14:53:47 RRSAgent has joined #lld 14:53:47 logging to http://www.w3.org/2011/02/03-lld-irc 14:53:54 rrsagent, bookmark 14:53:54 See http://www.w3.org/2011/02/03-lld-irc#T14-53-54 14:54:06 Meeting: LLD XG 14:54:13 Chair: Antoine 14:54:27 Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xg-lld/2011Jan/0169.html 14:55:00 Previous: 2011-01-27 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xg-lld/2011Jan/0160.html 14:55:12 TomB has joined #lld 14:55:55 Regrets: Lars, Uldis, Mark, Guenther, Michel, Monica, Ed 14:56:04 rrsagent, please make record public 14:57:26 zakim, pleas mute me 14:57:26 I don't understand 'pleas mute me', antoine 14:57:30 zakim, please mute me 14:57:33 sorry, antoine, I don't know what conference this is 14:57:33 GordonD has joined #lld 14:57:51 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/02/03-lld-minutes.html TomB 14:57:51 emma has joined #lld 14:58:05 kcoyle has joined #lld 14:59:22 pmurray has joined #lld 14:59:26 zakim, unmute me 14:59:26 sorry, antoine, I don't know what conference this is 14:59:26 kefo has joined #lld 14:59:31 zakim, LC is me 14:59:31 sorry, kefo, I do not recognize a party named 'LC' 14:59:37 jodi has joined #LLD 14:59:43 marcia has joined #lld 14:59:45 zakim, LC is me 14:59:46 sorry, kefo, I do not recognize a party named 'LC' 14:59:52 AlexanderH has joined #lld 14:59:55 jneubert has joined #lld 15:00:05 kai has joined #lld 15:00:08 zakim, who is here? 15:00:09 strange... calling the boston number forwards me directly to W3C admin assistance... 15:00:15 ww: worked ok for me 15:00:17 sorry, jodi, I don't know what conference this is 15:00:38 first time I called it forwarded me to admin assistance. second time I got through 15:00:50 fsasaki has joined #lld 15:01:04 zakim, this is lld 15:01:04 ok, emma; that matches INC_LLDXG()10:00AM 15:01:13 rsinger has joined #lld 15:01:16 zakim, who's here ? 15:01:18 jodi: worked the second time 15:01:19 On the phone I see ??P4, Jodi, michaelp, [LC], ??P13, ??P9, ??P10, emma, rsinger, [IPcaller], +1.678.235.aaaa, ??P18, ??P19, +44.131.516.aabb, marcia 15:01:25 zakim, LC is me 15:01:26 hmm... 15:01:28 who am I? :) 15:01:29 rayd has joined #lld 15:01:31 +kefo; got it 15:01:31 Zakim, aabb is me 15:01:38 zakim, mute me 15:01:41 +ww; got it 15:01:42 zakim, this will be lld 15:01:45 marcia should now be muted 15:01:47 ok, TomB, I see INC_LLDXG()10:00AM already started 15:01:47 rrsagent, bookmark 15:01:47 See http://www.w3.org/2011/02/03-lld-irc#T15-01-47-1 15:01:53 Meeting: LLD XG 15:01:54 zakim, who's here? 15:01:56 +??P32 15:01:56 Chair: Antoine 15:01:58 On the phone I see ??P4, Jodi, michaelp, kefo, ??P13, ??P9, ??P10, emma, rsinger, [IPcaller], +1.678.235.aaaa, ??P18, ??P19, ww, marcia (muted), ??P32 15:02:06 Zakim, mute me 15:02:06 ww should now be muted 15:02:07 zakim aaaa is me 15:02:20 zakim, aaaa is me 15:02:20 +pmurray; got it 15:02:27 I'm either P4, P13, P9, P10, P18 or P19 :) 15:02:27 + +49.173.609.aacc 15:02:36 hang up and call back? 15:02:48 zakim, aacc is jneubert 15:02:49 +jneubert; got it 15:03:08 zakim, ??P4 is TomB 15:03:08 +TomB; got it 15:03:11 present+ jeff_ 15:03:12 -??P18 15:03:19 zakim, who is online? 15:03:19 I don't understand your question, kai. 15:03:19 present+ AlexanderH 15:03:19 present+ kcoyle 15:03:26 zakim, who is on the phone? 15:03:26 On the phone I see TomB, Jodi, michaelp, kefo, ??P13, ??P9, ??P10, emma, rsinger, [IPcaller], pmurray (muted), ??P19 (muted), ww (muted), marcia (muted), felix (muted), jneubert 15:03:34 -??P9 15:03:34 zakim, ??P19 is me. 15:03:35 +kai; got it 15:03:35 +??P1 15:03:43 Zakim, P1 is digikim 15:03:45 sorry, digikim, I do not recognize a party named 'P1' 15:03:50 Zakim, ??P1 is digikim 15:03:53 zakim, who is on the phone? 15:03:54 I already had ??P1 as ??P1, digikim 15:03:59 On the phone I see TomB, Jodi, michaelp, kefo, ??P13, ??P10, emma, rsinger, [IPcaller], pmurray (muted), kai, ww (muted), marcia (muted), felix (muted), jneubert (muted), ??P1 15:04:03 argh :) 15:04:18 kcoyle present+ kcoyle 15:04:19 Zakim, ??P1 is digikim. 15:04:23 +??P9 15:04:25 I already had ??P1 as ??P1, digikim 15:04:30 zakim, ??P13 is me 15:04:34 zakim, jeff_ is ??P13 15:04:35 +jeff_; got it 15:04:36 zakim, ??P9 is GordonD 15:04:39 +??P13; got it 15:04:41 +GordonD; got it 15:05:03 zakim, who is here? 15:05:03 On the phone I see TomB, Jodi, michaelp, kefo, ??P13, ??P10, emma, rsinger, [IPcaller], pmurray (muted), kai, ww (muted), marcia (muted), felix (muted), jneubert (muted), ??P1, 15:05:07 ... GordonD 15:05:16 zakim, ??P13 is me 15:05:16 +jeff_; got it 15:05:38 zakim, ??P10 may be kcoyle 15:05:38 +kcoyle?; got it 15:06:08 +[LC] 15:06:14 zakim, LC is rayd 15:06:14 +rayd; got it 15:06:32 ??P1 is me, but Zakim doesn't accept it... 15:06:42 (can somebody solve it?) 15:06:49 zakim, mute m 15:06:49 'm' is ambiguous, kefo 15:06:51 zakim, mute me 15:06:51 kefo should now be muted 15:07:08 scribe: felix 15:07:13 zakim, mute me 15:07:13 jeff_ should now be muted 15:07:16 Scribenick: fsasiki 15:07:24 s/sasiki/sasaki 15:08:05 topic: admin 15:08:07 rrsagent, please draft minutes 15:08:07 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/02/03-lld-minutes.html emma 15:08:12 PROPOSED: To accept http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/minutes/2011/01/27-lld-minutes.html 15:08:35 RESOLUTION: previous minutes accepted 15:08:51 topic: final report draft 15:09:00 -> http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/wiki/DraftReport 15:09:08 see also http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/minutes/2011/01/27-lld-minutes.html 15:09:34 action on Antoine to include executive summary placeholder in report - has been done 15:09:54 -> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xg-lld/2011Jan/0161.html 15:10:23 ACTION: Antoine to include executive summary placeholder in report [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/minutes/2011/01/27-lld-minutes.html#action01] 15:10:25 --done 15:11:02 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/02/03-lld-minutes.html TomB 15:11:37 rrsagent please make record public 15:11:45 ACTION: emma to put the Goals page content at the beginning of the use case section [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/minutes/2011/01/27-lld-minutes.html#action02] 15:11:57 --done 15:12:05 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/02/03-lld-minutes.html TomB 15:12:19 emma: it is only a draft, would be great if everybody could review that piece of text 15:12:22 http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/wiki/DraftReport#State_of_the_art_use_cases_and_requirements 15:12:49 emma: not sure if it captures the essence of the use case 15:13:01 antoine: we can check it later, the action is clearly done, thanks a lot 15:13:10 jodi has joined #LLD 15:13:17 +??P48 15:13:20 ACTION: emma to put the Goals page content at the beginning of the use case section [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/minutes/2011/01/27-lld-minutes.html#action02] 15:13:22 --DONE 15:13:53 zakim, ??P48 is Asaf 15:13:53 +Asaf; got it 15:14:05 ACTION: emma to add a 1.4 section (before recommendations) on problems and limitations [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/minutes/2011/01/27-lld-minutes.html#action05] 15:14:15 --done 15:14:20 http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/wiki/DraftReport#Problems_and_limitations 15:14:27 Asaf has joined #lld 15:14:34 emma: only edited the section with a few links, we have to discuss what we want to put in here 15:14:45 antoine: thanks, we will discuss that later 15:15:12 antoine: now about "Fate of library standards and issues pages" 15:15:50 ACTION: GordonD to split http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/wiki/Library_standards_and_linked_data and make recommendations on where to integrate into the final report [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/minutes/2011/01/27-lld-minutes.html#action04] 15:16:19 --done 15:16:57 link to page? 15:17:08 http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/wiki/Library_standards_and_linked_data 15:17:15 http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/wiki/Library_Data_Resources 15:17:24 http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/wiki/Granularity_of_library_metadata 15:17:57 Gordon, do you mean http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/wiki/DraftReport#Datasets ? 15:18:04 q+ 15:18:38 Library Data Resources - needs a placeholder in Final report, in Available data section. 15:19:09 q+ Does it need a recommendations section, not just an available data section? 15:19:17 Library standards and linked data, following discussion at future telecon, probably fits the Problems and limitations section of the Final report. 15:19:21 (above and below are gordon's suggestions for reorganising the material) 15:19:36 +1 sounds good Gordon 15:19:52 zakim, ack kcoyle 15:19:52 I see no one on the speaker queue 15:19:59 +1 15:20:03 ack kcoyle 15:20:12 you cna't hear me? 15:20:22 i'm not muted 15:20:40 ok, i'll type it in 15:20:51 yes, i hear you 15:21:05 possibly 15:21:38 karen: we gathered a lot of data 15:21:39 Final note for the record: the Granularities page is now incorporated in the Library standards and linked data page. 15:21:42 zakim, kcoyle? is probably jeff 15:21:42 +jeff?; got it 15:21:48 .. I would like to see our report to be an analysis of what we gathered 15:21:50 -Asaf 15:21:56 .. we seem to be ending up with a list of information 15:22:14 .. we should discuss how we end of with the analysis from that list 15:22:29 .. we don't know how all of those standards, librarry data structure 15:22:34 .. fits in into linked data 15:22:38 +1 lists will get stale quickly - emphasizing analysis is good 15:22:41 .. we have no answer, but a question 15:22:53 .. we gathered some data for beginning 15:23:06 .. we need to say: here is a beginning of a task that needs to happen 15:23:16 .. i.e. how to go from library data to linked data 15:23:19 +1, karen ! 15:23:20 antoine: sounds good 15:23:41 karen: somebody has to write that analysis part 15:23:54 antoine: couldn't that be for many of these sections? 15:24:01 karen: that is true for every section 15:24:15 q+ to suggest that we have writers -- and _reviewers_ 15:24:17 antoine: agree, people should volunteer for curating these sections 15:24:24 +1 to writers and reviewers 15:24:34 +1 to appendices also 15:24:42 karen: some things which are in the report will end up to be appendicies with long lists of things 15:24:43 +1 to pushing things into appendices 15:24:54 +1 for all these suggestions 15:24:55 s/appendicies/appendicies/ 15:24:58 zakim, ack TomB 15:24:58 TomB, you wanted to suggest that we have writers -- and _reviewers_ 15:24:59 I see no one on the speaker queue 15:25:03 tom: completely agree with karen 15:25:19 .. in addition to writers we need reviewers 15:26:15 also the better (more complete, more readable, ...) each section will get, from review 15:26:15 .. the more we read the entire report the more we will understand the coherence of the report 15:26:23 coherence++ 15:26:43 tom: we are going to need to iterate through all of these sections for a few times 15:27:11 .. we need to get the authors themselves involved in thinking about what a section is trying to do, how well it is communicated, what is needed to be done 15:27:16 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/02/03-lld-minutes.html fsasaki 15:27:36 antoine: above comments in the minutes makes a lot of sense for everyone 15:27:45 .. should we record an action or resolution? 15:27:49 tom: no need for a resolution 15:28:12 .. creating the agenda (of calls) we should look for reviewers 15:28:23 antoine: ok, let's discuss that in upcoming calls 15:29:10 action: gordon to update the draft report structure with suggestions he made concerning the wiki pages 15:29:40 antoine: wiki page about granularity of library data is now obsolete 15:29:44 gordon: correct 15:30:01 .. will delete content to granularity page, you may want to remove that from the archives 15:30:13 topic: WIKI PAGE DISCUSSION 15:30:44 -> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xg-lld/2011Jan/0148.html 15:31:39 antoine: there was a discussion on a storyboard, for the "youtube" page 15:31:58 tom: I would lead towards dropping that as an action for the incubator group 15:32:10 .. we are getting short on time, doing the report has a higher priority 15:32:23 .. I suggest that we continue it, but not as a critical deliverble 15:33:00 .. it is fun to think about these ideas, so I would be in favor of continuing it, but not regard it as a deliverable of the group 15:33:11 s/deliverble/deliverable/ 15:33:21 tom: shouldn't be a high priority 15:33:25 +1 Tom's suggestion 15:33:42 antoine: would keep it as trailing part of our agenda 15:33:57 -> http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/wiki/File:LayeredModelV3.pdf 15:34:21 emma: was an illustration for library standards resoruce page 15:34:40 .. tried to explain how library standards relate to each other, to dublin core, linked data standards 15:35:18 .. was an important step to draw it 15:35:21 +1 15:35:30 antoine: should we start a discussion on the list? 15:35:37 emma: yes, but I have to update it first 15:35:52 .. some things we defined that should be integrated in the last part of the diagram 15:35:54 I think it's important to include the broad relationships between components - I'd like to see the diagram in the final report 15:36:34 q+ 15:36:35 action: emma to update "layered model" diagram model and lead a discussion on it in the coming weeks 15:36:46 zakim, ack kcoyle 15:36:46 I see no one on the speaker queue 15:36:57 karen: we have the page with a lot of presentations 15:36:59 that list is VERY messy 15:37:13 .. tom's idea was that we would extract some good illustrations that could be re-used 15:37:16 http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/wiki/Presentations 15:37:28 q+ 15:37:31 .. diagrams would be an example, to be used to explain ideas 15:38:03 .. but we need to discuss this - I would take an action to go through presentations and see what we can use 15:38:10 zakim, ack TomB 15:38:10 I see no one on the speaker queue 15:39:02 tom: an idea was that we have powerpoint presentation as part of our deliverables 15:39:17 it could also help in writing the executive summary 15:39:27 i.e. what to say to "decision makers" 15:39:31 .. I think we need to concentrate our discussion on what our main results our 15:39:48 .. not sure if we can have a PP presentation as an output of the group 15:40:13 .. but having some sort of a presentation format can become a focus for discussing our message in a really condensed way 15:40:49 .. a lot of us will have an opportunity to give presentations, would be good to have slides to draw upon 15:41:19 +1 for a standard presentation 15:41:58 +1 for materials and building blocks 15:41:59 +1 for good set of graphics 15:42:06 antoine: good ideas - if somebody will take an action, I would be fine 15:42:07 +1 for all of the above! 15:42:19 kcoyle++ 15:42:28 karen: I could look through the presentations and begin to extract some things, to help to start the discussion 15:42:35 kcoyle++ 15:42:36 q+ to be careful about property rights 15:43:18 action: karen to look through the presentations and begin to extract some things, to help to start the discussion 15:43:45 ack em 15:43:45 emma, you wanted to be careful about property rights 15:43:46 zakim, ack emma 15:43:47 I see no one on the speaker queue 15:43:56 q+ to suggest that we give credit 15:44:09 zakim, please ack TomB 15:44:09 I don't understand 'please ack TomB', antoine 15:44:09 emma: make sure that you have the right for the owners and that it does not conflict with W3C rules 15:44:12 karen: sure 15:44:21 ack tom 15:44:21 TomB, you wanted to suggest that we give credit 15:44:39 tom: we will give people give credit on the bottom of the slides, with regards to the source 15:45:01 zakim, unmute me 15:45:01 sorry, jeff_, I do not know which phone connection belongs to you 15:45:44 -> http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/wiki/Library_data_in_Semantic_Web_formats 15:45:48 Zakim, unmute me 15:45:48 ww should no longer be muted 15:46:04 antoine: wiki page you created "library data and semantic web formats" 15:46:16 .. can we declare that page as superseded by the CKAN efforts? 15:46:25 ross: yes, I think we agreed on that 15:46:54 .. we can deprecate that wikipage in favor of CKAN efforts 15:47:21 action: ross to deprecate the "library data and semantic web formats" and create a link to the CKAN efforts 15:47:24 'deprecate' means that we'll be sure that any info on the wiki will get into CKAN, before deleting the page and redirecting it to CKAN? 15:47:31 +1 happy with CKAN approach 15:47:48 ross: there is hardly any information on the page anyway 15:47:50 Thanks, Ross! :) 15:48:16 .. the information will go into ckan, and there will be a note that any information you have will go into CKAN, and how to do that 15:48:24 Zakim, mute me 15:48:24 ww should now be muted 15:48:25 topic: USE CASE CLUSTERS 15:48:43 http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/wiki/Cluster_Authority_data 15:48:44 http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/wiki/Cluster_Authority_data 15:48:44 antoine: today talking about authority data cluster 15:48:55 Asaf has joined #lld 15:49:13 jeff: still rough, still with stuff that needs to be sorted out 15:50:03 .. in UNIMARC a primary entity was defined, which authority data is about 15:50:16 .. it is about persons, organisations etc. 15:50:23 .. some things are difficult to model 15:50:32 .. if you think about the RDF ontology for example 15:50:44 .. XYZ was thinking about a group of mathematicians 15:50:51 .. not sure about how to model that in RDA 15:51:05 .. the entities are the things which we are famiiar with from FRBR 15:51:09 undifferentiated persons 15:51:28 .. in the US we tend to think about personal things etc., modeling different types of heading 15:51:52 .. Antoine has modled parts of the METS ontology nicely in SKOS 15:51:57 @emma: suggest continuing with wiki page discussion next week starting with Topics, Semantic_Web_terminology... 15:52:03 s/METS/MADS 15:52:18 .. modeling in FBRR and labeling stuff can be done in SKOS, as a basis 15:52:49 jeff: Alexander is a little bit uncomfortable with modeling in SKOS 15:52:51 s/FBRR/FRBR 15:53:05 .. he would like to see some abstractions from SKOS 15:53:15 .. not really comfortable with "real world object" term 15:53:41 .. the concepts can be included in real world objects, so not comfortable with re-defining real world object 15:53:57 .. the metadata is not about the thing, but the properties of it 15:54:35 antoine: the cluster is about reflecting what is in the use cases 15:55:52 jeff: a lot of use cases don't think about conceptualisation 15:55:59 .. very little what they have in common 15:56:07 .. what is what makes them "authority"? 15:56:08 maybe list those questions in the 'Limitations and Questions" 15:56:23 .. the model, a particiular vocabulary being used, .... 15:56:33 .. the kind o entities being there? 15:56:53 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/02/03-lld-minutes.html fsasaki 15:56:54 q+ 15:57:07 ack ale 15:57:09 +1 what antoine says - reflect differences as well as similarities 15:57:12 zakim, ack AlexanderH 15:57:12 I see no one on the speaker queue 15:57:21 alexander: to answer the question "what is authority data"? 15:57:33 .. we try to make sure that we have a kind of indicator of authority 15:57:51 .. that is something what we should discuss on the list - what is in, what is out? 15:58:08 .. people can add information to linked data, and they can mess it up 15:58:17 The question is: what "things" are libraries interested in - as authorities? 15:58:32 .. so is the organisation publishing something important for judging authority, or what else? 15:58:55 That is, of all the "things" that are the subjects of non-library triples. 15:58:57 antoine: if you feel you need the input from the group on these aspects, please feel free to ask about it 15:59:12 .. issues are all important, we have discussed some of them quite a lot 15:59:30 .. but we may just want to resolve that there are some open issues that we cann't finish now 15:59:41 .. please discuss with the way you think it is useful 16:00:01 .. I do feel that it is very important that we base our discussions on observable applications 16:00:07 We can include the broader authority issues in the forthcoming telecon on the Library standards and linked data page 16:01:08 antoine: thanks a lot, Jeff, alexander, joachim 16:01:11 topic: AOB 16:01:30 antoine: thanks for today, adjourn 16:01:32 bye 16:01:32 bye! 16:01:33 -rayd 16:01:35 Zakim, unmute me 16:01:35 ww should no longer be muted 16:01:36 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/02/03-lld-minutes.html fsasaki 16:01:36 bye! 16:01:37 -GordonD 16:01:37 bye 16:01:38 -kefo 16:01:39 -kcoyle 16:01:41 -marcia 16:01:42 -jneubert 16:01:44 rrsagent, please draft minutes 16:01:44 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/02/03-lld-minutes.html antoine 16:01:45 -Jodi 16:01:49 -michaelp 16:01:49 bye 16:01:51 -kai 16:01:57 -ww 16:01:59 -pmurray 16:02:01 -??P1 16:02:05 -rsinger 16:02:06 -[IPcaller] 16:02:23 -felix 16:03:34 zakim, please list attendees 16:03:39 As of this point the attendees have been Jodi, michaelp, emma, rsinger, [IPcaller], +1.678.235.aaaa, +44.131.516.aabb, marcia, kefo, ww, felix, pmurray, +49.173.609.aacc, jneubert, 16:03:44 ... TomB, kai, GordonD, jeff_, rayd, Asaf, kcoyle, jeff? 16:03:48 -emma 16:04:11 rrsagent, please draft minutes 16:04:11 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/02/03-lld-minutes.html antoine 16:04:50 -jeff? 16:05:58 -TomB 16:05:59 INC_LLDXG()10:00AM has ended 16:06:01 Attendees were Jodi, michaelp, emma, rsinger, [IPcaller], +1.678.235.aaaa, +44.131.516.aabb, marcia, kefo, ww, felix, pmurray, +49.173.609.aacc, jneubert, TomB, kai, GordonD, 16:06:04 ... jeff_, rayd, Asaf, kcoyle, jeff? 16:06:06 zakim, bye 16:06:06 Zakim has left #lld 16:06:15 rrsagent, bye 16:06:15