IRC log of lld on 2011-01-27

Timestamps are in UTC.

14:51:27 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #lld
14:51:27 [RRSAgent]
logging to
14:51:34 [antoine]
rrsagent, bookmark
14:51:34 [RRSAgent]
14:51:46 [antoine]
zakim, this will be lld
14:51:46 [Zakim]
ok, antoine; I see INC_LLDXG()10:00AM scheduled to start in 9 minutes
14:51:54 [antoine]
Meeting: LLD XG
14:52:44 [antoine]
Chair: Tom
14:52:50 [Zakim]
INC_LLDXG()10:00AM has now started
14:52:52 [Zakim]
14:53:01 [TomB]
zakim, ??P41 is TomB
14:53:01 [Zakim]
+TomB; got it
14:53:15 [Zakim]
14:53:17 [Zakim]
14:53:17 [Zakim]
14:53:27 [antoine]
zakim, ??P42 is me
14:53:27 [Zakim]
+antoine; got it
14:54:00 [antoine]
14:54:32 [Asaf]
Asaf has joined #lld
14:55:31 [antoine]
Regrets: Kim, Jeff, Guenther, Alexander, Lars
14:55:44 [Zakim]
+ +
14:55:56 [pmurray]
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14:55:57 [antoine]
rrsagent, please make record public
14:56:55 [rsinger]
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14:56:55 [Zakim]
14:57:15 [markva]
markva has joined #lld
14:57:22 [Zakim]
+ +1.404.892.aabb
14:57:31 [antoine]
zakim, ??P44 is markva
14:57:31 [Zakim]
+markva; got it
14:57:31 [pmurray]
zakim, aabb is me
14:57:33 [Zakim]
+pmurray; got it
14:57:43 [pmurray]
zakim, mute me
14:57:43 [Zakim]
pmurray should now be muted
14:57:55 [Zakim]
+ +1.423.463.aacc
14:58:06 [antoine]
rrsagent, please draft minutes
14:58:06 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate antoine
14:58:14 [antoine]
zakim, aacc is rsinger
14:58:14 [Zakim]
+rsinger; got it
14:58:27 [Zakim]
14:58:38 [Asaf]
Hi. Still no microphone. :(
14:58:48 [antoine]
14:58:55 [GordonD]
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14:58:57 [Zakim]
14:59:25 [rsinger]
Asaf: taking the "better seen and not heard" axiom to a new high
14:59:40 [antoine]
zakim, ??P51 is uldis
14:59:40 [Zakim]
+uldis; got it
14:59:42 [Asaf]
rsinger: heh :)
15:00:52 [Asaf]
right :(
15:01:18 [ksclarke]
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15:01:20 [jneubert]
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15:01:21 [pmurray]
Yes, I'm here.
15:01:26 [pmurray]
zakim, unmute me
15:01:26 [Zakim]
pmurray should no longer be muted
15:01:31 [uldis]
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15:01:46 [uldis]
hi! uldis here
15:01:50 [pmurray]
zakim, mute me
15:01:50 [Zakim]
pmurray should now be muted
15:01:53 [TomB]
Scribe: pmurray
15:01:55 [edsu]
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15:01:59 [michaelp]
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15:01:59 [TomB]
Scribenick: pmurray
15:02:01 [Zakim]
15:02:12 [Zakim]
+ +1.330.289.aadd
15:02:21 [antoine]
zakim, IPcaller is GordonD
15:02:21 [Zakim]
+GordonD; got it
15:02:23 [Zakim]
+ +1.614.764.aaee
15:02:32 [Zakim]
+ +49.4.aaff
15:02:35 [antoine]
zakim, aadd is marcia
15:02:36 [Zakim]
+marcia; got it
15:02:43 [marcia]
marcia has joined #lld
15:02:46 [antoine]
zakim, aaee is michaelp
15:02:46 [Zakim]
+michaelp; got it
15:02:55 [Zakim]
15:02:57 [pmurray]
TOPIC: Admin
15:02:59 [edsu]
Zakim, LC is edsu
15:03:00 [Zakim]
+edsu; got it
15:03:33 [marcia]
zakim, mute me
15:03:33 [Zakim]
marcia should now be muted
15:03:50 [antoine]
zakim, who is here?
15:03:50 [Zakim]
On the phone I see TomB, antoine, emma, markva (muted), pmurray (muted), rsinger, Asaf, uldis, GordonD (muted), marcia (muted), michaelp, jneubert, edsu
15:05:38 [antoine]
15:05:46 [pmurray]
RESOLVED: Accept the minutes (after clean up) at
15:06:12 [TomB]
15:06:12 [pmurray]
TOPIC: Final Report Draft
15:06:55 [pmurray]
TomB: Posted a message to the list with a draft outline of the final report.
15:07:10 [pmurray]
... propose that we go through the draft as listed in the e-mail.
15:07:30 [pmurray]
... walk through the outline of the final report to see how the pieces of the wiki documents fit into the outline
15:08:05 [pmurray]
... for all of the documents ask if the document has served its purpose -- should it be dropped, integrated into the draft report, used as a separate deliverable, or keep as is.
15:08:07 [emma]
regrets+ Kai, Jodi
15:08:37 [pmurray]
... when we decide something should be integrated into the draft, if we have sections of text that are done, that we should move them into the draft report
15:08:57 [pmurray]
... we can discuss if that is the best way to do it as the report gets longer.
15:09:45 [pmurray]
... when we start to put things into the final report that we assign people to review different sections.
15:10:18 [pmurray]
... until now we have had curators present their work. it would be helpful to read each others sections to bring in new perspectives and reviewing from different standpoints.
15:10:39 [pmurray]
... hopefully we will all be familiar with the contents of the report in the end.
15:10:56 [emma]
q+ to suggest to review the main sections of the draft report
15:11:02 [pmurray]
... suggest that we start with the e-mail at
15:12:10 [pmurray]
... use clusters as the basis of the "state of the art" section
15:12:16 [TomB]
ack emma
15:12:16 [Zakim]
emma, you wanted to suggest to review the main sections of the draft report
15:12:32 [pmurray]
emma: Suggest that we start reviewing the main sections of the report to make sure we agree with them
15:13:05 [pmurray]
TomB: Suggests focusing on what we have and then come back to the outline to see what needs to be put in.
15:13:21 [pmurray]
... seeking updates on the clusters.
15:13:37 [pmurray]
emma: Nothing further on the Archives cluster. Work is almost done.
15:13:53 [pmurray]
... keeping the action open to remember to review it one last time.
15:14:16 [pmurray]
GordonD: Bibliographic cluster is finished. Minor adjustments due to the late use cases.
15:15:07 [pmurray]
edsu: Citations cluster. Kai had some ideas for taking it further to make things better, but unsure how far he intends to go.
15:15:18 [ksclarke]
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15:15:30 [pmurray]
??: Collections cluster done in a week or two.
15:15:45 [antoine]
15:16:01 [pmurray]
markva: Digital Objects: still finishing up. Needs help with some of the use case shepherds for suggesting things.
15:16:27 [pmurray]
??: Social Uses -- deadline is Feb 15th for suggested use cases.
15:16:37 [antoine]
15:17:27 [pmurray]
antoine: Vocabulary alignment: still not finished. Most of the work is editorial. Have decided on a way to distribute the work yesterday.
15:17:28 [fsasaki]
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15:17:43 [pmurray]
Have something on the middle of next week or the week after that.
15:17:57 [pmurray]
TomB: The final one is authority data.
15:18:07 [Zakim]
15:19:47 [pmurray]
TomB: Lots of wiki pages that might be integrated into the final report or delivered as separate documents
15:20:01 [emma]
15:20:05 [pmurray]
... any thoughts on how the vocabularies page might be developed into a section of the final report?
15:20:10 [markva]
which one, two called "vocabulary"
15:20:31 [TomB]
ack emma
15:20:31 [Asaf]
I think a list of Vocabs would not be as useful as specific recommendations in the context of specific scenarios.
15:20:56 [pmurray]
emma: include the defitintions that we have created
15:21:37 [pmurray]
... vocabularies section was thought to list the vocabularies that we find we are using
15:21:55 [pmurray]
15:22:13 [pmurray]
... list of vocabularies included in the use cases is a long list
15:22:26 [marcia]
or put them in an appendix
15:22:27 [pmurray]
... use the definitions to say that there are these types and include examples
15:22:34 [kcoyle]
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15:22:34 [markva]
+1 asaf, emma
15:22:37 [pmurray]
... for the report
15:23:03 [pmurray]
TomB: Need a placeholder in the report that points to the vocabularies page
15:23:14 [GordonD]
+1 marcia - put snapshot list of vocabularies in use in an appendix?
15:23:44 [pmurray]
... as we get further along, we need owners for sections so we can have a crack at making stylistic decisions of when do we have lists, when do we cut material, do we put lists in appendices, putting text in the main report
15:23:46 [antoine]
q+ vocabulary page same status as use cases?
15:23:51 [TomB]
ack antoine
15:24:20 [pmurray]
antoine: suggests putting a snapshot of the vocabularies list in the appendix
15:24:59 [pmurray]
TomB: suggests that where we have lists of things that we put effort into compiling those lists for the report
15:25:12 [pmurray]
... if we decide the appendix is not useful, we can cut it
15:25:26 [GordonD]
Big question: who are we writing the report for? Knowledgeable parties? W3C? Librarians who are curious?
15:25:50 [Asaf]
Very big question. :)
15:25:52 [emma]
@GordonD : for "the community" ?
15:25:53 [marcia]
good question
15:26:06 [pmurray]
antoine: A bit of a mixture of all of these people.
15:26:28 [pmurray]
TomB: Another group is decision-makers in the library world. What direction to go in, where to invest resources, that sort of thing.
15:26:30 [Asaf]
I think the _obvious_ audience is high-level deciders about library technology. Those vary between orgs.
15:26:38 [GordonD]
Decision-makers need the snapshot!
15:27:10 [Asaf]
(but also: implementers or would-be implementers of any kind of library-related LOD project)
15:27:11 [antoine]
q+ report as entry point to other del?
15:27:26 [Zakim]
15:27:44 [emma]
ack ant
15:28:15 [pmurray]
antoine: All of this discussion on the audience may point that we need a short report that is an entry point to other things.
15:28:16 [Asaf]
Yes! Concise is good!
15:28:29 [GordonD]
+1 for concision
15:28:34 [markva]
15:28:44 [Zakim]
15:28:57 [pmurray]
... what we currently see as the report focus on motivation, view of vocabularies
15:28:57 [michaelp]
Usually, a report would have an "executive summary" or 1 or 2 pages for decision makers.
15:29:08 [markva]
Do we need some introduction / reading guide?
15:29:12 [emma]
zakim, ??P0 is TomB
15:29:12 [Zakim]
+TomB; got it
15:29:17 [markva]
To guide the diff type of readers?
15:29:36 [Zakim]
15:29:43 [marcia]
+michaelp for executive summary
15:29:48 [markva]
+1 michaelp
15:30:03 [Zakim]
15:30:33 [pmurray]
emma: Start by putting everything in one big draft and see what can then be extracted elsewhere
15:30:41 [GordonD]
One big draft that can be output in different forms for different audiences is a good idea!
15:30:50 [kcoyle]
zakim, ??p1 is kcoyle
15:30:50 [Zakim]
+kcoyle; got it
15:30:54 [marcia]
15:31:23 [markva]
need to identify the diff outputs then, sep wiki pages
15:32:18 [pmurray]
ACTION: Include the vocabulary definition section in the report
15:32:56 [pmurray]
Correct action to --- antoine to include an executive summary placeholder in the draft report
15:32:58 [antoine]
s/Include the vocabulary definition section in the report/Antoine to include executive summary placeholder in report/
15:34:14 [pmurray]
emma: Continuing where TomB left off, the next entry in the draft report is the
15:34:35 [pmurray]
... TomB suggests in his e-mail summarizing this as section 3.2 of the report
15:35:03 [pmurray]
edsu: Does anyone know if very many library data sets have been tagged in CKAN?
15:35:16 [pmurray]
emma: Current state has 18 packages.
15:36:02 [pmurray]
antoine: Tagged 10 of them himself. Need to be mindful of registering other vocabularies
15:36:03 [edsu]
nice :-)
15:36:27 [GordonD]
I will recommend to IFLA that the CKAN stuff is kept up to date for IFLA vocabularies, etc.
15:36:36 [emma]
15:37:11 [pmurray]
emma: Next page is the page of goals. Not sure we need to keep it in the report as it was an aid for creating use cases.
15:37:56 [pmurray]
markva: Doesn't think the page itself contains much text that would be useful in the report. It was useful to create coherent text of the use cases. Maybe could use the ideas someplace in the report, but no concrete suggestions.
15:38:08 [antoine]
q+ for an "exec summary" on UCs?
15:38:16 [pmurray]
emma: Idea was to have common idea between the clusters to extract for the use case clusters.
15:38:21 [emma]
ack ant
15:38:25 [Zakim]
antoine, you wanted to discuss an "exec summary" on UCs?
15:38:54 [pmurray]
antoine: the page could be a good list of reminders for introducing the section on use cases. an executive summary style of what linked data would do in terms of applications.
15:39:28 [pmurray]
... one sentence that digested the ideas.
15:39:40 [pmurray]
... we could have something in the same spirit to make relationships and exploit them.
15:39:48 [GordonD]
+1 for folding Goals into Exec summary/overview of use cases
15:40:13 [kefo]
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15:40:14 [pmurray]
ACTION: Put the Goals page content at the beginning of the use case section
15:40:17 [Zakim]
15:40:21 [kefo]
zakim, LC is me
15:40:21 [Zakim]
+kefo; got it
15:40:29 [kefo]
apologies - weather delay
15:40:35 [emma]
15:40:43 [pmurray]
emma: Next page is library terminology informally explained
15:40:47 [kefo]
zakim, mute me
15:40:47 [Zakim]
kefo should now be muted
15:40:56 [pmurray]
... terms that are relevant to library and linked data world.
15:41:29 [pmurray]
... include in the final report as a link? Notes that it is on the community wiki, not the group wiki.
15:41:40 [kcoyle]
i think that was for our use
15:41:44 [GordonD]
+1 include as link/appendix
15:42:12 [pmurray]
kcoyle: Suggests that the purpose was so that we could communicate among ourselves, and not for the final report.
15:42:34 [antoine]
I think there should be a freezed version
15:42:39 [pmurray]
emma: Only include the vocabulary part in the final report.
15:42:56 [emma]
15:43:08 [emma]
15:43:14 [pmurray]
emma: Gordon's review library standards of linked data
15:43:17 [emma]
15:43:34 [pmurray]
... and this other page. There is overlap between the two.
15:44:28 [Zakim]
15:44:33 [kcoyle]
this could be an appendix
15:44:34 [pmurray]
... the page that GordonD created is interesting. At the face-to-face meeting we talked about including it in the report. Maybe in the vocabulary section.
15:44:47 [pmurray]
... the second page was intended as the internal work of the group.
15:45:04 [markva]
overview of library standards really useful for semweb readers
15:45:05 [pmurray]
GordonD: The overlap between the two is only in the first half of the library standards and linked data page.
15:45:26 [pmurray]
... the page is deliberately in two parts. Sections 1-4 should be conflated with the library data resources page.
15:45:44 [pmurray]
... the second half was intended as a stimulous for discussion by the group, but didn't have that effect.
15:45:55 [pmurray]
... it might stimulate further discussion beyond the life of the final report.
15:46:10 [antoine]
q+ on splitting the page?
15:46:16 [emma]
ack ant
15:46:16 [Zakim]
antoine, you wanted to comment on splitting the page?
15:46:30 [pmurray]
antoine: could we split GordonD's page?
15:47:08 [pmurray]
GordonD: No objections to splitting the page. It would be valuble to integrate the first part.
15:47:34 [pmurray]
... would like for this group to have at least one session discussing the open questions in the second half of the page.
15:48:45 [markva]
seems to overlap with Problems and Limitations stuff
15:49:14 [pmurray]
Proposed A C T I O N: As a future topic for a conference call, discuss the open questions in the second half of
15:50:08 [pmurray]
ACTION: As a future topic for a conference call, discuss the open questions in the second half of
15:50:35 [pmurray]
ACTION: GordonD to split and make recommendations on where to integrate into the final report
15:50:48 [antoine]
@markva: yes, there is overlap! Gordon's page elaborates on some of the limitations.
15:50:56 [emma]
15:51:35 [pmurray]
emma: We had the idea to work on this with wiki transclusion
15:51:48 [pmurray]
... we probably have some of these topics in the draft report already
15:52:26 [pmurray]
... the summary of the face to face is almost more relevant than this page
15:52:46 [emma]
15:52:53 [markva]
@antoine: but see no place in report where prob & lim stuff should go?
15:53:06 [kcoyle]
needs to be in there
15:53:16 [markva]
15:53:40 [kcoyle]
that's probably what we most want to incubate around (sorry, lost phone, will just chat)
15:54:28 [markva]
+1 need new sec
15:54:42 [TomB]
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15:54:43 [pmurray]
emma: create a new section in the report on problems and limitations?
15:54:43 [pmurray]
15:54:44 [marcia]
+1 some generalized ones
15:55:02 [pmurray]
...then we can go further with the recommendations
15:55:17 [kcoyle]
should be 1.4; before recommendations
15:56:36 [pmurray]
ACTION: ?? to add a 1.4 section (before recommendations) on problems and limitations
15:56:49 [emma]
15:57:23 [pmurray]
GordonD: page is still under discussion with jodi and kcoyle
15:57:34 [pmurray]
... what the page is intending to publish is quite imporant
15:57:59 [pmurray]
... where it is heading is towards mixed granularity approach for libraries, with implications as to whether LLD helps
15:58:21 [pmurray]
... perhaps this belongs in the problems/limitation section as a general environmental issue that might lead to problems/limitations
15:58:36 [pmurray]
... suggests continue working on the page to include in this new problems/limitations section
15:58:53 [kcoyle]
15:58:56 [pmurray]
... GordonD will come up with a suggestion on how to integrate it.
15:59:00 [edsu]
+1 seems like a good thing to include in the report
15:59:20 [TomB]
16:00:34 [Zakim]
16:00:48 [pmurray]
ACTION: emma will enter the changes decided today into the draft report
16:01:10 [Asaf]
Bye everyone.
16:01:12 [kefo]
16:01:15 [kefo]
16:01:16 [jneubert]
16:01:16 [markva]
16:01:17 [Zakim]
16:01:18 [Zakim]
16:01:18 [Zakim]
16:01:19 [Zakim]
16:01:19 [Zakim]
16:01:20 [Zakim]
16:01:25 [Zakim]
16:01:28 [Zakim]
16:01:31 [pmurray]
16:01:31 [Zakim]
16:01:32 [Zakim]
16:01:34 [antoine]
zakim, who is here?
16:01:34 [Zakim]
On the phone I see antoine, emma, pmurray (muted)
16:01:37 [pmurray]
zakim, list attendees
16:01:37 [Zakim]
As of this point the attendees have been TomB, antoine, +, emma, +1.404.892.aabb, markva, pmurray, +1.423.463.aacc, rsinger, Asaf, uldis, +1.330.289.aadd, GordonD,
16:01:41 [Zakim]
... +1.614.764.aaee, +49.4.aaff, marcia, michaelp, jneubert, edsu, felix, kcoyle, kefo
16:01:41 [emma]
zakim, unmute pmurray
16:01:41 [Zakim]
pmurray should no longer be muted
16:01:50 [michaelp]
michaelp has left #lld
16:01:57 [emma]
rrsagent, please draft minutes
16:01:57 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate emma
16:02:54 [Zakim]
16:03:35 [uldis]
uldis has left #lld
16:06:37 [antoine]
zakim, bye
16:06:37 [Zakim]
leaving. As of this point the attendees were TomB, antoine, +, emma, +1.404.892.aabb, markva, pmurray, +1.423.463.aacc, rsinger, Asaf, uldis, +1.330.289.aadd,
16:06:37 [Zakim]
Zakim has left #lld
16:06:44 [antoine]
rrsagent, bye
16:06:44 [RRSAgent]
I see 6 open action items saved in :
16:06:44 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: Include the vocabulary definition section in the report [1]
16:06:44 [RRSAgent]
recorded in
16:06:44 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: Put the Goals page content at the beginning of the use case section [2]
16:06:44 [RRSAgent]
recorded in
16:06:44 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: As a future topic for a conference call, discuss the open questions in the second half of [3]
16:06:44 [RRSAgent]
recorded in
16:06:44 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: GordonD to split and make recommendations on where to integrate into the final report [4]
16:06:44 [RRSAgent]
recorded in
16:06:44 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: ?? to add a 1.4 section (before recommendations) on problems and limitations [5]
16:06:44 [RRSAgent]
recorded in
16:06:44 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: emma will enter the changes decided today into the draft report [6]
16:06:44 [RRSAgent]
recorded in