14:57:50 RRSAgent has joined #html-xml
14:57:51 logging to http://www.w3.org/2011/01/25-html-xml-irc
14:57:58 Zakim has joined #html-xml
14:58:02 noah has joined #html-xml
14:58:07 Meeting: HTML/XML Task Force
14:58:08 Date: 25 January 2011
14:58:11 Agenda: http://www.w3.org/2010/html-xml/2011/01/25-agenda
14:58:13 Meeting: 5
14:58:15 Chair: Norm
14:58:17 Scribe: Norm
14:58:17 Other meeting canceled, I will be on the call after all. Sorry, no wiki entry yet.
14:58:18 ScribeNick: Norm
14:58:29 zakim, list conferences
14:58:34 I see Team_(wf)14:08Z, VB_VBWG()10:00AM, Team_(RevCadence)9:00AM, SW_(SPARQL)10:00AM, T&S_XMLSEC()10:00AM, Team_(t-and-s)13:58Z active
14:58:37 also scheduled at this time are WAI_PFWG(HTML TF)9:00AM, IA_Team()10:00AM, INC_SSN()9:00AM, MWI_BPWG()9:30AM, MM_MMI(ITesting)9:00AM, XML_(TAG TF)10:00AM, TAG_(AWWSW)9:00AM,
14:58:43 zakim, this will be xml_tag
14:58:44 ... Team_(MEET)10:00AM
14:58:50 I do not see a conference matching that name scheduled within the next hour, Norm
14:58:58 zakim, this will be xml_(tag tf)
14:59:08 ok, Norm; I see XML_(TAG TF)10:00AM scheduled to start in 2 minutes
15:00:23 XML_(TAG TF)10:00AM has now started
15:00:23 +Noah_Mendelsohn
15:01:53 Zakim, passcode
15:01:53 I don't understand 'passcode', hsivonen
15:02:00 Zakim, passcode?
15:02:01 the conference code is 9483 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.26.46.79.03 tel:+44.203.318.0479), anne
15:02:29 +??P30
15:02:30 -??P30
15:02:30 +??P30
15:02:34 +??P24
15:02:41 Zakim, ??P24 is me
15:02:41 +anne; got it
15:03:04 Zakim, ??P30 is me
15:03:04 +hsivonen; got it
15:03:06 Zakim, mute anne
15:03:07 anne should now be muted
15:03:13 Yes, hear you
15:03:16 oh
15:03:24 zakim, who is talking?
15:03:27 so then henri is me and me is henri :)
15:03:29 + +1.413.624.aaaa
15:03:38 noah, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: 3 (19%), hsivonen (35%)
15:03:39 Zakim, unmute anne
15:03:40 zakim, aaaa is Norm
15:03:42 anne should no longer be muted
15:03:48 +Norm; got it
15:03:48 zakim, who's on the phone?
15:03:56 anne, I have a mute button here, so do we need to switch names?
15:03:58 On the phone I see Noah_Mendelsohn, hsivonen, anne, Norm
15:04:15 hsivonen, I have that too so no problem I guess
15:04:21 Present: Noah, Henri, Anne, Norm
15:04:46 +Yves
15:05:53 +Mike_Champion
15:06:41 zakim, who's talking?
15:06:52 Norm, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: Mike_Champion (69%), Norm (10%)
15:07:32 +TimBL
15:07:57 +John_Cowan
15:08:02 zakim, who's on the phone?
15:08:02 On the phone I see Noah_Mendelsohn, hsivonen, anne, Norm, Yves, Mike_Champion, TimBL, John_Cowan
15:08:30 jcowan has joined #html-xml
15:08:31 Present: Noah, Henri, Anne, Norm, Yves, MChampion, TimBL, John
15:08:50 Topic: Accept this agenda?
15:08:50 http://www.w3.org/2010/html-xml/2011/01/25-agenda
15:09:00 Accepted.
15:09:04 Topic: Accept minutes from the previous meeting?
15:09:04 -> http://www.w3.org/2010/html-xml/2011/01/18-minutes
15:09:12 Accepted.
15:09:45 Topic: Next meeting 1 Feb 2011
15:10:03 None heard.
15:10:27 Topic: Review wiki use cases
15:10:33 -> http://esw.w3.org/HTML_XML_Use_Cases
15:10:58 Norm: First use cases is 01: http://esw.w3.org/HTML_XML_Use_Case_01
15:11:28 Henri summarizes the use case.
15:12:15 Norm: remind me at the end please...I may have another use case to discuss
15:13:17 Norm: Does anyone think that Henri has failed to capture the use case or overlooked a solution that was discussed?
15:13:56 John: I think he underrates polyglot markup; it's true that polyglot markup doesn't let you handle arbitrary HTML, but it does let you handle non-arbitrary HTML.
15:14:47 Norm: Second use case is 02: http://esw.w3.org/HTML_XML_Use_Case_02
15:14:54 MChampion summarizes the use case.
15:15:29 q+ to ask suggest a clarification
15:16:28 q+ to ask if Henri's solution to 01 is possibly applicable here
15:17:08 q+
15:18:22 ack noah
15:18:22 noah, you wanted to ask suggest a clarification
15:18:54 Noah: When I read the wiki, my first reaction was "do you mean someone has content that they probably thought of as XHTML and they want to consume that or do you mean something like a purchase order".
15:18:59 Mike: I think it was probably the PO
15:19:05 the wiki page says "non-XHTML"
15:19:13 Noah: Right. I think that was the case and the page could be clarified.
15:20:11 Noah: Sophisticated users may have some idea that handing arbitrary XML to HTML5 will produce something that might be useful.
15:20:25 Mike: I think the vast majority of users don't have a clear sense of what's in HTML
15:20:38 Noah: All I was suggesting that clarifying the page would be better.
15:21:03 Mike: Right. I can do that. I thought it was about arbitrary stuff with angle brackets. Either they don't know or don't care about the tag set.
15:21:36 Mike; What were you thinking of Norm?
15:21:53 Norm: I was thinking of DocBook or Chemical Markup Language or a Purchase Order. Nothing vaguely like XHTML.
15:22:01 domel has joined #html-xml
15:22:30 ACTION: Mike to update the wiki to clarify that point.
15:22:33 q?
15:23:34 domel has left #html-xml
15:24:24 -TimBL
15:24:29 Norm: I wondered if Henri's solution to use case 01 would be applicable. If you had an XML parser that produced an event stream that could be read by an HTML tool and produced (let's say no namespaces) elements named LINK with content etc. Would that just work?
15:24:38 John: I think that sounds like use case 05
15:25:10 Norm: Is closing link elements and such only a parse time thing
15:25:25 Henri: It's only parse time, but it depends on the interface to the tool.
15:25:45 ...If the tool you have has a text or byte-oriented interface so that you have to give it a text/html document, then you can't do it.
15:26:10 ...The internals of an HTML5 tool would be like the internals of an XML tool. In the browser for example, the DOM is namespace-aware.
15:26:24 ...If you define the toolchain as stuff that happens after parsing and you can give a DOM to it, then there's no problem
15:27:10 Henri: But I disagree with the wiki page where it says there's no parsing problem. It's not just about namespaces, there's also the void elements and other elements that have specific processing associated with them. And the empty element syntax in XML. There's much more to the parsing algorithm than you might expect.
15:28:06 ...If the use case is something like offline rendering, and you define the conversion broadly enough, then it might work, but if you want to some trivial serialization of the XML and then parse that, then there's more problems than what the wiki page says.
15:28:14 Mike: What edit would you suggest?
15:28:25 ...Or do you think the use case is pointless?
15:28:39 Zakim, who is making noise?
15:28:50 anne, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: Mike_Champion (51%)
15:28:55 Henri: I'd go for the lower expectations use case unless you're willing to make very broad conversions.
15:29:26 s/use case/solution/
15:29:31 q?
15:29:34 ack Norm
15:29:34 Norm, you wanted to ask if Henri's solution to 01 is possibly applicable here
15:29:41 q-
15:29:42 ack hsivonen
15:30:04 John: Are there HTML tools outside the browser that don't deal in HTML syntax?
15:30:19 Henri: The validator.nu validator is I guess an HTML5 tool, but it's also an XHTML5 tool.
15:30:27 John: We know some things do both.
15:30:40 Henri: So far, I don't think there are any HTML tools only that are only HTML5 aware and not XHTML aware.
15:31:02 John: And I expect they'd all deal in syntax. Like an HTML editor that reads syntax and writes syntax.
15:31:16 ...What does it mean to have a tool that deals in a DOM?
15:31:23 Henri: I think Saxon is one such example.
15:31:39 BlueGriffon
15:31:42 (I think)
15:31:45 (based on Gecko)
15:31:47 Anne: There are HTML editors that take a DOM as well, like BlueGriffon (I think)
15:32:39 (BlueGriffon operates on a DOM, but I don't know if you can give it one except by letting it parser HTML or XML)
15:32:46 http://esw.w3.org/HTML_XML_Use_Case_03
15:32:47 s/parser/parse/
15:32:50 Norm: Next use case is 03
15:33:58 Noah checks in his text and the TF reads for five minutes.
15:34:39 Zakim, mute Mike
15:34:39 Mike_Champion should now be muted
15:34:50 Zakim, unmute Mike
15:34:50 Mike_Champion should no longer be muted
15:35:07 Henri: When it says that the HTML might be generated by a tool over which the user has no control, in that case, you might also apply an HTML parser to turn that content into XHTML and then you're back to the first bullet point.
15:35:37 Noah: I think I agree, under solutions there's a third one: take the HTML, parse it, reserialize as XHTML, and the process that.
15:35:45 Not everyone can be on IRC due to corproate restrictions.
15:36:01 Henri: At the point where you're generating the larger XML file, you can serialize to XHTML.
15:36:10 jcowan, o_O
15:36:22 Noah: I understand; I'll have to think about how to split that across the problem statement and the solution.
15:36:26 s/the solution/a solution/
15:36:43 Noah describes how he might edit the page to general agreement.
15:37:13 Norm: Anyone think the problem is mistated or that solutions we discussed were overlooked.
15:37:23 Anne: This looks complete to me.
15:37:37 ...I'm not sure this is a problem that needs any more solution than we already have.
15:37:58 Norm: Any further discussion?
15:38:01 None heard.
15:38:13 Norm: The next use case is 04: http://esw.w3.org/HTML_XML_Use_Case_04
15:38:25 s/case is 03/case is 03: http://esw.w3.org/HTML_XML_Use_Case_03/
15:38:47 John summarizes
15:39:14 John: Kurt put a bunch of stuff in the discussion section that I haven't looked at yet.
15:39:54 I would find it helpful to have this wiki page using the separate problem-statement/solution-statement style that the other pages use.
15:42:12 Norm: Thank you. As Noah suggests, would you be willing to rework the page to have problem statement/solution as the other pages do?
15:42:41 John: I'll try; it's a busy week for me.
15:43:23 Norm: Does anyone think this fails to capture the problem or the solutions that were discussed?
15:43:35 Noah: I'm having trouble grokking it in this form, but I'll work through it.
15:43:56 Henri: I think that what John wrote captures the discussion pretty well; what Kurt added goes into new areas that weren't discussed very much.
15:45:16 Norm: John, when you look at Kurt's discussion, will you please let us know if find anything that's genuinely new?
15:45:18 John: Yes.
15:45:26 Noah: I was hoping for that level of exposition on the original page.
15:46:43 Norm, you are aware of srcdoc, right?
15:47:02 hsivonen, yes and I *hate* it with a firey passion.
15:47:31 (My time is up. Gotta go. Regrets.)
15:47:40 bye hsivonen
15:47:45 -anne
15:47:58 Some discussion of the nature of markup. Structured attributes, order, anonymity, etc.
15:48:35 Norm: Next is 05: http://esw.w3.org/HTML_XML_Use_Case_05
15:48:38 I would still like to talk about adding a use case -- maybe in email if we're out of time.
15:48:38 Anne summarizes.
15:49:21 John; I believe it's true however that concatenation doesn't work with 100% reliability for HTML either.
15:49:26 Anne: True, it's 95% or so.
15:49:46 John: So you end up with something that's more complex than XML conceptually becuase you have all of XML plus all the recovery strategy.
15:49:50 Anne: That makes the parser simpler...
15:49:59 John: I didn't say the parser, I mean it makes the language more complicated.
15:51:16 Noah: Getting into XML5 under string concatenation seems a bit backwards.
15:52:20 ...I think the use case is that you think you have WF XML, you want to have WF XML, but sometimes you blow it. You want to serve XML5 because you want error handling if you get it wrong. XML without draconian error handling.
15:52:46 ...For me, that's the use case for XML5. Let's gently move the world towards better markup.
15:52:47 ("better" imo)
15:53:14 ...Half the time when you make a mistake, it's a mistake you want to fix.
15:53:21 I am not sure where this is going? Is Noah volunteering for writing up another use case?
15:54:39 Norm: I think that's a little different than 05, Noah, would you be willing to write that up as an 07 use case?
15:54:47 Noah: Yes, of course. I don't think the overlap is a problem.
15:55:02 ACTION: Noah to write up the use case for XML+error recover as Use Case 07.
15:56:06 John: Having spent the last week writing a MicroXML parser, I had to work a lot harder than if I was going to be draconian. I had to always be in a recoverable place.
15:56:43 Anne: I did it too and I didn't think it was that hard. It's actually simpler because XML has a lot of places where you have to check the character ranges and with recover you don't have to do that.
15:57:05 John: I was talking about much more complex recoveries; for example, when you get a not well formed comment, what do you do?
15:57:31 Some discussion about how hard the recovery problem is.
15:57:46 mkay
15:58:01 if they are both recovery they both deal with same problem I'd think
15:58:03 but maybe not
15:58:16 seems somewhat independent from code
15:58:44 Norm: Ok, next week we'll look at 6 and 7 and any others that have changed significantly. Then I think we need to consider next steps. Are there any?
15:58:52 Topic: Any other business?
15:58:55 None heard.
15:58:58 -Mike_Champion
15:58:59 Adjourned.
15:59:22 -John_Cowan
15:59:22 rrsagent, set logs world visible
15:59:28 rrsagent, draft minutes
15:59:28 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/01/25-html-xml-minutes.html Norm
15:59:31 -Norm
15:59:32 -hsivonen
15:59:34 -Yves
15:59:52 -Noah_Mendelsohn
15:59:56 XML_(TAG TF)10:00AM has ended
16:00:00 Attendees were Noah_Mendelsohn, anne, hsivonen, +1.413.624.aaaa, Norm, Yves, Mike_Champion, TimBL, John_Cowan
16:05:45 Initial version of http://esw.w3.org/HTML_XML_Use_Case_07 checked in
16:06:36 noah, hey, XML5 is an idea for solution 1 not 2
16:13:41 Umm, the perils of not going back and reading up on it. Sorry, I did this too quickly. Will do my homework on XML5 and fix it. Tnx.
16:14:00 I read about it (and liked it!) a few months ago, but memory fades.
16:14:24 http://annevankesteren.nl/2007/10/xml5
16:14:33 OK, yup. I'll fix it right now.
16:15:09 Done.
16:19:40 thanks
16:29:00 Sure, my mistake. After going back & forth once or twice, I decided that linking your blog entry on XML5 is, for the moment, more useful than linking the shell of the Google project. Feel free to change that if you have better links. Tnx.
16:30:35 hopefully there will be something more canonical at some point
16:31:29 I've yet to set up some kind of trust to keep my blog alive after I die :p
16:31:34 Hey, I'm glad to see you doing this. Getting the community to succeed on a path like this seems a top priority to me -- how practical it will be to deploy in practice I'm not sure.
16:32:28 Yeah, well at least the TAG is agonizing how you can make sure annevankesteren.nl will be yours after you're gone -- as to the content, well that's a different story.
16:35:40 noah has joined #html-xml
16:36:22 noah has joined #html-xml
16:36:29 noah has joined #html-xml
18:00:19 Zakim has left #html-xml
19:53:00 noah_away has joined #html-xml