- DRAFT - EOWG 28 Jan 2011


  1. [ad-hoc] Accessibility in education
  2. W3C website pages on user agents and authoring tools:
    1. Review analysis (to be updated)
    2. Discuss Agents draft page
    3. Discuss Authoring draft page
    4. Discuss Browser draft page
  3. [postponed] Initial brainstorms for possible upcoming work (and call for co-editors!)
  4. WAI-ARIA Last Call - reminder to bring any issues to EOWG for discussion


Sharron, Shawn, Shadi, Jennifer, Sylvie, Sandi, Emmanuelle, Liam, Helle, Jeanne
Ian, P


<shawn> shadi - wanns join to hear abotu CODE?

<sinarmaya> I think that I'm mute

<shawn> zakim who is here?

<sylvie> bad connection i try to call again

<Zakim> shawn, you wanted to ask about scope - beyond web?

<shawn> http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/owea/

Accessibility in Education

<shawn> saz; business case - explaining the market (to students)

<shawn> http://www.bis.gov.uk/e-accessibility

<scribe> scribe: shadi

<shawn> http://www.w3.org/WAI/EO/Drafts/4betaW3org/agents

W3C website pages on user agents and authoring tools

Liam: please be candid
... collected stuff already out there
... primarily by Tim Berners-Lee
... main goal is to get people interested in the sub-pages
... to make them compelling to readers
... and explain their importance
... then identified that there are things that apply to both browsers and authoring tools
... so took that in the main page and the sub-pages got shorter

Sandi: felt they are very engaging and emtional
... come from the heart
... contrast to other pages
... wondering if it needs to be grouped differently
... some people may not want to read it the way it is presented
... but i personally loved it

Liam: interesting point
... could be tweaked

Sandi: maybe shorter paragraphs or bullets
... not the content, just the presentation

Jeanne: loved it too
... but third paragraph may have negative impact on some readers
... may need a little work on that part but otherwise good

Shawn: other W3C pages on this level have 1-2 sentences at the top as a brief introduction
... mainly to send people to the more relevant sub-pages

Liam: certainly was something that concerned me
... supposed to be a navigation page but became a content page
... seemed important to inspire developers to go read this stuff
... typically developers may not recognize the importance at first
... inspired by the "accessibility page" which is also explanatory
... other idea is to structure by audience to address previous issue
... but that is not a popular technique in terms of usability

Shawn: let's explore that
... who are our audiences?
... tool developers
... people procuring tools
... policy developers

shadi: tool users?

<shawn> saz: tool users - you have other options

shadi: to educate them that there are options

Helle: agree with Shadi
... procurers are often not the users
... users may have other interests than the procurers

Liam: need to decide where we are going to direct people to
... we have specifications for the tool developers
... but not sure what to do with the other audiences
... unlee we want to write new resources

<shawn> Selecting and Using Authoring Tools for Web Accessibility http://www.w3.org/WAI/impl/software

Shawn: we have some old documents
... that could serve as drafts

Sandi: have discussion about security in UK
... need to educate responsible people on ICT requirements

Liam: so really, the basic question for the other audiences is "why should i use an atag or uaag complaint tool"?

Shadi: we have several specs at W3C
... maybe enough to just mention that there are standards
... even if non-techies will not follow these links

Liam: was concerned that it is getting too accessibility-centric

Shawn: starting a stub and people will probably add other specs to it

Liam: issue is the breadth of resources to link to
... bascially writing and reading makes the entire web

Shawn: WAI-ARIA has authoring and browser aspects

<jeanne> http://www.w3.org/TR/#tr_HTML_for_User_Agents

<shawn> Device Independence Authoring http://www.w3.org/TR/#tr_Device_Independence_Authoring

Shadi: maybe group or select a handful of specs that clearly relate to the user-side of things
... and send people to more exhaustive listings

Liam: or spec of the month?
... is there a full listing somewhere?

Sandi: difficulty getting official information about when a spec can be used
... not visible from the site right now

[side-discussion on example of WAI-ARIA]

Liam: could express in terms of "must", "should", and "could"

Shadi: think that this is relative
... should get people to judge relative importances for themselves

Shawn: need to identify what we can say to browser vendors, procurers, etc
... basically have two groups: developers and "users"
... want to catch them early and encourage them to keep reading

Authoring Tools and Social Media draft page

<shawn> http://www.w3.org/WAI/EO/Drafts/4betaW3org/authoring

Liam: had difficulty with this page
... many different types of "authoring tools"

<jeanne> Just a minor point - "The best authoring tools require less technical knowledge from their users" is unnecessarily controversial. I'm sure Eclipse would consider themselves a "best" authoring tool, but certainly is not easy to use for novices.

Browsers, media players, and other user agents

<shawn> http://www.w3.org/WAI/EO/Drafts/4betaW3org/browsers

Liam: tried to give some concrete examples of why this is important
... message important to all audiences

Shawn: what does a procurer get from this page?

Liam: issues that users may observe

Shawn: wonder if they get that far
... also not sure if they came through the bucket page

Liam: maybe flip "what" and "how"?

Shawn: basically to say "there are guidelines to follow" but more interestingly than that

Jeanne: not sure the examples added a lot
... not sure worth their effort

Liam: would love feedback on stronger examples

Sandi: maybe something about who is conforming
... not sure if this information exists

<sinarmaya> And example is HERA FFX ;-)

Jeanne: sometimes extensions to browsers help improve accessibility

<sinarmaya> is a accessibility review tool

<sinarmaya> sorry, but our server is out right now :(

Authoring Tools and Social Media draft page (revisited)

Shadi: just caution that extensions alone do not fix all accessibility issues

<jeanne> http://www.w3.org/WAI/AU/2011/ED-ATAG20-20110124/#def-Authoring-Tool

Shadi: maybe more descriptive rather than exhaustive listing?

Shawn: AUWG will provide an exhaustive listing
... might sometimes be enough to say "social media"

<Zakim> shawn, you wanted to say how abotu start with really simple example - even dialog box for alt

Shawn: example is quite advanced, wonder if you want a more basic one

WAI-ARIA Last Call

<shawn> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ig/2011JanMar/0003.html

<shawn> reminder to bring any issues to EOWG for discussion

Shawn: WAI-ARIA in last call
... let me know if you have comments
... or things for EOWG discussion

<sinarmaya> bye

<shawn> thanks for scribing shadi, i'll try to get someone to cleam them up

Summary of Action Items

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Found Scribe: shadi
Inferring ScribeNick: shadi
Default Present: +1.512.797.aaaa, Shawn, Shadi, +1.650.348.aabb, +500.008.aacc, jennifer, +, sylvie, sandi, Emmanuelle, Sharron, Liam, +44.453.946.aaee, Helle, Jeanne, +1.915.014.aaff, sinarmaya, +1.862.012.aagg
Present: Sharron Shawn Shadi Jennifer Sylvie Sandi Emmanuelle Liam Helle Jeanne

WARNING: Replacing previous Regrets list. (Old list: ...)
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Regrets: Ian P
Got date from IRC log name: 28 Jan 2011
Guessing minutes URL: http://www.w3.org/2011/01/28-eo-minutes.html
People with action items: 

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