IRC log of sparql on 2011-01-25

Timestamps are in UTC.

14:58:09 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #sparql
14:58:09 [RRSAgent]
logging to
14:58:11 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, make logs world
14:58:12 [Zakim]
Zakim has joined #sparql
14:58:13 [trackbot]
Zakim, this will be 77277
14:58:14 [Zakim]
ok, trackbot; I see SW_(SPARQL)10:00AM scheduled to start in 2 minutes
14:58:14 [trackbot]
Meeting: SPARQL Working Group Teleconference
14:58:14 [trackbot]
Date: 25 January 2011
14:58:17 [LeeF]
zakim, this will be SPARQL
14:58:18 [Zakim]
ok, LeeF, I see SW_(SPARQL)10:00AM already started
14:58:19 [LeeF]
Chair: LeeF
14:58:21 [LeeF]
Scribe: sandro
14:58:24 [LeeF]
Scribenick: sandro
14:58:28 [MattPerry]
MattPerry has joined #sparql
14:58:30 [LeeF]
14:58:32 [LeeF]
Regrets: Chimezie
14:58:33 [SteveH]
Zakim, who's on the phone?
14:58:40 [Zakim]
On the phone I see pgearon, +44.208.439.aaaa
14:58:51 [SteveH]
Zakim, aaaa is [Garlik]
14:58:56 [Zakim]
+[Garlik]; got it
14:58:58 [Zakim]
+ +1.617.553.aabb
14:59:00 [Zakim]
14:59:03 [LeeF]
zakim, aabb is me
14:59:04 [SteveH]
Zakim, [Garlik] is temporarily me
14:59:07 [AndyS]
zakim, ??P11 is me
14:59:16 [Zakim]
+LeeF; got it
14:59:20 [Zakim]
+SteveH; got it
14:59:20 [NickH]
NickH has joined #sparql
14:59:22 [Zakim]
+AndyS; got it
14:59:28 [Zakim]
+ +
14:59:36 [AndyS]
zakim, who is speaking?
14:59:47 [ocorby]
zakim, aacc is me
14:59:50 [Zakim]
14:59:54 [Zakim]
+ocorby; got it
14:59:56 [Zakim]
AndyS, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: LeeF (73%), AxelPolleres (4%)
14:59:58 [Zakim]
+ +1.603.897.aadd
15:00:03 [Zakim]
15:00:06 [MattPerry]
zakim, aadd is me
15:00:06 [Zakim]
+MattPerry; got it
15:00:09 [Zakim]
15:00:22 [Zakim]
15:00:33 [Zakim]
15:00:33 [NickH]
zakim, ??P19 is me
15:00:35 [Zakim]
+NickH; got it
15:00:47 [cbuilara]
zakim, ??P21 is me
15:00:47 [Zakim]
+cbuilara; got it
15:00:54 [LeeF]
zakim, who's on the phone?
15:00:54 [Zakim]
On the phone I see pgearon, SteveH, LeeF, AndyS, ocorby, AxelPolleres, MattPerry, kasei, sandro, NickH, cbuilara
15:01:16 [bglimm]
Zakim, passcode?
15:01:16 [Zakim]
the conference code is 77277 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+ tel:+44.203.318.0479), bglimm
15:01:20 [sandro]
scribe: sandro
15:01:31 [LeeF]
15:01:36 [LeeF]
topic: Admin
15:01:41 [LeeF]
PROPOSED: Approve minutes at
15:02:17 [sandro]
LeeF: main thing last week was what to do with Bindings spec
15:02:20 [AndyS]
15:02:27 [LeeF]
RESOLVED: Approve minutes at
15:02:31 [sandro]
bglimm, keep trying.
15:02:36 [LeeF]
Next regular meeting: 2011-02-01 @ 15:00 UK / 10:00 EST (scribe: Greg)
15:02:59 [sandro]
bglimm, different countries wont help with this problem.
15:03:35 [sandro]
LeeF: Chime is switching jobs, and wont be able to make telecons, but will still be active in WG via email.
15:03:36 [Zakim]
+ +44.186.528.aaee
15:03:44 [bglimm]
Zakim, +44.186.528.a is me
15:03:51 [bglimm]
Zakim, mute me
15:03:51 [Zakim]
+bglimm; got it
15:04:08 [Zakim]
bglimm should now be muted
15:04:23 [sandro]
LeeF: I'd like to a regular pattern for telecons of status checks, converging on Last Call. Checking on comments, documments, reviews, etc. That's the agenda today and for the next few weeks.
15:05:07 [LeeF]
Regrets: Chimezie, Alex
15:05:35 [NicoM]
NicoM has joined #sparql
15:05:42 [AndyS]
q+ to suggest we ack comments quickly as it's taking time to deal with them
15:06:24 [sandro]
Axel: Anyone willing to take HK2
15:06:28 [AxelPolleres]
HK-2 on update ...
15:06:46 [sandro]
LeeF: should be an Update editor. Paul?
15:06:57 [sandro]
Paul: I'll give it a try
15:06:59 [Zakim]
15:07:02 [LeeF]
ack AndyS
15:07:02 [Zakim]
AndyS, you wanted to suggest we ack comments quickly as it's taking time to deal with them
15:07:08 [pgearon]
argh. back in a moment.....
15:07:41 [Zakim]
15:07:46 [sandro]
(should I record this as an action? Lee: no, we'll just use the wiki page.)
15:09:16 [sandro]
sandro: it's possible to automate the "please wait, we're working on it"
15:09:25 [sandro]
lee: I don't mind confirming them by hand.
15:09:47 [sandro]
lee: let's let all outstanding commenters know they haven't been forgotten, and do it for the future within a few days.
15:09:51 [sandro]
(sounds great)
15:09:58 [LeeF]
ACTION: Lee to let commenters with open comments know that they're not forgotten
15:09:58 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-378 - Let commenters with open comments know that they're not forgotten [on Lee Feigenbaum - due 2011-02-01].
15:12:42 [sandro]
AndyS: I could use help responding to comments on json document
15:12:44 [sandro]
15:12:51 [LeeF]
ack sandro
15:13:22 [sandro]
sandro: did you mean "substantive" in the sense of "big" or "changes to format" ?
15:13:35 [pgearon]
15:13:51 [sandro]
lee: I don't think the WG was looking for changes to format.
15:14:11 [sandro]
lee: same comments as before -- json format is kinda too verbose since it's XML-inspired.
15:14:20 [sandro]
sandro: ah, okay.
15:14:21 [LeeF]
ack pgearon
15:14:34 [sandro]
lee: not so much "it's broken" as "it would be nice if..."
15:14:51 [sandro]
paul: I dont want to see the json format change, but the document is pretty much unacceptable in its current format.
15:15:10 [sandro]
paul: I think Richard (cygri) and I agree on the comments
15:15:20 [sandro]
lee: it just needs a few hours of wordsmithing.
15:15:48 [sandro]
lee: if someone wants to help Andy, that'd be great. query is more urgent, though.
15:15:55 [AndyS]
I'll send "thx for the comments" messages
15:16:13 [sandro]
axel: one comment on Uniform HTTP protocol
15:16:20 [sandro]
axel: (http delete)
15:16:41 [sandro]
axel: two things on uniqueness of blank nodes, and not-exists vs minus.
15:16:46 [sandro]
axel: I can draft answers.
15:17:08 [sandro]
axel: but someone else please handle the HTTP Delete one.
15:17:16 [sandro]
lee: We'll ask Chime to do that one.
15:17:31 [LeeF]
ACTION: Lee to ask Chimezie to look at KK-6 and GR-3
15:17:31 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-379 - Ask Chimezie to look at KK-6 and GR-3 [on Lee Feigenbaum - due 2011-02-01].
15:17:46 [LeeF]
topic: Last Call Status
15:17:56 [LeeF]
15:18:30 [sandro]
Lee: Service Description has two reviews, responded to, reaching convergence. In very good shape.
15:18:47 [sandro]
greg: a few bits waiting on other docs, or responses from people.
15:18:49 [bglimm]
Zakim, unmute me
15:18:49 [Zakim]
bglimm should no longer be muted
15:19:04 [sandro]
LeeF: Entailment, waiting for reviews from folks who agreed to do it.
15:19:13 [MattPerry]
15:19:27 [bglimm]
Zakim, mute me
15:19:27 [Zakim]
bglimm should now be muted
15:19:34 [sandro]
LeeF: Query -- plenty of references about editing continuing
15:19:50 [sandro]
Lee: Any idea when it will be ready to review
15:20:12 [sandro]
Steve: I'm hoping some time this week (unintelligible)
15:20:33 [sandro]
Andy: three things to due. head-to-tail edit to get references right, and go through formal section to check it.
15:20:41 [sandro]
Lee: some time next week?
15:20:47 [sandro]
Andy: I can't promise times.
15:21:44 [sandro]
Lee: Update?
15:22:07 [sandro]
Paul: all recent things mentioned about Update have been done. But I wouldnt say the document is complete.
15:22:49 [sandro]
Lee: need conversation with Alex and you (Paul). if you have nothing on todo list, then we should have it reviewed.
15:23:30 [SteveH]
15:23:46 [LeeF]
ack SteveH
15:24:06 [sandro]
SteveH: What about Update vs Query vs other stuff on left side of equals? update= ?
15:24:20 [sandro]
lee: as I recall, we settled on update= I think.
15:24:35 [kasei]
15:24:42 [LeeF]
ack kasei
15:24:50 [pgearon]
15:25:12 [sandro]
greg: We agreed you can have multiple operations, including a query. So maybe it should be: request=
15:25:26 [AndyS]
?? last one is a query? I
15:25:33 [sandro]
SteveH: Did we really say the last thing might be a query??
15:25:37 [sandro]
Lee: news to me, too!
15:26:04 [LeeF]
ack pgearon
15:26:05 [sandro]
greg: I thought in transactionality, we said the last thing was you could pull data out, even if it's not really atomic.
15:26:19 [sandro]
paul: We were talking about it, but I thought we decided against it.
15:26:26 [sandro]
paul: it's not in Update now
15:26:30 [sandro]
greg: Okay.
15:27:02 [sandro]
paul: Andy commented on Update section 3.1.2 editors note, about graph triples with bnodes. That's still to be discussed.....
15:27:31 [sandro]
lee: please send msg to mailing list
15:27:47 [Zakim]
15:27:49 [LeeF]
update=<update request>
15:27:54 [LeeF]
request=<update request>
15:27:58 [sandro]
lee: straw poll on update= vs request=
15:28:10 [NickH]
15:28:23 [NickH]
15:28:28 [sandro]
15:28:29 [cbuilara]
15:28:34 [SteveH]
15:28:35 [MattPerry]
15:28:36 [AxelPolleres]
15:28:38 [kasei]
15:28:42 [ocorby]
15:28:43 [AndyS]
15:28:52 [Zakim]
15:28:57 [Zakim]
15:29:23 [AndyS]
(update= is OK - not a strong feeling)
15:29:31 [AxelPolleres]
15:29:37 [LeeF]
ack AxelPolleres
15:29:56 [bglimm]
undecided, tendency to update
15:29:57 [sandro]
axel: I kind of like query= [query doc] update= [update doc]
15:30:06 [kasei]
15:30:10 [LeeF]
ack kasei
15:30:14 [sandro]
lee: update request === request=
15:30:47 [sandro]
greg: because it's form encoding, with a single form....
15:30:57 [sandro]
greg: would request= accept a query?
15:31:12 [SteveH]
...we could support both update=(update) request=(either)
15:31:29 [Zakim]
+ +34.92.38.aaff
15:31:46 [ocorby]
zakim, aaff is me
15:31:46 [Zakim]
+ocorby; got it
15:32:34 [AndyS]
I see that protocol uses "request" more than I remember so I'll go with update= ["request=" either is worrying]
15:32:48 [sandro]
lee: could be query=queries, update=updates, request=anything
15:33:20 [AndyS]
15:33:25 [LeeF]
ack AndyS
15:33:59 [sandro]
AndyS: I'm not keen on a std way of doing both. I want to keep them as separate as possible. Worried about injection attacks, etc.
15:34:08 [sandro]
lee: what about Greg's web form?
15:34:31 [sandro]
AndyS: A processor can offer both at the same endpoint. I don't want to not know until parsing.
15:34:45 [SteveH]
I also have AndyS's concerns
15:35:05 [sandro]
LeeF: Even if a processor offers both, that doesn't solve the HTML form use case.
15:35:32 [sandro]
AndyS: A form is going to do different things on the results anyway, so it'll need to look at the text anyway.
15:35:43 [SteveH]'s actually very hard to get it right, but eay to hack
15:35:43 [kasei]
that still will require javascript client-side, right?
15:36:15 [LeeF]
straw poll: update=, request=<update only>, request=<either>
15:36:20 [sandro]
or server side, kasei, at something between the client and sparql.
15:36:30 [sandro]
15:36:37 [SteveH]
15:36:40 [MattPerry]
15:36:41 [bglimm]
15:36:43 [NickH]
15:36:44 [AndyS]
update= or request=update.
15:36:49 [AxelPolleres]
update=, or request=<update only>, no preference between those two
15:36:57 [pgearon]
15:37:08 [kasei]
happy to support an update-only term, but want one that supports both.
15:37:56 [LeeF]
ISSUE: Does the SPARQL Protocol need a single form parameter that can take either a query string or an update request string?
15:37:56 [trackbot]
Created ISSUE-65 - Does the SPARQL Protocol need a single form parameter that can take either a query string or an update request string? ; please complete additional details at .
15:38:12 [SteveH]
can we resolve this one?
15:38:59 [LeeF]
PROPOSED: SPARQL Protocol uses the form parameter name "update" for update requests
15:39:21 [SteveH]
15:39:28 [AxelPolleres]
15:39:34 [NickH]
15:39:36 [LeeF]
RESOLVED: SPARQL Protocol uses the form parameter name "update" for update requests
15:40:08 [sandro]
Lee: Uniform HTTP Protocol
15:40:31 [sandro]
lee: chime just sent a summary of changes. I need to check with him to see if there are any open issues. I don't think the thread is totally up to date.
15:40:44 [sandro]
lee: I think it's nearly ready for review, but I'll check with Chime
15:40:52 [sandro]
lee: we DO need to decide on name for document.
15:41:27 [LeeF]
15:41:31 [sandro]
sandro: no process/techincal problems.
15:42:57 [sandro]
Lee: note's Chime: My personal preference is 12 and 6
15:43:19 [sandro]
lee: "dataset" seems a little confusing since operations deal mostly with graphs.
15:43:44 [sandro]
sandro: what was the response to that?
15:44:05 [sandro]
lee: while the protocol deals with indiv graphs, they're part of a dataset.
15:44:26 [sandro]
lee: when you use graph= you're referencing a graph withing a dataset.
15:44:26 [AndyS]
good summary.
15:45:45 [sandro]
sandro: if we take "SPARQL 1.1" out, then what about other document titles?
15:45:47 [SteveH]
?graph= is SPARQL-y
15:45:56 [sandro]
Lee: Well, there's no real SPARQL going over the wire here.
15:46:15 [AxelPolleres]
would "RESTful RDF Dataset Protocol" be accepted as yet another alternative?
15:46:32 [sandro]
Or "RDF Dataset Protocol" ?
15:46:51 [NickH]
RESTful isn't offical terminology?
15:47:29 [sandro]
Lee: strawpoll, type in preference
15:47:30 [kasei]
15:47:33 [NickH]
15:47:43 [SteveH]
1,4,5 <- all ok
15:47:50 [AndyS]
6 then 4 or 3
15:47:58 [ocorby]
15:48:02 [LeeF]
1,4,5 (i'm with Steve) - analogoous without SPARQL1.1 ok with me too
15:48:05 [cbuilara]
6 or 12
15:48:06 [bglimm]
15:48:11 [sandro]
15:48:14 [AxelPolleres]
8,2, 12,6
15:48:23 [AxelPolleres]
(in that order)
15:48:24 [MattPerry]
15:48:47 [pgearon]
12, 6
15:49:47 [SteveH]
strawpoll on graph/dataset?
15:49:53 [LeeF]
Include SPARQL 1.1 in the name or not?
15:49:58 [SteveH]
15:49:59 [bglimm]
15:49:59 [kasei]
15:50:02 [ocorby]
15:50:02 [MattPerry]
15:50:03 [LeeF]
15:50:03 [sandro]
15:50:05 [pgearon]
15:50:07 [AxelPolleres]
15:50:07 [cbuilara]
15:50:08 [NickH]
15:50:14 [AndyS]
15:50:39 [LeeF]
given that we want to include SPARQL 1.1 branding, please indicate preference of names 1-6
15:50:41 [SteveH]
if we have SPARQL 1.1 RDF is a bit redundant
15:50:48 [pgearon]
6, 4
15:50:54 [LeeF]
15:50:55 [SteveH]
15:50:56 [bglimm]
15:50:59 [ocorby]
15:50:59 [AxelPolleres]
15:51:02 [cbuilara]
15:51:02 [AndyS]
15:51:02 [kasei]
15:51:05 [NickH]
15:51:06 [MattPerry]
15:51:12 [sandro]
15:51:13 [AndyS]
15:51:14 [sandro]
15:51:31 [LeeF]
1 - 4 mentions
15:51:36 [LeeF]
2 - 1 mention
15:51:41 [LeeF]
3 - 2 mentions
15:51:47 [LeeF]
4 - 5 mentions
15:51:48 [sandro]
(really 0, I think. I cant decide)
15:51:52 [LeeF]
5 - 3 mentions
15:52:00 [LeeF]
6 - 6 mentions
15:52:54 [SteveH]
15:52:55 [sandro]
Lee: only 4 and 6: pick one
15:52:56 [kasei]
15:52:57 [LeeF]
between 6 and 4 which would you prefer?
15:53:01 [LeeF]
15:53:05 [bglimm]
15:53:07 [sandro]
15:53:25 [pgearon]
15:53:26 [MattPerry]
15:53:26 [cbuilara]
15:53:27 [sandro]
errr, please change my 4 to a 6, sorry.
15:53:33 [AxelPolleres]
15:53:36 [ocorby]
15:53:42 [NickH]
15:53:57 [AndyS]
64 but really neutral - agreement more important
15:54:27 [sandro]
sandro: plus count Chime as a 6.
15:54:49 [SteveH]
HTTP is probably redundant
15:54:53 [SteveH]
but other than that it's fine
15:55:06 [AxelPolleres]
http is in the short name :-)
15:55:08 [sandro]
Yeah, I figure people will not bother to say "HTTP"
15:55:11 [LeeF]
SPARQL 1.1 RDF Dataset HTTP Protocol
15:55:17 [LeeF]
SPARQL 1.1 RDF Dataset Protocol
15:55:39 [SteveH]
RDF is also a bit redundant, but lets not go there :)
15:55:40 [NickH]
I think the HTTP bit is important
15:55:56 [AndyS]
short name has http in it.
15:56:07 [AndyS]
15:56:25 [LeeF]
strawpoll: include "HTTP" or not?
15:56:33 [NickH]
15:56:37 [sandro]
15:56:39 [MattPerry]
15:56:39 [SteveH]
no, but 0.5
15:56:40 [AndyS]
15:56:44 [cbuilara]
15:56:45 [kasei]
15:56:49 [pgearon]
15:56:56 [LeeF]
15:57:00 [bglimm]
15:57:11 [ocorby]
15:57:13 [AxelPolleres]
if we take out http, then we definitly have to revisit the short name
15:57:28 [SteveH]
the short name is odd whatever
15:58:03 [LeeF]
PROPOSED: Rename "SPARQL 1.1 Uniform HTTP Protocol for Managing RDF Graphs" to "SPARQL 1.1 RDF Dataset HTTP Protocol"
15:58:11 [kasei]
15:58:24 [LeeF]
RESOLVED: Rename "SPARQL 1.1 Uniform HTTP Protocol for Managing RDF Graphs" to "SPARQL 1.1 RDF Dataset HTTP Protocol"
16:00:05 [kasei]
so are the current bind08.srx results correct?
16:00:47 [kasei]
ah, ok. then i don't understand the issue. need to read more about it...
16:00:54 [AndyS]
Would be "cp bind-05.srx bind08.srx"
16:01:08 [sandro]
lee: Federated Query. Carlos?
16:01:31 [sandro]
16:01:36 [bglimm]
Zakim, unmute me
16:01:38 [AndyS]
BINDINGS in rq25 now. Carlos - hope it's not too short.
16:01:40 [SteveH]
16:01:45 [MattPerry]
16:01:52 [bglimm]
16:01:54 [AxelPolleres]
bye, thanks.
16:01:57 [NicoM]
16:01:58 [cbuilara]
I will chek it Andy
16:02:13 [AndyS]
Carlos - thanks
16:02:15 [AxelPolleres]
AxelPolleres has left #sparql
16:02:43 [Zakim]
bglimm should no longer be muted
16:02:53 [Zakim]
16:02:55 [Zakim]
16:03:05 [Zakim]
16:03:07 [Zakim]
16:03:11 [Zakim]
16:03:13 [Zakim]
16:03:17 [Zakim]
16:03:26 [Zakim]
16:03:28 [Zakim]
16:03:30 [Zakim]
16:03:34 [Zakim]
16:20:25 [SteveH]
LeeF, do we have world readable logs of this IRC session?
16:30:38 [LeeF]
RRSAgent, make logs world
16:30:41 [LeeF]
now we do :)
16:30:54 [LeeF]
RRSAgent, pointer?
16:30:54 [RRSAgent]
16:31:32 [SteveH]
thanks Lee
16:35:01 [Zakim]
disconnecting the lone participant, kasei, in SW_(SPARQL)10:00AM
16:35:06 [Zakim]
SW_(SPARQL)10:00AM has ended
16:35:07 [Zakim]
Attendees were pgearon, +44.208.439.aaaa, +1.617.553.aabb, LeeF, SteveH, AndyS, +, AxelPolleres, ocorby, +1.603.897.aadd, kasei, MattPerry, sandro, NickH, cbuilara,
16:35:10 [Zakim]
... +44.186.528.aaee, bglimm, [Garlik], +34.92.38.aaff
18:30:20 [Zakim]
Zakim has left #sparql
18:56:12 [SteveH]
SteveH has joined #sparql