16:01:43 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #webevents
16:01:43 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2011/01/25-webevents-irc
16:01:45 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs world
16:01:47 <mbrubeck> mbrubeck has joined #webevents
16:01:47 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be event
16:01:48 <trackbot> Meeting: Web Events Working Group Teleconference
16:01:48 <trackbot> Date: 25 January 2011
16:02:10 <ArtB> ScribeNick: ArtB
16:02:10 <ArtB> Scribe: Art
16:02:10 <ArtB> Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webevents/2011JanMar/0009.html
16:02:10 <ArtB> Date: 25 January 2011
16:02:10 <ArtB> Chair: Art
16:02:11 <ArtB> Meeting: Web Events WG Voice Conference
16:02:24 <ArtB> egrets: Dzung_Tran, Anders_Höckersten, Olli_Pettay
16:02:34 <ArtB> Regrets: Dzung_Tran, Anders_Höckersten, Olli_Pettay
16:02:47 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #webevents
16:02:54 <ArtB> Present: Art_Barstow, Doug_Schepers, Laszlo_Gombos, Matt_Brubeck
16:03:03 <shepazu> trackbot, start telcon
16:03:05 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs world
16:03:07 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be event
16:03:08 <trackbot> Meeting: Web Events Working Group Teleconference
16:03:08 <trackbot> Date: 25 January 2011
16:03:17 <ArtB> RRSAgent, make log Public
16:03:20 <shepazu> Zakim, call shepazu 
16:03:23 <ArtB> RRSAgent, make minutes
16:03:23 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/01/25-webevents-minutes.html ArtB
16:03:28 <shepazu> Zakim, code?
16:04:49 <shepazu> code: 9231#
16:05:01 <Zakim> I do not see a conference matching that name scheduled within the next hour, trackbot
16:05:18 <Zakim> sorry, shepazu, I don't know what conference this is
16:05:22 <Zakim> sorry, shepazu, I don't know what conference this is
16:05:40 <shepazu> http://www.w3.org/Guide/1998/08/teleconference-calendar#s_4378
16:06:39 <ArtB> Present+ Josh_Soref
16:06:52 <ArtB> Topic: Tweak Agenda
16:06:58 <ArtB> AB: a draft agenda was submitted yesterday ( http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webevents/2011JanMar/0009.html ). Any change requests?
16:07:11 <ArtB> [ None ]
16:07:13 <ArtB> Topic: Touch Events spec
16:07:20 <ArtB> AB: earlier today, Doug announced the availability of the "Touch Events Specification" Editor's Draft (  http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/webevents/raw-file/tip/touchevents.html ).
16:07:27 <ArtB> AB: thanks Doug!
16:07:33 <timeless_w7ip> doug: congrats on getting Hg up :)
16:07:56 <ArtB> AB: this is indeed a fresh doc, so I don't expect everyone to have read it
16:08:03 <ArtB> ... and we do have some regrests
16:08:12 <ArtB> DS: I'd like to go through it
16:08:17 <timeless_w7ip> s/regrests/regrets/
16:08:36 <ArtB> DS: I'll start with an introduction
16:08:53 <ArtB> ... I struggled a bit and then each event is a set of lists
16:09:01 <ArtB> ... and each list is a set of touch points
16:09:14 <ArtB> ... and each touch point has several attributes one would associate with an event
16:09:44 <ArtB> ... f.ex., for a click, get screen x+ why
16:10:03 <ArtB> DS: in webkit get lists and those lists have the events
16:10:22 <ArtB> ... took this pretty much from Webkit impl as documented on various sources on the web
16:10:34 <mbrubeck> useful for comparison: http://developer.apple.com/library/safari/#documentation/UserExperience/Reference/TouchEventClassReference/TouchEvent/TouchEvent.html
16:10:35 <ArtB> ... I did add some stuff: cx and cy
16:10:53 <ArtB> ... I mean rx and ry
16:11:11 <timeless_w7ip> oh, good. i was going to complain about that (cx v. rx), i'd rather "radiusX"/"radiusY"
16:11:11 <ArtB> ... they indicate radius of the x+why
16:12:06 <ArtB> ... need an area rather than an exact point
16:12:34 <ArtB> DS: so why did I use this model rather than the Mozilla model?
16:12:46 <ArtB> ... I think the WebKit model has broader deployment
16:13:10 <ArtB> DS: Josh asked about the names I choose and about identifiers rather than an ID
16:13:22 <ArtB> ... the answer is: that's the way it is done in WebKit
16:13:42 <ArtB> AB: add, as a first ED, the contents are all up for discussion
16:13:44 <Sangwhan_Moon1> Sangwhan_Moon1 has joined #webevents
16:13:56 <ArtB> ... i.e. the spec isn't frozen :-)
16:14:05 <timeless_w7ip> indeed, there was a promise that we weren't going to treat first editor's content as final
16:14:18 <ArtB> MB: I've done some work on Gecko and WK but work for Mozilla
16:14:56 <Sangwhan_Moon1> zakim, who is on the call?
16:14:56 <Zakim>  has not yet started, Sangwhan_Moon1
16:14:57 <Zakim> On IRC I see Sangwhan_Moon1, Zakim, mbrubeck, RRSAgent, lgombos, timeless_w7ip, ArtB, trackbot, shepazu
16:14:58 <ArtB> ... I submitted my comments
16:15:12 <ArtB> Present+ Sangwhan_Moon
16:15:30 <ArtB> DS: with balls and wheels have some stair-stepping problems
16:15:50 <ArtB> ... may need to do some mapping
16:16:08 <ArtB> ... for the 1st draft, I thought it would be easier to use WK model
16:16:23 <ArtB> ... if there are good reasons to change, we should discuss that
16:17:07 <ArtB> MB: the two main diffs between ED and WK impls are
16:17:15 <ArtB> ... 1) touch radius
16:17:22 <ArtB> ... and 2) touch enter and leave?
16:17:27 <ArtB> DS: yes, that's correct
16:17:37 <ArtB> LG: WK has keyboard modifiers on touch events
16:17:44 <ArtB> DS: oh, I forgot to add them
16:17:54 <timeless_w7ip> shepazu: (editorial) i think you should probably add references to the WK and Gecko docs to the References section :)
16:17:57 <ArtB> MB:  it enherit from UIEvent
16:18:04 <ArtB> DS: OK; good to know; I'll change that
16:18:40 <ArtB> DS: In my local copy, I changed to UIEvent
16:18:52 <ArtB> ... will also add the keyboard stuff; should be easy to do
16:19:37 <ArtB> ... re kebd modifiers, you are talking about Meta/Alt keys?
16:19:46 <ArtB> MB: correct
16:19:58 <ArtB> DS: is that in the touch point or the touch interface?
16:20:15 <ArtB> ... should be in same place as screenX and screenY, right?
16:20:17 <ArtB> MB: yes
16:20:42 <ArtB> DS: ok, control key, meta key, ...; I'll copy those from DOM 3 Events spec
16:21:45 <mbrubeck> Sangwhan_Moon1: are you on the call?
16:21:45 <ArtB> AB: I noticed Sangwhan has a question but I don't think he is on the call
16:21:51 <lgombos> WebKit latest TouchEevent - http://trac.webkit.org/browser/trunk/Source/WebCore/dom/TouchEvent.idl
16:22:52 <ArtB> LG: the URI entered is a reference for the modifiers and events for WK impl
16:23:17 <timeless_w7ip> http://www.w3.org/TR/DOM-Level-2-Events/events.html#Events-MouseEvent
16:23:20 <mbrubeck> Safari uses "long" for screen events: http://developer.apple.com/library/safari/#documentation/UserExperience/Reference/TouchEventClassReference/TouchEvent/TouchEvent.html
16:23:42 <timeless_w7ip> the datatype issue is that events attributes like clientX are integer-ish not float-ish
16:23:48 <ArtB> AB: any other comments Matt you want to raise now?
16:23:52 <Sangwhan_Moon1> I believe long would be a better option than using floats
16:24:01 <ArtB> MB: a few minor things e.g. rx and ry attrs
16:24:09 <ArtB> ... the spec should talk about the coordinate system
16:24:32 <ArtB> DS: I've updated the text to use pixels
16:24:40 <ArtB> MB: but pixels are ambigous 
16:24:45 <Sangwhan_Moon1> as it is very unlikely that a float screen coordinate is possible in the real world
16:24:49 <ArtB> ... in that they are device dependent
16:24:59 <ArtB> ... and used differently e.g. in CSS pixels
16:25:04 <timeless_w7ip> it should be in "input coordinates" consistent with how the mouse pixels work
16:25:08 <Sangwhan_Moon1> DOM 2 mouse events also uses long for screen coordinates
16:25:16 <ArtB> ... If content authors will use this data, they need to relate it to a physical size
16:25:22 <Sangwhan_Moon1> so it would make more sense to have those in align in terms of datatypes
16:25:25 <ArtB> ... and that would mean using something like CSS pixels
16:25:46 <ArtB> DS: I'm ok with that 
16:26:05 <ArtB> ... but they are already assuming the same number of pixels from pageX, pageY, etc.
16:26:28 <ArtB> MB: but those use different size pixels with mobile safari 
16:26:39 <ArtB> DS: screenX and screenY should be the same
16:26:48 <ArtB> MB: true but pageX and pageY do change
16:26:59 <ArtB> ... not clear if rX and rY would change
16:27:18 <timeless_w7ip> q+ to ask for changing "r" for "radius"
16:27:41 <ArtB> MB: if content authors want to map rX and rY to physical lenghts 
16:27:48 <timeless_w7ip> s/lenghts/lengths/
16:27:50 <ArtB> ... they need to know the density of the display
16:28:03 <ArtB> ... assuming they are in hw pixels rather than CSS pixels
16:28:23 <timeless_w7ip> ... which can be done perhaps w/ CSS media queries, which is "awkward"
16:28:28 <ArtB> DS: we do need to define what we are using
16:28:42 <ArtB> ... and reference something, probably CSS
16:28:57 <ArtB> AB: we can't leave it open in the spec, right?
16:29:11 <ArtB> MB: correct; we don't need to solve it today on this call
16:29:31 <timeless_w7ip> ack me
16:29:31 <Zakim> timeless_w7ip, you wanted to ask for changing "r" for "radius"
16:29:32 <ArtB> JS: would prefer "radiusX" to be consistent with screenX, ...
16:29:43 <ArtB> DS: that's fine with me (I'm tainted by SVG)
16:29:53 <Sangwhan_Moon1> zakim, who is on the call?
16:29:54 <Zakim>  has not yet started, Sangwhan_Moon1
16:29:55 <ArtB> s/tainted/biased/
16:30:00 <Zakim> On IRC I see Sangwhan_Moon1, Zakim, mbrubeck, RRSAgent, lgombos, timeless_w7ip, ArtB, trackbot, shepazu
16:30:10 <ArtB> DS: are people ok with touch area being an ellipse?
16:30:28 <ArtB> MB: not clear what an impl should do if it doesn't have info about the area
16:30:49 <ArtB> DS: <digress>this is the first time I've used respec; anyone else used it?
16:31:01 <ArtB> ... not clear how NoExceptions is used
16:31:11 <ArtB> MB: so it does not throw an exception?
16:31:18 <ArtB> DS: I need to clarify this
16:31:30 <ArtB> ... it is zero if no other value is available
16:32:11 <ArtB> JS: 1 may be better because people will try to divide by 0 and indeterminate things happen then
16:32:18 <ArtB> DS: I'm fine with using "1"
16:32:28 <timeless_w7ip> (technically they are rather well defined, but propogation is distressing to real users)
16:33:13 <ArtB> LG: what if someone is not using a finger but something else
16:33:32 <ArtB> DS: don't think that would be distinguishable
16:33:43 <Sangwhan_Moon1> agenda?
16:33:48 <ArtB> ... can't distinguish between finger or stylus
16:34:12 <shepazu> updated: http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/webevents/raw-file/tip/touchevents.html
16:34:36 <ArtB> JS: need to be careful to not discriminate based on capabilities of users
16:34:43 <timeless_w7ip> [ http://www.section508.gov ]
16:34:54 <ArtB> DS: this is about distinguishing different device capabilities (not user capabilities)
16:35:07 <ArtB> DS: oh, just realized I need to add pressure
16:35:13 <mbrubeck> Sangwhan_Moon1: no, it hasn't
16:35:17 <mbrubeck> Sangwhan_Moon1: agenda - http://developer.apple.com/library/safari/#documentation/UserExperience/Reference/TouchEventClassReference/TouchEvent/TouchEvent.html
16:35:20 <mbrubeck> wrong link
16:35:24 <ArtB> ... and I have checked in a new version
16:35:27 <mbrubeck> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webevents/2011JanMar/0009.html
16:36:28 <ArtB> DS: want to be flexibile on input devices
16:37:02 <timeless_w7ip> i fully expect each web application to butcher and mishandle various input methods
16:37:09 <Sangwhan_Moon1> q+
16:37:18 <ArtB> DS: to be more explicit, would need to expose device capabilities
16:37:35 <ArtB> ... eg: does this device expose pressure sensitivity
16:37:35 <timeless_w7ip> whereas, providing encouragement for user agents to provide a way for users to express strokes/pressure/whatever
16:37:46 <ArtB> ... does it undertand stylus with rX and rY
16:38:04 <ArtB> ... then it adatation could be done based on feature detection
16:38:10 <timeless_w7ip> if a query by an web application allows a user agent to offer emulation to the user, then that might be ok
16:38:12 <ArtB> ... and not sniffing
16:38:54 <lgombos> shepazu: on the latest draft "readonly attribute boolean metaKey" is still missing
16:39:10 <ArtB> DS: I don't know how to specify that UA may specify these things
16:39:43 <ArtB> ... I can add lang that some features may not be supported and UA may do customizations
16:40:09 <ArtB> JS: think the spec should encourage good behaviours
16:40:19 <ArtB> DS: I would like a concrete example, please
16:40:34 <ArtB> JS: I don't have anything to offer now
16:41:07 <ArtB> DS: I would appreciate it Josh, if you would take this to the list 
16:42:16 <ArtB> RRSAgent, make minutes
16:42:16 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/01/25-webevents-minutes.html ArtB
16:42:38 <mbrubeck> When specifying capabilities like touch radius that are not available to all devices/agents, the spec could say that these attributes could represent other user-cotrolled inputs, at the UA's discrection.
16:43:18 <ArtB> MB: I want to talk about capture
16:43:28 <ArtB> ... eg. which elements receive touch events
16:43:50 <ArtB> ... in WK browsers, element that receives touch event
16:44:05 <ArtB> ... continues to receive events even if the input has moved
16:44:19 <timeless_w7ip> [ matt believes that touchdown targets effectively are able to manage drag events because they continue to get events ]
16:44:33 <ArtB> DS: yes, I believe that is true
16:44:43 <ArtB> MB: this affects touch enter and leave events
16:45:07 <ArtB> ... if have two simutaneous touch events on different elements, then which one gets event first?
16:45:20 <ArtB> DS: wouldn't you throw 2 events?
16:45:20 <timeless_w7ip> s/simutaneous/simultaneous/
16:45:30 <ArtB> MB: or have one event with a list
16:45:42 <ArtB> DS: I would expect 2 diff events
16:46:07 <ArtB> ... and each event to have both touch points
16:46:21 <Sangwhan_Moon1> s/cotrolled/controlled/
16:46:25 <ArtB> ... target touches get one touch point
16:46:52 <ArtB> ... but in this case there would be two events each with 2 change events and 1 target touches
16:48:05 <shepazu> s/2 change events and 1 target touches/2 touches items, 2 changedTouches items, and 1targetTouches item/
16:48:19 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/01/25-webevents-minutes.html timeless_w7ip
16:48:36 <timeless_w7ip> s/1target/1 target/
16:48:52 <ArtB> MB: regarding capture, think we need to review some existing impls
16:48:57 <ArtB> ... re touch/cancel event
16:49:05 <ArtB> ... the ED defines 1 narrow case
16:49:16 <ArtB> ... would prefer to make that more impl defined
16:49:37 <ArtB> ... if tracking stops before end, should be able to cancel
16:49:50 <ArtB> DS: I'd like to define as many as we can
16:50:16 <ArtB> ... e.g. must fire when X happens and may fire an event at other times ...
16:50:26 <ArtB> DS: re simuntaneous touches
16:50:41 <ArtB> ... do you think it would be useful to add a timestamp to each touch point?
16:50:49 <ArtB> ... or, would that be useless overhead?
16:50:54 <timeless_w7ip> s/simuntaneous/simultaneous/
16:51:13 <ArtB> ... May want to go thru a list to see when different touches happened
16:51:19 <timeless_w7ip> i'm pretty sure some dom events typically do have timestamps
16:51:24 <timeless_w7ip> so yes, i think it's vaguely useful
16:51:36 <ArtB> MB: can't they track that info by watching touch up and down events?
16:51:38 <ArtB> DS: yes
16:51:49 <ArtB> MB: so, that would just be for convenience?
16:51:53 <ArtB> DS: yes
16:52:08 <ArtB> MB: ok, so I have no opinion
16:52:18 <timeless_w7ip> oh. this is to the touch point as opposed to the touch event? if the event contains the other, then i guess it seems superfluous..
16:52:30 <ArtB> SM: preventing default behaviour from the UA
16:52:55 <ArtB> DS: I haven't gotten around to that yet
16:53:04 <ArtB> ... will try to get something into the spec before next call
16:53:15 <ArtB> DS: another question - regarding pressure ....
16:53:34 <ArtB> ... what units should we use?
16:53:39 <timeless_w7ip> pressure is sometimes from 0..1
16:53:41 <ArtB> ... a scale of 1 to 10
16:53:47 <ArtB> ... an unbounded float
16:53:55 <ArtB> ... should it be relative?
16:54:13 <ArtB> SM: most analog devices use 0 to 1
16:54:32 <ArtB> DS: could be boolean :)
16:54:53 <timeless_w7ip> x11 exposes pressure
16:54:59 <ArtB> SM: so far I haven't seen a platform that propagates pressue down to the app
16:55:00 <timeless_w7ip> and Qt iirc exposes it
16:55:19 <timeless_w7ip> you can get pressure from one of the major windows touchpad vendors if you talk to it
16:55:20 <ArtB> DS: some support exists; can do it with flash
16:55:35 <timeless_w7ip> (synaptics)
16:56:10 <timeless_w7ip> http://docs.huihoo.com/qt/4.3/widgets-tablet-tabletcanvas-cpp.html is an example of a pressure aware Qt app fwiw
16:56:11 <ArtB> AB: any other urgent questions? We have about 5 mins left
16:56:29 <ArtB> ... anything else Doug?
16:56:50 <ArtB> DS: I will probably look at InkML spec for related stuff
16:57:02 <ArtB> Topic: Any Other Business
16:57:04 <timeless_w7ip> http://doc.trolltech.com/4.5/qtabletevent.html#pressure uses 0..1 fwiw
16:57:17 <ArtB> AB: naturally, we want technical discussions to continue on the list
16:57:24 <ArtB> AB: what about a call next week?
16:57:27 <shepazu> http://www.w3.org/TR/InkML/
16:57:31 <ArtB> DS: I do intend to update the spec
16:57:41 <mbrubeck> if there were any platforms that use unbounded floats for pressure, it would be easy for UAs to normalize that to a 0..1 range.
16:57:47 <ArtB> ... and we had a bunch of people that couldn't make it today
16:58:12 <ArtB> AB: tentatively have a call next week and that would be Feb 1
16:58:34 <ArtB> ... and it will be canceled if it there is no clear need to have it
16:58:54 <timeless_w7ip> [ http://forum.chumby.com/viewtopic.php?id=4107 -- XSPRawTouchscreenEvent ]
16:58:54 <ArtB> AB: thanks again Doug!
16:59:08 <ArtB> ... meeting adjourned
16:59:21 <ArtB> RSSAgent, make minutes
16:59:49 <ArtB> RRSAgent, make minutes
16:59:49 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/01/25-webevents-minutes.html ArtB
17:00:15 <mbrubeck> shepazu: I have cloned the spec from hg, and will push patches somewhere for any changes I make.
17:02:13 <shepazu> Sangwhan_Moon1: for the beginning, I think it would be a good idea if we emailed the list about proposed changes first
17:02:16 <ArtB> zakim, bye
17:02:16 <Zakim> Zakim has left #webevents
17:02:26 <shepazu> nope
17:02:28 <Sangwhan_Moon1> shepazu: will do
17:02:30 <ArtB> RRSAgent, bye
17:02:30 <RRSAgent> I see no action items