20:01:36 RRSAgent has joined #html-a11y
20:01:36 logging to http://www.w3.org/2011/01/31-html-a11y-irc
20:01:38 RRSAgent, make logs world
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20:01:40 Zakim, this will be 2119
20:01:40 ok, trackbot; I see WAI_PFWG(A11Y)3:00PM scheduled to start now
20:01:41 Meeting: HTML Accessibility Task Force Teleconference
20:01:41 Date: 31 January 2011
20:01:45 chair: Rich
20:02:05 agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-canvas-api/2011JanMar/0054.html
20:02:10 Meeting: HTML Canvas Accessibility Working Group
20:02:11 WAI_PFWG(A11Y)3:00PM has now started
20:02:19 +Gregory_Rosmaita
20:02:25 +Charles_Pritchard
20:02:54 +Rich
20:04:06 scribe: Gregory_Rosmaita
20:04:10 scribenick: oedipus
20:04:21 * latest draft of CanvasEditor.html: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-canvas-api/2011JanMar/att-0054/CanvasEditor.html
20:04:24 * latest draft of HTML_Canvas_Element.html: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-canvas-api/2011JanMar/att-0054/HTML_Canvas_Element.html
20:04:27 * latest draft of HTML_Canvas_2DContext20110123.html: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-canvas-api/2011JanMar/att-0054/HTML_Canvas_2DContext20110123.html
20:04:34 TOPIC 1: Status Report
20:05:00 RS: filed big bug against chromium that kept from accessing the DOM -- FSci got a "drop" with that progress
20:05:12 RS: DavidB trying to get feedbaack from mozilla this week
20:05:18 RS: contact Ben about API proposal?
20:05:29 CP: Benjamin Hawkes-Lewis -- replied to his email
20:05:36 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-canvas-api/2011JanMar/0052.html
20:05:57 from agenda: "Note: Benjamin appears to want to separate out caret and place it in James Craig's proposal so that it caret positioning (for magnification) can be used more broadly such as for SVG. Is this something we need to do?"
20:06:27 RS: sounds like he would like us to take caret and positioning out and separate -- can do if group decides that is path to follow
20:07:06 CP: need to review proposal more thuroughly -- some items could be taken care of with additional language -- integration with other docs are good, but don't want to swell proposal
20:07:27 RS: "adjust caret or selection position" rather than upper lefthand corner
20:08:00 RS: our API is only for Canvas 2D API -- not for SVG or other rendering strategies
20:08:21 RS: so question is does this sync with James Craig's UI Independence Proposal
20:08:37 RS: take out of this spec and put into JCraig's proposal or leave in draft text
20:09:14 CP: not sure -- canvas does exist independently outside of HTML -- would help of APIs directly acessible
20:09:28 CP: other proposals based on SVG schemes or HTML where outline more visible
20:09:34 RS: which proposals?
20:09:41 CP: diff between canvas rendering content?
20:09:46 RS: context associated with canvas
20:09:53 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-canvas-api/2011JanMar/att-0054/HTML_Canvas_2DContext20110123.html
20:10:07 CP: 2D spec something more "independent" of HTML
20:10:19 CP: where boundaries are has yet to be defined
20:10:34 RS: listed under HTML5 -- under dev.w3.org/html5
20:11:16 http://www.w3.org/html/wg/
20:11:27 CP: in canvas+javascript model needs a firm definition of canvas -- a lot of integration necessary
20:11:53 RS: at the moment, 2D context still listed as deliverable of HTML WG -- 20 january 2011 draft
20:12:20 CP: will email Doug S -- will be able to inform me
20:12:36 RS: see where adobe would want this -- rendering engine could run canvas on diff platforms
20:13:10 RS: have until 28 February 2011 to get proposals for caret stuff done for HTML5
20:13:24 TOPIC 1: Discuss Canvas 2D API caret positioning, blink rate, text extent
20:13:46 RS: ben's comment not applicable as long as canvas 2d api context is part of HTML5
20:14:14 RS: canvas element subjected to warping using CSS 3D warping -- seems a bit off topic
20:14:29 CP: noted that -- focus on what is in canvas 2d context api only
20:14:52 CP: maybe some text or phrase that integrates well with CSS specs -- terminology issue
20:15:08 RS: how to compute rectangle
20:15:33 RS: explained how to get positioning in reply to BHL's post
20:15:57 RS: explained best fit for drawing path -- seems basic -- do we actually need more text?
20:16:23 CP: will reply to rest of BHL's email to keep conversation going
20:16:28 RS: what does BHL want?
20:16:37 CP: DOM minor additions for clarification
20:17:09 CP: want to avoid defining a lot of things -- should be up to AT and UA implementation to decide what to do with info we are providing -- we provide the basic info to the AT so that AT can do better job
20:18:14 RS: ZoomText - magnifiers not able to detect when browser running directly to hardware -- no hooking for AT to see this -- sent of sample to Sean from AISquared and did not work (as expected) -- need second caret position -- programmatic API
20:18:34 RS: need someone to implement that -- google plans? add canvas sub-tree when works with JAWS?
20:18:53 CP: that was my understanding; posted to Webkit -- no issues on this -- everyone wants shadow DOM
20:19:07 CP: implementing shadow DOM method is a VERY QUICK INEXPENSIVE thing
20:19:23 CP: can get patch to google with method once get thorugh first steps
20:20:53 RS: magnifier vendors used to track bit blips and polylines from graphics engines -- due to way browsers now draw to screen, unable to capture drawing calls to fract the carets
20:21:15 proposed RESOLUTION: Canvas 2D Context - position must be programmatically determinable via API
20:21:36 proposed RESOLUTION: Canvas 2D Context - position must be programmatically determinable via API, based on UA supporting a11y services to drive caret tracking
20:22:20 proposed RESOLUTION: Canvas 2D Context - position must be programmatically determinable via API, based on UA supporting a11y services to drive caret tracking; need to do selection tracking as well; on mobile devices no vehicle to capture -- all need programmatic access
20:23:10 RESOLUTION: Canvas 2D Context - position must be programmatically determinable via API, based on UA supporting a11y services to drive caret tracking; need to do selection tracking as well; on mobile devices no vehicle to capture -- all need programmatic access
20:23:19 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/01/31-html-a11y-minutes.html oedipus
20:24:14 RS: if app draws to windows hardware directly will be invisible to SR and ScreenMag unless using AT services
20:24:51 CP: wanted to note that there is a reason to have CANVAS element in fallback -- show higher rez canvas element so not burry -- applies to "normal" browsers as well
20:25:13 CP: graphic rendering on CPU if API exposed, performance dramatically increased
20:25:59 CP: going to be pushback on stuff like "zoom" because they think in the CSS box -- apply a scale to get "perfect" zooming -- anything that exists outside of that from AT vendor not well received
20:26:32 CP: main issue isn't how define caret, but whether we do
20:27:08 CP: do we have an argument that works/consensus on caret tracking in canvas? drawFocusRing removes x,y tracking, so need caret to move proposal forward
20:27:48 CP: problem explaining why useful, more efficient -- put up use cases and scrreen shots but no feedback from mozilla or MS --that is a sticking point -- how to procede if that need isn't recognized
20:27:59 RS: set drawing tab, and...
20:28:11 CP: so far haven't heard "yes, we want selection rectangles"
20:28:24 RS: want to do based on a drawing path that exists?
20:28:58 CP: not exactly -- haven't expressed willingness to do at all -- i like the rectangle -- easy to implement and works -- only feedbackk so far from BHL
20:29:15 CP: why do you need this? what is use case?
20:29:35 CP: if get mozilla on board to say "yes" to rectangle...
20:30:27 CP: right now, IE9 is ahead of the game --
20:30:43 RS: need 2 implementations -- IE9 is one, if get chromium to support, then have 2
20:31:02 RS: if get chrome to say they support before 28 february 2011
20:31:33 TOPIC: Caret Blink Rate
20:32:03 RS: resistence to this -- privacy concerns? blink rate doesn't really reveal a lot about user and capabilitites -- don't see any issues with that
20:32:12 RS: do we want blink rate in spec?
20:32:38 RS: getting implementation so don't want to push things off until june timeframe (when JCraig can work on DI Independence proposal with DougS)
20:32:44 RS: property verus method
20:32:51 RS: properties in 2D api?
20:33:16 CP: no, not really -- has centers on all of its properties -- this will not have center -- canvas API follows CANVAS not DOM
20:33:39 RS: at this point do we want to have it return a value?
20:33:56 CP: leave as function for ease of implementation in many environments easier to do function call
20:34:06 CP: minor point -- important, but minor
20:34:27 CP: need accept caret point with height -- after that the rest is relatively easy
20:34:44 GJR: plus 1 to get/function
20:34:55 CP: prefer "get" function
20:35:02 [we 3 are in accord]
20:35:19 RS: BHL wants to avoid profiling and hard coding
20:35:27 RS: default value of 500 milliseconds?
20:36:02 CP: don't see problem with author defining blink rate if not set by user -- user setting of blink rate lost if use default
20:36:07 CP: don't think necessary
20:36:18 plus 1 to CP -- user control, not default setting
20:36:24 RS: leave as-is
20:36:48 RS: if anything below twice a second, can introduce a seizure, hence request for 500 mpbs
20:36:54 CP: is something for UAAG
20:37:18 RS: can modify section to start with user agent directive to default to 500 milliseconds
20:37:29 CP: UA might have minimum -- can return -1
20:37:36 RS: author doing drawing
20:37:48 CP: point for implementors to know about (seizure info(
20:37:55 RS: will modify section
20:38:18 RS: move into JCraig's proposal? don't know how will be accepted or by whom
20:38:32 CP: this needs to be stand alone canvas support
20:38:48 CP: address magnification in context of canvas accessibility -- no brainer
20:38:57 TOPIC: TextExtent
20:39:05 Benjamin's comment: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-canvas-api/2011JanMar/0050.html
20:39:30 RS: looks like an attempt to explain the need for text extent
20:39:44 RS: text extent versus caret position -- he is confused
20:39:57 RS: bug regarding TextExtent - -hixie asked for use case
20:40:09 CP: tried to post text to get reply
20:40:13 CP: no one bit
20:41:03 CP: tried to submit use case to BHL -- links to 2 span elements on first line, canvas on second line with fixes; and canvas on 3rd line without fixes to show all the items we are proposing -- can't caputre FocusRing in windows the way i wanted to do
20:41:12 RS: when you move to menu, focus disappears
20:41:22 CP: will try again
20:41:31 CP: was using ZoomText at time
20:42:13 CP: meant to be use case example -- if have idea hixie won't knock down out-of-hand, then can write any UI widget needed, but text is where pushback comes -- rebuttal, not argument
20:42:29 RS: address point of why need TextExtent for canvas?
20:42:52 CP: need so that i can position elements within a box -- can use 2 differently sized fonts on 1 single baseline
20:43:06 RS: need some text from CP -- where baseline is reference?
20:43:27 CP: not how i groked it, but can get text together
20:43:58 CP: when baseline info brought up in standards doc, have to use PNG file -- can't use code to show where baselines are -- when info not available VERY difficult
20:44:06 CP: will try again
20:44:16 RS: need to put response into bug itself
20:44:25 CP: will write some text for thwat
20:44:38 RS: if get text to me today, can make change today
20:45:06 TOPIC: Canvas: Initialization of resources (such as IFrame) in canvas
20:45:12 RS: waiting to hear from FrankO about that
20:45:32 CP: need consensus from Webkit and Mozilla
20:46:17 noVNC - VNC client using HTML5 Canvas: http://kanaka.github.com/noVNC/
20:47:25 RS: web based VM tied to web services -- getting all low level drawing calls being passed to canvas -- the only way to do is windows Terminal Serivces has no semantic info such as "here is the caret" -- not enough semaqntics to support A11Y
20:47:55 RS: can't process without services
20:48:01 CP: gain if used
20:48:24 RS: other way to do is have AT running on remote host
20:48:54 GTK client on HTML5 canvas: http://blogs.gnome.org/alexl/2010/11/23/gtk3-vs-html5/
20:48:55 have AT running on the web service, such as terminal or vnc
20:49:01 TOPIC: Positioning Information
20:49:17 RS: magnifiers need to know where text is on screen -- need for braille device, as well
20:49:57 RS: approaches: 1) use CSS to position things in shadow DOM or 2) layout engine map to a11y services layer; or 3) what IMAP does (X,Y positioning info on each DOM node)
20:50:04 RS: problem for text wrapping
20:50:52 CP: search for text on screen -- finds that upstream -- use selection API and modify shadow DOM with mark elements -- solid use case for mark elements
20:51:02 CP: when go through DOM know where canvas object is
20:51:14 CP: might work without recourse to IMAGEMAP
20:51:21 CP: drawFocusRing and mark
20:51:42 CP: brialle devices are a next step after address magnification
20:51:50 s/brialle/braille/
20:51:54 GJR: which CSS?
20:54:14 https://developer.mozilla.org/en/drawing_text_using_a_canvas
20:54:51 http://dl.dropbox.com/u/17337752/text-legibility-crop.png
20:54:55 http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/wiki/CSS/tactile_braille_and_haptic
20:55:40 CP: horizontal select box illustrated in http://dl.dropbox.com/u/17337752/text-legibility-crop.png -- UI widget in canvas that required a LOT of work to make look acceptable
20:55:52 RS: apply media types to content?
20:56:00 RS: do something to shadow DOM?
20:56:09 CP: need to tie in shadow DOM --
20:56:17 CP: need to enable select, too
20:56:41 RS: will follow up in bugzilla
20:57:10 RS: will look at blink rate and glossary stuff -- follow up on bug -- see what can do with google
20:57:22 RS: timeline for shadow DOM implementation by chrome?
20:57:36 CP: no definite timeline -- 28 February 2011 tight deadline
20:57:43 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/01/31-html-a11y-minutes.html oedipus
20:57:55 RS: DavidB promised feedback from mozilla
20:58:06 CP: extensive use of shadow DOM being contemplated by Mozilla
20:58:19 RS: a11y has so many cross-cutting applications that help everytone
20:58:39 -Charles_Pritchard
21:02:36 -Gregory_Rosmaita
21:02:38 -Rich
21:02:38 WAI_PFWG(A11Y)3:00PM has ended
21:02:40 Attendees were Gregory_Rosmaita, Charles_Pritchard, Rich
21:02:42 zakim, please part
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21:02:49 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/01/31-html-a11y-minutes.html oedipus
21:04:29 s/TOPIC 1: Status Report/TOPIC: Status Report/
21:04:32 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/01/31-html-a11y-minutes.html oedipus
21:05:42 s/Ben about API/Benjamin Hawkes-Lewis (hereafter BHL) about API/
21:05:44 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/01/31-html-a11y-minutes.html oedipus
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