22:01:10 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #html-a11y
22:01:10 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2011/02/09-html-a11y-irc
22:01:15 <janina> rrsagent, make log public
22:01:21 <janina> Meeting: HTML-A11Y telecon
22:01:21 <janina> Chair:  John_Foliot
22:01:21 <janina> agenda: this
22:01:21 <janina> agenda+ Identify Scribe
22:01:21 <janina> agenda+ Actions Review http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/track/actions/open
22:01:22 <janina> agenda+ Issue-152 Multitrack API http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-a11y/2011Feb/0079.html
22:01:24 <janina> agenda+ Time Tracks Feedback from Google http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-a11y/2011Jan/0152.html
22:01:27 <janina> agenda+ Are we done with Time Tracks?
22:01:29 <janina> agenda+ Poster Issue http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-a11y/2010Dec/0054.html
22:01:31 <janina> agenda+ Media Queries on Track http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-a11y/2010Dec/0145.html
22:01:33 <janina> agenda+ Other Business?
22:01:35 <janina> agenda+ be done
22:01:58 <janina>  zakim, this will be 2119
22:01:58 <Zakim> ok, janina; I see WAI_PFWG(A11Y)5:00PM scheduled to start now
22:02:05 <janina> zakim, code?
22:02:05 <Zakim> the conference code is 2119 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.26.46.79.03 tel:+44.203.318.0479), janina
22:02:36 <janina> zakim, take up item 1
22:02:36 <Zakim> agendum 1. "Identify Scribe" taken up [from janina]
22:02:43 <janina> scribe: janina
22:02:51 <janina> zakim, close item 1
22:02:51 <Zakim> agendum 1, Identify Scribe, closed
22:02:52 <Zakim> I see 8 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
22:02:54 <janina> zakim, next item
22:02:54 <Zakim> 2. Actions Review http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/track/actions/open [from janina]
22:02:55 <Zakim> agendum 2. "Actions Review http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/track/actions/open" taken up [from janina]
22:03:40 <silvia> zakim, mute me
22:03:40 <Zakim> sorry, silvia, I don't know what conference this is
22:04:24 <janina> rrsagent, make minutes
22:04:24 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/02/09-html-a11y-minutes.html janina
22:04:54 <janina> zakim, who's here?
22:04:54 <Zakim> WAI_PFWG(A11Y)5:00PM has not yet started, janina
22:04:55 <Zakim> On IRC I see RRSAgent, Zakim, silvia, JF, janina, MikeSmith, trackbot, [tm]
22:05:15 <janina> zakim, this will be WAI_PFWG(A11Y)
22:05:15 <Zakim> ok, janina, I see WAI_PFWG(A11Y)5:00PM already started
22:05:49 <silvia> zakim, mute me
22:05:49 <Zakim> sorry, silvia, I do not know which phone connection belongs to you
22:06:07 <janina> zakim, who's here?
22:06:07 <Zakim> On the phone I see +1.650.862.aaaa, ??P1, +1.408.823.aabb, +61.2.937.4.aacc
22:06:09 <Zakim> On IRC I see RRSAgent, Zakim, silvia, JF, janina, MikeSmith, trackbot, [tm]
22:06:30 <janina> zakim, aacc is Silvia
22:06:30 <Zakim> +Silvia; got it
22:06:43 <silvia> zakim, mute me
22:06:43 <Zakim> Silvia should now be muted
22:06:47 <JF> zakim, aaaa is JF
22:06:47 <Zakim> +JF; got it
22:06:50 <janina> zakim, ??P1 is janina
22:06:50 <Zakim> +janina; got it
22:07:07 <janina> zakim, aabb is Eric
22:07:07 <Zakim> +Eric; got it
22:07:24 <janina> regrets: Geoff
22:08:11 <silvia> regrets: Sean
22:08:35 <silvia> action-88?
22:08:35 <trackbot> ACTION-88 -- Sean Hayes to review Media Fragment URI 1.0 http://www.w3.org/TR/2010/WD-media-frags-20100624/ -- due 2010-11-24 -- OPEN
22:08:35 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/track/actions/88
22:10:24 <janina> rrsagent, close action-88
22:10:24 <RRSAgent> I'm logging. I don't understand 'close action-88', janina.  Try /msg RRSAgent help
22:10:29 <JF> action-96
22:10:31 <janina> zakim, close action-88
22:10:31 <Zakim> I don't understand 'close action-88', janina
22:10:32 <silvia> clost action-88
22:10:40 <silvia> close action-88
22:10:40 <trackbot> ACTION-88 Review Media Fragment URI 1.0 http://www.w3.org/TR/2010/WD-media-frags-20100624/ closed
22:11:02 <silvia> action-96?
22:11:02 <trackbot> ACTION-96 -- Eric Carlson to media Sub Team to revisit bug 11395 (Use media queries to select appropriate <track> elements) -- due 2011-01-06 -- OPEN
22:11:02 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/track/actions/96
22:11:52 <janina> close action-96
22:11:52 <trackbot> ACTION-96 Media Sub Team to revisit bug 11395 (Use media queries to select appropriate <track> elements) closed
22:12:06 <silvia> Dave and Eric decided it would be too complex to extend media queries for this purpose
22:12:19 <silvia> action-99?
22:12:19 <trackbot> ACTION-99 -- Janina Sajka to annotate 9452 with clear audio discovery and selection, as well as independent control of multiple playback tracks -- due 2011-01-19 -- OPEN
22:12:19 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/track/actions/99
22:12:46 <janina> zakim, next item
22:12:46 <Zakim> agendum 3. "Issue-152 Multitrack API http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-a11y/2011Feb/0079.html" taken up [from janina]
22:13:06 <silvia> zakim, unmute me
22:13:06 <Zakim> Silvia should no longer be muted
22:13:27 <Zakim> +Judy
22:14:55 <janina> Silvia: WG wants change proposals by Feb 21
22:15:08 <janina> Silvia: Has a proposal, asking for feedback
22:15:23 <silvia> http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/wiki/Media_Multitrack_Media_API
22:15:44 <janina> Silvia: I prefer solution #1
22:16:03 <janina> Silvia: People should read the wiki and indicate their preferences
22:16:51 <janina> Silvia: Also a proposal that defines a position on screen for the element (which can be changed with CSS)
22:17:50 <janina> Silvia: Microsoft had been for option #2
22:18:09 <janina> Silvia: We need continued discussion, as different people prefer different solutions
22:18:28 <janina> Eric: Will do so later today
22:18:52 <janina> Eric: Favoring option #2 with mod of having src element inside track to accomodate different encodings
22:19:32 <janina> Eric: I've pinged Frank, but not heard back yet
22:19:45 <janina> John: Asking about #7
22:20:11 <janina> John: is it correct that sign video track would be positioned using css?
22:20:29 <janina> John: PIP might be too smal on handhel, no?
22:20:46 <janina> John: Wereas, if independent, could do better sizing
22:20:52 <janina> Silvia: Yes, that's an advantage of #7
22:21:31 <janina> Silvia: These are some of the points it would be good to see on list
22:21:57 <janina> Eric: Why can't that also via track element?
22:22:21 <janina> Silvia: Would imply too fundamental changes, currently track only renders on viewport and nowhere else on page
22:22:43 <janina> Silvia: Track currently can't have children
22:22:57 <janina> Silvia: Don't know if that's open to mod in the WG?
22:23:18 <janina> Eric: Suspect we'll discuss any of these in the WG, even though it's late in the timeline, it's just been postponed
22:23:55 <janina> John: Didn't we identify a user req to position anywhere?
22:24:07 <janina> Eric: Yes, but not possible with spec as it is now
22:24:12 <janina> Silvia: Would be through js
22:24:30 <janina> Silvia: So, possible but not simple
22:26:22 <janina> Silvia: Proposing to widden the discussion
22:26:36 <janina> Judy: Proposing it should be on the W3C list
22:27:16 <janina> Judy: It's a critical piece of getting a11y addressed in W3C, so wouldn't make sense to not have it on W3C
22:27:24 <janina> Silvia: Problem is I've had no response on the W3C list
22:27:44 <janina> Judy: So, we should figure how to get the discussion going
22:28:02 <janina> Silvia: No reason to take it off, but should not be a problem widdening the discussion
22:28:39 <janina> Silvia: Just wonder if it makes sense to post to the WG list
22:28:47 <janina> Judy: Maybe that's why there's no response yet.
22:29:22 <janina> John: My concern is to avoid multiple discussions, too many gotchya possibilities.
22:29:55 <janina> Silvia: I'll keep track and report, but I want more opinions.
22:30:02 <janina> Eric: Agree, this topic is too important
22:30:21 <janina> Eric: We had this discussion sometime ago, and it's not progressing.
22:30:40 <janina> Judy: Thought the reason it's been silent is that more work was anticipated? Not so?
22:30:57 <janina> Silvia: The "More work part" is more discussion.
22:31:06 <janina> Silvia: Don't want a solution that's had too little vetting.
22:31:44 <janina> Silvia: I don't mean anything official--just to communicate what we're considering.
22:33:14 <janina> Judy: Important point is that we need to move forward and have a wider discussion
22:33:40 <janina> John: Do we revisit this next week? With the sense of a decision from the TF?
22:33:44 <janina> Silvia: Makes sense.
22:34:40 <janina> John: OK, any more on this?
22:35:28 <janina> Judy: One question: Given discussion is being raised in the broader group, has there been any feedback that we should chase down?
22:36:25 <janina> Janina: Yes, we should solicit feedback from a11y people with experience on this, NCAM, DAISY, etc
22:38:14 <janina> John: More on this?
22:38:19 <janina> zakim, next item
22:38:19 <Zakim> agendum 4. "Time Tracks Feedback from Google http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-a11y/2011Jan/0152.html" taken up [from janina]
22:38:44 <janina> John: An executive overview?
22:39:31 <janina> Silvia: So, I'm currently contracted to Google and have been working on this ...
22:40:09 <janina> Silvia: Teams from Chrome, YouTube, a11y, looking at WebSRT, track element
22:40:33 <janina> Silvia: Checked out 608 and 708 (used in U.S.)
22:41:20 <janina> Silvia: We're happy about a name change from WebSRT to WebVTT, in good part because SRT has negative reputation around copyright infringement
22:41:44 <janina> Judy: Question: When looking at U.S. reqs, were you looking at the FCC reqs?
22:41:50 <janina> Silvia: At Google's reqs
22:42:06 <janina> Silvia: The two existing standards for captions on TV
22:42:29 <janina> Silvia: These have limited set of features, insufficient for our reqs
22:42:47 <janina> Silvia: But, we want to replicate everything in 608 and 708
22:42:54 <janina> Judy: Yes, but my question is different ...
22:43:26 <janina> Judy: Since you're looking at U.S. reqs, did you consider the FCC VPAC reqs. You're aware of VPAC?
22:43:38 <janina> Silvia: Unaware they've produced a req doc?
22:43:55 <janina> Silvia: Understand only a general req
22:44:17 <janina> Eric: General req to carry captions in current broadcast video when broadcast over Internet
22:44:42 <janina> Eric: Sounds like they have basis to believe it will meet reqs from Vpac
22:45:08 <janina> Judy: There are also issues about emergency crawls, voicing of those, etc. including on the web
22:45:35 <janina> Judy: The reqs aren't mapped in the statute, but my impression is that there will be more reqs than previous practice
22:45:59 <janina> Silvia: So, I guess the answer is: "No, we didn't look at that."
22:46:13 <janina> Eric: Google is on the committee, yes?
22:46:15 <Zakim> -Eric
22:46:36 <Zakim> +Eric
22:46:37 <janina> Judy: Yes, but the committee's barely started. Only one meeting so far, and there's not yet been an opportunity to get a fuller understanding
22:47:12 <janina> Judy: Geoff did post his understanding that FCC would not identify a protocol for this
22:47:40 <Zakim> -Judy
22:47:45 <janina> Judy: There may be some clarification to that, as the charge for Vpac is to produce guidance
22:48:21 <janina> Silvia: So, the email summarizes our results ...
22:48:48 <janina> Silvia: Discusses gaps on WebVTT -- also what we want to see improved
22:49:17 <Zakim> +Judy
22:49:23 <janina> Silvia: I'm currently working on a js implementation for all this
22:49:54 <janina> Silvia: Think we're currently converging on changes needed to WebVTT, and they're not very large
22:50:46 <janina> John: Anything we need to consider?
22:51:07 <janina> Silvia: Don't think so--if any questions, happy to involve everyone in a discussion
22:51:25 <janina> John: Duplicate track? Not sure what the answer should be? Is there?
22:52:12 <janina> Silvia: Philip responded duplicate is same lang and same type format; answer just display both in the menu
22:52:42 <frankolivier> frankolivier has joined #html-a11y
22:53:01 <janina> Janina: Because independent alternate media authors may have produced a second version, same lang, same type
22:53:13 <janina> Eric: Correct, but spec says only one, and that's wrong
22:53:38 <silvia> s/wrong/guidance for authors/
22:53:49 <janina> Eric: Text is just guidance for authors, so from that perspective it's reasonable
22:54:11 <janina> John: Should we seek better spec?
22:54:50 <janina> John: To specifically say that both should be made available in the menu?
22:55:07 <janina> Silvia: Sounds like a reasonable bug, and makes it easier to conform across browsers
22:55:38 <janina> John: Just thinking of making things as robust as possible
22:56:02 <janina> John: Might as well get it into the spec, rather than by precedent, because there could be not so great precedent
22:56:10 <janina> Janina: Agree
22:56:14 <janina> John: I'll file
22:56:18 <Zakim> -Silvia
22:57:36 <JF> silvia, are you still on IRC?
22:58:24 <Zakim> +Silvia
22:58:58 <janina> John: Anything else?
22:59:24 <janina> Silvia: Would ask people to read through our results and respond with their thoughts.
22:59:27 <janina> zakim, next item
22:59:27 <Zakim> agendum 5. "Are we done with Time Tracks?" taken up [from janina]
23:00:21 <janina> John: Anything more we should say?
23:00:30 <janina> Judy: Let me try ... On the broader question
23:00:36 <silvia> zakim, mute me
23:00:36 <Zakim> Silvia should now be muted
23:01:11 <janina> Judy: The question remains a concern. There may be no other way, and considering the impace downstream is important ...
23:01:20 <janina> Judy: Is there a point for this group to comment?
23:01:29 <janina> John: That's the question.
23:02:42 <janina> John: Market forces will decide what each browser does ...
23:02:59 <janina> Judy: But, there's also continued discussion re our reqs
23:03:28 <janina> Eric: I have concerns with SYNMPTI, now that I've read the spec, from an a11y perspective, specifically with background image handling
23:03:38 <janina> Judy: Agree there are things to look at there
23:03:51 <silvia> s/SYNMPTI/SMPTE-TT/
23:04:14 <janina> Judy: My understanding is that Vpac won't mandate, but will comment on appropriatness of various options
23:04:28 <silvia> zakim, unmute me
23:04:28 <Zakim> Silvia should no longer be muted
23:04:32 <silvia> +q
23:04:36 <janina> Judy: Understand there are strong leanings on the part of some stakeholders
23:04:58 <janina> Judy: We're also looking at this in W3C
23:05:25 <janina> Judy: Curious to learn more about the background image issue
23:05:51 <janina> Judy: W3C needs to be responsive to the entire field--all stakeholders
23:07:07 <janina> Eric: Not sure that background is necessarily harmful to a11y, but analgous to CSS background--and we should have a discussion
23:07:21 <silvia> s/background/background-image/
23:07:51 <janina> Judy: Agree we should understand it better. Let's do
23:07:55 <janina> Eric: Happy to do so
23:08:21 <janina> Silvia: Done a prelim on SYMPTI TT; agree with Eric, unclear what we get if we use it
23:09:06 <janina> Silvia: If I understand correctly, one key purpose is to get legacy content onto the web with captions, using Internet as a transport, not necessarily as web content
23:09:58 <janina> Silvia: It's an exchange format, so makes sense to use for encapsulating and transporting; But that doesn't necessarily imply presentation
23:10:24 <janina> Judy: Curious to explore something on this ...
23:10:42 <janina> Judy: Understand that's the basis of their approach, have heard this elsewhere as well
23:11:00 <janina> Judy: Not as convinced that some of the broadcast people aren't also looking at using it on the web
23:11:43 <janina> Judy: Are you certain that there aren't already entities forseeing use of TT for web delivery?
23:12:10 <janina> Judy: Don't think this answers what W3C should do, just trying to clarify our understanding of where people are coming from
23:12:29 <janina> Silvia: I was trying to understand how the SYMPTI standard came to be
23:13:00 <janina> Silvia: e.g. there aqre binary captions in legacy content
23:13:42 <janina> Silvia: Transformational and transport formats aren't necessarily the best choices for web presentation
23:14:42 <janina> Silvia: We have to deal with the converging world, and we have these two groups coming from different perspectives
23:15:05 <janina> Silvia: Don't know if we can consolidate the two
23:15:40 <janina> Silvia: May be delivered across the net, but not delivered via a browser
23:17:03 <janina> Judy: Very helpful, Silvia. I appreciate your perspective.
23:17:32 <janina> Janina: Suspect browser will emerge because there are also a11y reqs on the user interface now
23:17:43 <janina> John: Or plugins, which I expect
23:18:02 <janina> Judy: Several people are wondering about convergence possibilities
23:18:43 <janina> John: With a few minutes left, I want to recap ...
23:18:50 <silvia> zakim, mute me
23:18:50 <Zakim> Silvia should now be muted
23:19:04 <janina> John: Judy, you mentioned a two week timeline?
23:19:48 <janina> Judy: W3C is participating on the Vpac, we're there to be helpful and explain what we're working on, but we don't have a position
23:20:32 <janina> Judy: We'd like to bring info as up to date and as useful as possible, so very interested in our analysis of SYMPTI TT vs W3C TTML
23:20:54 <silvia> q+
23:20:56 <janina> Judy: Then the a11y relevance
23:22:00 <janina> Judy: So, the possibility of convergence before many years go by with people working in different formats, that's an important question.
23:22:12 <Judy> Judy has joined #html-a11y
23:22:43 <janina> John: Specifically we've a pressing timeline for multitrack api, just thinking in terms of time alltoment here
23:23:09 <janina> Judy: Don't have a good answer right now.
23:23:57 <janina> Judy: Perhaps 20 minutes on the SYMPTI next week? Three of us have looked at it already?
23:24:03 <silvia> zakim, ack me
23:24:03 <Zakim> unmuting Silvia
23:24:04 <Zakim> I see no one on the speaker queue
23:24:29 <Judy> s/SYMPI/SMPT/
23:24:32 <janina> Silvia: Suggesting Eric and I look more closely at SYMPTI, and also Judy, so we should discuss it
23:25:02 <silvia> s/SYMPTI/SMPTE-TT/
23:25:03 <janina> rrsagent, make minutes
23:25:03 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/02/09-html-a11y-minutes.html janina
23:25:29 <janina> John: Just concerned we conclude on multitrack
23:27:21 <janina> akim, next item
23:27:26 <janina> zakim, next item
23:27:26 <Zakim> agendum 6. "Poster Issue http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-a11y/2010Dec/0054.html" taken up [from janina]
23:27:33 <janina> John: Nothing to add ...
23:27:39 <silvia> zakim, mute me
23:27:39 <Zakim> Silvia should now be muted
23:27:52 <janina> Janina: Pf interested that we have screenshots to mark up for the two proposals, that we not leave this to a handwave
23:28:07 <silvia> zakim, unmute me
23:28:07 <Zakim> Silvia should no longer be muted
23:28:44 <Zakim> -Silvia
23:28:46 <Zakim> -Eric
23:29:01 <Zakim> -janina
23:29:03 <Zakim> -JF
23:29:19 <Zakim> -Judy
23:29:20 <Zakim> WAI_PFWG(A11Y)5:00PM has ended
23:29:22 <Zakim> Attendees were +1.650.862.aaaa, +1.408.823.aabb, +61.2.937.4.aacc, Silvia, JF, janina, Eric, Judy
23:29:32 <MikeSmith_> MikeSmith_ has joined #html-a11y
23:36:40 <Judy> s/VPAC/VPAAC
23:36:40 <Judy> s/FCC would not identify/FCC would not mandate/
23:36:40 <Judy> s/Vpac/VPAAC
23:36:40 <Judy> s/SYMPTI/SMPTE
23:57:59 <janina> zakim, bye
23:57:59 <Zakim> Zakim has left #html-a11y
23:58:05 <janina> rrsagent make minutes
23:59:31 <janina> rrsagent, make minutes
23:59:31 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/02/09-html-a11y-minutes.html janina