14:48:01 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #sparql
14:48:01 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2011/02/01-sparql-irc
14:48:03 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs world
14:48:03 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #sparql
14:48:05 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be 77277
14:48:05 <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see SW_(SPARQL)10:00AM scheduled to start in 12 minutes
14:48:06 <trackbot> Meeting: SPARQL Working Group Teleconference
14:48:06 <trackbot> Date: 01 February 2011
14:48:08 <LeeF> zakim, this will be sparql
14:48:08 <Zakim> ok, LeeF; I see SW_(SPARQL)10:00AM scheduled to start in 12 minutes
14:48:40 <kasei> hmm?
14:48:56 <LeeF> can you call me direct? 617-553-1060
14:49:27 <ocorby> ocorby has joined #sparql
14:52:22 <LeeF> http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/docs/tests/data-sparql11/bind/bind08.rq
14:55:29 <AxelPolleres> AxelPolleres has joined #sparql
14:56:08 <LeeF> TP1
14:56:10 <LeeF> TP2
14:56:16 <LeeF> OPTIONAL { TP3 }
14:56:18 <LeeF> TP4
14:56:24 <AxelPolleres> agenda: http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/wiki/Agenda-2011-02-01
14:56:47 <AxelPolleres> Zakim, who is on the phone?
14:56:47 <Zakim> SW_(SPARQL)10:00AM has not yet started, AxelPolleres
14:56:48 <Zakim> On IRC I see AxelPolleres, ocorby, Zakim, RRSAgent, karl, kasei, SteveH, AndyS, LeeF, iv_an_ru, pgearon, sandro, trackbot, ericP
14:56:59 <AxelPolleres> trackbot, start meeting
14:57:01 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs world
14:57:03 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be 77277
14:57:03 <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see SW_(SPARQL)10:00AM scheduled to start in 3 minutes
14:57:04 <trackbot> Meeting: SPARQL Working Group Teleconference
14:57:04 <trackbot> Date: 01 February 2011
14:57:10 <SteveH__> SteveH__ has joined #sparql
14:57:13 <cbuilara> cbuilara has joined #sparql
14:57:18 <AxelPolleres> chair: Axel Polleres
14:57:20 <Zakim> SW_(SPARQL)10:00AM has now started
14:57:27 <Zakim> +??P14
14:57:30 <AxelPolleres> regrets: Chime, AlexPassant
14:57:31 <AndyS> zakim, P14 is me
14:57:31 <Zakim> sorry, AndyS, I do not recognize a party named 'P14'
14:57:38 <AndyS> zakim, ??P14 is me
14:57:38 <Zakim> +AndyS; got it
14:57:42 <Zakim> +pgearon
14:58:03 <Zakim> +??P16
14:58:09 <cbuilara> zakim, ??P16 is me
14:58:09 <Zakim> +cbuilara; got it
14:58:13 <Zakim> +AxelPolleres
14:58:26 <Zakim> + +420.8.439.aaaa
14:58:32 <AxelPolleres> Zakim, who is on the phone?
14:58:32 <Zakim> On the phone I see AndyS, pgearon, cbuilara, AxelPolleres, +420.8.439.aaaa
14:58:41 <SteveH__> Zakim, aaaa is [Garlik]
14:58:41 <Zakim> +[Garlik]; got it
14:58:43 <Zakim> +ocorby
14:58:49 <SteveH__> Zakim, [Garlik] is temporarily me
14:58:49 <Zakim> +SteveH__; got it
14:58:51 <NicoM> NicoM has joined #sparql
14:59:20 <LeeF> Filter(Group(Bind(BGP(...) ...)))
14:59:49 <Zakim> +Lee_Feigenbaum
14:59:49 <bglimm> bglimm has joined #sparql
14:59:51 <AxelPolleres> Zakim, who is speaking?
14:59:53 <SteveH> Zakim, SteveH__ is me
14:59:53 <Zakim> +SteveH; got it
15:00:05 <Zakim> AxelPolleres, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: Lee_Feigenbaum (21%), AxelPolleres (21%), ocorby (4%)
15:00:12 <Zakim> +kasei
15:00:37 <Zakim> + +1.973.4.aabb
15:00:49 <kasei> scribenick: kasei
15:01:17 <AxelPolleres> Zakim, who is on the phone?
15:01:17 <Zakim> On the phone I see AndyS, pgearon, cbuilara, AxelPolleres, SteveH, ocorby, Lee_Feigenbaum, kasei, +1.973.4.aabb
15:01:45 <AndyS> zakim, who is speaking?
15:01:55 <Zakim> AndyS, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: Lee_Feigenbaum (22%), cbuilara (44%), AxelPolleres (9%)
15:02:08 <MattPerry> MattPerry has joined #sparql
15:02:10 <cbuilara> zakim, mute me
15:02:10 <Zakim> cbuilara should now be muted
15:02:22 <Zakim> +bglimm
15:02:33 <NicoM> don't see me on the list, but its not me
15:02:35 <Zakim> +sandro
15:02:41 <bglimm> Zakim, mute me
15:02:42 <NicoM> so aabb is not me
15:02:42 <Zakim> bglimm should now be muted
15:02:53 <Zakim> +MattPerry
15:02:56 <AxelPolleres> Zakim, who is on the phone?
15:02:58 <Zakim> On the phone I see AndyS, pgearon, cbuilara (muted), AxelPolleres, SteveH, ocorby, Lee_Feigenbaum, kasei, +1.973.4.aabb, bglimm (muted), sandro, MattPerry
15:03:17 <kasei> assign them all the work
15:03:28 <bglimm> +1 to kasei
15:03:33 <LeeF> :-D
15:03:43 <Zakim> - +1.973.4.aabb
15:04:06 <kasei> topic: admin
15:04:08 <NicoM> ok it was me, but don't have an us number...
15:04:21 <AxelPolleres> PROPOSED: Approve minutes at http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/meeting/2011-01-25
15:04:33 <AxelPolleres> nico, please re-dial...
15:04:33 <sandro> NicoM, yeah, CallerID sometimes behaves very strangely.
15:04:47 <AndyS> 404
15:04:49 <Zakim> + +49.911.973.4.aacc
15:05:00 <NicoM> zakim, +49 is me
15:05:00 <Zakim> +NicoM; got it
15:05:18 <AxelPolleres> ACTION: check minutes from last time
15:05:18 <trackbot> Sorry, couldn't find user - check
15:05:30 <AxelPolleres> ACTION: axel to check minutes from last time
15:05:30 <trackbot> Created ACTION-380 - Check minutes from last time [on Axel Polleres - due 2011-02-08].
15:06:17 <AndyS> http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/wiki/CommentResponse:JP-3
15:06:22 <kasei> AxelPolleres: haven't addressed comments table yet. if you've got feedback, let us know.
15:06:40 <kasei> ... please look over JP-3 so we can approve it.
15:06:49 <kasei> ... any other comment responses drafted?
15:07:15 <MattPerry> sure
15:07:23 <AxelPolleres> matt to scribe next week
15:07:35 <kasei> topic: to last call
15:07:42 <AxelPolleres> http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/wiki/To_Last_Call
15:07:44 <kasei> AxelPolleres: wiki page for last call
15:08:12 <kasei> ... query document status? Andy or Steve?
15:08:42 <kasei> SteveH: there's an outstanding issue about algebra. need to discuss with Andy. Other than that it's OK to go.
15:08:54 <kasei> AxelPolleres: should it be listed on the last call page?
15:09:03 <kasei> SteveH: don't know the specifics. hard to list it.
15:09:26 <kasei> AxelPolleres: keep us up to date on that page and let us know when it's ready for review.
15:09:52 <kasei> SteveH: hope to get it done this week, but hard to predict.
15:10:24 <kasei> AndyS: same position as SteveH. need to do some checking, discuss recent issues that came up this week.
15:10:32 <kasei> AxelPolleres: Update document.
15:10:47 <kasei> ... issues from Alex.
15:11:15 <kasei> ... for formal model we'll have a meeting and discuss this week. hope to have something there next week.
15:11:59 <AxelPolleres> http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/wiki/To_Last_Call
15:12:41 <kasei> pgearon: have addressed some of the items on the wiki page.
15:12:54 <kasei> ... bnodes in delete templates. delete and graph triples containing bnodes.
15:13:04 <kasei> ... done work on the document, but haven't checked it in yet.
15:13:21 <kasei> ... don't know the details of these issues yet.
15:13:40 <kasei> AxelPolleres: talked briefly with Alex. he said he'd take care of his comments.
15:13:51 <kasei> ... hope to have updates next week.
15:13:59 <kasei> AxelPolleres: protocol document.
15:14:00 <LeeF> No
15:14:09 <kasei> LeeF: no news.
15:14:20 <kasei> AxelPolleres: service description.
15:15:56 <kasei> kasei: new comment from Rob Vesse regarding both http protocol and service description.
15:16:44 <kasei> ... need to address the comment, but don't think it will result in substantive changes to SD document.
15:16:46 <AxelPolleres> ... comment by RV should be added to comments table, touches on both SD and HTTP update, more Chime to Greg?
15:17:20 <kasei> AxelPolleres: http protocol
15:17:40 <kasei> ... a few comments that need to be taken into account. can assign actions to reviewers.
15:18:04 <AndyS> Fine -  if Chime is OK with that.
15:18:14 <kasei> ... Andy, Steve, and Nick to review.
15:18:16 <AxelPolleres> ACTION: SteveH to review Uniform HTTP Protocol
15:18:16 <trackbot> Created ACTION-381 - Review Uniform HTTP Protocol [on Steve Harris - due 2011-02-08].
15:18:44 <AxelPolleres> ACTION: axel contact NickH to review Uniform HTTP Protocol
15:18:44 <trackbot> Created ACTION-382 - Contact NickH to review Uniform HTTP Protocol [on Axel Polleres - due 2011-02-08].
15:19:02 <AxelPolleres> ACTION: Andy to review Uniform HTTP Protocol
15:19:02 <trackbot> Created ACTION-383 - Review Uniform HTTP Protocol [on Andy Seaborne - due 2011-02-08].
15:19:05 <LeeF> :-)
15:19:22 <kasei> AxelPolleres: entailment document.
15:19:28 <bglimm> Zakim, unmute me
15:19:28 <Zakim> bglimm should no longer be muted
15:19:32 <kasei> ... two actions on Kendal and Zhe Wu.
15:19:38 <kasei> bglimm: haven't heard back on reviews yet.
15:19:54 <kasei> MattPerry: can pring Zhe about review.
15:19:59 <kasei> bglimm: can ping Kendall.
15:20:04 <bglimm> Zakim, mute me
15:20:04 <Zakim> bglimm should now be muted
15:20:07 <cbuilara> zakim, unmute me
15:20:07 <Zakim> cbuilara should no longer be muted
15:20:07 <kasei> AxelPolleres: Federated Query
15:20:09 <LeeF> Ready to go
15:20:20 <kasei> cbuilara: ready for review.
15:20:22 <AndyS> q+
15:20:30 <kasei> AxelPolleres: Lee and Axel to be assigned for review.
15:20:37 <kasei> AndyS: can we discuss where BINDINGS go?
15:20:49 <LeeF> My understanding is that it needs to be removed from federated query and just reference query
15:20:57 <AndyS> q-
15:21:30 <cbuilara> I will add a remark to the Fed query document saying that it will be removed
15:21:31 <Zakim> -NicoM
15:21:41 <sandro> zakim, who is talking?
15:21:43 <cbuilara> and left only in the main query document
15:21:51 <kasei> AxelPolleres: is there duplicate text in the two documents?
15:21:51 <Zakim> sandro, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: AxelPolleres (80%)
15:22:02 <Zakim> +NicoM
15:22:21 <kasei> cbuilara: duplicated text. idea was to remove it in the federation document.
15:22:35 <kasei> AxelPolleres: should be ready for review by end of today?
15:22:37 <kasei> cbuilara: yes
15:22:42 <AxelPolleres> ACTION: Axel to review fed query
15:22:42 <trackbot> Created ACTION-384 - Review fed query [on Axel Polleres - due 2011-02-08].
15:22:48 <LeeF> aye
15:22:53 <AxelPolleres> ACTION: Lee to review fed query
15:22:53 <trackbot> Created ACTION-385 - Review fed query [on Lee Feigenbaum - due 2011-02-08].
15:23:05 <kasei> AxelPolleres: JSON Results
15:23:11 <kasei> ... got reviews in already
15:23:23 <AndyS> No progress on comments
15:23:35 <kasei> AndyS: no progress on comments yet. been focusing on query document.
15:23:59 <kasei> topic: BIND revisted (bind08 test)
15:24:22 <kasei> LeeF: there was discussion on mailing list about bind08
15:24:35 <kasei> ... some confusion because of laxness in discussion of BGPs and Groups.
15:24:57 <kasei> ... think it is mostly resolved now. BINDs ends a BGP, doesn't end a Group.
15:25:21 <kasei> ... this means that bind08 test in which filter comes before bind has the same results as bind05 test where filter comes after the bind.
15:25:38 <kasei> ... updated the results in cvs today.
15:25:47 <kasei> ... believe all the bind tests are good now and can be approved.
15:26:01 <kasei> AxelPolleres: any more comments?
15:26:07 <AndyS> I agree with LeeF
15:26:44 <kasei> LeeF: can we approve the tests?
15:26:54 <kasei> AxelPolleres: will discuss in test status topic.
15:27:09 <AxelPolleres> topic: short name and title of JSON doc
15:27:16 <AxelPolleres> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2011JanMar/0140.html
15:27:20 <kasei> AxelPolleres: concrete proposal from Andy.
15:27:57 <kasei> ... keep same name; name it with same convention as others (starting with "sparql11")
15:28:05 <AxelPolleres> "SPARQL 1.1 Query Results JSON Format"      /sparql11-results-json/
15:28:31 <kasei> ... no other proposals. agreenment on option 2.
15:28:37 <kasei> ... anybody against this?
15:28:38 <LeeF> option 2 ++++
15:29:14 <AxelPolleres> PROPOSED: set title of JSON results document to "SPARQL 1.1 Query Results JSON Format" with short name  /sparql11-results-json/
15:29:15 <pgearon> seconded
15:29:30 <LeeF> :-)
15:29:39 <bglimm> +1
15:29:46 <AxelPolleres> RESOLVED: set title of JSON results document to "SPARQL 1.1 Query Results JSON Format" with short name  /sparql11-results-json/
15:30:01 <kasei> AxelPolleres: what do we need to do to approve the short name?
15:30:13 <kasei> sandro: this is FPWD?
15:30:18 <kasei> AxelPolleres: it's been out as a Note before.
15:30:36 <kasei> sandro: we should go through the FPWD approval. that's when the short name is approved.
15:30:47 <kasei> LeeF: FPWD has to be distinct from LC draft?
15:30:52 <kasei> sandro: no, they can be the same.
15:31:07 <kasei> ... not sure it's technically a FPWD, but err on the safe side.
15:31:36 <kasei> protocol?
15:32:09 <kasei> sandro: will send email.
15:32:28 <AxelPolleres> ACTION: sandro email to W3C to get shortname approved for JSON result doc
15:32:28 <trackbot> Created ACTION-386 - Email to W3C to get shortname approved for JSON result doc [on Sandro Hawke - due 2011-02-08].
15:32:45 <AxelPolleres> topic: Test status 
15:32:46 <kasei> topic: test status
15:33:12 <kasei> AxelPolleres: wanted to go through test case directories and see where we are.
15:33:32 <kasei> LeeF: as actions are completed, we'll discuss and move to approval.
15:33:41 <AndyS> q+ about manifest-all (at end of tests item)
15:33:50 <AndyS> q+ to talk about manifest-all (at end of tests item)
15:34:13 <kasei> AxelPolleres: ACTIONS 368...
15:34:44 <AxelPolleres> ACTION-367
15:35:00 <kasei> ... 367: json results format. added 4 test cases for json results format.
15:35:04 <AxelPolleres> http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/docs/tests/data-sparql11/json-res/
15:35:20 <kasei> ... ask people to review those. will discuss next time.
15:35:36 <kasei> ... 368: syntax tests on Andy. done.
15:35:49 <AxelPolleres> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2011JanMar/0117.html
15:36:20 <kasei> ... not sure if these test cases can be approved.
15:36:29 <kasei> LeeF: need at least one other set of eyes or implementation.
15:36:56 <kasei> AndyS: I hope they are comprehensive.
15:37:08 <kasei> LeeF: does this include negative syntax tests?
15:37:12 <kasei> AndyS: yes, a few.
15:37:40 <kasei> LeeF: one challenge here is other than Andy and Greg, none of us have implemented enough of 1.1 to use our implementations here.
15:37:56 <kasei> SteveH: dajobe's parser isn't too bad. long way from 100%, but does a lot.
15:38:03 <kasei> ... doesn't do property paths or subqueries.
15:38:09 <kasei> ... or (?)
15:38:24 <kasei> ... parser we use in 5Store is more complete, but don't implement much of it. can do syntax tests.
15:38:46 <kasei> LeeF: even if partial implementation, run it and then eyeball failures to see if it looks ok.
15:39:17 <kasei> AxelPolleres: need to rely on Greg and Andy's approval?
15:39:21 <SteveH> I will try to run it for raptor, but don't handle current test syntax
15:39:27 <kasei> AndyS: what about eric's?
15:39:50 <kasei> sandro: thought he had said something about updating it. did grammar work, but not sure about what else.
15:40:10 <kasei> sandro: will ping eric about syntax tests.
15:40:19 <AxelPolleres> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2011JanMar/0117.html 
15:40:29 <AxelPolleres> ... sandro will ask eric to look at those.
15:40:35 <AndyS> Negative tests matter more for SPARQL 1.1 as there are some explicit errors this time round.
15:41:06 <kasei> AxelPolleres: 369: property paths on mperry.
15:41:24 <kasei> AndyS: not sure minutes of propery paths meeting are achievable.
15:41:31 <sandro> (email to ericP sent)
15:41:37 <kasei> AxelPolleres: does this imply issues on last call documents?
15:41:44 <kasei> AndyS: this needs to be addressed before LC.
15:42:28 <kasei> AxelPolleres: 370: function tests on Greg.
15:43:29 <kasei> kasei: added several function tests, but more room for testing error conditions.
15:43:36 <kasei> AxelPolleres: 371: bind tests on Lee.
15:44:04 <kasei> LeeF: let's approve 8 bind tests.
15:44:26 <AxelPolleres> PROPOSED: approve tests bind01-bind08 in http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/docs/tests/data-sparql11/bind/
15:44:32 <SteveH> abstain (on the basis that I've not run them)
15:44:39 <LeeF> seconded
15:44:51 <kasei> LeeF: haven't run them.
15:45:01 <kasei> AndyS: keen for two implementations.
15:45:47 <kasei> kasei: I pass 7/8 of the tests.
15:46:20 <kasei> LeeF: if we wait for 2 implementations to pass all tests, we'll never approve the whole test suite.
15:47:01 <AndyS> seconded
15:47:17 <AxelPolleres> RESOLVED: approve tests bind01-bind08 in http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/docs/tests/data-sparql11/bind/
15:47:47 <kasei> AxelPolleres: LeeF will change manifests to mark as approved.
15:47:48 <AxelPolleres> ACTION: mark bind01-08 as approved in manifest file
15:47:48 <trackbot> Sorry, couldn't find user - mark
15:48:02 <AxelPolleres> ACTION: lee to mark bind01-08 as approved in manifest file
15:48:03 <trackbot> Created ACTION-387 - Mark bind01-08 as approved in manifest file [on Lee Feigenbaum - due 2011-02-08].
15:48:28 <kasei> AxelPolleres: 372: negation tests on Chime.
15:49:05 <kasei> AxelPolleres: 373: subquery tests on Axel. haven't touched them yet.
15:49:14 <kasei> ... 374: project expression tests on Lee.
15:49:17 <kasei> LeeF: nothing to report yet.
15:49:34 <kasei> AxelPolleres: 375: construct where tests on Axel. worked on these today.
15:49:44 <kasei> ... 6 tests for CONSTRUCT WHERE. small issues which have been fixed.
15:49:54 <kasei> ... Andy agreed with fixes.
15:49:57 <AxelPolleres> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2011JanMar/0162.html
15:50:19 <AxelPolleres> http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/docs/tests/data-sparql11/construct/
15:50:53 <kasei> AxelPolleres: only tested by copying construct template and running on systems with CONSTRUCT {} WHERE {}, not CONSTRUCT WHERE {}
15:51:19 <LeeF> ok with me
15:51:59 <AxelPolleres> PROPOSED: Approve testcases constructwhere01-06 in http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/docs/tests/data-sparql11/construct/
15:52:46 <AndyS> seconded
15:52:51 <AxelPolleres> seconded
15:53:04 <AxelPolleres> RESOLVED: Approve testcases constructwhere01-06 in http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/docs/tests/data-sparql11/construct/
15:53:17 <kasei> AxelPolleres: will mark them as approved.
15:53:28 <AxelPolleres> ACTION: Axel to mark construyctwhere01-06 as approved in manifest file
15:53:28 <trackbot> Created ACTION-388 - Mark construyctwhere01-06 as approved in manifest file [on Axel Polleres - due 2011-02-08].
15:54:00 <kasei> AxelPolleres: 376: BINDINGS tests on Carlos
15:54:04 <kasei> cbuilara: not much progress yet.
15:54:34 <ericP> ericP, acks mail from sandro
15:54:35 <kasei> AxelPolleres: aggregate tests which we haven't approved yet.
15:55:01 <AxelPolleres> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2011JanMar/0168.html
15:55:43 <kasei> AxelPolleres: aggregate tests from greg. disagreement between Greg and Andy on AVG, SUM that had to do with precision of results, encoding of exponents.
15:55:48 <kasei> ... not sure if it's solved.
15:56:04 <kasei> AndyS: recall the issue.
15:56:15 <kasei> AxelPolleres: please have a look at the email thread and let us know if we can proceed.
15:56:59 <kasei> AxelPolleres: 7 test cases which we already covered in October proposed to be approved, but no resolution (agg01-agg07)
15:57:13 <kasei> ... pending action 301 on Steve to look over test cases.
15:57:21 <kasei> ... if they're fine they can be approved.
15:57:44 <kasei> SteveH: hoping to have code to read manifest format. once that's done can run tests through 4store engine.
15:57:45 <AndyS> agg08 ("COUNT 8") uses non-key in expressions => required syntax error 
15:58:32 <kasei> AxelPolleres: agg08 had discussion about this being a syntax error. should be changed to a negative syntax test.
15:58:55 <kasei> ... could also be fixed. add agg08b.
15:59:03 <AndyS> ?? Delete the test - make sure its in the bad syntax suite
15:59:27 <kasei> AxelPolleres: all negative syntax tests go into the bad syntax suite?
15:59:39 <kasei> AndyS: might be easier to get through the test suite if the negative syntax tests are grouped together.
15:59:43 <kasei> ... no strong preference.
15:59:52 <LeeF> No strong preference either.
16:00:09 <Zakim> -MattPerry
16:00:19 <kasei> AxelPolleres: want 1-2 people to look at email and let us know how to move forward.
16:00:46 <Zakim> -Lee_Feigenbaum
16:00:48 <Zakim> -bglimm
16:00:48 <Zakim> -SteveH
16:00:49 <Zakim> -sandro
16:00:50 <Zakim> -pgearon
16:00:52 <Zakim> -ocorby
16:00:52 <Zakim> -AxelPolleres
16:00:54 <kasei> minutes publishing url? (I forget every time)
16:00:54 <Zakim> -NicoM
16:00:59 <Zakim> -cbuilara
16:01:01 <Zakim> -AndyS
16:01:07 <Zakim> -kasei
16:01:08 <Zakim> SW_(SPARQL)10:00AM has ended
16:01:08 <AxelPolleres> adjourned
16:01:09 <AxelPolleres> http://www.w3.org/2009/CommonScribe/
16:01:13 <Zakim> Attendees were AndyS, pgearon, cbuilara, AxelPolleres, +420.8.439.aaaa, ocorby, Lee_Feigenbaum, SteveH, kasei, +1.973.4.aabb, bglimm, sandro, MattPerry, +49.911.973.4.aacc, NicoM
16:01:24 <AxelPolleres> rrsagent, make records public
16:01:52 <kasei> thanks Axel
16:01:52 <AxelPolleres> greg, will you do the minutes? (I'll take care of last week's minutes in the meantime...)
16:01:57 <kasei> yeah
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18:14:50 <kasei> AndyS: around?
18:42:25 <AndyS> kasei
18:42:48 <kasei> i had a question abou the CONSTRUCT WHERE syntax in the grammar
18:43:36 <kasei> is there a reason TriplesTemplate is optional is the pattern?
18:43:49 <kasei> i.e. would anyone ever want to do CONSTRUCT WHERE {} (empty pattern)
18:44:07 <kasei> seems like a rather odd query to want.
18:47:43 <AndyS> It is odd but it's useful to not make special cases (code generation - it's easier to allow "nothing" operations).  Same for Update.  It would need yet-another-rule.
18:49:07 <kasei> i don't follow. why wouldn't it just involve changing the existing rule for the shortcut syntax to '{' TriplesTemplate '}' (drop the ? modifier)
19:27:49 <AndyS> The important point is the code generation.  Same happens with updat eBTW.
19:29:20 <kasei> I'm not understanding why this would be a problem. It's obviously a design decision, but are you saying it wouldn't be as simple as dropping the ? qualifier?
19:31:07 <kasei> also, can you explain what the syntax error in syntax-bindings-09.rq is?
19:31:09 <kasei> SELECT * { } BINDINGS ?x ?y { (1 2) (3) }
19:31:19 <kasei> does that second binding need 'UNDEF' as a second value?
19:47:00 <AndyS> Yes, it needs an UNDEF   (else is it "(3 UNDEF)" or "(UNDEF 3)")
19:47:09 <kasei> got it, thanks
19:48:02 <AndyS> Experience from users is that regularity helps those writing queries and updates by program.  print "{" ; print all list ; print "}" 
19:48:09 <AndyS> Most true for INSERT DATA
19:48:35 <AndyS> but I prefer that if INSERT DATA is like that, templates are like that.
19:48:38 <kasei> understood. still seems odd to me, but I can live with it.
19:49:53 <kasei> where did we end up on SELECT * used with grouping? allowable? syntax error?
19:50:38 <pgearon> I don't have a link, but I thought it was an error
19:50:50 <kasei> section 16.1 says its an error
19:51:00 <kasei> but it also says that select * "takes account of grouping"
19:52:19 <kasei> if it's an error, I think the group02 test is invalid.
19:53:05 <AndyS> group-02 is not in the manifest for that reason.
19:53:51 <kasei> oh. it's in the manifest file, but not linked from the manifest node.
19:54:14 <kasei> is there a reason not to fix it or remove it?
20:04:00 <AndyS> I'm neutral. Helps make the point, so remove when tests approved?  (/me thinks its a pointless error - it's well defined what happens by the scope rules).
20:06:32 <kasei> yeah, i really wish we had allowed using * with groups.
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