IRC log of ws-ra on 2011-01-25

Timestamps are in UTC.

20:30:09 [RRSAgent]
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logging to
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RRSAgent, make logs public
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Zakim, this will be WSRA
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ok, trackbot, I see WS_WSRA()3:30PM already started
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Meeting: Web Services Resource Access Working Group Teleconference
20:30:14 [trackbot]
Date: 25 January 2011
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- +1.908.696.aaaa
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+ +39.331.574.aaee
20:32:07 [asoldano]
Zakim, aaee is asoldano
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+asoldano; got it
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20:33:01 [gpilz]
SCRIBE: gpilz
20:33:04 [dug]
20:33:56 [gpilz]
TOPIC: Agenda
20:34:07 [gpilz]
RESOLUTION: agenda agreed to
20:34:18 [gpilz]
TOPIC: minutes from January 11th, 2011
20:34:27 [gpilz]
RESOLUTION: minutes approved
20:34:33 [gpilz]
TOPIC: F2F meeting preparation
20:34:49 [gpilz]
Bob> like to clarify what I'm thinking about
20:35:08 [gpilz]
... typically there are some issues that come up as a result of implementing, issues that come up as part of testing
20:35:28 [gpilz]
... we have participants that will be at the F2F and others on the phone
20:35:43 [gpilz]
... would like to group issue discussions into the morning times, testing in the afternoons
20:35:43 [asoldano]
nice idea
20:35:49 [gpilz]
... is that acceptable?
20:35:58 [gpilz]
(no comments on phone)
20:36:27 [gpilz]
... as far as timings go - is start time of 9:00 ok?
20:36:41 [gpilz]
Gil> 9:00 - 5:00 is fine
20:36:52 [gpilz]
Bob> group dinner on 2/15?
20:37:06 [gpilz]
Gil> I can scout around
20:37:10 [Ram]
20:37:13 [gpilz]
... make some recommendations
20:37:33 [BobF]
ack ram
20:37:34 [gpilz]
Ram> Gil, is breakfast or snacks served?
20:38:09 [gpilz]
Gil> same deal as all Oracle conference center events
20:38:20 [gpilz]
... they put out food for breakfast and lunch in the hall
20:38:43 [gpilz]
TOPIC: Table of Implementations
20:39:02 [gpilz]
Bob> hasn't changed since the previous call
20:39:10 [gpilz]
... we've had a slew of new issues
20:39:31 [gpilz]
Gil> maybe we could handle the simpler issues first?
20:39:58 [gpilz]
... these are all post-CR issues?
20:40:27 [gpilz]
Bob> if we resolve an issue with a substantive change - we have to go back to Last Call
20:40:52 [gpilz]
TOPIC: Issue-11625
20:40:59 [gpilz]
20:41:18 [gpilz]
Doug> on DeleteMetadata - it doesn't say what to do if the target metadata doesn't exist
20:41:30 [gpilz]
... would like to see it have no effect - silent ignore
20:41:35 [gpilz]
... no fault etc.
20:41:45 [gpilz]
Gil> could you expand?
20:42:08 [gpilz]
Doug> if someone wants something deleted and it is already deleted (or just not there) - they have the intended result
20:42:17 [gpilz]
... why bother them with a fault?
20:42:25 [gpilz]
20:42:35 [BobF]
ack gp
20:42:40 [Katy]
20:43:18 [Tom_Rutt]
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20:43:53 [gpilz]
Gil> feeling uneasy about this - the client has no idea that what they thought was true isn't
20:44:04 [gpilz]
Doug> they could always check if it mattered that much to them
20:44:22 [gpilz]
Bob> we've been here before - MEX doesn't support any kind of transactionality
20:44:45 [BobF]
ack katy
20:44:52 [gpilz]
Katy> we've decided this before - the Delete should just fail silently
20:45:09 [gpilz]
... what would you do if you got a fault anyway?
20:45:21 [gpilz]
Bob> any objections to accepting as a new issue
20:45:35 [gpilz]
20:45:52 [gpilz]
Bob> any objections to accpeting proposal for silent fail?
20:45:58 [gpilz]
Gil> where's the explicit text?
20:46:01 [gpilz]
Bob> in the issue
20:46:40 [gpilz]
RESOLUTION: Issue-11625 resolved with proposal in
20:46:55 [gpilz]
TOPIC: Issue-11697
20:47:03 [gpilz]
20:47:22 [gpilz]
Doug> (explains issue)
20:48:23 [gpilz]
20:48:47 [BobF]
ack gp
20:48:50 [gpilz]
Bob> I think there is a pre-defined SOAP fault for this
20:49:06 [gpilz]
RESOLUTION: Issue-11697 accepted and left open
20:49:20 [gpilz]
TOPIC: Issue-11698
20:49:26 [gpilz]
20:49:46 [gpilz]
Doug> (explains)
20:50:11 [gpilz]
... implies that default for @Name is "unwrapped"
20:50:54 [Tom_Rutt]
20:51:09 [BobF]
ack tom
20:51:21 [gpilz]
Tom> doesn't option (1) require a schema change?
20:51:23 [gpilz]
Doug> yes
20:51:30 [gpilz]
Tom> I like option (2) better than
20:51:34 [Ram]
20:51:41 [gpilz]
Bob> any objection to accepting as a new issue?
20:51:43 [gpilz]
20:51:51 [BobF]
ack ram
20:52:05 [gpilz]
Ram> I don't have a particular comment - I just need more time to consider this
20:52:25 [gpilz]
RESOLUTION: Issue-11698 accepted and left open
20:52:41 [gpilz]
TOPIC: Issue-11703
20:52:48 [gpilz]
20:53:10 [gpilz]
Doug> (describes)
20:54:22 [gpilz]
... also the issue of what happens if the event source notices the bad filter later (after SubscribeResponse has been sent and processed)
20:54:33 [Tom_Rutt]
20:54:54 [BobF]
ack tom
20:54:59 [gpilz]
Tom> what is difference between that, and your disk drive going down?
20:55:17 [gpilz]
... maybe you should just kill the subscription and send a SubscriptionEnd
20:55:27 [gpilz]
Doug> none, but you need to be explicit about it
20:56:01 [gpilz]
Ram> I need more time on this as well
20:56:25 [gpilz]
RESOLUTION: Issue-11703 accepted but left open pending further investigation by Ram
20:56:39 [gpilz]
TOPIC: Issue-11723
20:56:44 [gpilz]
Doug> (describes)
20:57:17 [gpilz]
20:57:32 [gpilz]
Doug> (proposes adding new fault)
20:58:11 [gpilz]
RESOLUTION: Issue-11723 accepted but left open pending further investigation by Ram
20:58:39 [gpilz]
TOPIC: Issue 11724
20:58:46 [gpilz]
20:58:52 [gpilz]
Doug> (describes)
20:59:09 [Tom_Rutt]
20:59:12 [gpilz]
... proposes rewording to make clear that an absent frag has no effect (fail silent)
20:59:17 [BobF]
ack tom
20:59:27 [gpilz]
Tom> when you say you don't do anything - you don't respond?
20:59:48 [gpilz]
Doug> you send back a valid response message - as if the Delete had succeeded
20:59:56 [gpilz]
Tom> sounds right to me
21:00:29 [gpilz]
RESOLUTION: Issue 11724 accepted but left open pending further investigation by Ram
21:00:43 [gpilz]
TOPIC: Issue 11725
21:00:50 [gpilz]
21:00:57 [gpilz]
Doug> (describes)
21:01:03 [gpilz]
... use InvalidInput fault
21:02:47 [gpilz]
Gil> (confusing rant about not requiring receiver to validate everything the consumer sends it)
21:05:19 [gpilz]
(back and forth about conformance philosophy)
21:07:55 [Tom_Rutt]
21:08:22 [BobF]
ack tom
21:08:29 [gpilz]
Tom> "MAY" be ok - or qualified MUST
21:09:10 [gpilz]
Gil> "... if the service detects {foo} and chooses to fault, it MUST generate the {bar} fault"
21:09:30 [Tom_Rutt]
but from a testing point of view, the qualified MUST is no different than the MAY, from te point of view of the client
21:09:35 [gpilz]
RESOLUTION: 11725 accepted but left open
21:09:53 [gpilz]
TOPIC: Issue-11766
21:10:00 [gpilz]
21:10:23 [gpilz]
Doug> reword things to make it clear that you don't have to update the resource if you don't support the schema of the thing that was passed in
21:10:52 [gpilz]
RESOLUTION: Issue-11766 accepted but left open
21:11:12 [gpilz]
TOPIC: Issue-11772
21:11:31 [gpilz]
Doug> @language is required (tells you what dialect you are using)
21:11:40 [gpilz]
... this is very much like a filter
21:11:56 [gpilz]
... @language should be optional and default to XPath
21:12:01 [Tom_Rutt]
21:12:06 [gpilz]
... is this a "substantive" change?
21:12:12 [BobF]
ack tom
21:12:14 [gpilz]
Bob> up to the WG to decide
21:12:25 [gpilz]
Tom> changing something from mandatory doesn't sound like a break
21:12:37 [gpilz]
RESOLUTION: Issue-11772 accepted and left open
21:12:56 [gpilz]
TOPIC: Issue-11776
21:13:07 [gpilz]
21:13:11 [gpilz]
Doug> (describes)
21:13:47 [Tom_Rutt]
21:14:03 [BobF]
ack tom
21:14:27 [gpilz]
RESOLUTION: Issue-11776 accepted but left open pending more investigation by Ram
21:14:41 [gpilz]
TOPIC: Issue-11790
21:14:49 [gpilz]
21:14:58 [gpilz]
Doug> (describes how we screwed up)
21:15:40 [gpilz]
21:17:48 [Tom_Rutt]
21:17:52 [gpilz]
simplest example of this is
21:17:52 [gpilz]
<mex:MetadataSection @Dialect='wsdl:definitions' ...>
21:17:52 [gpilz]
<wsdl:definitions xmlns:wsdl="http://www.w3c....>
21:17:59 [BobF]
ack gp
21:19:57 [BobF]
ack tom
21:19:57 [gpilz]
Gil> (futher explanation above)
21:19:59 [Katy]
21:20:04 [gpilz]
21:20:51 [BobF]
ack katy
21:20:55 [gpilz]
Tom> XPath has a work-around for this, but we're not using XPath
21:20:59 [gpilz]
... baffled
21:21:01 [Zakim]
21:21:30 [gpilz]
Katy> 'wsdl:definitions' - the "wsdl" part is shorthand for "http://www.w3c...."
21:21:43 [gpilz]
... the prefix doesn't matter
21:21:50 [Zakim]
21:22:06 [BobF]
ack gp
21:22:10 [Yves]
21:23:59 [gpilz]
I like <mex:Dialect Type="{nsURI}localPart" ...
21:24:06 [Tom_Rutt]
21:24:26 [dug]
Possible serialization options, if we do want to change it:
21:24:28 [dug]
- <mex:Dialect Type="nsURI/localPart" ...
21:24:29 [dug]
- <mex:Dialect Type="{nsURI}localPart" ...
21:24:31 [dug]
- <mex:Dialect TypeNS="nsURI" TypeName="localPart" ...
21:24:42 [BobF]
ack tom
21:25:14 [gpilz]
Tom> if we don't go from changing it from QName we'll have to use @prefixMapping from one of the WSDM-related specs
21:25:29 [gpilz]
RESOLUTION: Issue-11790 accepted and left open
21:25:42 [gpilz]
TOPIC: Issue 11849
21:25:50 [gpilz]
21:27:21 [gpilz]
Gil> (describes)
21:27:58 [gpilz]
Proposal - replace the first sentence with the following: "This REQUIRED attribute indicates the type and version of the metadata unit contained in this MetadataSection (e.g. WSDL version 1.1)."
21:28:23 [gpilz]
previous: This indicates the type and version of the metadata unit contained in this MetadataSection (e.g., WSDL version 1.1).
21:28:58 [gpilz]
RESOLUTION: Issue-11849 accepted and resolved with proposed text from:
21:29:10 [gpilz]
TOPIC: Issue-11850
21:29:18 [gpilz]
21:30:42 [gpilz]
Gil> (describes)
21:31:33 [gpilz]
RESOLUTION: Issue-11850 accpeted and left open pending further investigation by Ram
21:31:34 [dug]
21:31:42 [gpilz]
TOPIC: Issue 11865
21:34:13 [Katy]
21:34:16 [dug]
21:34:59 [BobF]
ack katy
21:35:12 [gpilz]
Katy> I hadn't thought of this as a problem on the Get
21:35:35 [gpilz]
... 2 issues - (a) Get and (b) Put/Delete
21:35:58 [gpilz]
... only solution I see is Replace or Delete all the documents identified by the Dialect/ID tuple
21:36:11 [Tom_Rutt]
21:36:15 [gpilz]
... Get is another matter
21:36:19 [BobF]
ack dug
21:36:29 [gpilz]
Doug> solution in my mind is what Katy was saying
21:36:57 [gpilz]
... Get and Put contain "complete" set of all metadata matching the Dialect/ID tuple
21:37:12 [gpilz]
... interesting twists around @Content
21:37:33 [gpilz]
... if I ask for everything that can be referenced via EPRs - clearly I might not get the "complete set"
21:38:15 [gpilz]
... we need something that says "if you have multiple sections for the same Dialect/ID/Content triplet, they are all separate parts of 'the same thing' and there are no duplicate sections"
21:38:42 [Tom_Rutt]
I am confused, if there are several schema file with the same namespace, and that namespace is used as @Identifier, would every root element in that "combinded schema" across the namespace be allowed to be send in the return? what if there is a single global element defintions which is a multiple container?
21:38:48 [BobF]
ack tom
21:38:53 [gpilz]
... currently there is nothing in the spec that prevents you from returning a Metadata document with duplicate MetadataSections that contain the exact same XML
21:39:10 [gpilz]
Tom> I'm confused - when you are talking about multiple schemas with the same targetnamespace
21:39:12 [dug]
21:40:37 [dug]
21:41:28 [gpilz]
RESOLUTION: issue 11850 accepted and left open pending some reasonable proposal
21:42:09 [dug]
21:42:24 [gpilz]
TOPIC: Issue-11867
21:42:44 [gpilz]
Doug> (describes - editorial)
21:43:21 [gpilz]
RESOLUTION: Issue-11867 accepted and resolved with proposal in
21:43:53 [gpilz]
TOPIC: CR progression
21:44:10 [gpilz]
Bob> text is available for review
21:44:28 [gpilz]
... on home page
21:44:32 [dug]
21:44:42 [dug]
21:44:43 [gpilz]
... need to work on indicating which features are at risk
21:44:46 [BobF]
ack dug
21:44:49 [li]
21:45:13 [BobF]
ack li
21:45:32 [gpilz]
Li> new CR version - is it stable enough to implement?
21:45:47 [gpilz]
Bob> only thing that may change is "status of this document" section
21:45:54 [dug]
21:46:11 [BobF]
ack dug
21:46:30 [gpilz]
Doug> if these are the docs we are going to be testing against - we need to know what the namespaces will be so we can use those
21:46:45 [gpilz]
Bob> depends on the timing of when we roll out the specs
21:46:54 [gpilz]
... you can use the current namespace for the Feb testing
21:47:31 [gpilz]
Doug> I'll update the scenario doc to indicate this
21:47:45 [gpilz]
TOPIC: Test Scenarios
21:47:56 [gpilz]
21:48:05 [gpilz]
Bob> I've noticed a few changes going by
21:48:14 [gpilz]
... how are we doing for Feb?
21:48:29 [dug]
21:48:34 [gpilz]
Ram> I think these are fairly stable and implementable
21:48:41 [BobF]
ack dug
21:48:51 [gpilz]
Doug> this doc needs to go through more changes - more variations
21:49:03 [gpilz]
... mainline scenarios are there - but we need to add variations
21:49:10 [gpilz]
... missing critical bits of info
21:49:26 [gpilz]
... Eventing and Enum talk about testing *End
21:49:33 [gpilz]
... but how will this be triggered?
21:49:42 [gpilz]
... need to specify in the doc
21:50:10 [gpilz]
Ram> as long as the core scenarios are intact we can do the fine tuning later
21:50:30 [Ram]
21:50:31 [gpilz]
Bob> we're going to test, grind through, find issues (spec, scenarios, test infrastructure)
21:50:40 [gpilz]
... will need to take another whack at testing
21:50:44 [BobF]
ack ram
21:51:22 [gpilz]
Ram> can we call "freeze" on what we have in the scenario today?
21:51:28 [dug]
21:51:32 [gpilz]
Bob> plan to test what we have now
21:51:36 [BobF]
ack dug
21:51:44 [gpilz]
Doug> I'm OK with the idea that we don't have major changes
21:51:58 [gpilz]
... not comfortable with the idea that the scenario won't change
21:52:18 [gpilz]
Bob> just want to set expectations about what people should bring to the table in Feb
21:52:38 [gpilz]
... as firm as a marshmallow - but formed
21:52:52 [gpilz]
... need to give devs something to shoot at
21:53:11 [gpilz]
Doug> people shouldn't be surprised if additional scenarios/cases are added
21:53:26 [gpilz]
Ram> I'm ok with that - as long as we have a stable version to shoot for
21:53:55 [gpilz]
TOPIC: post CR
21:54:33 [gpilz]
Bob: we need to declare a date that defines how long the CR will last (minimum review period)
21:54:45 [gpilz]
... can't go to PR before that date
21:54:53 [Tom_Rutt]
21:54:58 [Tom_Rutt]
21:55:08 [BobF]
ack tom
21:55:23 [gpilz]
Tom> if we have some of the schema changes it looks like we might have
21:55:42 [gpilz]
... can we progress to PR, even if we change the namespace?
21:55:59 [gpilz]
Bob> if we make a "breaking change" (lots of changes are not breaking)
21:56:19 [gpilz]
Tom> we can have a new namespace for the PR schema from the CR schema
21:56:30 [gpilz]
Bob> you don't necessarily have to change the schema
21:58:04 [gpilz]
All> (reviews proposed directions to issues and concludes that we will probably have to change the namespace)
21:58:14 [gpilz]
Bob> we may need a 2nd interop
21:58:29 [gpilz]
... April 29th end of review period
22:01:01 [Tom_Rutt]
22:01:22 [BobF]
act Tom
22:01:23 [Katy]
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ack tom
22:01:28 [dug]
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ack katy
22:02:11 [Tom_Rutt]
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ack dug
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ack tom
22:02:38 [dug]
60 days for me
22:02:44 [dug]
so march
22:03:37 [BobF]
march 31
22:03:47 [gpilz]
RESOLUTION: end of CR period March 31st, 2011
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rrsagent generate minutes
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WS_WSRA()3:30PM has ended
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Attendees were Doug_Davis, Tom_Rutt, Bob_Freund, +1.908.696.aaaa, [Microsoft], +1.831.713.aabb, +1.908.696.aacc, +44.196.281.aadd, +39.331.574.aaee, asoldano, Yves
22:04:33 [BobF]
rrsagent, generate minutes
22:04:33 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate BobF
22:16:20 [gpilz]
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