IRC log of css on 2011-02-02

Timestamps are in UTC.

16:53:59 [RRSAgent]
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16:53:59 [RRSAgent]
logging to
16:54:10 [plinss]
rrsagent, make logs public
16:54:24 [plinss]
zakim, this will be style
16:54:24 [Zakim]
ok, plinss; I see Style_CSS FP()12:00PM scheduled to start in 6 minutes
16:55:49 [kojiishi]
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16:58:17 [MikeSmith]
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16:59:33 [Zakim]
Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has now started
16:59:40 [Zakim]
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16:59:44 [Zakim]
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17:00:15 [arronei]
zakim, microsoft has me
17:00:16 [dsinger_]
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17:00:17 [Zakim]
+arronei; got it
17:00:41 [Zakim]
17:00:44 [cesar]
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17:00:58 [Zakim]
17:01:07 [Zakim]
17:01:11 [Zakim]
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17:01:28 [johnjan]
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17:01:31 [Zakim]
17:01:37 [johnjan]
zakim, microsoft is johnjan
17:01:37 [Zakim]
+johnjan; got it
17:01:38 [danielweck]
zakim, +??P1 is me
17:01:39 [Zakim]
sorry, danielweck, I do not recognize a party named '+??P1'
17:01:42 [Zakim]
17:01:48 [danielweck]
zakim, ??P1 is me
17:01:48 [Zakim]
+danielweck; got it
17:01:58 [kojiishi]
zakim, ??P16 is me
17:01:58 [Zakim]
+kojiishi; got it
17:02:22 [dsinger_]
zakim, who is here?
17:02:22 [Zakim]
On the phone I see plinss, johnjan, [Microsoft.a], danielweck, [Microsoft.aa], fantasai, dsinger (muted), kojiishi
17:02:29 [Zakim]
johnjan has arronei
17:02:33 [Zakim]
On IRC I see johnjan, cesar, dsinger_, oyvind, bradk, MikeSmith, kojiishi, RRSAgent, Zakim, danielweck, dbaron, Martijnc, kennyluck, miketaylr, lhnz, karl, Ms2ger, anne, arronei,
17:02:38 [Zakim]
... CSSWG_LogBot, Bert, krijnh, fantasai, jgraham, gsnedders, plinss, Hixie, TabAtkins, trackbot
17:02:47 [Zakim]
17:03:41 [sylvaing]
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17:04:08 [ChrisL]
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17:04:19 [cesar]
I'm having problems with Skype and the conference code (through Nice number; I'll try another one...)
17:04:40 [Zakim]
17:04:41 [howcome]
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17:04:51 [Zakim]
17:05:25 [Zakim]
17:06:00 [sylvaing]
scribenick: sylvaing
17:06:04 [szilles]
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17:06:21 [smfr]
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17:06:32 [sylvaing]
Topic: CSS2.1 status
17:06:42 [Zakim]
+ +34.60.940.aaaa
17:06:53 [Zakim]
17:07:00 [cesar]
Zakim, aaa is me.
17:07:00 [Zakim]
sorry, cesar, I do not recognize a party named 'aaa'
17:07:04 [sylvaing]
arronei: my updates are done. emails on changes will follow today
17:07:13 [sylvaing]
dbaron: I've checked in all my updates as well
17:07:26 [cesar]
member:Zakim, aaaa is me
17:07:28 [Zakim]
+ +39.524.9.aabb
17:07:31 [sylvaing]
plinss: any other updates ?
17:07:47 [sylvaing]
fantasai: I have some bidi and outline test updates coming
17:08:02 [smfr]
Zakim, aaaa is cesar
17:08:02 [Zakim]
+cesar; got it
17:09:08 [sylvaing]
fantasai: I should be able to fix these today.
17:09:21 [alexmog]
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17:09:53 [sylvaing]
plinss: someone needs to remove run-in. who does that ?
17:10:01 [sylvaing]
arronei: testcases or spec prose ?
17:10:05 [sylvaing]
plinss: both
17:10:11 [sylvaing]
arronei: I can remove the run-in testcases
17:10:48 [TabAtkins_]
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17:11:24 [Zakim]
+ +1.650.214.aacc
17:11:30 [TabAtkins_]
zakim, aacc is TabAtkins
17:11:30 [Zakim]
+TabAtkins; got it
17:12:03 [Zakim]
17:12:07 [Zakim]
17:12:56 [dbaron]
Zakim, who is on the phone?
17:12:56 [Zakim]
On the phone I see plinss, johnjan, [Microsoft.a], danielweck, [Microsoft.aa], fantasai, dsinger (muted), kojiishi, dbaron, Bert, howcome, SteveZ, cesar, smfr, +39.524.9.aabb,
17:13:00 [Zakim]
... TabAtkins
17:13:00 [Zakim]
johnjan has arronei
17:13:04 [sylvaing]
plinss, fantasai: run-in needs to move to CSS3 Box
17:14:08 [Bert]
I can hardly hear what Elika says, but I could probably propose an edit for CSS 2.1.
17:14:40 [Bert]
(And move the def to Box, of course.)
17:14:43 [fantasai]
17:14:49 [sylvaing]
ACTION: Bert to propose CSS2.1 edit to remove run-in and move to CSS3 Box
17:14:49 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-291 - Propose CSS2.1 edit to remove run-in and move to CSS3 Box [on Bert Bos - due 2011-02-09].
17:14:56 [johnjan]
bert, what's your ETA on that?
17:15:24 [arronei]
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17:15:41 [sylvaing]
plinss: the test harness runs on top of nightlies
17:16:08 [sylvaing]
fantasai: we still have open issues on the issues list
17:16:55 [sylvaing]
arronei: I haven't added anything to the CSS21 issues list
17:17:20 [sylvaing]
ACTION: fantasai to review and update the CSS21 open issues list
17:17:20 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-292 - Review and update the CSS21 open issues list [on Elika Etemad - due 2011-02-09].
17:18:01 [alexmog]
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17:19:30 [johnjan]
sounds like Bert's edit and the list of open issues are the only things blocking PR.
17:19:44 [sylvaing]
Topic: publication request for CSS3 Speech
17:19:48 [johnjan]
as long as the test harness shows passes correctly.
17:19:49 [danielweck]
17:20:12 [Zakim]
17:20:14 [sylvaing]
danielweck: the current draft is being updated as we speak. I think it is ready for LC
17:20:24 [sylvaing]
danielweck: three issues at this point
17:20:50 [sylvaing]
danielweck: in order for the document to reach LC, do I have to remove all issues currently in document as well as editor's comments ?
17:21:03 [alexmog]
zakim, ipcaller is alex
17:21:03 [Zakim]
+alex; got it
17:21:09 [sylvaing]
chrisl: you can keep editor's comments but you must deal with all open issues to reach LC
17:21:38 [sylvaing]
danielweck: there is no consensus to remove the phonemes property so I would keep it in there. there are strong views both ways
17:22:12 [sylvaing]
fantasai: we should attempt to discuss and resolve the issue in the WG
17:23:28 [dsinger]
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17:23:31 [Zakim]
17:23:43 [smfr]
gee, that almost sounds like hyphenation-resource
17:23:49 [Zakim]
17:23:50 [Zakim]
17:23:59 [dsinger]
zakim, [apple] has dsinger
17:23:59 [Zakim]
+dsinger; got it
17:24:42 [sylvaing]
danielweck: objections we had included the inability to bind a w3c PLS to an HTML document and this was the only way to do it. others thought this did not constitute styling.
17:24:55 [dbaron]
Is it possible to replace "(the actual arithmetics involved are beyond the scope of this specification, please refer to existing literature on that subject)" with "(the twelfth root of two)"? :-)
17:24:55 [sylvaing]
danielweck: as this is well-defined, I would rather go to LC with the feature
17:25:05 [Bert]
q+ to ask if the list of editors is still correct, or are they rather "former editors."
17:26:05 [dbaron]
Also, I wonder if the 'st' unit should be described in a separate section rather than defined only within the definition of a property's value.
17:26:40 [sylvaing]
next issue: the mark element. I feel specifying this is out of scope for CSS. It is also not implemented
17:26:45 [sylvaing]
last issue: speak:none
17:26:55 [Ms2ger]
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17:27:40 [sylvaing]
danielweck: I think we should remove the none value from the speak property. whether something is spoken or not would be controlled elsewhere
17:27:43 [dbaron]
speak:none is more like visibility:hidden than like display:none
17:27:50 [ChrisL]
so, an audio equivalent of 'display', then?
17:28:01 [Ms2ger]
display:none should apply to audio IIRC
17:28:21 [fantasai]
17:28:57 [fantasai]
17:29:06 [sylvaing]
danielweck: semantically visibility:hidden is similar to opacity:0. whereas speak:none does not imply silence for that particular content
17:29:27 [sylvaing]
danielweck: we are really pruning the 'spoken tree'
17:29:36 [sylvaing]
dbaron: ok, but why do you need an additional property ?
17:30:09 [sylvaing]
dbaron: does display apply to speech ?
17:30:19 [sylvaing]
danielweck: it does but I don't think it's appropriate
17:30:40 [Zakim]
17:32:02 [sylvaing]
danielweck: I would rather have the ability to decide whether display affects speech
17:32:38 [plinss]
daniel, are you trying to call back in?
17:32:40 [bradk]
17:32:59 [Bert]
(You can always change the 'display' back in an @media rule, if they *do* need to be spoken.)
17:33:34 [dbaron]
yeah, so the proposal in 0483.html seems ok (though I'm not crazy about the names).
17:33:35 [danielweck]
no audio here
17:33:42 [dbaron]
danielweck, you dropped off the call
17:33:55 [dbaron]
danielweck, call in again?
17:34:06 [Zakim]
17:34:19 [danielweck]
zakim, ??P36 is me
17:34:19 [Zakim]
+danielweck; got it
17:34:27 [alexmog]
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17:34:49 [bradk]
I can't tab to links when they are in something with display:none.
17:36:53 [sylvaing]
fantasai: display hides an entire subtree. visibility can be overriden. there is no parallel for the latter in the speech module if it depends on display. if this scenario is important for speech then you would need another property similar to visibility
17:37:20 [sylvaing]
fantasai: and I don't think it should happen with speak:none
17:38:25 [sylvaing]
danielweck: one can achieve that using voice volume but you then have the aural equivalent of visibility:hidden where the quiet content still takes space
17:39:53 [sylvaing]
danielweck: so the first problem with speak:none is that it could be replaced with display:none. but there remains a need to allow speech even if the content is not displayed
17:41:14 [Bert]
(I'm reminded of <details> in HTML5: how to hide the element but show/speak its <summary> child.)
17:41:48 [fantasai]
(That's a good example.)
17:42:40 [bradk]
Volume = opacity?
17:43:15 [sylvaing]
szilles: the concern that hidden content would result in long pauses could be addressed with other markers such as a beep indicating missing content
17:44:10 [sylvaing]
danielweck: today we don't have any relationship between visibility:hidden and the aural rendering. but I'm in favor of indicating whether sometihng should be expected there
17:44:46 [sylvaing]
szilles: I think visibility:hidden should have implications in the aural space as well
17:44:59 [Zakim]
17:45:09 [alexmog]
zakim, ipcaller is alex
17:45:09 [Zakim]
+alex; got it
17:46:29 [smfr]
maybe we should take this discussion to the list
17:46:33 [bradk]
We want Skip links that render aurally, but are display:none visually, eh?
17:46:44 [fantasai]
17:47:11 [sylvaing]
szilles: the use-case I understand is that the underlying HTML includes nodes that are solely intended for speech only and I need a mechanism to allow them to be spoken even though they will never be displayed
17:47:35 [bradk]
Yeah, @media for that, I would think.
17:47:43 [Zakim]
- +39.524.9.aabb
17:47:51 [fantasai]
That doesn't solve the <details> case Bert was talking about
17:48:02 [fantasai]
display: none removes the entire subtree. If you want to override part of that, you can't
17:48:19 [bradk]
17:49:12 [Zakim]
+ +39.524.9.aadd
17:49:12 [sylvaing]
(speak:none discussion to be continued in the mailing list)
17:49:25 [sylvaing]
danielweck: any objections to removing the mark properties ?
17:49:46 [ChrisL]
I wonder if, instead of a single 'hidden' we need two values, 'silent' and 'skipped'
17:50:58 [bradk]
Can you post a Link to mark props?
17:51:15 [fantasai]
17:51:34 [ChrisL]
skipped is not possible currently except with display none whichalso prevents children overridding it
17:52:18 [bradk]
17:52:29 [sylvaing]
danielweck: I think mark duplicates an HTML feature and it is meant to generate events which should be out of scope here
17:53:48 [smfr]
17:54:49 [szilles]
+1 to remove
17:54:54 [sylvaing]
RESOLUTION: remove mark properties from CSS3 Speech
17:55:35 [sylvaing]
danielweck: as for phonemes, the arguments in favor of keeping it are good and the feature is well defined so I am happy to keep it
17:57:16 [sylvaing]
fantasai: I'd like to see an issue raised on the HTML side
17:57:43 [sylvaing]
bert: could you use the content property ?
17:58:02 [sylvaing]
danielweck: you would need intimate knowledge of your speech system to get the right value
17:58:15 [fantasai]
content: phonemes(...)
17:58:58 [sylvaing]
danielweck: but then you would replace content in the visual rendering as well
18:00:04 [Bert]
(Might be useful to distinguish Ian (eye-un) from Ian (ee-un) :-) )
18:00:23 [Zakim]
18:00:55 [fantasai]
<span id="tomato">tomato</span>
18:01:21 [smfr]
18:01:26 [Zakim]
18:01:51 [sylvaing]
szilles: so this is aural styling
18:02:19 [sylvaing]
danielweck: yes, you can bind a particular pronunciation - aural styling - to an element
18:02:46 [sylvaing]
danielweck: as opposed to choosing a general speech dictionary for the entire document
18:03:14 [ChrisL]
link rel="lexicon" would see to fix that for html
18:03:20 [fantasai]
danielweck explains that if you want to associate a pronunciation lexicon to the document, you use PLS. It will affect all words in the document. This allows changing one particular instance to be different from what's in the dictionary.
18:03:58 [Zakim]
18:04:37 [Bert]
(I guess we're out of time, but how about a *conditional* phonemes property: 'phonemes: "tomato" -> "...", "patato" -> "..."')
18:04:42 [sylvaing]
chrisl: there is a possible maintenance problem here where the stylesheet is out of synch with the content
18:04:48 [Zakim]
18:04:50 [sylvaing]
szilles: this issue already exists with the content property
18:05:13 [bradk]
Aural style sheet: #toe { content: "t\0252" }
18:05:21 [sylvaing]
plinss: we should take this issue back to the mailing list
18:05:54 [danielweck]
"the conference is restricted at this time"
18:05:55 [sylvaing]
szilles: I think we need to agree whether this is a styling feature; then what's the best way to assign the phonemes to the content
18:05:55 [danielweck]
damn !
18:06:33 [Zakim]
18:06:35 [Zakim]
- +39.524.9.aadd
18:06:36 [Zakim]
18:06:37 [Zakim]
18:06:39 [Zakim]
18:06:40 [Zakim]
18:06:40 [Zakim]
18:06:41 [Zakim]
18:06:43 [Zakim]
18:06:44 [dsinger]
18:06:45 [Zakim]
18:06:47 [fantasai]
Meeting closed.
18:06:47 [Zakim]
18:06:53 [Zakim]
18:07:11 [fantasai]
(Bert, that's handled by PLS)
18:07:25 [fantasai]
(Although if you want to change the mapping per-element, you might need something else ...)
18:07:37 [Zakim]
18:07:38 [Zakim]
Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has ended
18:07:40 [Zakim]
Attendees were plinss, arronei, fantasai, dsinger, johnjan, danielweck, kojiishi, dbaron, Bert, howcome, SteveZ, +34.60.940.aaaa, smfr, +39.524.9.aabb, cesar, +1.650.214.aacc,
18:07:43 [Zakim]
... TabAtkins, alex, +39.524.9.aadd
18:08:47 [fantasai]
danielweck: btw, did you catch ChrisL's comment about associating a lexicon in HTML?
18:09:22 [fantasai]
danielweck: you would use <link> with a particular 'rel' value. You just need to agree on and standardize the rel value.
18:09:36 [danielweck]
right, this would be useful, but doesn't address the per-element use-case
18:09:43 [fantasai]
18:09:44 [danielweck]
("element" in the broad sense)
18:10:05 [danielweck]
authors need a way to customize whatever the default pronounciation rule is
18:10:25 [fantasai]
danielweck: I think that should be handled in HTML
18:10:41 [fantasai]
danielweck: Just because there's an existing draft of a feature to handle this in CSS doesn't mean it has to be done in CSS
18:10:42 [danielweck]
(regardless of whether it comes from a PLS lexicon attached to the HTML document, or from the default TTS engine phonetics)
18:10:59 [fantasai]
danielweck: Has there been an issue raised against HTML for this?
18:11:06 [danielweck]
for PLS, yes
18:11:11 [danielweck]
(long time ago)
18:11:20 [fantasai]
danielweck: but not for this
18:11:22 [fantasai]
18:11:23 [danielweck]
18:11:31 [fantasai]
danielweck: I think that's the right way forward.
18:11:55 [danielweck]
why do you think it is not related to styling ? (what about the 'speak' property then ?)
18:12:49 [danielweck]
after all, it "styles" the audio output
18:13:03 [fantasai]
it's very specific to the content being styled
18:13:12 [fantasai]
I don't think it belongs in the style sheet
18:13:21 [ChrisL]
its not clear that an issue needs to be raised against html5. the list of rel values for the link element is open ended
18:13:23 [danielweck]
right, just like "speak" then. No ?
18:13:31 [fantasai]
ChrisL: For the lexicon, no
18:13:36 [fantasai]
ChrisL: but for phonemes, probably
18:13:43 [ChrisL]
18:14:07 [shepazu]
shepazu has joined #css
18:14:42 [fantasai]
danielweck: You're right that speak is close to that fuzzy boundary of style and content. If I change a word with its synonym, I don't need to update speak
18:14:51 [fantasai]
danielweck: s/If/Bug/
18:14:57 [fantasai]
18:15:09 [fantasai]
I see 'speak' being used like
18:15:18 [fantasai]
.productnum { speak: digits; }
18:15:26 [danielweck]
Fantasai: "it's very specific to the content being styled"---- I am trying to understand what you mean: the 'speak' property defines "how text should be spoken out" (spelling, etc), which is semantically equivalent to "styling in the aural dimension"
18:15:32 [fantasai]
.code { speak: literal-punctuation }
18:15:55 [danielweck]
I see phonemes pretty much in the same ballpark
18:16:14 [fantasai]
"how text should be spoken out" is "rendering in the aural dimension" not necessarily "styling in the aural dimension"
18:16:30 [fantasai]
speak keys off of the structure of the document and the semantics of the tagging
18:16:35 [fantasai]
not the actual content
18:16:47 [fantasai]
that's the key distinction here, to me
18:16:51 [danielweck]
18:19:57 [danielweck]
I'll revive the public discussion, hopefully we can articulate this issue to remove the "fuziness" of its definition. ;)
18:22:23 [fantasai]
wrt PLS
18:22:57 [fantasai]
I would suggest using "pronunciation-lexicon" or somesuch as a <link rel=".."> value
18:27:52 [danielweck]
18:27:53 [danielweck]
18:27:57 [danielweck]
18:28:52 [danielweck]
Ian Hickson says the keyword should be deployed first, then taken into consideration
18:28:56 [danielweck]
chicken and egg...
18:30:11 [Ms2ger]
Just add it to the wiki as a proposal
18:32:57 [fantasai]
danielweck: no, not really. Rel values do not need to be standardized through W3C in order to be used
18:33:03 [fantasai]
danielweck: They are defined as an extension mechanism
18:34:09 [fantasai]
danielweck: as Ms2ger says, just add it to the wiki as a proposal
18:34:35 [danielweck]
18:34:35 [danielweck]
Proposals should go here:
18:34:35 [danielweck]
18:34:36 [danielweck]
You'll need to write a spec first, and demonstrate that people are using the
18:34:36 [danielweck]
18:34:46 [danielweck]
Please let us know once this keyword is deployed, for reconsideration.
18:35:13 [fantasai]
18:35:23 [fantasai]
so you write the proposal and the spec for the proposal there
18:35:26 [fantasai]
and then people can use it
18:35:27 [fantasai]
no problem
18:35:41 [fantasai]
if it becomes popular enough, it might get added to the list in the HTML spec
18:35:47 [fantasai]
but it doesn't need to be there
18:36:16 [Ms2ger]
Or at IANA
18:36:43 [fantasai]
quite a few of the rel values in the official list started at
18:37:17 [danielweck]
I wonder how Nick Levinson (see bug comments) ended-up with a 177 pages specification, and yet failed to reach acceptance of the "pronunciation" keyword ??
18:37:47 [fantasai]
I have no idea
18:38:13 [fantasai]
given most values only have a one or two-sentence description...
18:38:23 [Ms2ger]
Maybe because of the length?
18:38:40 [danielweck]
18:39:12 [fantasai]
"Links to a pronunciation lexicon or other pronunciation resource for the current document. The resource type should be given by the type attribute" or somesuch seems mostly adequate to me...
18:39:35 [fantasai]
danielweck: what is EPUB doing wrt associating PLS files?
18:39:45 [Ms2ger]
The missing value default and invalid value default for the type attribute are ...
18:39:47 [Ms2ger]
18:40:00 [fantasai]
there aren't any
18:40:03 [fantasai]
you use the HTTP-returned type
18:40:30 [fantasai]
just like for every other link ;)
19:01:00 [danielweck]
@Fantasai EPUB3 allows authors to include a PLS file within the publication, which then applies to all the XHTML documents that the publication contains.
19:01:02 [danielweck]
19:01:15 [danielweck]
So we only reference a MIME-type
19:01:22 [danielweck]
not "rel" keyword is needed
19:01:48 [danielweck]
(association PLS-HTML is not on a per-document basis, but at the level of the publication as a whole)
19:02:59 [danielweck]
MIME type = application/pls+xml
19:04:20 [danielweck]
EPUB has a concept of "manifest", which lists all the files that belong to the publication
19:04:59 [danielweck]
19:04:59 [danielweck]
<item id="c1" href="chap1.xhtml"
19:04:59 [danielweck]
19:05:00 [danielweck]
<item id="f1" href="./images/cover.svg"
19:05:00 [danielweck]
media-type="image/svg+xml" properties="cover-image"/>
19:05:00 [danielweck]
<item id="f2" href="./images/fig2.jpg"
19:05:02 [danielweck]
19:05:04 [danielweck]
<item id="css" href="./style/book.css"
19:05:06 [danielweck]
19:05:08 [danielweck]
<item id="pls" href="./speech/dict.pls"
19:05:10 [danielweck]
19:05:12 [danielweck]
19:05:18 [danielweck]
(PLS file at the bottom, in this example)
19:32:36 [fantasai]
danielweck: are CSS files typically included that way instead of via <link> ?
19:32:52 [danielweck]
no, just PLS :)
19:33:06 [fantasai]
k :)
19:33:07 [danielweck]
(CSS apply to specific HTML files only)
19:33:12 [fantasai]
i see
19:33:29 [danielweck]
for example, an XHTML file for the TOC, one for each chapter, one for the bibliography, etc.
19:33:36 [danielweck]
PLS is global
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19:51:50 [danielweck]
(at top of list)
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20:09:20 [danielweck]
20:09:22 [danielweck]
bug re-activated
20:09:27 [danielweck]
(contacting the PLS folks now)
20:09:55 [danielweck]
(Daniel Burnett, also involved in SSML and Speech incubator group)
20:32:35 [danielweck]
For those interested in the whole HTML+PLS thing, see here:
20:32:38 [danielweck]
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