IRC log of ua on 2011-01-27

Timestamps are in UTC.

15:54:49 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #ua
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logging to http://www.w3.org/2011/01/27-ua-irc
15:54:51 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, make logs public
15:54:51 [Zakim]
Zakim has joined #ua
15:54:53 [trackbot]
Zakim, this will be WAI_UAWG
15:54:53 [Zakim]
ok, trackbot; I see WAI_UAWG()11:00AM scheduled to start in 6 minutes
15:54:54 [trackbot]
Meeting: User Agent Accessibility Guidelines Working Group Teleconference
15:54:54 [trackbot]
Date: 27 January 2011
15:55:18 [JAllan]
Chair: JimAllan, KellyFord
15:58:44 [Zakim]
WAI_UAWG()11:00AM has now started
15:59:03 [JAllan]
regrets: kelly
15:59:03 [Zakim]
+ +1.512.206.aaaa
16:00:04 [sharper]
sharper has joined #ua
16:00:16 [sharper]
zakim, code?
16:00:16 [Zakim]
the conference code is 82941 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.26.46.79.03 tel:+44.203.318.0479), sharper
16:04:27 [Zakim]
+ +1.617.325.aabb
16:05:01 [Greg]
Greg has joined #ua
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+ +1.425.895.aacc
16:06:08 [Greg]
zakim, aacc is me
16:06:08 [Zakim]
+Greg; got it
16:07:00 [JAllan]
zakim, aaaa is me
16:07:00 [Zakim]
+JAllan; got it
16:07:20 [KimPatch]
KimPatch has joined #ua
16:20:52 [sharper]
Is this because th phone lines aren't working?
16:20:57 [JAllan]
we are currently discussing the override of autoplay in video, and how that might happen. greg is writing it up now
16:21:21 [JAllan]
it is possible that phone lines aren't working.
16:21:26 [sharper]
ringing
16:21:57 [Zakim]
+??P1
16:22:22 [sharper]
zakim, ??P1 is sharper
16:22:22 [Zakim]
+sharper; got it
16:23:04 [Greg]
We're discussing Autoplay, which came up in the HTML5 WG discussions. The question is, a user agent has implemented the ability to turn off autoplay (as required by UAAG20), but if a script implements autoplay directly, whose responsibility is it to make sure that autoplay doesn't happen? Greg suggested that whether autoplay is enabled or disabled in browser user preferences should be made...
16:23:05 [Greg]
...programmatically available to scripts as well as extensions and plug-ins, so that they can follow the user preference. Jim asked if the browser could simply refuse to play media when a script attempts to start it on load, but Greg's not sure that the user agent can distinguish that from attempts to start the media in response to some explitic user request. Providing a way for the script...
16:23:07 [Greg]
...to follow the browser's user preference settings also has the benefit of (if implemented correctly) stopping autoplay when done using media other than the HTML5 native media (e.g. flash).
16:28:17 [JAllan]
http://www.w3.org/WAI/UA/2010/ED-IMPLEMENTING-UAAG20-20101215/
16:30:09 [Zakim]
-sharper
16:30:52 [Zakim]
-JAllan
17:22:11 [Greg]
Kim and I are discussing tools that are useful for analyzing user agent behavior. One I find extremely useful on Windows is the Inspect tool (AKA Inspect Object) in the Microsoft Active Accessibility SDK. You can find it at least the most recent version on http://blogs.msdn.com/b/winuiautomation/archive/2009/06/03/windows-automation-api-sdk-tools.aspx.
17:22:52 [Greg]
I'm not sure if that version is limited to Windows 7 or, like earlier versions, will work on any version of Windows with MSAA support.
17:44:26 [JAllan]
Mozilla also has something similar. dom inspector - http://kb.mozillazine.org/DOM_Inspector,
17:45:07 [JAllan]
and Firebug - https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/firebug/
17:57:49 [Zakim]
+JAllan
17:58:25 [jeanne]
jeanne has joined #ua
17:58:58 [Zakim]
+Jeanne
18:00:44 [JAllan]
agenda+ What do enabled elements mean?
18:01:43 [JAllan]
agenda+ writing EIR 5.2.x
18:02:08 [JAllan]
agenda+ writing EIR 1.11.2
18:11:29 [JAllan]
discussion of F6 behavior in Firefox
18:11:51 [JAllan]
need a clear focus indicator
18:12:42 [sharper]
zakim, code?
18:12:42 [Zakim]
the conference code is 82941 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.26.46.79.03 tel:+44.203.318.0479), sharper
18:16:46 [Zakim]
+??P15
18:16:55 [sharper]
zakim, ??P15 is sharper
18:16:55 [Zakim]
+sharper; got it
18:22:15 [sharper]
scribe: Harper_Simon
18:22:16 [sharper]
ScribeNick: sharper
18:22:35 [sharper]
zakim, present?
18:22:35 [Zakim]
I don't understand your question, sharper.
18:22:58 [sharper]
zakim, who is here?
18:22:58 [Zakim]
On the phone I see +1.617.325.aabb, Greg, JAllan, Jeanne, sharper
18:22:59 [Zakim]
On IRC I see jeanne, KimPatch, Greg, sharper, Zakim, RRSAgent, JAllan, trackbot
18:23:02 [JAllan]
zakim,open item 1
18:23:02 [Zakim]
agendum 1. "What do enabled elements mean?" taken up [from JAllan]
18:24:14 [JAllan]
1.3.1 Highlighted Items: The user can specify that the following be highlighted so that each class is uniquely distinguished. It is not the intention that all recognized enabled elements be uniquely distinguished, just that they be distinguished from disabled elements.
18:24:45 [sharper]
GL: 1.3.1 Includes selection and focus etc - problem is recog enables elements - definition is unclear
18:25:12 [sharper]
GL: beyond just selection and performing action on selection
18:26:12 [sharper]
GL: Push button should be highlighted - listbox - do you want listbox to be highlighted or just items or both
18:26:54 [sharper]
GL: current wording is just about menus defined as part of content - question is - what is our end goal
18:28:09 [sharper]
KP: whats the top level - things that you have too - one of the place that the enable elements appears - therefore too broad - we only want to include useful things
18:28:52 [sharper]
enabled element, disabled element
18:28:52 [sharper]
An element with associated behaviors that can be activated through the user interface or through an API. The set of elements that a user agent enables is generally derived from, but is not limited to, the set of elements defined by implemented markup languages. A disabled element is a potentially enabled element that is not currently available for activation (e.g., a "grayed out" menu item).
18:29:26 [Greg]
http://www.w3.org/WAI/UA/2010/ED-UAAG20-20101215/#def-enabled-element
18:33:18 [sharper]
General discussion of the semantics and operation of radio buttons and check boxes to get some more insight into the meaning we are associating with enable.
18:34:22 [Greg]
# ntent of Success Criterion 1.3.1 (former 3.5.1):
18:34:24 [Greg]
Users need to be able to easily discover what web content they can interact with. Users with low vision need to be able to highlight selection, content focus, enabled elements and links (including recently visited links) in order to successfully discover and interact with the web content.
18:34:26 [Greg]
# Examples of Success Criterion 1.3.1 (former 3.5.1):
18:34:27 [Greg]
* A web site uses styles to override visited link color. A low vision user wants to know what links have yet to be explored. The user agent provides a dialog box for setting overrides to author-selected link colors.
18:34:29 [Greg]
* An author has created a web site with CSS styles that removes the content focus outline. The user agent provides a dialog box for setting overrides to authors CSS focus outline declaration.
18:37:06 [Greg]
Change the first example to "Thomas has low vision and difficulty distinguishing between closely related colors. A web site uses styles to override visited link color in a way which makes it impossible for him to distinguish between visited and unvisited links. As he wants, like most users, to know what links have yet to be explored, he users a dialog provided by the user agent to override...
18:37:07 [Greg]
...the author-selected link colors."
18:39:25 [Greg]
Fred has difficulty with short-term memory, so it's very important to him to be able to tell which links he has already explored and which he hasn't. A web site's author uses styles to completely hide the distinction between visited and unvisited links, so Fred uses the browser's user preference settings to force all visited links to be one color and all unvisited links another color."
18:39:53 [JAllan]
don't need to highlight all enabled elements at one time, only when they receive focus.
18:39:55 [JAllan]
want the highlight classes to be distinguishable from each other.
18:41:22 [Greg]
Yes, the list of highlighted classes should include links that have not been recently visited, to make it clear that visited and unvisited should be distinguished.
18:42:22 [JAllan]
user should be able to tell which elements are actionable and which are purely decorative
18:43:51 [JAllan]
link underlining vs link just in a different color
18:45:11 [sharper]
General Discussion: Aspects of which part of the highlighting will make the interface really cluttered.
18:45:27 [JAllan]
most web pages make it clear which items are clickable (links, form controls)
18:45:47 [sharper]
GL: this would be optional to turn on and off so it could be left as is.
18:46:57 [JAllan]
blue border for actionable images
18:47:44 [JAllan]
author must do more work border=0 for images that are anchors
18:47:54 [Greg]
If an option to highlight clickable items was turned on, the UAAG20 document would only have one change: the W3C icon would get a border identifying it as a link. On the other hand, Google Docs would have a huge number of highlighted items--everything on its custom menu bar and tool bar, etc.
18:48:27 [JAllan]
sh: doesn't seem to be as relevant now, folks seem to 'recognize' actionalbe elements
18:48:54 [JAllan]
js: cites neilson research
18:49:30 [JAllan]
kp: need granularity in what to highlight, only link text, only link images, both, etc.
18:50:55 [sharper]
JA: miss match in sentiment between content in the Intent criteria and interface in the sc
18:53:14 [Greg]
I think we could distinguish between "must have" (Level A) vs. lower priority items. Many browsers already allow you to override the author-provided colors, and so make visited and unvisited links clearly distinguishable; I would consider that a must have. Similarly selection is nearly always clearly distinguished, but some web pages do make it so subtle as to be difficult to use. Overriding...
18:53:16 [Greg]
...that, too, I'd say is a must have, in part because it's usually already supported. On the other hand, highlighting all active elements is not generally done today, so we could reduce it's priority or delete it if no one does it.
18:54:07 [JAllan]
sh: assumption that things are enabled unless otherwise indicated (low lighted - greyed out)
18:54:53 [Greg]
Highlighting all recognized enabled elements and highlighting things with alternative content could be split out and reduced in priority.
18:56:39 [Greg]
1.3 Provide highlighting for selection, active keyboard focus, visited and unvisited links
18:56:40 [Greg]
1.3.1 (former 3.5.1) Highlighted Items: The user can specify that the following be highlighted so that each class is uniquely distinguished. It is not the intention that all recognized enabled elements be uniquely distinguished, just that they be distinguished from disabled elements. The user has the option to highlight the following classes of information so that each is uniquely distinguished. (
18:56:42 [Greg]
Level A) :
18:56:44 [Greg]
* (a) selection
18:56:45 [Greg]
* (b) active keyboard focus (indicated by a cursor)
18:56:47 [Greg]
* (c) active window
18:56:49 [Greg]
* (d) recently visited links
18:56:50 [Greg]
* (e) links that have not been recently visited
18:57:15 [JAllan]
sh: why highlight only enabled element, why not just disabled elements
18:59:27 [JAllan]
... how does anybody know when anything is enabled.
19:00:08 [Greg]
Simon points out that the user agent may not be able to tell which items are enabled or disabled if it's implemented in the element's event handlers.
19:00:48 [Greg]
The current 1.3.1 though does limit it to "recognized" enabled elements.
19:01:06 [Greg]
Recognized means programmatically determinable by the user agent.
19:01:51 [JAllan]
... if something has an onclick event, how does user know. this is disabled until the user does X that causes Y to be enabled
19:02:52 [JAllan]
most users won't be able to tell about items with events, it is up to the author.
19:03:22 [JAllan]
can UAs highlight elements with events
19:04:11 [Greg]
Simon suggests the terms enabled and disabled are misleading here because the browser can tell whether something processes clicks and keys, but not whether it is currently in a state where it will perform an action--that is, when the enabled/disabled is handled in scripts.
19:06:56 [Greg]
Anything the user can click on to perform an action, or give the keyboard focus to, which might include anything the browser sees as having mouse or keyboard event handlers.
19:08:16 [Greg]
It is however important to distinguish between things that user can perform an action on directly vs. things the user can select and thereafter perform an action on the selection. For example, a block of text allows users to select some, bring up the context menu for that selection, or simply hit s key to copy that selection to the clipboard, but we don't feel that a block of text would be...
19:08:18 [Greg]
...considered actionable/clickable/whatever.
19:08:47 [Greg]
We could invent a new term such as "actionable" element, distinguished from "enabled", for this purpose.
19:09:34 [sharper]
JA: GL and KP to take this from here
19:10:46 [Greg]
action: Greg to write discussion of replacing the term "enabled element" as used in 1.3.1 Highlighted Items.
19:10:46 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-489 - Write discussion of replacing the term "enabled element" as used in 1.3.1 Highlighted Items. [on Greg Lowney - due 2011-02-03].
19:10:57 [sharper]
zakim, close item 1
19:10:57 [Zakim]
agendum 1, What do enabled elements mean?, closed
19:10:58 [Zakim]
I see 2 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
19:11:00 [Zakim]
2. writing EIR 5.2.x [from JAllan]
19:11:17 [JAllan]
update: autoplay http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2011JanMar/0025.html
19:11:22 [sharper]
JA Update on Autoplay
19:12:24 [sharper]
JA: Opera say it can be done, browser can detect if the event comes from user to script and can set a preference to disable those to make sure they only happen on user interaction - would prefer this to be a prefs.
19:14:08 [sharper]
zakim, take up item 2
19:14:08 [Zakim]
agendum 2. "writing EIR 5.2.x" taken up [from JAllan]
19:14:43 [JAllan]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2011JanMar/0024.html
19:14:46 [sharper]
5.2.1 Web-Based Accessible: User agent user interfaces that are rendered using Web standard technologies conform to the relevant WCAG Level: "A", "AA", "AAA". (Level A)
19:22:28 [JAllan]
action: Jeanne to add the following to implementing for 5.2
19:22:29 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-490 - Add the following to implementing for 5.2 [on Jeanne Spellman - due 2011-02-03].
19:23:20 [JAllan]
* Intent of Success Criterion 5.2.x :
19:23:21 [JAllan]
Web-based applications which are intended to replace or enhance a
19:23:23 [JAllan]
desktop user agent or its functionality, but are in-fact built and
19:23:24 [JAllan]
rendered using standard Web technologies, are becoming increasingly
19:23:26 [JAllan]
common. These Web applications, windowless browsers, rich internet
19:23:27 [JAllan]
applications, HTML5 canvas, etc., perform similar functions to their
19:23:29 [JAllan]
desktop cousins and so must also conform to the accessibility
19:23:30 [JAllan]
requirements placed on a desktop user agent.
19:23:32 [JAllan]
* Examples of Success Criterion 5.2.x
19:23:33 [JAllan]
Success criteria 2.5.1 requires that a user agent enable a user to
19:23:35 [JAllan]
change settings that impact accessibility. In this case we would expect
19:23:36 [JAllan]
that a Web-Based user agent should also enable a user to change
19:23:38 [JAllan]
accessibility settings specific to its functionality, which may in some
19:23:39 [JAllan]
cases enhance or override that of the platform on which it is executing:
19:23:41 [JAllan]
window-less browser, native operating system, etc.
19:23:43 [JAllan]
* Related Resources for Success Criterion 5.2.x
19:23:45 [JAllan]
WAI-ARIA 1.0 User Agent Implementation Guide
19:23:46 [JAllan]
W3C Web Design and Applications Activity.
19:26:31 [Greg]
Greg has left #ua
19:26:32 [sharper]
zakim, close item 2
19:26:32 [Zakim]
agendum 2, writing EIR 5.2.x, closed
19:26:33 [Zakim]
I see 1 item remaining on the agenda:
19:26:35 [Zakim]
3. writing EIR 1.11.2 [from JAllan]
19:26:38 [sharper]
zakim, take up item 3
19:26:38 [Zakim]
agendum 3. "writing EIR 1.11.2" taken up [from JAllan]
19:26:56 [JAllan]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2011JanMar/0023.html
19:27:21 [Greg]
Greg has joined #ua
19:27:43 [JAllan]
rrsagent, make minutes
19:27:43 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/01/27-ua-minutes.html JAllan
19:28:28 [sharper]
rrsagent, make logs public
19:28:37 [sharper]
rrsagent, draft minutes
19:28:37 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/01/27-ua-minutes.html sharper
19:29:53 [sharper]
JA: only sc in 1.11 and it is aaa - problem
19:35:19 [Greg]
So, since 1.8.6 Open on Request allows the user to prevent a link from opening in a new viewport, it may not be necessary to provide an indication of whether a link is supposed to open in a new viewport.
19:36:21 [Greg]
Simon points out that 1.8.5 Viewport History would create a security hole if the browser has to restore confidential information when the user presses the Back button.
19:37:49 [Greg]
1.8.5 does not require restoring the contents of form controls and the like, only point of regard, input focus, and selection. But it is somewhat ambiguous.
19:38:52 [Greg]
I agree with Simon that we should probably revise 1.8.5 to make security precautions explicitly allowed.
19:39:48 [JAllan]
action: jim to rewrite 1.8.5 to include exception for financial or other web application criteria (can't go back or charge credit card twice)
19:39:48 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-491 - Rewrite 1.8.5 to include exception for financial or other web application criteria (can't go back or charge credit card twice) [on Jim Allan - due 2011-02-03].
19:40:39 [JAllan]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2011JanMar/0023.html
19:43:32 [JAllan]
sh: instead of technology type, say whats going to happen when you follow the link, instead of mimetype is pdf, say i am going to download a file
19:44:10 [JAllan]
... would be nice to know how big a file is
19:44:36 [JAllan]
... would be useful to know the size,
19:45:22 [JAllan]
... want to know ... opening a text file, download a file, it will take X long.
19:45:58 [JAllan]
... only in instance where something different than opening a web page will happen
19:46:52 [JAllan]
action: simon to rewrite 1.11.2 to include (perhaps) size and behavior indicator.
19:46:52 [trackbot]
Sorry, amibiguous username (more than one match) - simon
19:46:52 [trackbot]
Try using a different identifier, such as family name or username (eg. sharper, spieters)
19:47:12 [JAllan]
action: sharper to rewrite 1.11.2 to include (perhaps) size and behavior indicator.
19:47:12 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-492 - Rewrite 1.11.2 to include (perhaps) size and behavior indicator. [on Simon Harper - due 2011-02-03].
19:49:14 [sharper]
rrsagent, make logs public
19:49:14 [sharper]
rrsagent, draft minutes
19:49:14 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/01/27-ua-minutes.html sharper
19:50:50 [sharper]
zakim, please part
19:50:50 [Zakim]
leaving. As of this point the attendees were +1.512.206.aaaa, +1.617.325.aabb, +1.425.895.aacc, Greg, JAllan, sharper, Jeanne
19:50:50 [Zakim]
Zakim has left #ua
19:50:58 [sharper]
rrsagent, draft minutes
19:50:58 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/01/27-ua-minutes.html sharper
19:51:42 [sharper]
rrsagent, please part
19:51:42 [RRSAgent]
I see 5 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2011/01/27-ua-actions.rdf :
19:51:42 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: Greg to write discussion of replacing the term "enabled element" as used in 1.3.1 Highlighted Items. [1]
19:51:42 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2011/01/27-ua-irc#T19-10-46
19:51:42 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: Jeanne to add the following to implementing for 5.2 [2]
19:51:42 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2011/01/27-ua-irc#T19-22-28
19:51:42 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: jim to rewrite 1.8.5 to include exception for financial or other web application criteria (can't go back or charge credit card twice) [3]
19:51:42 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2011/01/27-ua-irc#T19-39-48
19:51:42 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: simon to rewrite 1.11.2 to include (perhaps) size and behavior indicator. [4]
19:51:42 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2011/01/27-ua-irc#T19-46-52
19:51:42 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: sharper to rewrite 1.11.2 to include (perhaps) size and behavior indicator. [5]
19:51:42 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2011/01/27-ua-irc#T19-47-12
19:51:43 [Greg]
Greg has left #ua