be talking to each other more.
09:38:40 [francois]
... Protocol deserves a working group. I would like to see best practices note discussed within the IG.
09:39:11 [francois]
[Matt Hammond, BBC taking the stage]
09:39:48 [francois]
matt: we think we should leave the UI up to the client, and expose the identifiers, metadata, state and a few APIs.
09:40:05 [francois]
... What we've been building is a RESTful web API, based on XML.
09:41:16 [francois]
... Discovery mechanisms are specified. Fairly high-level data model (content, sources, outputs, acquisitions, application extension mechanism). These kind of model applies not just for TV, but also for Internet radios or media centres.
09:41:40 [francois]
... We've built a prototype using MythTV with an iPhone client.
09:41:45 [francois]
... Accessibility is built-in.
09:42:26 [francois]
... Things get interesting when you combine things with the Web, e.g. a personalized BBC page that provides info on what you're currently watching.
09:43:01 [francois]
... Companion content in a second screen (synchronized) is a useful use case.
09:43:41 [francois]
... We want to push this kind of API. Our draft will be publicly available from Friday, and will be submitted as a member submission to W3C
09:44:18 [francois]
jp: I would be ready to sign the metadata freedom act, danbri ;)
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present+ David_Corvoysier
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I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/02/09-webtv-minutes.html libby
10:13:15 [francois]
scribe: christian
10:13:43 [christian]
Session 6 HTML5 and TV: Gap Analysis
10:15:06 [christian]
Topic: Open IPTV Forum (OIPF) DAE Objects and <video> extensions
10:15:20 [christian]
Presenter: Jan Lindquist (Ericsson)
10:16:31 [francois]
Topic: DAE Objects and <video> extensions, by Jan Lindquist (Ericsson)
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10:17:24 [christian]
Overview of agenda ...
10:18:20 [christian]
... [slide of OITF reference architecture]
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10:20:22 [christian]
... several extension to access tv related functionality, including widget management, DLNA RUI architecture, DRM, media playback, PVR, parental rating and communication services
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10:20:50 [christian]
(OITF = OIPF compliant terminal)
10:21:37 [christian]
... scheduled content, including service discovery
10:22:39 [christian]
[Slide with extensions for playback IDL ]
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10:23:29 [christian]
... Classes for audio and video components (AVComponent) accessible from stream, allows selection of video / audio through javascript
10:24:05 [christian]
... Events dispatched when new components available or components are removed
10:24:13 [christian]
... Can be used for adaptive streaming
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10:24:38 [christian]
[Slide with extensions for buffering]
10:25:21 [christian]
... Events and properties related to bandwidth availability (for adaptive streaming)
10:25:59 [christian]
... Also events for when periods change (for example when changing channel)
10:26:32 [christian]
[Slide on DRM (Content service protection) API extensions]
10:26:49 [christian]
... Generic interface, without specifying specific DRM system solution
10:27:16 [christian]
... High level interface, being notified when there are DRM events, and passing messages to the DRM system
10:27:53 [christian]
... Jan is not suggesting W3C use these exact API:s, but hope to inspire the W3C in API design
10:28:10 [christian]
[Slide on device Configuration API]
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10:28:55 [christian]
... deviceID property, to uniquely identify devices
10:29:28 [christian]
... API for storing digest authentication credentials on a per-domain basis
10:29:42 [christian]
[Slide on general video]
10:30:32 [christian]
question Mike?/Oracle: on the API slides for adaptive streaming - why expose the details of AS to the application, shouldn't it be contained on a system level?
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10:31:41 [christian]
JL: The intention is for the application get some kind of metrics for the content you provide. "Good to know" - like an icon to indicate that the quality has changed. Can improve user experience
10:32:04 [christian]
M?: No way to influence the situation
10:32:17 [christian]
JL: Yes there is a way to influence the buffering strategy through the interfaces
10:32:57 [dewa]
s/Mike?/Michael Lagally/
10:33:08 [christian]
[Back to video slide]
10:33:44 [christian]
... Two different embedded objects, one for video-on-demand, one for broadcast video
10:34:07 [christian]
... Gap analysis / comparison between these objects and the HTML5 video element
10:34:19 [christian]
... Pretty much in synch ... fullscreen still missing from HTML5?
10:35:05 [christian]
... Components for audio and video (AVComponent as discussed earlier) are missing from HTML5, this is an area where W3C standardization would be welcome
10:35:38 [christian]
... Semantics of what happens to streaming video when video playback is stopped, is not taken care of by HTML5
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10:36:39 [christian]
No mapping for channel changing (bind to current channel), circular buffer, and recording also not covered
10:36:45 [christian]
[Reaching expectations slide]
10:37:09 [christian]
... Establish performance requirements
10:37:35 [christian]
... Certification process to ensure user experience
10:38:19 [christian]
... W3C provides a toolkit, other groups provide a toolkit. Not the realm of W3C to get into underlying protocols like DLNA.
10:38:36 [christian]
[W3C Collaborations slide]
10:39:21 [christian]
... 1: Align the video tag for both HTML5 and SVG.
10:39:35 [christian]
... 2: Need to establish boundaries: Who does what?
10:39:54 [christian]
... 3: New interface for recording and control of play out of time-shifted content
10:40:42 [christian]
Next presentation: Connected TV (CTV) Standardization in the UK
10:40:52 [christian]
Presenter: Steve Morris
10:41:04 [christian]
[Slide about DTG]
10:41:08 [francois]
Topic: onnected TV (CTV) Standardisation in the UK, by Steve Morris (UK DTG)
10:41:18 [francois]
s/ onnected TV/ Connected TV/
10:41:47 [christian]
[Slide: DTG Connected TV programme]
10:42:30 [christian]
... New section in DTG D-book, part B: for the hybrid case
10:43:07 [christian]
[Slide on DTG ecosystem]
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10:44:13 [christian]
... phase 1: Terminals are hybrid, phase 2: Terminals will be broadband only (PC or iPad for example)
10:44:41 [christian]
[Slide on HTML working group]
10:46:01 [christian]
... Key challenges: Make it easy to use, coexistance with existing services, a step-change in user experience (UK users are used to DTV services), must be usable as a base for new specifications
10:46:35 [christian]
... Based on HbbTV, plus new features which are required for UK
10:48:09 [christian]
... Biggest new feature which is not from OIPF is improved graphical capabilities
10:48:38 [christian]
... Advanced CSS3 (transformations and transitions) and HTML5 canvas elements
10:48:51 [christian]
... Subsets to perform well on existing silicon
10:49:44 [christian]
... Extensions to the application lifecycle, including coexistance with MHEG and other types of applications
10:49:54 [christian]
[Slide on challenges and opportunities]
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10:50:31 [christian]
... users don't care where content comes from, why should applications force them
10:51:31 [christian]
... Many benefits for users and services
10:51:55 [christian]
[Slide on cooperation with other bodies]
10:52:21 [christian]
... Not having to reinvent the wheel is key
10:52:43 [christian]
... Common conformance and interoperability tests is very important
10:53:00 [christian]
... Otherwise, ttm is simply slow
10:53:13 [christian]
... DTG is working with other bodies, hope to see W3C as a partner in this
10:53:26 [christian]
... Core technology is more than just a spec, also a common way of testing
10:54:43 [christian]
question: chaals: Talked a lot about testing "noone reads the spec all the way through". How do we share tests for effectively? How to make sure test cases are handed back to spec implementers? To avoid fragmentation of conformance suites
10:56:09 [christian]
SM: It's about who should a set of tests. In DTG, it builds on work from many bodies. It comes down to being able to say: "This is what we are using". Not necessarily about who implements tests where, but about defining the boundaries and knowing that you can reuse test cases from for example companies like CEA
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10:57:23 [christian]
CMN: Test cases are really hard work, if test cases were sent back to people who wrote the specs - the spec group can help review the test cases and that they are used in the same way. And help other groups get access to the tests.
10:58:21 [christian]
SM: That is where everybody wants to end up, but because tests are expensive to make - companies who make them are not always willing to distribute them freely
10:59:14 [christian]
Giuseppe: Lots of work has been done outside of W3C, but why done outside W3C?
11:01:20 [christian]
Mark Vickers: Taken a very different approach on this nowadays, previously build on top of MHP. Had everything we needed for TV but doesn't make sense on other devices. Now we have services we want to run on other devices. From that POV the only solution is a single common platform. Gather requirements to see what the missing gaps in HTML to arrive at such a platform. This should happen in W3C. No reason to make TV-specific API:s, should be able to run on ot
11:01:40 [christian]
GP: How do you envision this cooperation in practice?
11:01:42 [libby_]
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11:02:16 [christian]
JL: Create an API that can be used as an input, and reviewed by W3C groups, jointly working between the groups to arrive at an API.
11:02:28 [christian]
Next presentation
11:02:38 [christian]
Topic: Home Networking
11:02:50 [christian]
Presenter: Clarke Stevens (CableLabs)
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11:04:05 [christian]
[Slide on web & North american cable TV]
11:04:37 [christian]
... CableLabs is formed to bring together several cable companies to form common standards
11:04:46 [francois]
Topic: Home networking, by Clarke Stevens (CableLabs)
11:05:06 [francois]
s/Topic: Home networking, by Clarke Stevens (CableLabs)//
11:05:36 [francois]
s/Topic: Home Networking/Topic: Home Networking, by Clarke Stevens (CableLabs)/
11:09:31 [takashi]
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11:09:50 [christian]
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11:10:03 [christian]
(scribe was disconnected, sorry)
11:10:11 [chaals_]
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11:10:38 [christian]
Trying to fill in gaps
11:10:53 [christian]
... Opened bug 11326 in HTML5 bug tracker
11:11:15 [christian]
... Now working on sample implementations to facilitate acceptance to specification
11:11:28 [christian]
(This is regarding DLNA API in javascript)
11:11:36 [christian]
[Slide on CableLabs prototype]
11:11:49 [danbri]
[ francois, I posted my slides at http://www.slideshare.net/danbri/apis-and-urls-for-social-tv ... apologies for proprietary formats, will blog some HTML summary ]
11:12:46 [christian]
... Prototype based on WebKit and open source UPnP stack (CyberGarage), exposed functionality through javascript from WebIDL definitions
11:13:12 [christian]
... Create a UPnP control point in javascript / HTML. Locate renderers and servers
11:13:39 [christian]
question: JL: You have provided a UPnP framework, not services?
11:14:17 [christian]
CS: Right, our approach has not been very comprehensive, interested in working with other partners to provide a more complete implementation
11:14:30 [christian]
[Slide with prototype UI]
11:14:40 [francois]
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11:14:42 [dcorvoysier]
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11:14:55 [christian]
... Select your content, and your renderer, and you can control playback through the UI
11:15:01 [christian]
[Slide on next steps]
11:15:15 [christian]
... Work with browser vendors to implement prototypes
11:15:39 [christian]
... CableLabs to provide as much information as possible to help other implementers
11:15:56 [christian]
... Also interested in generalizing to other home networking protocols, like Bonjour
11:16:32 [christian]
... Big concern is security, current interfaces do not have a sufficient security model
11:16:59 [christian]
... Similar issues that apply to geolocation and device API
11:17:23 [christian]
... "Opt-in" model
11:17:31 [christian]
[Informal poll slide]
11:17:55 [christian]
... Raise of hands - how many would support an HTML5 JS API for selecting multiple A/V tracks
11:18:15 [christian]
... Raise of hands - how many would support a W3C JS API for local device discovery?
11:18:27 [christian]
Both questions seemed about 1/3
11:19:04 [christian]
question: CMN: Have you looked at Opera Unite? Allows you to serve media from a local server in the browser
11:19:21 [christian]
http://www.opera.com/unite/
11:19:41 [christian]
CS: Not familiar with that technology, sounds like it might be related
11:20:04 [christian]
CMN: About raise-of-hands, how many people would actually *oppose* ?
11:20:51 [kaz]
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11:20:57 [christian]
question: You keep mentioning a UPnP API based on DLNA, can be done compatible but independent of underlying protocol. Concerns about DLNA being freely available
11:21:24 [marie]
s/question:/françois daoust:
11:21:33 [christian]
CS: Not aware of the exact license
11:22:02 [christian]
question ??: BONDI includes DLNA API, is your API in alignment with that?
11:22:25 [MattH]
[ DLNA certification process/costs: https://certification.dlna.org/test-lab.html ]
11:22:32 [christian]
CS: Only in the sense that they are both based on DLNA, otherwise not. Open to collaborations with other interested parties to converge specs
11:22:49 [kaz]
s/question ??:/dong-young:/
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11:25:18 [christian]
MH: I contributed the BONDI API when it was alive. BONDI is kind of dead, moved to WAC, all API:s are contributed to DAAP in W3C. Discussion on CEA-2014-B which has defined a DLNA interface.
11:25:41 [christian]
CS: Events have already overtaken CEA-2014-B
11:26:52 [christian]
JonPiesing: Privacy concerns around the DLNA API in JS. How to design such an interface with an opt-in mechanism which doesn't make the user think that the UI is broken
11:27:41 [christian]
JP: Especially difficult for TV viewers. Might be OK in an environment in subscription situation or similar, but otherwise difficult to design the interface
11:27:49 [Marcin]
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11:28:08 [Marcin]
DAP thread re DLNA: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-device-apis/2011Feb/0023.html
11:28:21 [christian]
MV: CEA-2014-B would need to be contributed to the W3C, until then W3C should work on one of its own
11:28:31 [chaals_]
[/me hears an echo from Jon of what Danbri said. People aren't hoping that watching TV becomes more like using a computer... at least in terms of UX]
11:29:00 [christian]
MV: The javascript API can be described in such a way that it does not need to bring in any DLNA IP
11:29:20 [christian]
MV: Up to implementers to decide if it uses Bonjour or DLNA
11:29:51 [Marcin]
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11:30:09 [christian]
MW: Exposing services can mean different things, how to expose them in a sufficiently agnostic way? Not straightforward on how these interfaces should be designed
11:30:20 [mcf]
s/MV/Marck Vickers
11:30:22 [christian]
CS: Gateway devices is one approach
11:30:34 [mcf]
s/MW/Mark Watson
11:32:58 [christian]
JL: What is really the scope of the IG?
11:33:46 [christian]
CMN: W3C is a lot of different WGs, meet in different ways, work in different ways. Members need to learn how to work inside them. The IG is neutral enough to do this, but it is not the place where requirements will be written.
11:34:02 [christian]
Members of IG need to dive into the working groups and do the work
11:34:40 [christian]
CMN: It is important to take those next steps and etner the working groups, this is where the actual work will get done
11:34:49 [christian]
MV: What is the group for this (DLNA) kind of discussion?
11:34:52 [christian]
CMN: DAAP
11:35:13 [christian]
CMN: The right group and right time, and it needs people to get involved
11:35:14 [francois]
s/DAAP/DAP
11:35:42 [christian]
GP: The point of the IG is to act as a starting point
11:36:37 [christian]
MH: The DAP is now rechartering, if there is momentum hear today, it would be good to get input from people here and respond to Robins mail. This is a good time.
11:37:01 [christian]
I: Is the DAP specific to mobile devices or can apply to TV and PC:s?
11:37:19 [francois]
-> http://www.w3.org/2009/dap/ Device APIs and Policy Working Group
11:37:32 [christian]
MH: Originated from mobile world - now moving focus to other devices
11:37:40 [christian]
MH: Somebody has to contribute from
11:37:49 [christian]
MH: to the WG
11:38:09 [dewa]
s/I:/Tatsuya Igarashi:/
11:38:29 [christian]
CMN: Opera is a browser manufacturer in the DAP group, in our interest to make sure it works for all use-cases
11:38:53 [christian]
CMN: And we do think it is worth supporting
11:40:03 [christian]
TI: No strong opinion on who works on API, what about providing a framework for local applications, web applications group may be relevant
11:41:01 [christian]
Current DAP is not exclusively for mobile phones, API:s are general enough to be used everywhere including TV
11:41:17 [christian]
[Break for lunch]
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13:03:44 [jcdufourd]
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13:04:47 [francois]
Topic: Universal Design Process, by Mark Magennis (NCBI)
13:04:50 [francois]
scribe: francois
13:05:10 [francois]
mark: National Centre for Inclusive Technology.
13:05:31 [haruo]
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13:05:38 [francois]
... I felt like an elephant when I came here. What am I doing here?
13:05:44 [libby]
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13:05:49 [francois]
... I'm a Web and TV accessibility person.
13:06:06 [osamu]
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13:06:12 [shoko]
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13:06:23 [francois]
... There is a need for inclusive Web and TV services. Lots of presentation have mention users. Some have mentioned accessibility.
13:06:32 [giuseppe]
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13:06:34 [takashi]
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13:06:47 [francois]
... I'm particularly interested in disabilities and aging.
13:06:52 [mcf]
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13:07:14 [francois]
... 1 in 6 person in EU has a disability for some broad definition by the EU
13:07:32 [francois]
... From the UN, 1 in 5 will be over 60 by 2050.
13:07:47 [Iraj]
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13:08:05 [francois]
... GUI are complex, and they are also being forced into people that are not Internet users to start with, whether they want it or not.
13:08:12 [Iraj]
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13:08:38 [francois]
... [video demo of a smarttalk TV that reads EPG]
13:09:47 [francois]
... other examples will be e.g. contrast-related.
13:10:59 [francois]
... Access services require captions. Also audio description. Audio description gives you an oral description of a scene for people who cannot see.
13:11:26 [francois]
... [video demo of oral description]
13:11:44 [francois]
... [lots of blood seen on screen!]
13:13:46 [francois]
... Accessible media player is key as well.
13:14:45 [fhiroshi]
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13:15:12 [yosuke]
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13:15:24 [francois]
... The goal is to do a 10 foot inclusive user interface, using a remote control.
13:16:06 [Kiyoshi]
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13:16:12 [francois]
... There is some regulatory pressure. In the US, the 21st Century Communications and Video Accessibility Act mandate broadcasters to produce audio description for video content.
13:16:35 [francois]
... In the EC, the commission has plans for a generic e-accessibility legislation.
13:16:49 [francois]
... A lot of that is pushed by the UN convention on the rights of persons with disabilities.
13:17:02 [francois]
... You can expect more regulatory pressure.
13:17:15 [francois]
... On the Web, the big spec is WCAG 2.0.
13:17:33 [francois]
... It's being adopted by national laws in some countries.
13:17:47 [francois]
... It's technology independent so it can be applied to TV as well.
13:19:06 [francois]
... On TV, you have lots of other standards, by ETSI for DVB access service delivery, ITC, IEC (text-to-speech for DTV receivers linked to the first demo I showed), and then the UK DTG D-Book addresses stuff such as remote controls.
13:20:10 [francois]
... My suggestion here is to take all these existing standards and requirements and bring them together.
13:20:21 [nord_c]
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13:20:46 [francois]
... All these organizations need to talk to each other to ensure that we create an inclusive platform.
13:21:13 [francois]
... I'm here to learn than to tell you anything.
13:21:16 [danbri]
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13:22:17 [francois]
kaz: I'm also involved in voice activities in W3C. There is some standardization work on speech going on.
13:22:44 [francois]
... Accessibility is in scope of the charter of the newly launched Web and TV IG.
13:23:04 [francois]
... The TV IG will also work with these groups within W3C and external groups.
13:23:09 [jeff_]
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13:23:18 [francois]
... I quite agree about the importance of speech-to-text for TV.
13:23:38 [francois]
... What about using speech as input in next-generation TV?
13:23:49 [francois]
mark: that's the one area I'm least familiar with.
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13:25:42 [francois]
philipp: on the learning part, we have a whole division that takes care of accessibility. One thing that this division does is reviewing all W3C specs that come out of other working groups.
13:25:55 [francois]
... These issues are quite well represented in W3C.
13:26:24 [francois]
mark: thanks for mentioning it. I was not aware of that.
13:26:28 [francois]
Topic: GUIDE - Adaptive User Interfaces for Accessible Hybrid TV Applications, by Christoph Jung (Fraunhofer-IGD)
13:27:58 [francois]
christoph: a brief overview of what we do in the GUIDE project. Specific focus on elderly users
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13:28:51 [francois]
... we need projects like GUIDE because of the growing elderly society, and there are a number of impairments that need to be taken into account.
13:29:15 [francois]
... At the same time, user interface technology, speech recognition, touch interfaces, etc.
13:29:25 [francois]
... Third aspect is content providers.
13:29:57 [francois]
... Some major gaps we currently have to face: we perceive a huge lack of awareness and acceptance of accessibility in the industry.
13:30:23 [francois]
... It is time consuming and costly to design things with user involvement.
13:30:52 [francois]
... The APIs are there, the guidelines are there but may need to be completed with specific Web and TV requirements
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13:32:03 [francois]
... GUIDE can help because it replaces user-centric with improvements to accessibility guidelines, adaptive user interfaces, and tools to simulate user environment.
13:34:00 [francois]
... At design time, we want to provide tools that simulate things such as visual impairment, or the time it takes for a user to go from one button to another one.
13:34:35 [francois]
... The second thing that supports Web developers is the guidelines handbook.
13:35:19 [francois]
... On first usage, we collect users data. Once we have collected their data and limitations, we can adapt their experience real time.
13:36:38 [francois]
... Considering Web technology we use in GUIDE: set-top box by Technicolor, Opera browser.
13:36:58 [francois]
... We want to seamlessly integrate in existing user interfaces.
13:37:19 [francois]
... We're looking into markup languages to describe the UI. Wai-ARIA is being considered.
13:37:43 [francois]
... We have a few applications for this concept: video conferencing, home automation, content access...
13:38:18 [francois]
... We're into standardization. We carefully observe the developments in HbbTV and HTML5 here.
13:38:56 [francois]
... We're also really active in the VUMS cluster in EU.
13:40:26 [francois]
... Conclusion: we have to disseminate accessibility in the industry. We need progress on standards.
13:40:49 [francois]
... We may need to define more precisely the roles and responsibilities of browsers, APIs, UIs, assistive technologies.
13:41:20 [francois]
... For application, we need to identify and specify future application scenarios to extract requirements.
13:41:45 [francois]
... I think we can also leverage adaptive accessibility in non-accessible technology.
13:42:30 [francois]
... Research-wise, we need smarter accessibility, adapted to users. We'd like to automate the simulation process.
13:42:59 [francois]
... Use of the cloud can be very helpful.
13:43:57 [francois]
chaals: how many people know how to get accessibility of their products checked?
13:44:07 [francois]
... [counting: 6 people in the room]
13:44:20 [francois]
... How many people have an idea of the level of accessibility of their product.
13:44:31 [francois]
... A couple, I see. That's good.
13:44:58 [francois]
... We saw in the Tokyo workshop that broadcasters and TV manufacturers do very good stuff on accessibility.
13:45:45 [francois]
... W3C has a way to review accessibility. It may not go well when disjoint groups of people come with different angle.
13:46:02 [francois]
... Especially when accessibility comes late in the game and report problems with specs.
13:46:22 [francois]
... There has been precedent in the W3C with tough situations.
13:46:40 [francois]
... Please think of accessibility as a requirement at the very beginning.
13:46:51 [francois]
... Otherwise it will bite you in the end.
13:47:12 [francois]
... One of the things we need to look about in the Web and TV IG is what we can do in that field.
13:47:42 [francois]
... the amount of captioning in TV is probably way above what exists on the Web today.
13:48:16 [francois]
... This is more advertisement to listening to these guys, and that people like them or me will be looking into such considerations.
13:49:04 [francois]
christoph: we had a meeting on Monday. We discussed how to disseminate accessibility. Regulation is one way.
13:49:16 [francois]
... But it also has to bring something to the industries.
13:49:32 [francois]
... If you provide services to elderly people, for instance, you can provide services to more people.
13:50:22 [francois]
mark: quite often, what comes out from companies is that they don't see a business case, at least no improvement of business case.
13:50:56 [francois]
... There is a lack of hard data to highlight the cost vs. benefits of going down the accessibility route.
13:51:34 [francois]
christoph: Shadi mentioned on Monday that there is a WAI page that describes success stories.
13:51:55 [chaals]
[a reason for not generating the hard data is that it's quite hard to do the necessary research (it's hard to get data on the business case fo documenting the business case...)]
13:52:32 [francois]
Comment in the room: User accessibility is going to be key for the future.
13:53:00 [francois]
... I would like to see multimodal interfaces in the future. I don't understand why it's so difficult to see the business opportunities.
13:53:30 [francois]
MarkVickers: most of the accessibility features are useful for the whole customer base.
13:53:40 [francois]
... Simple example is watching a video with the sound down.
13:54:15 [francois]
christoph: that's a point I raised, accessibility is not limited to people with disabilities.
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13:54:26 [francois]
danbri: agree with the last comment.
13:55:09 [francois]
... If we could make a working group in the Web and TV area, it would be good to have accessibility as a starting point.
13:55:32 [francois]
... Working group on APIs for second-screen scenarios with accessibility, is that a good priority for you?
13:55:57 [francois]
christoph: yes, that's one way to do it. People need to be more involved in W3C.
13:56:38 [francois]
mark: not familiar with W3C work. Accessibility is horizontal stuff.
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13:57:01 [francois]
... They need to be integrated into the whole thing.
13:57:41 [francois]
chaals: in the good days, W3C members send people to work on these matters, and take requirements into account. On the bad days, some groups do not even think about it.
13:58:21 [francois]
... Having people available is difficult. Not everyone in the world is an expert in accessibility, and it's hard to find the right people.
13:58:57 [francois]
... My expectations if we were to work on remote control API, there is experience around, as it's been done a decade away.
14:00:52 [francois]
GeorgeWright: accessibility in TV has been incredibly better than on the Web. Accessible is tied to usability. The TV industry has got it somehow right.
14:02:01 [chaals]
[agree that in many ways the TV industry has actually done a good job - I hope we bring all the best of that into the Web (not just the Web on TV) ]
14:02:05 [francois]
MattHammond: accessibility targets other usage contexts.
14:02:33 [chaals]
s/good job/better job than the web at large/
14:07:08 [francois]
yosuke: [introducing the session on profiling/testing]
14:07:55 [olivier]
ScribeNick: olivier
14:08:00 [francois]
Topic: Profiling, testing, certification, by Narm Gadiraju (Intel)
14:09:48 [olivier]
NG: need a TV profile - a set of HTML5, CSS features to create a compelling TV user experience
14:10:15 [haruo]
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14:10:21 [olivier]
... today's specs are strongly focusing on PC, smartphones
14:10:57 [olivier]
... which has specific user input devices (keyboard and mouse, etc) and a specific mindset
14:11:43 [olivier]
... an experience with pop up windows and scrolling ads may be expected, or acceptable, when using a web browser on such devices
14:11:55 [olivier]
... this may not be true in the 10ft TV experience
14:12:05 [olivier]
... for one thing, there is often more than a single user
14:12:16 [olivier]
... hence a UI challenge
14:13:21 [pk]
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14:13:31 [olivier]
NG: service and content providers also come with UI requirements
14:13:56 [olivier]
NG: new applications bring new requirements.
14:14:13 [chaals]
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14:15:04 [olivier]
... premium content, social interaction
14:15:19 [olivier]
... also the fact that content can be present / used on several devices
14:15:46 [osamu]
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14:16:01 [olivier]
NG: mentions the confusion about the HTML5 term. Is it just HTML or HTML5, CSS, etc
14:16:33 [olivier]
... note there are other standard bodies implementing (or refering to) HTML specs
14:16:48 [olivier]
NG: now we have established need for a profile, let's talk about testing
14:17:11 [olivier]
... we need a test suite developed to check that the profile is suitable for the intent we have dertemined
14:17:43 [olivier]
... the test development need to happen with the development of the profile, with members contributing tests
14:18:08 [olivier]
... the test suite and features can be debugged during the TV profile development
14:18:25 [olivier]
... ensure maturity of the test suite, then it can be used as a basis for certification
14:18:47 [olivier]
NG: certification brings benefits to device vendors and other interested parties
14:18:58 [kaz_]
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14:19:12 [olivier]
... device vendors can advertise the enhanced value of their offering
14:19:31 [olivier]
... as a user, too, I can be more confident knowing that a device has been certified
14:19:52 [olivier]
... and I can confidently assume that the web applications of my choice will run on the device
14:20:20 [olivier]
... software developers too know they can develop for the platform
14:20:43 [olivier]
... finally, service providers would be able to develop services for several TV platforms and app stores
14:21:18 [olivier]
NG: certification does comes with challenges. cost and complexity of developing a compliance program are not trivial
14:21:28 [olivier]
... additional overhead
14:21:40 [olivier]
... my recommendation would be to keep the certification simple.
14:21:45 [olivier]
... e.g. through self-certification
14:22:21 [olivier]
... the tests could be made available to all, device vendors could then use the test suite for devices under test
14:22:30 [olivier]
... and submit test results for approval
14:22:47 [olivier]
NG: [end presentation]
14:22:57 [olivier]
[Q&A begins]
14:23:43 [olivier]
chaals: how do you know that web applications will actually follow the specs, in the context of the consumer being "confident that devices will run applications of their choice"?
14:24:16 [olivier]
NG: applications may not come directly from the TV, thinking more they could come from an app store or service provider
14:24:24 [olivier]
... (hence adding some form of control)
14:24:31 [olivier]
... but no guarantee
14:25:02 [olivier]
chaals: [questioning whether consumers actually care about certification]
14:25:41 [olivier]
... (anecdotal) evidence that developers don't get it right - the web is not made of stuff you could certify
14:25:51 [olivier]
... mismatch with a certified/certifiable platform
14:26:06 [olivier]
NG: question the assumption that the platform itself is not certifiable
14:26:13 [olivier]
[scribe missed part of answer]
14:26:35 [olivier]
James: there is some value for developer to know that the plaform may be certified
14:27:13 [olivier]
?1: is there some research at intel in the area of profiling or tests?
14:27:28 [olivier]
NG: our experience is mostly through our work in upnp and dnla
14:27:44 [chaals]
[And after Aple came along and ignored all certification but insisted everything went through *their* certification, Android came and built a market that doesn't bother testing. And outsold Apple as a platform]
14:27:53 [olivier]
... upnp has similar self-certification
14:28:28 [chaals]
[Not questioning the value of test suites, BTW - agree that they help us all]
14:29:04 [olivier]
Philipp Hoschka: say more about how you know self certification works?
14:29:22 [olivier]
NG: experience with upnp. Don't have the numbers here but a lot of upnp devices certified
14:29:28 [olivier]
... can dig
14:29:36 [olivier]
PH: thank you, would be useful
14:30:09 [olivier]
Topic: Stable profile in retail TV products, by Jon Piesing (Philips)
14:30:37 [olivier]
JP: "retail TV products and the need for a stable profile of web technologies"
14:30:48 [francois]
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14:31:06 [olivier]
JP: people need to understand the range of business models
14:31:25 [olivier]
... vertical pay TV, horizontal pay TV, diagonal models
14:31:25 [chaals]
[I *think* that Narm was questioning my assertion that the vast majority of web applications would not pass certification, but I could have misinterpreted]
14:32:01 [olivier]
... some subscription based, other not. many variations
14:32:12 [olivier]
... all valid, all have different requirements
14:32:21 [chaals]
s/stuff you could certify/stuff you could certify so dealing with stuff that is correctly done is not enessarily of any practical value
14:32:28 [olivier]
JP: will focus on horizontal model
14:32:37 [olivier]
... specificity is that there is no network maker in control
14:32:59 [olivier]
... and manufacturers get income when consumers buy device
14:33:13 [olivier]
... and the consumer owns the device
14:33:25 [olivier]
... with no contract between consumer and service providers
14:33:38 [chaals]
[I Should have been more explicit. The impliction is that it may be more important to support arket-leading apps like google, farmville, facebook (and mid-level stuff like banks) than it is to support correctly-written content - if it has little market appeal]
14:33:43 [olivier]
JP: it has a major impact on software updates
14:34:09 [olivier]
... updates have a cost - payment to suppliers, integration, testing, and distribution
14:34:29 [olivier]
... typically, this means that there will only be small amount of software updates, critical ones
14:34:35 [olivier]
... this is not unique to TV
14:34:55 [olivier]
... gives the example of Android tablets system updates
14:35:09 [olivier]
... not a lot of updates coming once you buy a device
14:35:16 [olivier]
JP: this means we need very stable specs
14:35:37 [olivier]
... because if the spec changes, today's sold device is tomorow's legacy problem
14:36:31 [olivier]
... examples of such issues and hard choices: HTML5, Widgets, UK DTG CTV specs - CSS3, Web notifications
14:36:55 [olivier]
JP: there's no right answer
14:37:04 [olivier]
... need to stress key aspects
14:37:21 [olivier]
... test pages, streams and files
14:37:56 [olivier]
... downstream specs making their own test suites would be a waste of effort, and a problem for implementors
14:38:43 [olivier]
JP: most relevant for HTML5 (areas which differ from HTML4), CSS2D and 3D
14:39:17 [olivier]
... question of minimal performance whenever working with graphics
14:39:45 [olivier]
JP: interesting to explore integration of existing W3C tests into future framework
14:39:53 [olivier]
JP: suggestions
14:40:26 [olivier]
JP: organisations will be making (stable) selections from newer W3C specs for TV and related markets
14:40:41 [olivier]
... should explore cooperation on test materials
14:41:24 [olivier]
... note a lot of work on API already done by OIPF
14:41:32 [olivier]
[talk ends]
14:41:36 [olivier]
[Q&A starts]
14:41:50 [dewa]
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14:42:04 [olivier]
Martin Haan (sp?), european commission
14:42:51 [olivier]
MH: we are thinking about whether it makes sense to fund open test bed for webtv
14:43:14 [olivier]
... asking the audience
14:43:39 [olivier]
[no feedback from the audience]
14:45:29 [chaals]
JL: So if someone takes e.g. HTML5 video, from a given working draft, that means that W3C should becareful about changing that bit afterwards.
14:45:31 [olivier]
[question was about dependency and cooperation between standard bodies]
14:45:54 [olivier]
JP: standard bodies have been cooperating and acting on issues in spec references for a long time. Just talk together
14:46:35 [olivier]
NG: mentions work done at DLNA, members of which will be bringing it to the table at some point
14:47:17 [olivier]
chaals: liaison between orgs happens through mail/conversation, not documents
14:47:47 [olivier]
... good question on whether OIPF docs are worth bringing to w3c. should be worthwhile and not too painful
14:48:27 [olivier]
?2: testing is as important as spec, yes; not sure it is role of W3C to take care of certification
14:48:46 [olivier]
s/?2/Giuseppe Pascale/
14:49:24 [olivier]
chaals: would be happier if EU funded several test efforts, than one big official one
14:50:05 [olivier]
MH: european projects are only ever started based on needs from constituency
14:50:37 [fhiroshi]
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14:50:58 [olivier]
NG: notes that MH didn't leave the audience a lot of time to respond. too early to decide whether there is or not a demand for test framework at EU level
14:51:51 [olivier]
Jeff Jaffe, W3C: agree test is important - and hard. Let's get help where we can find it. How to use that help is the right question, not just a straw poll
14:52:10 [olivier]
?3: the first thing would probably be to have W3C scope that work
14:52:22 [olivier]
... then decide whether to have centralised effort, distributed, etc
14:52:25 [francois]
s/?3/MarkVickers
14:52:32 [olivier]
... we first need to know what the effort will be
14:53:36 [olivier]
Clarke Stevens: what about other industries, like PC industry, are they pushing for certification
14:54:02 [olivier]
Jeff: want to offer clarification on html5 testing effort
14:54:11 [olivier]
... no doubt that there is a need for robust test suite
14:54:21 [olivier]
... announced work at meeting in november
14:54:40 [olivier]
... starting to get test cases from the community, with browser vendors already contributing
14:54:57 [chaals]
[There is a push for more and better tests... but not for certification]
14:55:17 [olivier]
[Q&A ends]
14:55:44 [olivier]
[short break]
14:55:48 [chaals]
[test suites are living and dynamic so can update in the rhythm of web technology development... certification tends to be less flexible]
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15:05:11 [kunio]
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15:16:43 [fhiroshi]
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15:17:14 [francois]
Topic: Priorities from TV makers point of view, by HyeonJee Lee (LG Electronics)
15:17:29 [haruo]
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15:18:09 [francois]
scribe: fd
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15:18:25 [francois]
hj: [summarizes differences between pc and tv
15:18:34 [francois]
i/scribe: fd/scribenick: francois/
15:19:17 [francois]
... The various standard bodies provide specifications and extensions for TV.
15:19:42 [francois]
... Meanwhile, smart phones, new devices are getting on TV.
15:20:01 [francois]
... So now, we are discussing the Web and TV in W3C.
15:20:09 [tomokazu]
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15:20:18 [francois]
... we'd like to make the discussion profitable for our customers.
15:20:35 [dewa]
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15:20:37 [marie]
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15:20:51 [francois]
... From the user's point of view, applications seem to be almost the same.
15:21:04 [osamu]
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15:21:10 [francois]
... But content providers and TV makers need to support multiple solutions. That's a huge waste of time.
15:21:18 [francois]
... Also, TV is a constrained device.
15:21:29 [francois]
... So, TV makers want to have a single solution.
15:21:49 [francois]
... The W3C is the safest place to have baseline platform because the patent policy is clear and RF.
15:22:24 [francois]
... We think the success of this activity is not related to the technical expertise. The most important criterion is the time to market.
15:22:51 [francois]
... First thing we should try to do find a common baseline.
15:23:25 [francois]
... First priority: video tag extensions for HTTP adaptive streaming and DRM.
15:23:59 [francois]
... If we are successful to have the baseline of that technology, then the integration will be beneficial to everyone.
15:24:23 [francois]
... To meet our schedule, I'd like to propose a task force within Web and TV IG.
15:25:08 [francois]
... Second priority: multi-screen interaction with new Javascript APIs.
15:25:21 [francois]
... Task force in the IG or a WG.
15:26:10 [francois]
... Third priority: TV profiling. That's a controversal issue. I think we should have a task force within Web and TV IG.
15:26:34 [francois]
... Possibly give some initial input by end of March.
15:26:56 [francois]
... Fourth priority: security considerations of Web technologies.
15:27:05 [francois]
... TV is the most stable device at home.
15:27:50 [francois]
... malicious code could exploit security holes.
15:28:20 [francois]
... Fifth priority: Make a good developer guide for content providers.
15:28:47 [francois]
... 16:9 expected ratio, navigation rules of TV remote controllers, etc.
15:29:00 [francois]
... To be done later on in the IG.
15:29:21 [francois]
... We hope that this can all be done in a 1 to 2 year time frame.
15:29:37 [francois]
... If we lose this timeframe, we cannot prevent chaos.
15:29:51 [francois]
... As TV makers, we will actively commit to these activities.
15:31:47 [davy]
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15:32:27 [kaz_]
yosuke: comment on task forces within the Web and TV IG
15:32:52 [kaz_]
... would like to hear from people which kind of TFs should be included in the IG
15:33:18 [chaals]
scribe: Chaals
15:33:36 [chaals]
GP: Jut to be clear, the presentation was to provoke discussion ...
15:33:55 [kaz_]
s/Jut/Just/
15:34:08 [chaals]
JW?: Would this be used to provide broadcast stuff, or just back end stuff.
15:34:28 [chaals]
Mark: Will be used for mainstream - all content
15:34:42 [chaals]
FD: Here we want to assess the level of interest about different topics.
15:35:16 [chaals]
FD explains the differences between working and interest groups, and what they can do.
15:35:27 [chaals]
FD: Important basic requirement is people to do the work.
15:36:28 [chaals]
... there are some ideas for task forces within the IG, there may be things we just don't act on, or we could create/recharter working group(s) if there are people to drive the work.
15:36:50 [chaals]
... Not that making a group requires people to be there, and some to drive the work of scoping.creating etc, writing the charter.
15:37:16 [chaals]
Topic: HTTP Adaptive Streaming
15:37:33 [chaals]
FD: IG can check on getting RF commitments - making a working group would just lose time.
15:37:47 [chaals]
... intergrating in HTML could require a new WG.
15:38:23 [chaals]
CMN: Why create a new Working Group to integrate stuff in HTML, given there is na existing one?
15:38:43 [kaz_]
s/there is na/there is an/
15:38:43 [chaals]
FD: If we can do it without touching the HTML5 spec that's better because that group has a clear roadmap.
15:39:28 [chaals]
MW: Regarding royalty free DASH it needs to be lear that it is the companies that we have to ask, not the SDOs. It would be valuable to send something from this meeting, to the 3GPP meeting next week.
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15:39:45 [chaals]
FD: Any support
15:39:56 [chaals]
CMN: Yes. SUpport that it is a good idea.
15:40:14 [kaz_]
s/SUpport/Support/
15:41:27 [chaals]
CMN Moves that this meeting send a formal request to 3GPP meeting requesting that IPR holders follow Microsoft in providing a royalty-free license to essential IPR.
15:41:34 [chaals]
Danbri seconded.
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15:41:43 [chaals]
[Strong support]
15:42:05 [chaals]
??: Warning that it is unlikely to be a resounding yes, since it is in the market already...
15:42:21 [chaals]
... DVB members will have questions back, so the discussion will go on.
15:43:53 [chaals]
... what is exactly the message to go there, what shape does the ongoing discussion take. Please send me a message I can broadcast to the DVB membership to help bring the fence down.
15:44:05 [chaals]
FD / GP: Message will be outcome of this meeting.
15:44:20 [chaals]
AA: What are your formal cooperation methods?
15:44:53 [chaals]
Action FD to follow up with the request on how to do liaison
15:45:15 [chaals]
JJ: Appreciate the metaphor of bringing down a wall in Berlin ;)
15:45:34 [chaals]
... suggest that when we write up the request that we amned the motion to be clear that it is for the web use case.
15:45:54 [chaals]
s/Strong support/Strong support, a couple of votes against/
15:46:15 [chaals]
MV: Please track liaisons we should follow - DLNA as well as DVB
15:46:28 [jeff]
s/amned/amend
15:46:30 [chaals]
GP: Good that people want a clear view of how the proces works.
15:47:16 [chaals]
FD: Official statement has to come from the IG. This is a workshop minus a couple of participants.
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15:49:14 [chaals]
MarkW: We should be clear that we don't expect to get back a statement from everybody. There will be a judgement call to make at some time. I thikn it is important to be precise. So it is useful to identify the W3C-side contacts who can engage in a discussion of what this means.
15:50:01 [chaals]
Iraj: If the IG asks for this it will be more effective that the workshop answering.
15:50:13 [kaz_]
s/thikn/think/
15:50:45 [chaals]
GeorgeWright; We need synchronisation of media.
15:50:52 [chaals]
s/;/:
15:50:56 [chaals]
FD: In what form?
15:51:09 [chaals]
GW: Not sure, but it needs to be listed as an explicit requirement.
15:51:39 [chaals]
JCD: Sometimes the best solution for something wouldn't necessarily be an API, but some other support for...
15:52:34 [chaals]
FD: So the workshop can make a request, and the IG can make its own request later - please join the IG, because it relies on its members, and bring this to the IG.
15:53:08 [chaals]
FD: Not sure what we need to work on in content protrection. Common Encryption doesn't seem to fit. SUpport for key exchange can be done, seems to be a valuable item.
15:53:26 [chaals]
?4: Missing a liaison for the capacity to delay content-protected video.
15:53:27 [danbri]
[ wonder if everyone here knows how to join the IG ... http://www.w3.org/TV/#tvig needs a bit of update ... ]
15:53:36 [kaz_]
kaz: people can bring these ideas to the IG mailing list
15:53:49 [chaals]
s/delay/canplaytype()
15:54:51 [chaals]
?5: It is good to look at what people who are already using stuff from browser world actually do, when we are thinking about profiling.
15:54:51 [olivier]
s/?4/Olivier Thereaux
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15:55:21 [chaals]
FD: Not sure what next step in profiling is - think it is discussionin IG do figure out what we should be doing, reviewing what we already know, ...
15:55:29 [chaals]
... related, testing framework.
15:55:31 [danbri]
[ http://www.w3.org/2010/12/webrtc-charter.html "API functions for establishing direct peer-to-peer connections, including firewall/NAT traversal " relates to the Remotes / 2nd Screen / "Trick modes" proposal ]
15:55:43 [chaals]
?5: Think they are seperate topics.
15:55:59 [shoko]
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15:56:02 [chaals]
... all the acronyms are already using some form of web technoogy in their systems...
15:56:08 [MattH]
[ +1 danbri's observation ]
15:56:32 [chaals]
FD: Support for *
15:57:01 [chaals]
Olivier: You are missing things - you have play/pause/ff and there are far more things that people were demoing. Multi-device, multi-screen control and command would be better.
15:57:21 [chaals]
FD: If you generally think it needs to be merged into one exercise taht makes sense.
15:57:59 [chaals]
OT: Re DAP charter, it may be currently too limited to a single device - we are talking perhaps about DAP, RealTime and maybe something else.
15:58:20 [kaz_]
[ danbri, "how to join the group" is explained in the charter (http://www.w3.org/2010/09/webTVIGcharter.html), but yes, we can put it on the group page as well ]
15:58:28 [chaals]
FD: DAP charter is currently under discussion. Since TV is a device in a broader scope it seems relevant and timely to incorporate these requirements in the new charter.
15:58:37 [chaals]
straw polls for support of:
15:59:37 [chaals]
?6Sony: Why is DAP being rechartered?
15:59:44 [kaz_]
s/discussionin/discussion in/
15:59:55 [chaals]
FD: First, because their charter is about to expire. And being aware of taht we want to enlarge the participation.
16:00:49 [chaals]
DanBri: THink there is a strong case for remote control / second screen work. It isn't classic DAP, we haven't done the requirements gathering yet, and it requires more thinking than we can do in the time here.
16:01:27 [kaz_]
s/THink/Think/
16:01:27 [chaals]
Clarke: Trick modes, downloading content. Trying to figure what DAP is doing. Seems like it has been focused on cell-phone related apps.
16:01:41 [chaals]
wondering if this spread the scope too thin.
16:01:51 [chaals]
... if we add it.
16:02:02 [kaz_]
s/?6Sony:/Tatsuya Igarashi:/
16:02:25 [danbri]
danbri: and that there is a protocol aspect, nat traversal aspect, plus the specific domain modelling work for doing specific APIs. but first we need to get these devices to have a communications channel; if that involves NAT-traversal, see the RTC draft charter, which includes exactly that.
16:02:29 [chaals]
FD: Don't want to have a really broad scope. If we don;t want to see TV and mobile as verticals, we want to have device-agnostic stuff. The WG was created from mobile input, but looking at device-agnostic design.
16:02:47 [chaals]
SC: Strongly support that goal. Wonder if having different objectives for the API makes sense.
16:03:03 [chaals]
... on one hand, play content, do TV things, other objectives pretty far from that.
16:04:08 [danbri]
[...]
16:04:21 [danbri]
chaals: comparison of several groups (HTML, DAP, ...)
16:04:32 [danbri]
... I strongly agree, if DAP doesn't do device-agnostic stuff, ...
16:04:42 [danbri]
... this is about what we're trying to do, not how we're trying to do it
16:04:47 [danbri]
... it's important that this be the goal
16:04:54 [danbri]
... it may be we have sufficent for 2 groups
16:05:04 [danbri]
... not TV stuff, Mobile Stuff; it's not This Workshop ; DAP
16:05:27 [danbri]
... more like some DAP, some webapps, some from here might make sense in a new group, other leftovers might be redistributed
16:06:10 [chaals]
s/[...]/... if not a lot of commonality it makes sense to split groups perhaps
16:06:35 [chaals]
Unanimous support for trick modes, downloading, etc.
16:06:57 [chaals]
s/Unanimous/[Unanimous
16:07:51 [chaals]
[home networking has strong support but an explicit concern is privacy and security]
16:08:05 [chaals]
CMN: THink that is a clear and important concern.
16:08:33 [kaz_]
s/THink/Think/
16:08:40 [chaals]
JP: It's easy to find a solution that isn't very good but gets to market quickly, because doing the right thing takes too long.
16:08:56 [chaals]
Danbri: Seems like you are saying we might do something bad, so let's not do anything.
16:09:16 [chaals]
JP: This has been addressed a number of times in a number of places without getting answers so far. It may not be soluble.
16:09:38 [chaals]
PH: This is a similar issue to what is being discussed in areas DAP is already working on - privacy, security, etc.
16:09:38 [danbri]
[ I suspect we're talking past each other, because the 'proposal' is simply the text "Support for home networking" ]
16:09:50 [chaals]
... think the issue is understood (if not the solution)
16:10:04 [chaals]
JP: Getting agreement from a user on a smartphone is different from getting agreement on a TV.
16:10:43 [chaals]
FD: Support for multi-track (issue-152)
16:10:45 [fhiroshi_]
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16:11:24 [fhiroshi]
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16:11:34 [chaals]
Jeroen: Multi-track is part of adaptive streaming, if you put adaptive streaming you will have HTML.
16:12:00 [chaals]
... multi-track. It's probably also tied intimately to content protection as a work item.
16:12:55 [chaals]
MarkV: Could be done. In my understanding of teh current HTML process there is a window of this month that will allow putting multi-track, but no existing window to allow adaptive streaming. SO think we should be pushing at least multi-track now ...
16:12:55 [dewa]
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16:13:18 [chaals]
... adaptive streaming can be done seperately if necessary.
16:14:14 [chaals]
... JW: Proposal currently being worked on is about text tracks. Not convinced that auio will be in browsers before adaptive streaming -think not in all browsers, anyway.
16:14:47 [chaals]
MarkW: Proposal posted yesterday in accessibility area has a deadline of 21 Feb before going to the HTML group. That is one item that it seems like it is progressing and could progress quickly.
16:15:54 [chaals]
... there are a couple of others, and a discussion about whether putting a resource manifest in the src attribute could be done quickly and would be beneficial.
16:17:31 [chaals]
Yosuke: We are looking for consensus on the result of this workshop. THis is a global workshop, but not representative.
16:17:57 [chaals]
... IG has public mailing list, and results of this workshop will go there.
16:18:26 [chaals]
... At Tokyo workshop we voted on topics raised, and in summary there were high-priority items.
16:19:02 [chaals]
... We should be thinking here in the same way - check results of that workshop and this group, get consensus on the tasks and priority
16:19:53 [chaals]
FD: Yes. This is stuff to take to the IG... there is a possibility to move some things on a fast pace linked to existing standards work.
16:20:16 [chaals]
GP: There is no reality to su asking for things in priority, the real priority will depend on contributions.
16:20:17 [kaz_]
s/THis/This/
16:20:40 [chaals]
I don't think it is as important to reach an absolute consensus on what is important, we can see from how much work gets done.
16:20:56 [chaals]
FD: On these items, are there people ready to commit time?
16:21:10 [chaals]
Olivier Thereaux and DAnbri didn't do military service
16:21:23 [chaals]
s/didn't do military service/volunteer
16:21:39 [chaals]
MarkW: wondering where secure device ID goes.
16:22:18 [chaals]
... volunteers to do work.
16:22:53 [danbri]
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16:23:23 [yosuke]
yosuke: Please a little bet be careful about that what we are doing here is just making a consensus with the participants in Berlin workshop.
16:23:32 [yosuke]
s/bet/bit/
16:23:34 [danbri]
[ re charter drafts, people should circulate them in the IG, or with W3C team, ... or whatever they prefer ? ]
16:24:17 [chaals]
Jeroen: You wanted something like "get my ID"?
16:24:31 [chaals]
MarkW: Yes. Privacy, obviously, is an issue ...
16:24:50 [chaals]
Jeroen: You have a lot of information about the user...
16:25:27 [chaals]
MarkW: It is important to make sure IDs don't track across domains. The question is whether we should not even strat, or should start and include the security provisions as a requirement of the work.
16:25:40 [chaals]
Jeroen: Seems like you might want to turn off a user.
16:25:53 [chaals]
MarkW: I may block access to my service...
16:26:52 [chaals]
?A: This stuff has strong legal implications, and is very complicated compared to e.g. geolocation.
16:26:53 [yosuke]
yosuke: Because workshops are inevitably regionally flavored event. So we'd better treat these results as a good input to the discussion in the IG.
16:27:53 [chaals]
MarkW: Those concerns exist whether you use a standard or not, so the fact (agreed) that this group is not competent to solve them all doesn't affect whether it is done with a standardised technology.
16:28:11 [chaals]
FD: Real Time communication group is starting at W3C
16:28:41 [chaals]
MV: THink this has direct overlap with the home network question - and it should therefore be done there.
16:29:59 [chaals]
?F: We have broadcasters... HTTP adaptive streaming doesn't cover all use cases. Support for multi-cast over broadcasting/networks would be important
16:30:12 [yosuke]
And I'm slightly anxious about the fact that in this wrap-up session, the definition of the scope of each topic on the screen seems ambiguous. That's another reason we'd better deal with those item in the IG.
16:30:28 [chaals]
FD: Since we didn't discuss it in the workshop, it shouldn't be in the conclusions of the workshop. Please bring it to the IG :)
16:30:56 [chaals]
... And that is general. Nothing will get done if *you* don't do it.
16:31:07 [chaals]
Danbri: should we do stuff in public?
16:31:29 [chaals]
FD: Would encourage you to do that, but if you are uncomfortable feel free to contact team to talk about it, but please feel free to jump on the list in public.
16:31:42 [chaals]
FD: Thanks, gotta go now.
16:31:50 [chaals]
Topic: summary
16:32:07 [chaals]
JJ: Good to summarise after the thing has ended and people have run to take a plane
16:32:18 [chaals]
... Thanks to everyone who helped and hosted and stuff.
16:33:16 [kaz_]
i/Thanks,/[ I'd mention we had very hot discussion on accessibility as well. So probably we should consider that item as well. ]
16:34:53 [chaals]
ADJOURNED
16:37:34 [chaals]
rrsagent, draft minutes
16:37:34 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/02/09-webtv-minutes.html chaals